leica S2 vs. hasselblad H4D-40 vs. IQ140

[fotografz]

I am pretty sure Marc sold his H4D-40 for $11,600 USD.

There are a number of factors that govern resale ... how fast you want to move something, what you paid originally or via an upgrade, how much you earned with it, and how much was written off.

Trust me, I didn't lose much on my H4D/40 if anything at all ... but, (big BUT), my original buying price, plus professional earnings including line-item client daily rental charges for MFD digital capture, and annual write offs made that possible. These mitigating factors are less available to advanced enthusiasts.

In general, these MFD systems do not hold re-sale value for a number of reasons ... those that can afford them in the first place can usually afford to continue trading/upgrading to keep current ... so they are not the ones buying the used stuff. This leaves selling outright to those that can't go new for financial reasons, or simply refuse to pay for new gear like the early adopters and confirmed gear sluts will ... therefore, they expect a relative bargain or they just won't buy at all. This is a generalization and there are exceptions, but not many.

So, I agree ... selecting based strictly on resale value is not always the best approach. Choose wisely going in, and think long term with the objective of living with it to make images.

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

Three words ... application, application, application.

The H and P1 systems are highly versatile, mature systems with the latest usable and important technologies that deliver a huge and diverse application base that allows a photographer to do almost anything they can dream up creatively.

If you don't need any of that ... if you think you'll never tether a camera, never need the 16 bit pushed through in profoto color space to maintain as much integrity of color as possible while processing, if you don't need a wide array of state-of-the-art H, or Schneider, or S AF optics (many or all available with leaf shutters), nor ever need to rent something on location, or think you'll never need a 60 meg, 80 meg, or even a 200 meg upgrade path, and so on ... then there is a choice for you that is very nice, and comparatively affordable. Nothing wrong with that if it meets your application needs now and well into the future.

-Marc

 

[Charles Wood]

Three words ... application, application, application.

-Marc

Exactly!

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

Well, try to make 36" prints from H4D-40 and compare to 645D.

It's obviously that IQ from $20k camera will be better than $11k camera, and $60k camera IQ is better than from $20k one's. Given that person behind the camera knows what he is doing. It's free market in free world, and cameras are valued by IQ they can deliver.

Don't get me wrong, 645D is a great camera for $11k. But H4D-40 is from little different league.

Higher IQ will most certainly need lenses that resolve all those MP's and quite frankly, not many do "in camera", but instead rely on software. Also, the KAF 40000 in the H4D, is the exact same sensor in the 645D, but your right about being in a different league...you can take photographs with the 645D in any weather!

 

[pophoto]

Higher IQ will most certainly need lenses that resolve all those MP's and quite frankly, not many do "in camera", but instead rely on software. Also, the KAF 40000 in the H4D, is the exact same sensor in the 645D, but your right about being in a different league...you can take photographs with the 645D in any weather!

So is that to say you will back this comment professionally with the 645D over a H4D-40?

No, but seriously?

 

[pophoto]

Three words ... application, application, application.

The H and P1 systems are highly versatile, mature systems with the latest usable and important technologies that deliver a huge and diverse application base that allows a photographer to do almost anything they can dream up creatively.

If you don't need any of that ... if you think you'll never tether a camera, never need the 16 bit pushed through in profoto color space to maintain as much integrity of color as possible while processing, if you don't need a wide array of state-of-the-art H, or Schneider, or S AF optics (many or all available with leaf shutters), nor ever need to rent something on location, or think you'll never need a 60 meg, 80 meg, or even a 200 meg upgrade path, and so on ... then there is a choice for you that is very nice, and comparatively affordable. Nothing wrong with that if it meets your application needs now and well into the future.

-Marc

Hi Marc,
Love your photography and lot of what you said makes sense to me. So I have a question specifically for you, so if you may entertain the question below:

I know you have multiple systems because you have said so, and from what you do as far as application, and nowadays I hear you love to take your Porsche (S2) over your Bently (H4D-60). However, in a world where only these two cameras existed and you can only use one, which will it be?

Thanks
Po

PS. Sorry for calling you out

 

[Shashin]

So is that to say you will back this comment professionally with the 645D over a H4D-40?

No, but seriously?

Are you saying as a professional photographer would you chose a Pentax 645D over a H4D-40? Yes.

Now, if you have anything to show where the IQ of these two cameras are different, I would love to see it.

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

So is that to say you will back this comment professionally with the 645D over a H4D-40?

No, but seriously?

If I were given the choice of these two cameras in different settings -

1. Photographing a waterfall while hiking in the rainforest I would choose the 645D for its weather resistance.

2. Photographing the waterfall from a helicopter, I would choose the hasselblad H4D, because it has the ability for virtually vibration free images using the LS lenses.

Both cameras produce great images, but both also have limitations. Again, it's up to the lens to resolve these megapixels, so instead of comparing sensors, i'd be more concerned about the glass.

The Leica S2 probably has the best form factor and lenses designed specifically for this format then any camera to date, plus its weather sealed.

 

[KurtKamka]

Depending on the photography you shoot, it's helpful to additionally consider the apertures that you will most often be choosing to use. Although they are certainly expensive, Leica's S2 lenses perform extremely well wide open. For those MF photographers who shoot a variety of applications beyond stopped down landscapes, they're a pleasure to use. As Marc says, it's all about application.

 

[fotografz]

Hi Marc,
Love your photography and lot of what you said makes sense to me. So I have a question specifically for you, so if you may entertain the question below:

I know you have multiple systems because you have said so, and from what you do as far as application, and nowadays I hear you love to take your Porsche (S2) over your Bently (H4D-60). However, in a world where only these two cameras existed and you can only use one, which will it be?

Thanks
Po

PS. Sorry for calling you out

:ROTFL:

Actually it is not as complex a question as it appears to be.

To make money from, or cover as many different applications possible ... Hasselblad ... or Phase One ... or Leaf. They simply rule the multiple application territory. One may out do the other for certain MFD applications ... but they all can do all of it to one degree or another.

To just have fun, take the camera most anywhere, and make money with some applications, the S2. I simply can't remember having so much fun with a camera since my first M.

If I fully retire from commercial work requiring T/S, mega files, view camera use, etc. ... the H4D will go bye-bye, and so will most of my Sony kit. Leaving the S2 and M9 to enjoy as I amble off into the sunset

That day is actually getting uncomfortably close. Thanks for reminding me ... !!!!

-Marc

 

[pophoto]

:ROTFL:

Actually it is not as complex a question as it appears to be.

To make money from, or cover as many different applications possible ... Hasselblad ... or Phase One ... or Leaf. They simply rule the multiple application territory. One may out do the other for certain MFD applications ... but they all can do all of it to one degree or another.

To just have fun, take the camera most anywhere, and make money with some applications, the S2. I simply can't remember having so much fun with a camera since my first M.

If I fully retire from commercial work requiring T/S, mega files, view camera use, etc. ... the H4D will go bye-bye, and so will most of my Sony kit. Leaving the S2 and M9 to enjoy as I amble off into the sunset

That day is actually getting uncomfortably close. Thanks for reminding me ... !!!!

-Marc

Hahaha.... Thank you Marc for your wonderful reply. Again it makes sense, and why I see a lot of retired folks driving Porsches <joking>
Unfortunately for me now, I will have to tell me wife that need both a Bentley and a Porsche!

Po

 

[aboudd]

Would a pro photographer use the 645D? I have been a working pro for over 35 years and the 645D has become my workhorse. I used to have a Contax 645 with the P25 back, that was a fine camera as well. My point is, the sun does not rise or set or any particular camera or brand, and contrary to an earlier post, paying more doesn't necessarily mean you are getting more in real world application. My clients and print buyers would never see a difference in the images taken with either system.

 

[Paratom]

...

I must also in fairness admit, that my greatest hesitancy with regard to the Leica is the price and this is especially noteworthy
since it is a single integrated system, without an obvious upgrade pathway and from a company without a track record in MF
(i.e. may or may not stay in this format).

Thank you, I deeply appreciate your help.

I had this concern as well 1 year ago. However I have developped trust to Leica since with both systems- M9 and S2 they have sold more cameras than expected and planned.
There latest financial results look quite good, and I have had very good response from Leica Germany S2 Service whenever I have had any questions.

Regarding price:
The Leica M lenses I own have held there value or even increased in value - the part which looses money is the camera. Thats why I felt ok spending so much money on Leica S-lenses. With those new lenses I feel "futureproof", more important for me than an "update programm" for the back/camera is that lenses are a long term "investment".

But in the end I would say user interface is the most important point-and a very personal one. Thats why I would really recommend to test the alternatives as much as possible and them make your decision.

 

[aboudd]

A VERY important point. Resale value is in the lenses, not the bodies. As to the upgrade paths, whether it is a new back using the Phase or Leaf platforms on an existing camera or the integrated bodies like the S2 or 645D, the amount of money needed to upgrade seems to be near equivalent. Technical improvements made in each new generation of camera body are also a consideration, it isn't all about the sensor after all.

 

[fotografz]

Hahaha.... Thank you Marc for your wonderful reply. Again it makes sense, and why I see a lot of retired folks driving Porsches <joking>
Unfortunately for me now, I will have to tell me wife that need both a Bentley and a Porsche!

Po

Actually Po, for what this stuff costs ... rather than amble. I could roar off into the sunset in a Porsche.

Marc

 

[pophoto]

Actually Po, for what this stuff costs ... rather than amble. I could roar off into the sunset in a Porsche.

Marc

Most definitely, but on top of your photographic gear, who is to assume that you DON'T already have one

 

[delander]

As a Leica M8 and now M9 user I've watched lots of people drift away into digital MF over the last two or three years. I've shot with a Leica S2, but in all honesty I would have to sell all of my M gear/lenses to afford it with one lens. I have also shot with a friend's H4D50 which was great but again too much for me. It was not until the Pentax 645D came along that I was able to make the move into digital MF by selling off my Canon gear whilst keeping all my Leica stuff.
My main concern was the quality of the Pentax lenses (not the quality or build of the camera/sensor), but that so far has proved to be an unnecessary worry.

Pentax should be applauded for making digital MF possible for a larger number of photographers. Outside of the elevated membership of GETdpi it is still a very expensive camera.

I too would question the assertion that images produced by the H4D40 would differ significantly from those of the Pentax.

Jeff

 

[Shashin]

Now if you have the cash, one thing about the S2 is that it might just have the best glass on any camera today.

 

[Jeffg53]

On the other hand, the S2, despite the best glass, may be crippled by the lack of its own software as in C1 and Phocus.

 

[pophoto]

On the other hand, the S2, despite the best glass, may be crippled by the lack of its own software as in C1 and Phocus.

Is it really that bad that they don't? Isn't LR or C1 enough?