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Thread: Sinar M

  1. #1
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    Sinar M

    Has anyone used the Sinar M system? Could this be the rebanded Leica medium format?

  2. #2
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar M

    Dear durIII,

    "rebanded" Leica MF? What do you meant exactly?

    The Sinar m is a Sinar product/camera.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by durrIII View Post
    Has anyone used the Sinar M system? Could this be the rebanded Leica medium format?

  3. #3
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    Re: Sinar M

    Sorry Thierry. I am just asking who has used one. We have heard rumors that Leica is coming with a MF digital camera and that Leica and Sinar were partners. So maybe something could come out of this partnership. Didn't mean to step on any toes?

    -Durr

  4. #4
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar M

    Nothing to be sorry about and to apologize, and no harm at all.

    FYI: I am just wondering where from this "rumour" comes: Sinar and Leica are NOT partners at all, by no means.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by durrIII View Post
    Sorry Thierry. I am just asking who has used one. We have heard rumors that Leica is coming with a MF digital camera and that Leica and Sinar were partners. So maybe something could come out of this partnership. Didn't mean to step on any toes?

    -Durr

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    Re: Sinar M

    Thierry -- it is from here:

    http://www.pressebox.de/pressemeldun...id-183869.html

    Leica and Jenoptik concluded some sort of agreement, and since Jenoptik is Sinar's parent company, there is speculation that Leica and Sinar will be working together.
    This is a bit of a leap in my mind. Jenoptik wrote the firmware for the M8, so this agreement is probably more along the lines of making sure that they will help write the firmware for any future Leica digital cameras, as well as keep updating older cameras. Leica had a big problem with the DMR firmware, which Imacon developed, but then refused to update once they had merged with Hasselblad and become a camera company, not just a digital back company. It makes sense for them to sign some sort of agreement with Jenoptik, so that they don't get in that situation again. As for a Leica-Sinar collaboration...well, we can all dream, right?
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Re: Sinar M

    Thank you, Stuart. For a minute there I thought I had made up something or more likely, my memory had a short hickup!
    Love your site Stuart.

    Durr

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    Re: Sinar M

    Quote Originally Posted by durrIII View Post
    Has anyone used the Sinar M system? Could this be the rebanded Leica medium format?
    I have been using the Sinar-M for some time now.
    I use the M with my four AF Zeiss Sinaron lenses. I have just returned from Sinar in Switzerland and I was shown a new 28 mm. lens there: the M system is not dead.
    The Sinar-M with the AF Module is a Modular camera with a very fast and reliable AF, an option to use Hasselblad V lenses and a joy to use with a new side grip. The camera with the side grip is reasonably light and comfortable.
    INHO the ideology (right word?) of the Sinar M is opposite to the ideology of Leica-R (I own an old R4). I think about Sinar M as been a part of Sinar's studio system, a small and expensive part. The shutter module can be used on the Sinar-P3 view camera, you can use two types of battery grips, the camera uses almost the same advanced electronics as Hy6 does.
    I think the rumours are wrong. I cannot imagine a R camera with the same form factor and modularity as Sinar-M.
    IMO the cooperation between Leica and Jenoptik gives us a hope to get a good internal processing electronics and the AF on par with the Hy6 platform.
    Yevgeny

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    Re: Sinar M

    Yevgeny,
    How is the shutter vibration?
    Is it suitable for 4-shot 16-shot work?
    Billy

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    Re: Sinar M

    Hi, Billy
    The Sinar-M was designed to shoot 4 and 16 shot! And I cannot see any vibrations.
    When I bought my Sinar-M I had been shooting paintings with my Alpa or Rollei x-act. The purpose
    (or excuse) of the M was to shoot catalogues and full scale reproductions of paintings. Then I was able to buy a Sinarback 54H and started to adapt my lousy workflow to 16 shot mode. I had to buy some new Bron lights, a FOBA stand, remove some wood parquet from the floor and only than 16 shot became less of a challenge. I still have some bad shots in 16 shot mode, but 4 shot is almost perfect.
    The Makro 120mm AF lens is fantastic (perhaps I have a good copy).
    And you can use the P3 with HR CAB lenses....
    Yevgeny
    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Yevgeny,
    How is the shutter vibration?
    Is it suitable for 4-shot 16-shot work?
    Billy

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    Re: Sinar M

    Durr -- thank you very much for the comment on my website. I like your photos very much as well. Particularly the dancers!

    Yevgeny, we are very lucky to have you here. I don't think there are very many people around who have had the good fortune to use the Sinar M. It looks like an incredible system, but the prices are simply staggering. Some of the lenses alone cost more than digital backs like the CFV and ZD.
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Re: Sinar M

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    ....
    Sinar M. It looks like an incredible system, but the prices are simply staggering. Some of the lenses alone cost more than digital backs like the CFV and ZD.
    I agree, the system is expensive, almost prohibitively expensive. The 28mm (it is used without the AF Prism Module, on a Sinar lens plate) is being sold for US$12,000! It is twice the price of the same lens for ALPA.
    And it is almost impossible to sell the system, just zero second hand market! Well, for me the M looks like an old-fashioned marriage - for life.
    Yevgeny

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    Re: Sinar M

    How much is the basic Sinar M?
    Back in the day when I was using Sinar 8x10 p
    with DB lenses, I recall the digital shutter back then
    was about $3k.

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    Re: Sinar M

    The SinarBron USA price list is here:
    http://sinarbron.com/documents/Sinar_Pricing_2008.pdf

    I am sure there are deals to be had, but not 85% off!

    To give you an idea, the focusing screen set is 866 dollars.

    The Sinar M itself is listed at 8588, which I assume is the body only. I am not sure how many other things you need to put together a working camera, but it can't be under 10-15000. The 80mm lens is 6538, the 120/4 macro planar is 8156, 40mm distagon 12367 and so on.
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Re: Sinar M

    Man this system is priced to NOT sell. Who represents the market for such a system?

    Woody

  15. #15
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar M

    Not me I can afford this

    97-6935
    Neckstrap
    $103.00

    LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Sinar M

    I don't want to disparage the camera, because I am sure it is among the most capable camera systems that you can possibly buy, but I would be interested as to why, for example, the 40mm distagon lens is listed at more than double the cost of the 40mm distagon IF of the V mount. Is this even the latest optical formula (IF) or is it the older version? I do see that it has an AF module which will add a great deal to the cost, but it does seem incredibly steep.

    The 80mm...well, 6500 dollars for a lens that has the same optical formula as one you can get for under 500 dollars in V mount (80mm CT*)...
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar M

    This is the same with Alpa lenses. i can't figure out what a name really does to the lens to make it double the cost. The damn lens mount boards are just freaking metal. I honestly don't get it. 5200 for a lens that I can buy for cambo at 3600 . Same deal here with Alpa.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  18. #18
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar M

    The Sinar m is mostly and primarily used as a shutter system on the Sinar p3, together with the Sinaron Digital CAB lenses, in reproduction institutions like museums, libraries, art galleries, etc ...

    It is only later that the possibility to use the "m" body/shutter as a MF camera was made available, with the launch of the Zeiss Digital AF range of lenses and the MF mirror module. These AF lenses have been built in cooperation with Carl Zeiss. They are built with the latest and best possible optical formula, and are specially designed with the maximum resolving power and the best possible contrast rendition all the way to the edges of the image circle. Though these lenses are AF, the focus can also be adjusted manually with a very precise focusing ring.

    Below the 4 Zeiss Digital AF available and their recommended prices:

    Sinaron Digital AF Distagon 4.0/40 - Euro 4,665.-
    Sinaron Digital AF Planar 2.8/80 - Euro 2,409.-
    Sinaron Digital AF Macro-Planar 4/120 - Euro 3,018.-
    Sinaron Digital AF Sonnar 4.0/180 - Euro 3,628.-

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    I don't want to disparage the camera, because I am sure it is among the most capable camera systems that you can possibly buy, but I would be interested as to why, for example, the 40mm distagon lens is listed at more than double the cost of the 40mm distagon IF of the V mount. Is this even the latest optical formula (IF) or is it the older version? I do see that it has an AF module which will add a great deal to the cost, but it does seem incredibly steep.

    The 80mm...well, 6500 dollars for a lens that has the same optical formula as one you can get for under 500 dollars in V mount (80mm CT*)...

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    Re: Sinar M

    Thank you for the information Thierry. Do you know why there might be such a discrepancy between the European and the American pricing? The 40 distagon costs 6888 dollars in Europe, but 12300 in the US...that seems like it must be some kind of mistake...
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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  20. #20
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar M

    Hi Stuart,

    that's why I have published our recommended prices: US$ 12'300 seem a "little" over the top, despite the distribution network with dealers.

    I have checked but found no such prices listed on SBI's (Sinar's distributor) webpage.

    However, it might be interesting to read the technical details and features of this camera here:

    http://www.sinarbron.com/sinar/digital/mp1.php

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Thank you for the information Thierry. Do you know why there might be such a discrepancy between the European and the American pricing? The 40 distagon costs 6888 dollars in Europe, but 12300 in the US...that seems like it must be some kind of mistake...

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    Re: Sinar M

    Thank you Thierry. The price I listed is from the Sinar Bron website. If you go to Sinarbron.com and look at the bottom left, there is a link to the 2008 price list. On page 10, they list the costs of the Sinar M and the lenses. They are as I quoted them.
    The direct link to the pdf is here: http://sinarbron.com/documents/Sinar_Pricing_2008.pdf

    The prices you list seem much more reasonable and more in line with the rest of the market.
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
    My lab is here: http://www.customphotolab.is and on facebook

  22. #22
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar M

    Thanks Stuart, got it!

    I shall forward to the responsible at Sinar to have a look at it.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Thank you Thierry. The price I listed is from the Sinar Bron website. If you go to Sinarbron.com and look at the bottom left, there is a link to the 2008 price list. On page 10, they list the costs of the Sinar M and the lenses. They are as I quoted them.
    The direct link to the pdf is here: http://sinarbron.com/documents/Sinar_Pricing_2008.pdf

    The prices you list seem much more reasonable and more in line with the rest of the market.

  23. #23
    rainer-v
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    Re: Sinar M

    although the camera was designed for being used mainly in studio, now with the new battery grips ( which uses the same battery as the back ) the camera becomes perfectly hand holdable.
    together with the 28mm one has a fantastic wide angle camera. the shutter is working VERY quiet, and because you hold the camera with the new grip usually with both hands, sharp exposure times of 1/25 with the 40mm and 1/50 with the 80mm dont become occasionally sharp but nearly always.
    i never understood the fame of being so extreme expensive, here in EU prices are not far away from hassy or hy level. i use the camera for
    aerials and landscape work with good succes.

    the lenses are based on the same optics than their pendants, but it seems that they are different selected or in details different calculated.
    all of them are very sharp at full apertures,- which is a big plus compared with my contax 645 system if there is low light, the contax is otherwise great but some lenses arent sharp without stopping them down to f5,6 or even f8, e.g. the 140mm ( unfortunately i dont have the 120 which should be better herein ).

  24. #24
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar M

    hi Rainer,

    I was just "on my way" to write about the recently released Rodenstock 28mm HR and the new and small battery grip, but you have "won the race"!

    Anyway, Rainer is right, the slim battery grip using the same batteries as the eMotion backs makes it being a very light setup, much lighter than any other MF body.

    here some pics.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by rainer-v View Post
    although the camera was designed for being used mainly in studio, now with the new battery grips ( which uses the same battery as the back ) the camera becomes perfectly hand holdable.
    together with the 28mm one has a fantastic wide angle camera. the shutter is working VERY quiet, and because you hold the camera with the new grip usually with both hands, sharp exposure times of 1/25 with the 40mm and 1/50 with the 80mm dont become occasionally sharp but nearly always.
    i never understood the fame of being so extreme expensive, here in EU prices are not far away from hassy or hy level. i use the camera for
    aerials and landscape work with good succes.

    the lenses are based on the same optics than their pendants, but it seems that they are different selected or in details different calculated.
    all of them are very sharp at full apertures,- which is a big plus compared with my contax 645 system if there is low light, the contax is otherwise great but some lenses arent sharp without stopping them down to f5,6 or even f8, e.g. the 140mm ( unfortunately i dont have the 120 which should be better herein ).

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    Re: Sinar M

    Hi Thierry,

    A nice user friendly site for Sinar.

    What I would like to ask is:

    1. in looking at the Sinar M system page on your site - it seems that the system will also take non Sinar backs? How is this achieved?

    2. it seems that the system can cater for a variety of lens 'types' including Nikon and Hasselblad V. Are these lenses purchased from Sinar in a special mount or does the system allow the user to use their own lenses?

    Thanks

  26. #26
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar M

    hi Peter,

    thanks for your compliment concerning Sinar's site.

    to answer your questions:

    1. That is not implemented, respectively there are no adapters yet for third-party digital backs.

    2. Yes, Nikon lenses can be adapted with the Nikon mirror module: however that was meant for the use with Sinarbacks with smaller sensors, like the SB 22 (4 MPx), 23 (6 MPx), 43 (11 MPx) and 44 (16 MPx), has been has been discontinued due to the CCD's becoming bigger.

    3. Yes, all Hasselblad V lenses can be mounted by means of the Lens Module Hasselblad V (493.64.012)

    Best regards,
    Theirry

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Hi Thierry,

    A nice user friendly site for Sinar.

    What I would like to ask is:

    1. in looking at the Sinar M system page on your site - it seems that the system will also take non Sinar backs? How is this achieved?

    2. it seems that the system can cater for a variety of lens 'types' including Nikon and Hasselblad V. Are these lenses purchased from Sinar in a special mount or does the system allow the user to use their own lenses?

    Thanks

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    Re: Sinar M

    Ok thanks Thierry. Sinar makes some really beautiful things. I also note that prices for Hy6 are very different depending where you buy - *shakes head..have learned a lot about shopping around- teh Hy6 system isnt as silly expensive if one looks around. -

    I can tell you that the M system as well as the new Arcatec are both of interest technically - if only one could use the back(s) tehy have if you know what i mean..

    I still think the number #! best feature of any manufacturer is Sinar's changeable adaptors to suit any camera set-up.

    Let me know if there are any deals on refurbished 22 megapixel backs!



    Thanks again.

  28. #28
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    Re: Sinar M

    Well, those prices are steep but not like what was mentioned. Considering they are AF, and I'm sure made in very small quanities to very exacting standards, I could see a specialist footing the bill.

  29. #29
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar M

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Ok thanks Thierry. Sinar makes some really beautiful things. I also note that prices for Hy6 are very different depending where you buy - *shakes head..have learned a lot about shopping around- teh Hy6 system isnt as silly expensive if one looks around. -
    Thanks for the compliments. Yes, prices do vary from one country to another, however this might change in the very near future with Sinar publishing the prices and promotions on our webpage.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I can tell you that the M system as well as the new Arcatec are both of interest technically - if only one could use the back(s) tehy have if you know what i mean..
    Never give up hope, unlike the sub-title of this forum!


    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I still think the number #! best feature of any manufacturer is Sinar's changeable adaptors to suit any camera set-up.
    Yes, a nice feature and possibility, though I am thinking that we have many other advantages and interesting differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Let me know if there are any deals on refurbished 22 megapixel backs!
    Thanks again.
    We actually have re-furbished SB 54 H backs quite on a regular basis. As well, the eMotion 54 LV has been reduced in price by 40% recently.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

  30. #30
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar M

    hi Marc,

    yes, those lenses are really made in very small quantities to our demanding digital standards.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well, those prices are steep but not like what was mentioned. Considering they are AF, and I'm sure made in very small quanities to very exacting standards, I could see a specialist footing the bill.

  31. #31
    Natasa Stojsic
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    Re: Sinar M

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    to answer your questions:

    1. That is not implemented, respectively there are no adapters yet for third-party digital backs.

    2. Yes, Nikon lenses can be adapted with the Nikon mirror module: however that was meant for the use with Sinarbacks with smaller sensors, like the SB 22 (4 MPx), 23 (6 MPx), 43 (11 MPx) and 44 (16 MPx), has been has been discontinued due to the CCD's becoming bigger.

    3. Yes, all Hasselblad V lenses can be mounted by means of the Lens Module Hasselblad V (493.64.012)

    Best regards,
    Theirry
    Thierry, good to see you're back

    I agree with PeterA.., about adapters for other DB. makers. Could you see if they will make one, it shouldn't really be a huge deal to make it and of course like everything else they can name their price?

    I was going to ask you what is the deal with shutter speed and I read on the Sinar M page this.... Shutter speeds from 32 sec. to 1/2000 sec. Now there are no limitations to outdoor photography... what about indoor/Flash?

    Any updates about Photokina?

  32. #32
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar M

    Quote Originally Posted by Natasa Stojsic View Post
    Thierry, good to see you're back
    Thanks Natasa, but I was never "away"!


    Quote Originally Posted by Natasa Stojsic View Post
    I agree with PeterA.., about adapters for other DB. makers. Could you see if they will make one, it shouldn't really be a huge deal to make it and of course like everything else they can name their price?
    We are continuously discussing this issue. Especially for the arTec, if it's not Sinar, somebody else will almost certainly make them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Natasa Stojsic View Post
    I was going to ask you what is the deal with shutter speed and I read on the Sinar M page this.... Shutter speeds from 32 sec. to 1/2000 sec. Now there are no limitations to outdoor photography... what about indoor/Flash?
    Yes, 32 sec. to 1/2000th. Flash sync is limited to 1/100.

    Quote Originally Posted by Natasa Stojsic View Post
    Any updates about Photokina?
    Not yet, except that we will be there showing our new products, software solutions (MAC + PC) with possibility to take untethered "white shadings", the arTec will be presented and launched, after having undergone the last changes according to the beta-testers wishes, etc ...

    Best regards,
    Thierry

  33. #33
    Natasa Stojsic
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    Re: Sinar M

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Thanks Natasa, but I was never "away"!

    Thierry
    It just seem that way


    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    We are continuously discussing this issue. Especially for the arTec, if it's not Sinar, somebody else will almost certainly make them.
    Well, please make sure to let us now....



    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Yes, 32 sec. to 1/2000th. Flash sync is limited to 1/100.
    Thierry
    Is there any chance of Flash sync improvements and if not... why not?

    Thanks

  34. #34
    thsinar
    Guest

    Re: Sinar M

    Quote Originally Posted by Natasa Stojsic View Post
    It just seem that way
    There are times where my "help" is less needed, then I refrain from appearing. Then there are times like now, where you will see me posting tens of posts. Life is cruel!


    Quote Originally Posted by Natasa Stojsic View Post
    Well, please make sure to let us now....
    I certainly will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Natasa Stojsic View Post
    Is there any chance of Flash sync improvements and if not... why not?
    No way, limited by the shutter.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

  35. #35
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    Re: Sinar M

    Prices published on your web page I think is a great idea - this will be a positive I am sure.

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