The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

leica S2 vs. hasselblad H4D-40 vs. IQ140

pophoto

New member
Sorry I want to drag this old horse back into the race and by old horse I really mean "thread" and by race, I really mean "discussion" :p

I've been scouting back and forth, reading a lot of the thread and postings about these different MF systems, and eventually when I am ready, I will pony up for one and before that I hope to test some. However, I still trying to get as much info from you seasoned pros as possible!

To me, so far, the S2 and H4d are complete (closed) systems, with the S2 being somewhat behind (limited choice of lenses but growing with adapters etc.), simply because it one of the newest additions in MF cameras. This isn't to say the IQ or PhaseOne isn't a complete system, but whenever I hear someone mention an IQ back, that's exactly what I think of, and also feel it's one of the advantages as well. Now, that is because I hear a lot of people using it with their techcams for Landscape or architectural photography.

For myself, I'm first considering going into MF with closed system, although it may not be completely accurate, but will help this discussion and eventually focus my question at the end. I think in GetDPI, we've already established that different people like different brands and use different systems because of their shooting preferences etc. However, I am hearing less and less about PhaseOne with their 645DF/AF camera and how well it performs within it's own system. So rather than starting a new thread, I thought I'd expand my question here. I know four new Schneider Kreuznach lenses have been announced, so I guess not so much testing as of yet, but how about the camera?

Hasselblad has Truefocus, S2 and its crosshair AF and SLR handling, but how is the PhaseOne today and more specifically the 645DF, and are you IQ back photogs simply skipping up on this because of how good the backs are and how you simple want to or prefer to use them on ALPAs and CAMBOs (Okay, ARCA SWISS...okok, I don't want a long list now).

I just want a clear idea where we are today, because I find myself heavily going siding for the S2 or H4D. Although clearly (my 'feelings' only) the IQ backs (Again I'm thinking back only) is equally as strong if not better for image resolution as far as choice and dynamic range and very importantly it has the best LCD screen! The only reason I am not siding with PhaseOne although I can point out its strengths, because I feel the 645DF/AF is dated and as a whole doesn't live up to its IQ backs or S2 or H4D in handling. Am I wrong and how far off am I?

Sorry to make you guys sound like broken records, a lot of older comments are simply that, and I know you guys have grown with systems through usage and the manufacturers are making updates, both firmware and hardware!

Thanks
Po
 
D

delander

Guest
Honestly if you are heavily siding towards the S2 or H4D, I simply would not leave out the Pentax 645D, it has a lot going for it and not just the price. It is at least worth trying out, nothing to lose and perhaps a lot to gain. I too am a M9 user so I know a lot about Leica glass, and now I'm learning about Pentax glass.

Jeff
 

jagsiva

Active member
Honestly if you are heavily siding towards the S2 or H4D, I simply would not leave out the Pentax 645D, it has a lot going for it and not just the price. It is at least worth trying out, nothing to lose and perhaps a lot to gain. I too am a M9 user so I know a lot about Leica glass, and now I'm learning about Pentax glass.

Jeff
Jeff,

I assume you have the M9 and 645D. How are you finding the file differences? Cheers...
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Most definitely, but on top of your photographic gear, who is to assume that you DON'T already have one :)
Those days are looooong gone my friend. I've owned three Porches, and as they say, three's a charm.

Now it's a cavernous Volvo SUV to carry all my lighting and camera gear to locations ... not to mention my wife's steamer trunks full of clothes and accessories for her and her Chihuahua :ROTFL:

Marc
 
D

delander

Guest
Jeff,

I assume you have the M9 and 645D. How are you finding the file differences? Cheers...
Leaving aside the size, they are quite similar, but the Pentax has more DR and the high iso performance seems better. Of course they both have Kodak sensors and no AA filter. I'm surprised how easy the Pentax is to use handheld. It is a heavy (in comparison to an M9 not when compared to a Hasselblad) camera and has a large (but well damped) mirror). The shutter button is very smooth and even using the 75mm lens, which is of the older mechanical drive type focusing, it is quick enough to focus and then continue to take the photograph in one smooth action.

I only have two lenses at the moment the 75 just mentioned and the new 55mm – both seem sharp to me, for landscape I tend to use them at around F8. I have used both a Leica S2 and a Hassy H4D50. I think I prefer the handling of the Pentax over the Leica. Both the screens on the Pentax are a revelation in clarity.

But I'm no 'camera/lens tester' I gave that up long ago because of the impossibility of controlling all the variables.

Jeff
 

jagsiva

Active member
Thanks for the detailed response Jeff. I found the S2 files vs M9 to be in the same boat, better DR, and better resolution, but the difference didnt really knock my socks off. The M9, for its size/convenience is a great piece of kit. Having said this, WB and colour ooc on the S2 was in a different league. I am going to try out the Aptus 12 and IQ tomorrow. Now just need to figure out if I'm going to break the news to the wife over dinner or jewellery :)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Sorry I want to drag this old horse back into the race and by old horse I really mean "thread" and by race, I really mean "discussion" :p

I've been scouting back and forth, reading a lot of the thread and postings about these different MF systems, and eventually when I am ready, I will pony up for one and before that I hope to test some. However, I still trying to get as much info from you seasoned pros as possible!

To me, so far, the S2 and H4d are complete (closed) systems, with the S2 being somewhat behind (limited choice of lenses but growing with adapters etc.), simply because it one of the newest additions in MF cameras. This isn't to say the IQ or PhaseOne isn't a complete system, but whenever I hear someone mention an IQ back, that's exactly what I think of, and also feel it's one of the advantages as well. Now, that is because I hear a lot of people using it with their techcams for Landscape or architectural photography.

For myself, I'm first considering going into MF with closed system, although it may not be completely accurate, but will help this discussion and eventually focus my question at the end. I think in GetDPI, we've already established that different people like different brands and use different systems because of their shooting preferences etc. However, I am hearing less and less about PhaseOne with their 645DF/AF camera and how well it performs within it's own system. So rather than starting a new thread, I thought I'd expand my question here. I know four new Schneider Kreuznach lenses have been announced, so I guess not so much testing as of yet, but how about the camera?

Hasselblad has Truefocus, S2 and its crosshair AF and SLR handling, but how is the PhaseOne today and more specifically the 645DF, and are you IQ back photogs simply skipping up on this because of how good the backs are and how you simple want to or prefer to use them on ALPAs and CAMBOs (Okay, ARCA SWISS...okok, I don't want a long list now).

I just want a clear idea where we are today, because I find myself heavily going siding for the S2 or H4D. Although clearly (my 'feelings' only) the IQ backs (Again I'm thinking back only) is equally as strong if not better for image resolution as far as choice and dynamic range and very importantly it has the best LCD screen! The only reason I am not siding with PhaseOne although I can point out its strengths, because I feel the 645DF/AF is dated and as a whole doesn't live up to its IQ backs or S2 or H4D in handling. Am I wrong and how far off am I?

Sorry to make you guys sound like broken records, a lot of older comments are simply that, and I know you guys have grown with systems through usage and the manufacturers are making updates, both firmware and hardware!

Thanks
Po
Seriously Po, you have to carefully define your personal applications ...current or projected. All of these systems are competent to some degree, wether $10K or $25K, and owners of each system will tout their own choices based on all sorts of personal criteria ... which may or may not be the same as yours.

The other important aspect is understanding the ramifications of moving from a 35mm DSLR kit to MFD ... some of which don't reveal themselves until you live with the system for some time.
There are lot of MFD detractors in the 35mm DSLR ranks who "tried and died" because they never could tell the difference in the first place, or couldn't master the gear's potential. The eye of the beholder, and all that.

My personal criteria immediately rules out the Pentax, but it may not for you. Others have criteria that crosses off the S2, and would eliminate it even if it was 1/2 the price it is. I ruled out Phase One because I wanted ALL of my lenses to be Leaf Shutter ... (this commitment to the H system was well before Phase begin their relationship with Schneider ... however, my criteria still stands.)

How a camera handles depends on who's hands it is in. I did not take to the Mamiya 645, but others find it just fine. The S2 fits my hands and the ergonomics are superb, but Guy Mancusio found it difficult to hold in his hands. It is all very personal and requires actual direct handling.

If you are after absolute, undeniable IQ that is pretty future proof no matter what the 35mm DSLR companies bring out ... then consider skipping the crop frame 40 meg cameras altogether and jump to 60meg FF 645 from Hasselblad, Leaf or Phase One ... or 80 meg from Leaf or Phase One. I wouldn't worry to much about the Phase One camera ... they already have said it is being redesigned, so it is just a matter of time. Being totally modular, one would hope you could just get the new body, and keep the current one as a back-up.

However, keep in mind that ... with greater resolution comes greater responsibility to learn how to realize that resolution ... patience Grasshopper, patience. ;)

The only 40ish meg camera I would consider today based on my personal "People Shooting" criteria is the Leica S2 ... not just for the beautiful camera (which I think is typically over-priced), but for the lenses which have already become my favorite MFD optics ever. However, for roughly the same cash, you can get a higher resolution solution.

My 2¢ regarding 4,000,000¢ solutions :rolleyes:

-Marc
 
D

delander

Guest
My personal criteria immediately rules out the Pentax, but it may not for you.

-Marc

Hi Marc,
Does this mean, absence of LS lenses, no tethering, (except eye-fi?) quality of Pentax lenses, no separate DB or other features? I'm working on the assumption that the OP is interested in a camera for landscape. It is true however that I am new to MFD so I accept that my views could be biased. Even saying that the Pentax seems such a great camera, for the price.

Jeff
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Agree with Marc here but need to remember the parts that really count are the glass and the sensor. The body is really just a connection between the two. You buy a system some parts maybe great and some are workable. BTW as one of the owners I could spout off why I like Phase but than I would be tagged bias and the reality is I am not but I don't do that and many owners don't always get into that stuff either on all sides of the fence. This is not a canon/Nikon type war here. We just don't do that here at GetDPI. MF owners here are very smart with lots of experience but we all know very well these are all great systems. Not one of them is a clear winner over the other and that's a good thing.
 
D

delander

Guest
I'm detecting a minor reprimand here. I just feel that Phaseone and Hasseblad and their associated companies and Leica are getting a great deal of coverage here and the new digital boy, the Pentax is not.

Jeff
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I don't think that at all. The issue really at hand is exactly what you just said the new boy and it's lack of being in the MF market with history and sales,service, repair, parts behind it as compared to the established systems. I said this a bunch of times on the S2 when it came out. It simply needs to mature, it's the same with Pentax. It's new it needs to grow both as a system and with MF shooters. It's got a great start but for many Pros it's missing some things and it needs to grow. There is nothing sinister in that at all. I will not buy it just like I will not buy it until I'm comfortable with it's growth. That's me and others have different criteria as well. Honestly for a lot of people it just comes down to getting to be a mature system , more new lenses made and so on and so forth. But I will say it has a great start and the more folks buy it the more it will get established in the market. For many the price is not a criteria at all and I think many folks think that price alone will get it's foot in the door. Wrong that is not the case but the growth is. For
Pros these are write off items and cost yes has bearing but more important buying a established system with everything behind it in place simply is more important for many. I say this as a general comment as some Pros have bought in which is great but there criteria maybe different than others.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I'm detecting a minor reprimand here. I just feel that Phaseone and Hasseblad and their associated companies and Leica are getting a great deal of coverage here and the new digital boy, the Pentax is not.

Jeff
I guess it depends probably on how many users are present here.

Also when Pentax came out with the D645 most useres here had allready a MF camera and therefore would not switch systems.

Personally I was close to buy one but at this time (I even allready bought a used 75mm lens which I still have-any body interested in a used 75mm Pentax 645 AF lens) there were mixed reports out there about lenses. Plus I had the chance to play for a couple of days with a S2 which just made me want the S2.

Now one year later there are more guys who seem quite happy with the 645d and the lenses and who knows how I would decide today.
One doubt regarding Pentax would be my experience with 2 K5 bodies-where I did not get the AF accurancy I hoped for. I think the 645D is supposed to have the same AF (however the AF points are smaller in relation to the sensor-so it might behave different).

The images I saw in the Pentax 645 thread are beautiful, it is besides the S2 the only weather sealer MF camera, and it is the only one with multiple AF points.
 
D

delander

Guest
Guy, when the Leica S2 came out you gave that an impressive review, what about doing the same for the Pentax, if they will lend you one of course.

Jeff
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Jeff I would love to do a review on it. It's a great start for many in the MF market especially those coming from 35mm or maybe better said stealing from that market. Which is wonderful for the MF world. I see it as a very important product in our industry and somewhat a game changer. Look at the S2 today it's changed it got better , new firmware more lenses and so on. Let's hope Pentax stays with it and makes it grow. Honestly I love my Phase gear but this is good for the industry which I dearly care about more. We need innovative products for our future growth. Just that simple. I have enjoyed being in digital since the very beginning, I can't even describe how much it has grown from than. I never dreamed of 80mpx backs. And who would have thought of a 10k MF system years ago. Awesome stuff
 

pophoto

New member
Honestly if you are heavily siding towards the S2 or H4D, I simply would not leave out the Pentax 645D, it has a lot going for it and not just the price. It is at least worth trying out, nothing to lose and perhaps a lot to gain. I too am a M9 user so I know a lot about Leica glass, and now I'm learning about Pentax glass.

Jeff
As shallow as this sounds, I simply do not like the look of it. The costs of going into MF feels no different than buying a car as far as pricing is concerned, with a lot less choice (That's another story!)

It's not the only reason, but it's the main reason :)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Thanks for the detailed response Jeff. I found the S2 files vs M9 to be in the same boat, better DR, and better resolution, but the difference didnt really knock my socks off. The M9, for its size/convenience is a great piece of kit. Having said this, WB and colour ooc on the S2 was in a different league. I am going to try out the Aptus 12 and IQ tomorrow. Now just need to figure out if I'm going to break the news to the wife over dinner or jewellery :)
Both ... trust me on this. :ROTFL:

However, when I told my wife I wanted to get a $2P and all four lense$, I was wearing a football helmet and a sports cup, removed all immediate objects that could be used as a weapon. To my shocked suprize, she just replied that I "had worked hard all my life and deserved it." I'd marry this gal all over again :thumbs:

-Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Both ... trust me on this. :ROTFL:

However, when I told my wife I wanted to get a $2P and all four lense$, I was wearing a football helmet and a sports cup, removed all immediate objects that could be used as a weapon. To my shocked suprize, she just replied that I "had worked hard all my life and deserved it." I'd marry this gal all over again :thumbs:

-Marc
Lying bastard than she hit you over the head. :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::deadhorse:

Love ya bud. I could not resist. BTW I'm on my second helmet
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
As shallow as this sounds, I simply do not like the look of it. The costs of going into MF feels no different than buying a car as far as pricing is concerned, with a lot less choice (That's another story!)

It's not the only reason, but it's the main reason :)
Seriously looks and feel are a factor in buying and nothing wrong with that. Like golf clubs if you hate the looks of it staring down at it most likely you won't play good. Your spending a lot of money and you want it to look nice to your eye.
 

pophoto

New member
Both ... trust me on this. :ROTFL:

However, when I told my wife I wanted to get a $2P and all four lense$, I was wearing a football helmet and a sports cup, removed all immediate objects that could be used as a weapon. To my shocked suprize, she just replied that I "had worked hard all my life and deserved it." I'd marry this gal all over again :thumbs:

-Marc
Your wife is now driving the Porsche in exchange isn't she? Isn't she, Marc? :p
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Hi Marc,
Does this mean, absence of LS lenses, no tethering, (except eye-fi?) quality of Pentax lenses, no separate DB or other features? I'm working on the assumption that the OP is interested in a camera for landscape. It is true however that I am new to MFD so I accept that my views could be biased. Even saying that the Pentax seems such a great camera, for the price.

Jeff
Jeff, I don't think those who bought into the Pentax system have to feel the need to justify anything. It's a great piece of kit for a relatively reasonable price. It needs to mature, and time will tell if it does. However, for some folks it is fine as it is.

I waited well over a year after first testing the S2 before considering it again. It simply wasn't ready for prime time use for my needs and applications. In that time, and since then, it has continued to develop and get better and better. Hopefully that will continue ... and Leica's service and continued updates leads me to believe it will.

Just remember, many MFD users here have been in it for a very long time and have built their systems to meet a lot of their diverse needs.

Best of luck!

-Marc
 
Top