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leica S2 vs. hasselblad H4D-40 vs. IQ140

pophoto

New member
Now if you have the cash, one thing about the S2 is that it might just have the best glass on any camera today.
Some people still think it is flawed by it's application: For example the way it tethers is slow, or the mirror is too significant, not sure if it has a delay or not and couple of other things I've heard too. Perhaps someone can confirm or deny it here for clarity, since I'm keen on the S2 as well :p
 

Jeffg53

Member
As a Hasselblad user, I know that nothing comes near Phocus in extracting the best from a RAW file. Hasselblad provides the complete workflow from lense to software. I guess it comes down to how well Adobe handle Leica files. I can't see it as a high priority item for Adobe.

The S2 show-stopper for me has always been the 2:3 ratio. I am much more comfortable with h645 but someone coming from a DSLR may not consider it an issue.
 

atanabe

Member
On the other hand, the S2, despite the best glass, may be crippled by the lack of its own software as in C1 and Phocus.
Interesting assumption, Hasselblad has Phocus software that really helps make up for lens artifacts. I know because I used to shoot Hasselblad and used Phocus exclusively. I used C1 when the M8 came out and welcomed LR with open arms when it became available. I shoot with an S2 and process it using LR and don't feel like I am missing anything. A well exposed, well lit image - what do I have to manipulate?
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Repeat: Application, application, application ... is the answer to any of these personal preferences, and how a system may or may not meet your needs is what shapes these opinions. There is no wrong or right way, only your way or ... (cue Frank Sinatra), "My Way".

Ratios: 2:3, 3:4, 1:1 ... we've all worked with each of them and have learned to compose with each of these ratios. We may have a preference, but each has its place ... I personally have an affection for 1:1 from having used a Hasselblad 500/203 legacy system for 40 years.

Actually, I like working in all three common ratios, and for many of MY applications the S2's 2:3 ratio actually works very well. Like when shooting groups of people where a 1:1 or 3:4 usually gets cropped top and bottom to a 2:3 anyway ... or full length portrait, or environmental portraits. I also personally prefer 2:3 for most wide angle work.

However for commercial work it is different. When I'm shooting wheels for General Motors it is always a 1:1 crop, and a typical magazine page w/bleed is 3:3.8 ratio

When I shoot a wedding, I'm also using a 35mm DSLR & Leica M9 and the S2 is the same ratio ... so all proof images are 4x6. Like wise, the most common wedding album size is 12" X 19" spreads, which is a 2:3 ratio.

So, it depends on application, application, application.

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Some people still think it is flawed by it's application: For example the way it tethers is slow, or the mirror is too significant, not sure if it has a delay or not and couple of other things I've heard too. Perhaps someone can confirm or deny it here for clarity, since I'm keen on the S2 as well :p
The S2 can be tethered two ways: using the Leica Image shuttle, or directly to Lightroom. I do not like the Image Shuttle at all because the program window is too small and I shoot tethered to dual 30" screens. I love the LR tether, where the last image shot is added to the Library and fills the Development screen so I can see it from the studio floor.

Slow tethered capture is mis-information, or old information. Leica updated the S2 firmware, so now you simply select lossless DNG compressed as the S2 capture file format. While the S2 may not be the fastest thethered, it most certainly isn't the slowest either. So, it is NOT slow ... unless you have a wimpy Graphics Card ... which is true for any MFD tethered shooting.

Not sure what "the mirror is too significant" means. If that refers to size, well, it IS medium Format so the mirror is bigger than in a 35mm. If that means mirror slap, the S2 mirror is pretty well dampened ... but again, it is larger than a 35mm, so that comment may be from those coming from 35mm DSLRs. The Hasselblad mirror is even bigger than the S2's, but that can be somewhat mitigated by programming in a slight mirror delay when working hand-held. That may be a good suggestion for a S2 firmware upgrade.

What are the "couple of other things" ? :D

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
As a Hasselblad user, I know that nothing comes near Phocus in extracting the best from a RAW file. Hasselblad provides the complete workflow from lense to software. I guess it comes down to how well Adobe handle Leica files. I can't see it as a high priority item for Adobe.
Old news countered by current news. Adobe LR now works even better with the S2 files because Leica issued a firmware update with an improved proprietary embedded profile, and Adobe added full S2 lens corrections ... which was interesting to see in action, because unlike H/C lenses in Phocus, some S2 lenses show very little correction being needed. The comparative difference between the S35mm LR lens corrections and the HC/35mm DAC corrections demonstrates how badly Hasselblad needs to update their 35mm, like they have with the 50mm-II ;)

Also, Hasselblad files MUST be opened in Phocus, then saved as tiffs to preserve the DAC lens corrections ... where the LR lens corrections for S2 optics remain as non-distructive DNG RAW files in the LR library for that job. Big difference :thumbs:

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Is it really that bad that they don't? Isn't LR or C1 enough?
At first, I thought it was a mistake on Leica's part to not issue proprietary RAW software. With the current firmware update and new S2 embedded profile, and Adobe S2 lens corrections, that concern has proven to be unfounded.

IMO, Lightroom is the fastest, most diverse RAW software out there, and gets better with every new version. The incredible array of tools to use directly on the RAW file in a non-distructive manner is unmatched ... and the ability to open a file in PS or any 3rd party processing software like Nik Silver Effex without leaving LR to do it, then have that file placed back into the job's LR Library is my workflow dream come true.

C1 is great, Phocus is great ... and both are fussy snails compared to LR for my applications. And, NO I do not feel I'm missing anything by using LR. The more I use it the "luckier" I get. Like with any software, skill plays the key role. Using the same software rather than three or four, promotes skill IMHO.

-Marc
 

Paratom

Well-known member
LR works very well, C1 can aso be used for the S2.
For my taste I dont miss anything Softwarewise when working with the S2 files.

Mirror is very well damped IMO for such a camera.
That delay option might make sense, I havent felt a need for it so far.

On tethered shooting I cant comment because I dont do it.

If I was forced to criticize something I would say the top display could be a little brighter in bright light, and maybe also the information display inside the viewfinder could be a little brighter and eventually include a little bit more information.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
If I was forced to criticize something I would say the top display could be a little brighter in bright light, and maybe also the information display inside the viewfinder could be a little brighter and eventually include a little bit more information.
+1 ... especially the viewfinder info in really bright ambient.

I wonder if a better eye cup would help that?

-Marc
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
I guess it comes down to how well Adobe handle Leica files. I can't see it as a high priority item for Adobe.
Working with Leica is a high priority for Adobe. Every Leica digital camera from the bottom up (V-Lux 30, V-Lux 2, D-Lux 5, M9, M9-P, S2) all come bundled with Adobe software. The D-Lux 5, M9, M9-P and S2 all come with Lightroom. Even for Adobe, I'd imagine that 150,000 or so LR licenses would make Leica a somewhat important client. :)

David
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Some people still think it is flawed by it's application: For example the way it tethers is slow, or the mirror is too significant, not sure if it has a delay or not and couple of other things I've heard too. Perhaps someone can confirm or deny it here for clarity, since I'm keen on the S2 as well :p

The OP is looking for a landscape/outdoor camera. Tethering is not going to be a problem.

I doubt the Hasselblad mirror is better, but the mirror "slap" thing is really overstated and stating to reach myth status. The 645D mirror is really well dampened where I can handhold the body at 1/10s. I am sure Leica has a well dampened mirror.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
On the other hand, the S2, despite the best glass, may be crippled by the lack of its own software as in C1 and Phocus.
I have used C1. I do not feel "crippled" because I process my Pentax images in Photoshop. I would say it is the same with Leica. I think the RAW processor thing is overstated as well.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The OP is looking for a landscape/outdoor camera. Tethering is not going to be a problem.

I doubt the Hasselblad mirror is better, but the mirror "slap" thing is really overstated and stating to reach myth status. The 645D mirror is really well dampened where I can handhold the body at 1/10s. I am sure Leica has a well dampened mirror.
Have to agree. Have not seen a real test on any comparison to actual vibration from any of them. Yes some are very quiet but that really means squat in regards to vibration. Just because one maybe quieter does not mean it vibrates less. Most landscape shooters always lock up the mirror anyway. Owning The DF they really have a nice setup with timer and mirror lock up, I think several others do as well. Seriously between these 3 or 4 setups they all will preform very well. The real questions in deciding these is the whole system ands it's parts. From sales,service to finished print and everything in between. Reading some of these threads you really need to to try these out at the end of the day. Not one single person owns all of them at once and you have to put the whole puzzle together to make a informed buying decision. I have shot all of them and there is not one of them I would not enjoy having. Except the Pentax 645 I have not tried but would love too give it a run.

Also we do have some reviews here to look at to help fill in the puzzle but not one source will always be dead on you need to do your homework and do it well. Lot of money at stake here and you don't want to make a mistake by not having all the facts straight not myth.
 
D

delander

Guest
… Except the Pentax 645 I have not tried but would love too give it a run. …
If you have time you should try to get one for testing, Pentax should be able to oblige now that the cameras are readily available. Would be nice to see a warts and all review from someone who has extensive experience with this type of camera.
With regard to mirror clunk the Hasselblad H4D seem very noisy, far more so than the Pentax.

Jeff
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
I will give you half for that S2 body. :D

Certainly a valid concern and one I wish I had given more weight to when I bought my Sinar kit (I'm now a Leica S2 shooter). But unlike Sinar the demand for Leica products appears to be very strong. So much so that it's difficult to find stock. A more valid concern might be whether, if you bought a Leica S2. you would be able to get a full complement of lenses for it.

With regard to upgrades I think the real question is not whether the company offers trade-ins but how much it cost you to own the camera when you want to sell or replace it. Having paid my dues in this regard on more than one occasion I am very sensitive to this aspect of gear choices. Right now I suspect my Leica gear is worth at least what I paid for it...probably more.

There are many valid reasons why another system might suit you better but I would suggest that these two shouldn't be determining factors.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Sometimes I wonder if I should not have given the Pentax a try before getting the S2. The problem was that I read to many mixed reports about the lenses.
I am totally fine with the S2, but allways wonder if I might have been maybe as happy with the Pentax for 1/3 of the money.

All those MF systems seem to have pos and neg points, but IMO the Pentax really stands out price wise.

And then I sometimes miss the rendering of the Rollei lenses and the color of the dalsa sensor sensor and the WLF of the Hy6...

;) one thing to keep in mind..do you ever might want to use a tech cam? Thats the disadvantage of the integrated cameras.
 

David K

Workshop Member
I will give you half for that S2 body. :D
Thanks for the offer Roger...now I am sure it's gone up in value!!

And if you plan on walking around with a pair of S2's with different focal lengths attached...I would suggest both a personal trainer and a bodyguard :)
 
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