leica S2 vs. hasselblad H4D-40 vs. IQ140

[craigrudlin]

I would like to make the move from 35mm to MF. I photograph nature, landscape and abstract. I do not do studio work.
I want to make (and even now often do) prints 20x30 and preferably larger. I do appreciate the "micro contrast" look for MF.
I am considering the Lecia S2 and the Hasselblaud H4D-40 and of course
the PhaseOne IQ140. (I am "coming from" the Nikon 35 mm world.)

I am trying to weigh the pros/cons, the advantages/disadvantages of these two systems. I have been fortunate enough to
use the Leica for 4 days and must admit that I was extremely impressed by the image quality and of course, its form factor
is very similar to the Nikon D3X, so it did feel "familiar" to me. I have not been able to try the Hasselblaud, although I am
trying to arrange that. I used the IQ140 for a day.

But a couple days of use is not the same as weeks or months, and I would deeply appreciate comments or advice from
anyone who has had the opportunity to work with both of these systems "in the real world." I am interested in comments
relating to (a) the body/back and (b) the "glass".

I know that this is somewhat an "open ended" request, and that there is not a conclusive or absolute "answer", but I accept this.

I must also in fairness admit, that my greatest hesitancy with regard to the Leica is the price and this is especially noteworthy
since it is a single integrated system, without an obvious upgrade pathway and from a company without a track record in MF
(i.e. may or may not stay in this format).

Thank you, I deeply appreciate your help.

 

[archivue]

you should ad a leaf to your list !

 

[jagsiva]

I am going through a very similar thought process. 90% of my photography is landscapes, but usually involve multi-day trips via kayak (to add some context).

I primarily used a 1DSIII with L primes, lots of tele stuff etc. The Canon wides (14, 24, 24TSE, 35) were not cutting it for the resolution of the 1DS, so I move to an M9 (18, 24/35/50 Lux, Nocti and 90 APO Cron) and 5D (for casual stuff), and GH2. The M9 and glass are fantastic, extremely portable in my Kayak, and it has been wonderful. I also have a little Gitzo CF tripod that is very handy for keeping things light and tidy.

Having said this, when when I look at MF images on this forum, I was greatly tempted by the smoooooth tones in the images. The resolution is important for me as I print of a 44" Z3100 and love to do large prints, but what struck me most was how much smoother the MF images looked compared to the M9.

This lead me to the S2. I love Leica so figured I would go this route. Played with the S2 and it is a beautiful camera, but I did not feel that it was a big enough step off the M9. Also, knowing myself, I am sure at some point I would want to try a tech camera for wides.

In the price point of the S2, the P65+ makes a lot of sense. for 30K, I can be up and running with the fine 80 CS and body, and for another 10K have a decent lens lineup, and I like the fact that unlike Leica, Canon etc., I have an upgrade path and policy. I thought I was settled on this, but not so...

I figured, if I am going to spend this kind of money, I may as well see what the best backs offer - Aptus II 12 and IQ 180. I have demos booked next week, and cannot wait. If the IQ180 did not exist, the Aptus would be a no brainer. I can justify the additional cost over the P65+ (approx 7K) for the much better screen, interface, resolution and latest sensor tech. Apparently, their upgrade policy is also quite similar to Phase, so that's a positive as well. My only concern is the 32s max exp. So I will need to decide if that and the differences in the interface of the IQ are worth the extra huge leap in cost -- of course it makes sense to me but may not to my wife.

I know this does not answer your question, but certainly add Leaf to the mix, and also consider the P65+ (I thing its way more bang for your $ than the S2). The P65+ also gives you a lot more flexibility for tech camera use, especially if you into landscapes, and you have far more lens options. One other factor in play for me was the possibility of a new digital phase body, which I'm sure, when it arrives, will be better integrated with their backs.

Good luck with your decision, and I will be eagerly watching this thread

 

[jagsiva]

BTW, one more point. Lurking around this forum, I am just amazed at how involved guys like Yair from Leaf, and the the boys from CI are in helping out users. Try that with Leica!!

 

[cs750]

Jagsiva, it seems to me you have made some telling points. I notice this is your 3rd post as a new member and it illustrates the value and contributions of members contributing new "blood" by posting. I recently happened to run through several pages of our membership and am truly amazed at how many members have never made a post; I understand this because I have been there...there is a natural hesitation about jumping in, but whatever we can do to keep all members in our loop just makes this a stronger place to be. In my view your two posts are worth a second read because of their analysis value whether someone agrees with all of it or not. I for one encourage those who have never posted comments or questions to join in. Thanks. Charles

 

[dfarkas]

BTW, one more point. Lurking around this forum, I am just amazed at how involved guys like Yair from Leaf, and the the boys from CI are in helping out users. Try that with Leica!!

Trust me, us Leica guys are around too!

David

 

[jagsiva]

Trust me, us Leica guys are around too!

David

David, I stand corrected! I love your blog, and a key factor in me looking at the S2.

But you have to admit that for a Product manager such as Yair to be directly involved with his users, puts him in a league of his own. I only say this as my own personal experience with product managers leaves me wanting/needing them to get into the trenches and better understand how their products are being used in the real world...Cheers

 

[Willow]

I also was in the same situation, coming from 35mm and wanted MFDB.

I tried H4D40 and looked at IQ40 and ended up with ordering a Leaf Aptus II 40 with the 3 LS lenses ( 55,80 and 110 ) and an airgrip today.

The reason I ended up with a Leaf is the look of the files ( a shoot a lot of skin ), the price ( I got two more LS lenses and an Air grip for the difference in price to IQ140 ), the availebelity ( I get the Aptus and lenses in 3-4 days ), the LS lenses ( 1/1600 flash sync and focus speed ).

I have been going back and forth between 35 mm and MFDB since middle of 1990s.
PhaseOne Lightphase 6MB was my first MFDB and since then, I have had H3D31, PhaseOne P30, PhaseOne P30+ and H4D40.

This time I tried H4D60 also before ending up with Aptus.

When I had the H4d60 with a 100 mm 2.2 on loan, I also tried the Aptus with the LS 110 mm 2.8.
The difference in focus speed was a revelation. Where the HC100 hunted for a while before it locked on, the LS snapped into focus immediately!!!

There and then, Hasselblad disappeared from the equation!
I wanted to use those LS lenses.

And it was not that easy for me to drop the Hasselblad. I have been a Hassy fan since the early 70s. I even have a Hasselblad tattoo .-().

I also selected the 40MB instead of the 80MB because of speed and more DOF.

In MFDB there is already enough problem with getting focus right, so the very limited DOF on the bigger chip is not for my kind of work.

At 2.8, the DOF is shallow enough with a 40MB chip. I am not that big of a wide angle shooter either. A 28 on the 40MB chip is like a 24mm in 35. And that is wide enough for me.

This is my first post here and I am excited to be back in the MFDB fold.

My current camera is Nikon D3X, and I love its quality ( but I love MFDB more .-) ).

Printed paper tends to equalize the IQ difference, but the joy of retouching a MFDB file is priceless.

Looking forward to Monday when my back and lenses arrives, and again I can pop up a MFDB file on the big screen and admire the smoothnes of a MFDB file.

 

[Jeffg53]

Forums like this are excellent resources. GetDPI is probably the best of all, but nothing beats the relationship that you have with your rep. I would never buy my gear from an online place for that reason. My experience with Hasselblad is that real problems get solved by face to face contact not a forum.

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

I have owned the H4D and M9, and rented the S2 from David Farkas. When making these decisions, it's important to look ahead at how your photography will evolve. These considerations are just as important as upgrade paths. DB's like the H4D have micro-lenses, and are not recommended for cameras with movements (tilt/shift, etc.). It is however, a fantastic camera that produces a wonder image, and probably has the least shutter vibration of any MFD/SLR. It's a closed system, but has cool options like HTS 1.5 tilt/shift adapter and waist level viewfinder. It did need frequent battery changes and cleaning, but some have suggested the removable finder might add (dust) to that. It's an easy camera to clean though. The S2, is amazing too, very robust and weather sealed. Don't forget the Pentax 645D, also weather sealed with 40 MP (same sensor as the H4D) and very good price point.
Lastly, I would also suggest the Hasselblad "V" system, DB's such as the CFV 39 can be used on most any Hasselblad since 1957. Access to Carl Zeiss lenses and options such as the flex body, arch body, extension tubes and bellows. Plus the retro look is nice too.

 

[fotografz]

As always, choosing is difficult and highly personal.

I worked with a H4D/40 for well over a year, and now have worked with the S2 for about a year ... both used for portrait, (specifically environmental portraits), travel, wedding photography, and some commercial location assignments.

I was interested in the S2 for well over a year before getting one. My earlier initial tests were inconclusive because being a new camera, the S2 was a work-in-progress and at the time only had two lenses available. So I waited and watched.

That was then and this is now.

I did get a S2P and all four available lenses. After testing it against my H4D/40, I found them roughly equal in IQ when printed ... with the edge given to the S2 probably due to the lenses. I upgraded the H4D/40 to a H4D/60 and use that camera primarily in the studio now. Most all mobile and location work is done with the S2.

I'd advise buying from a known Leica dealer, like David or my long time Leica dealer Sam at the Classic Connection. I have had to have some things fixed and the Leica S2 service team was just as responsive and quick as my Hasselblad service, maybe even better.

Leica has issued meaningful firmware updates for the S2, which has improved the speed and accuracy of the cameras to the point that it now has taken over many of the applications I would have used a 35mm DSLR for. I take the S2 with me far more frequently than I ever did any other MF system ... including a Mamiya 645 with a Leaf Aptus 75s back, and a number of different versions of the H system. The form factor just promotes taking it with you more like a 35mm than a MFD.

That said, the H4D/40 and 50 has also been recently upgraded with new firmware, has the very useful True Focus, and is a far more complete system. I wouldn't worry to much about the trade value based on being modular ... in that regard, the S2 and H4D are the same. When you upgrade a H4 the back and body stay together. So, the modularity is an advantage only if you want to use the back on a technical camera.

Ant specific questions come to mind, just ask.

-Marc

 

[pipzz]

Leica S2 kit - $29k
Phase IQ140 kit - $26k
H4D-40 kit - $20k

What's your budget? Ones you answer it to yourself, you'll find the right kit.

 

[MP7]

I saw Marc sold his H4D-40 for below $12,000. If your budget is low the Hasselblad is of great values.

 

[bythewei]

I saw Marc sold his H4D-40 for below $12,000. If your budget is low the Hasselblad is of great values.

H4D-40 for 12,000 is quite unbelievable but hang on a minute. We talking about USD or Euros here?

 

[MP7]

I am pretty sure Marc sold his H4D-40 for $11,600 USD.

 

[David K]

I must also in fairness admit, that my greatest hesitancy with regard to the Leica is the price and this is especially noteworthy
since it is a single integrated system, without an obvious upgrade pathway and from a company without a track record in MF
(i.e. may or may not stay in this format).

Thank you, I deeply appreciate your help.

Certainly a valid concern and one I wish I had given more weight to when I bought my Sinar kit (I'm now a Leica S2 shooter). But unlike Sinar the demand for Leica products appears to be very strong. So much so that it's difficult to find stock. A more valid concern might be whether, if you bought a Leica S2. you would be able to get a full complement of lenses for it.

With regard to upgrades I think the real question is not whether the company offers trade-ins but how much it cost you to own the camera when you want to sell or replace it. Having paid my dues in this regard on more than one occasion I am very sensitive to this aspect of gear choices. Right now I suspect my Leica gear is worth at least what I paid for it...probably more.

There are many valid reasons why another system might suit you better but I would suggest that these two shouldn't be determining factors.

 

[aboudd]

Leica S2 kit for $29,000? That's the body with one lens. A three lens kit, if lenses are ever available is closer to 45-50K.

I'd like to throw a bug into this conversation. Pentax 645D and a complete lens kit (I have the 35, 45-85, 75, 120, 150 and 80-160 (a little too much glass of course) all for under $15,000.00 as all of the glass is available used. If one were to buy only AF lenses it would still be under $20K. Ergonomics are great, IQ is great, far superior to the D3x I sold to fund this). The only down side it is a slow working processor (about 6 secs to load image on the LCD). For landscape work, that shouldn't be an issue. I'm making 36" prints for my gallery exhibit and they are wonderful.

 

[pipzz]

I'm making 36" prints for my gallery exhibit and they are wonderful.

Well, try to make 36" prints from H4D-40 and compare to 645D.

It's obviously that IQ from $20k camera will be better than $11k camera, and $60k camera IQ is better than from $20k one's. Given that person behind the camera knows what he is doing. It's free market in free world, and cameras are valued by IQ they can deliver.

Don't get me wrong, 645D is a great camera for $11k. But H4D-40 is from little different league.

 

[Charles Wood]

I can only assume complaints about the write times for the 645D are from users who are shooting RAW + JPG and backing up to a second card. If I load one card in my 645D, shoot RAW only, the time from shutter release to display on the screen is approximately two seconds. The preview lasts approximately three seconds. I hit the display button again and the image comes up almost immediately. If I back up in JPG Large to a second card, the results are virtually the same. If I backup RAW to the second card, then the time to write completion is about six seconds. If you can live without backing up, the write time is a non-issue, in my opinion.

 

[Charles Wood]

Well, try to make 36" prints from H4D-40 and compare to 645D.

It's obviously that IQ from $20k camera will be better than $11k camera, and $60k camera IQ is better than from $20k one's. Given that person behind the camera knows what he is doing. It's free market in free world, and cameras are valued by IQ they can deliver.

Don't get me wrong, 645D is a great camera for $11k. But H4D-40 is from little different league.

I would challenge your assumption that the H4D-40 is in a different league from the 645D in terms of image quality or construction quality. The optics could certainly influence overall image quality but considering they use essentially identical sensors, post processing skills and lens selection are likely to be the deciding factors in the real world. And the difference between 14 bit processing (Pentax) and 16 bit processing (Hasselblad) is another non-issue in the real world. Printer and media selection will have far more impact on the final image.

For studio work I would certainly consider the Hasselblad, or others, but for fast moving field/landscape work, the 645D is superb and that is precisely the type of environment that it, and Pentax 645 and 67 predecessors, were designed for.