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Thread: LCC with Capture One Questions

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    LCC with Capture One Questions

    A few quick questions on using a LCC. I have a Cambo WRS and use a variety of Digital and Rodie lenses.

    Does it make any difference if you use the shinny or matte side?

    When using a polarizer filter, should you keep the polarizer on or remove it before taking the LCC reading?

    When using a graduated Neutral Density filter, I am assuming you remove it before taking the LCC reading?

    In Capture One in the lens correction tool, what is the "analyze (technical wideangle) dropdown for?

    Thanks,

    Tim

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by timwier View Post
    Does it make any difference if you use the shinny or matte side?
    The matte side is meant to face towards the digital back. It is meant to reduce the chance of reflection of the lens itself in the LCC panel. I've only seen it make a difference in real life once. Generally speaking you can simply not worry about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by timwier View Post
    When using a polarizer filter, should you keep the polarizer on or remove it before taking the LCC reading?
    I don't have enough hands-on experience to fully/confidently answer question. However, my strong inclination is to capture the LCC with the polarizer in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by timwier View Post
    When using a graduated Neutral Density filter, I am assuming you remove it before taking the LCC reading?
    Definitely remove the grad. ND filter prior to capturing the LCC. Otherwise the LCC will fight against the very effect the ND filter is being used for.

    Quote Originally Posted by timwier View Post
    In Capture One in the lens correction tool, what is the "analyze (technical wideangle) dropdown for?
    The Schneider wide angles which seat the rear lens element extremely very close to the sensor can generate a ripple effect when combined with digital backs with very small pixel sizes. Generally speaking this means the 24XL, 28XL, 35XL, 43XL, and 47XL when used with the IQ140/160/180 P40/65+, Mamiya DM40/56/80, and Leaf Aptus II 8/10/12. The widest lenses (24/28/35) and the smallest pixel sizes (DM80, IQ180, Aptus II 12) are the most extreme examples.

    The "wide angle" drop down option is specific to those combinations and will lead to better results and allow using parts of the image circle which would otherwise not be acceptable with a traditional LCC.

    When in doubt select "wide angle" as I've not seen any negative effects when using it on images that don't neccessarily need it.

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Feeling real stupid here, what does LCC mean?

    Silly Po!

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    LCC = Lens Cast Correction which used to correct color cast on lens shift or light fall off on wide angle lens.

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by yatlee View Post
    LCC = Lens Cast Correction which used to correct color color on lens shift or light fall off on wide angle lens.
    Thank you Mr. Lee!
    I love your photos btw

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    You mentioned " definitely Remote the grad before applying the LCC. But how about the Centre Filter which technically is a grad Filter . I Would assume it should be used in conjunction with the LCC so not so much work is needed to correct fall off once the CF is used.
    I tested it recently please see post # 5 here:
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29887
    Thanks
    Grischa

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    The matte side is meant to face towards the digital back. It is meant to reduce the chance of reflection of the lens itself in the LCC panel. I've only seen it make a difference in real life once. Generally speaking you can simply not worry about it.



    I don't have enough hands-on experience to fully/confidently answer question. However, my strong inclination is to capture the LCC with the polarizer in place.



    Definitely remove the grad. ND filter prior to capturing the LCC. Otherwise the LCC will fight against the very effect the ND filter is being used for.



    The Schneider wide angles which seat the rear lens element extremely very close to the sensor can generate a ripple effect when combined with digital backs with very small pixel sizes. Generally speaking this means the 24XL, 28XL, 35XL, 43XL, and 47XL when used with the IQ140/160/180 P40/65+, Mamiya DM40/56/80, and Leaf Aptus II 8/10/12. The widest lenses (24/28/35) and the smallest pixel sizes (DM80, IQ180, Aptus II 12) are the most extreme examples.

    The "wide angle" drop down option is specific to those combinations and will lead to better results and allow using parts of the image circle which would otherwise not be acceptable with a traditional LCC.

    When in doubt select "wide angle" as I've not seen any negative effects when using it on images that don't neccessarily need it.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    you are correct, keep the CF on for LCC if you used the CF for your capture.

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    you are correct, keep the CF on for LCC if you used the CF for your capture.
    +1

    Exactly , because that is the way you shot your image . With the CF .
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by rupho View Post
    You mentioned "definitely Remote the grad before applying the LCC". But how about the Centre Filter which technically is a grad Filter . I Would assume it should be used in conjunction with the LCC so not so much work is needed to correct fall off once the CF is used.
    Yes, sorry for not being clear. You are absolutely right that technically a CF is a graduated filter (specifically a radially graduated density filter). My comments were specific to the top-to-bottom grad filters used most often in landscape to reduce the brightness difference between the sky and ground.

    Leave any CF in place. As you state it reduces (or eliminates) the fall-off of the lens and thereby reduces the amount of "work" the LCC routine has to do.

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    I could use some advice about LCC workflow. Typically, I'll set up an image, maybe a test shot or two, then using the diffuser and a couple of stops more exposure with the shutter, shoot the LCC frame.

    when processing, the LCC is conveniently next to the appropriate image, but i may not remember the details of the shot, like shift, tilt, which way, even the lens fl. I select the LCC frame, choose "analyse" with or without dust removal, maybe the wide angle option, then i have to give the file a name...like "43mm 5mm shift down"

    when processing the image, i select that name from the pulldown list.

    can these LCC files be stored with the session? I have already started to generate a pretty sloppy list and it seems like there is going to be a pile of redundancy

    my camera is the cambo, so there is no auto metadata recording lens type, for example

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    can these LCC files be stored with the session? I have already started to generate a pretty sloppy list and it seems like there is going to be a pile of redundancy
    I'm glad someone else finds LCC file storage in Capture One sloppy.

    Some months ago, I posted this on the C1 forums and it didn't seem to generate much of a reaction, possibly because most don't shoot tech cameras. I then decided to open a support ticket for a feature request that LCC files should be made session independent and we get an extra folder along with the capture, trash etc folders for LCC. That way, the LCC's remain with the session and the options available under the LCC tab doesn't just grow and grow and grow like at present.

    The response from Phase was the standard, "We'll pass my suggestion on for a possible future version on C1"

    I suggest anyone who also feels strongly about LCC file storage in C1 to also open a support ticket feature request at Phase for LCC session independence and if enough of us request it, possibly Phase will listen and prioritise this feature implementation.

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I then decided to open a support ticket for a feature request that LCC files should be made session independent and we get an extra folder along with the capture, trash etc folders for LCC. That way, the LCC's remain with the session and the options available under the LCC tab doesn't just grow and grow and grow like at present.

    The response from Phase was the standard, "We'll pass my suggestion on for a possible future version on C1"
    I did the same and they came up with the, excuse me, extremely stupid response that I can manually move or delete my LCC profiles. It seems to me that they have no idea what it means to have a white shot for each and every exposure.

    Chris

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Hmm, someone at Phase One just didn't get it did they? That's a very ill informed reply from them by someone who has no clue about technical camera shooting.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    +1
    I could not agree more
    Why can't LCCs stay within the capture folder?
    It will make the absolute clutter of LCCs obsolete but also make it easier to move a capture folder from let's say laptop to desktop

    And the worst of all is the fact that C1 does not allow for batch processing of LCCs , which IMHO is the most furstrating aspect and a big time waster.


    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I'm glad someone else finds LCC file storage in Capture One sloppy.

    Some months ago, I posted this on the C1 forums and it didn't seem to generate much of a reaction, possibly because most don't shoot tech cameras. I then decided to open a support ticket for a feature request that LCC files should be made session independent and we get an extra folder along with the capture, trash etc folders for LCC. That way, the LCC's remain with the session and the options available under the LCC tab doesn't just grow and grow and grow like at present.

    The response from Phase was the standard, "We'll pass my suggestion on for a possible future version on C1"

    I suggest anyone who also feels strongly about LCC file storage in C1 to also open a support ticket feature request at Phase for LCC session independence and if enough of us request it, possibly Phase will listen and prioritise this feature implementation.

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by rupho View Post
    And the worst of all is the fact that C1 does not allow for batch processing of LCCs , which IMHO is the most furstrating aspect and a big time waster.
    I had opened a support case for this as well - I have been told it's being considered for a future version of C1.

    But as Gareth wrote above: Perhaps it helps if more people ask for this feature via support case. The lack of batch processing demonstrates that the PhaseOne software engineers never actually used LCCs. Half a day with a tech cam and LCCs should be enough to show them that the current work flow is a nuisance. (Having said this, I really appreciate the recent improvements in the LCC analysis.)

    Chris

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by cly View Post
    But as Gareth wrote above: Perhaps it helps if more people ask for this feature via support case.
    Yes, so PLEASE all who read this thread and feel the same pains about LCC in C1, go to the Phase One website and in the support section open a support ticket as a feature request. The Phase dev team may then realise how many of us feel and we might get something done about it. Phase do listen to users but the occasional eccentric tech camera user just doesn't have a voice amongst all those Phmamiya users.

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Agreed, as it sits the LCC storage protocol is borderline stupid. there is no good reason it should not be inside the sessions. Then we should have an option to store a GENERIC LCC library in the existing fashion.

    It is absurd to open up the LCC you want to apply and have a list of several hundred to sort through. My current workaround is I leave the image name as the LCC name, and in this way, my most recent LCC is always at the bottom of the list.
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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Not a total solution for all of the concerns aired here but the EIP format does go a long way to dealing with moving LCCs along with the raw files.

    See: What the heck is EIP


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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Not a total solution for all of the concerns aired here but the EIP format does go a long way to dealing with moving LCCs along with the raw files.
    Valid point Doug if you need to move images but it doesn't address the ever swelling list of LCC files and as presently implemented goes totally against the "Sessions" ethos. (did we all get our latest image professor email from Phase?)

    And I quote from the blog:

    "Create a new Session for every new event, trip or job. This will help you keep all relevant images, image corrections and processed images within one physical folder."

    ........ well not if you're a tech/LCC shooter Phase.

    So Doug, could you please have a word with the Phase dev guys for us would you.

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    The matte side is meant to face towards the digital back. It is meant to reduce the chance of reflection of the lens itself in the LCC panel. I've only seen it make a difference in real life once. Generally speaking you can simply not worry about it.



    I don't have enough hands-on experience to fully/confidently answer question. However, my strong inclination is to capture the LCC with the polarizer in place.



    Definitely remove the grad. ND filter prior to capturing the LCC. Otherwise the LCC will fight against the very effect the ND filter is being used for.



    The Schneider wide angles which seat the rear lens element extremely very close to the sensor can generate a ripple effect when combined with digital backs with very small pixel sizes. Generally speaking this means the 24XL, 28XL, 35XL, 43XL, and 47XL when used with the IQ140/160/180 P40/65+, Mamiya DM40/56/80, and Leaf Aptus II 8/10/12. The widest lenses (24/28/35) and the smallest pixel sizes (DM80, IQ180, Aptus II 12) are the most extreme examples.

    The "wide angle" drop down option is specific to those combinations and will lead to better results and allow using parts of the image circle which would otherwise not be acceptable with a traditional LCC.

    When in doubt select "wide angle" as I've not seen any negative effects when using it on images that don't neccessarily need it.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    I keep the polarizing filter attached when taking my LCC shot...

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Agreed, as it sits the LCC storage protocol is borderline stupid. there is no good reason it should not be inside the sessions. Then we should have an option to store a GENERIC LCC library in the existing fashion.

    It is absurd to open up the LCC you want to apply and have a list of several hundred to sort through. My current workaround is I leave the image name as the LCC name, and in this way, my most recent LCC is always at the bottom of the list.
    Jack,

    I agree that a two tier approach to LCCs would work well. I have to do the same as you and gave up on labeling my LCCs in favor of just using the file name instead. With the file name approach I know that the LCC will be close to my original image vs sorted in the list. However, it would be useful to have a global set of LCCs available.

    Let us store LCCs with the session only and then have the open of storing a global set for all sessions as well.

    I don't shoot an LCC for every shot but I do shoot one for each setup (I.e. each rise/fall setting or stitch pairs). You very quickly end up with an LCC list with hundreds of images in it which becomes unmanageable and a poor user interface for such a fundamental step in technical camera workflow.

    I need to create the feature request for this as well, along with an FR for the ability to have each digital back use a different filename prefix. (If you upgrade your PhaseOne back or have more than one then you run into filename overlaps and there's no clean way to fix it other than rename on import).
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    So Doug, could you please have a word with the Phase dev guys for us would you.
    Indeed I had the chance to sit down with the leads of the Dev team for C1 in Denmark and told them - in no unclear terms - that faster and more efficient workflow for our customers that use LCC on every frame (i.e. tech camera shooters) was Capture Integration's #1 request (though obviously not our only request). They were extremely attentive and took notes on the specifics of my specific ideas/suggestions; they immediately acknowledged they were aware of the inefficiencies as-is and it was great to see that they didn't just brush it off with "o yeah we know" but rather they enthusiastically gathered opinions on specifically what should be done and were arguing (in the positive sense of the word) with me on where the inefficiencies were and how they should be improved. These are passionate guys who are both professionally and personally very interested in improving C1.

    I've found that Phase, as a smaller and more accessible company that most software giants, is extremely responsive to such user input. The frustration usually comes that it often takes 12-18 months for them to implement such input. That can make them feel unresponsive whereas the reality is simply that the roadmap for complex software is laid out significantly in advance and features are not (and should not) be thrown in last minute - so suggestions usually don't make it into the next release but rather the release after.

    Tech camera use has (from my exposure to the markets that Capture Integration is involved in) exploded in the last 18 months and accelerated further in the last 6 months (stimulated by the availability of the IQ Series and less expensive Leaf/Mamiya backs). So hopefully we'll see some advancement in LCC workflow in the next version. I know Phase One is very aware that LCC could be a faster/easier workflow, so it's more an issue of resources and time than anything else. From this point of view the more users make support cases with such feature requests the more priority it will be given.

    I don't want to sound like a shill, but I think it is worth noting that the LCC tool in C1 is the fastest, highest quality, most versatile color cast tool I am aware of in any software. That's no reason they shouldn't work hard to make it faster, easier, and more efficient - especially for high-volume-LCC-users. But it is worth saying.

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I don't want to sound like a shill, but I think it is worth noting that the LCC tool in C1 is the fastest, highest quality, most versatile color cast tool I am aware of in any software. That's no reason they shouldn't work hard to make it faster, easier, and more efficient - especially for high-volume-LCC-users. But it is worth saying.
    Doug,

    Thanks for this. I think we'd all agree that the LCC processing works extremely well (absolutely no complaints there!) but the file organization leaves, erm, a little to be desired!

    Being in the software game myself I recognize the dev and release time for big product features that affect the UI in particular. What would be nice though would be the occasional sharing of roadmap information by Phase One so that when features are requested we don't feel like we're howling into the wind.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: LCC with Capture One Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I don't want to sound like a shill, but I think it is worth noting that the LCC tool in C1 is the fastest, highest quality, most versatile color cast tool I am aware of in any software. That's no reason they shouldn't work hard to make it faster, easier, and more efficient - especially for high-volume-LCC-users. But it is worth saying.
    I don't think any tech camera user would disagree with you on that one as C1 is a brilliant, high quality tool for LCC use and the main reason why I chose Phase One backs over Hasselblad.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Being in the software game myself I recognize the dev and release time for big product features that affect the UI in particular. What would be nice though would be the occasional sharing of roadmap information by Phase One so that when features are requested we don't feel like we're howling into the wind.
    Hi Graham, Phase did used to give a road map of feature release on their user support forums but after a spate of missed deadlines resulted is a number of unhappy and angry users they stopped giving out that information. We all loved C1 version 3 but remember waiting for version 4Pro and Canon 1Ds3 support? I recall that as my painful and trying Lightroom period!

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