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Thread: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

  1. #51
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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    Hi guys,

    Nearly four years on from the last post of this thread, what is the verdict on the Rodenstock 70mm vs. Schneider 72mm? I thought I saw a thread started on this recently, but can't seem to find it.

    Some background...

    I have just finalised a deal on a Leaf Credo 60 to use on my Linhof Techno. I have been using the Techno for three years with film, using a Rodenstock 55mm APO–Sironar Digital and 90mm HR-W (blue band.) I've been scanning with my Imacon 949. I will use these two lenses with the Credo initially, but ideally I'd want to replicate the angle of view of each of these lenses on 6x7cm film with the 60mpx Dalsa sensor. So... My ideal setup would be the Rodie 40HR and the Rodie 70 or SK72.

    My question can really be broken down into three parts:

    1: If pushing to the edge of the image circle, does either fall off in sharpness in an objectionable way?
    2: If making use of a good portion of the image circle with movements, is either better in terms of colour cast and falloff if using C1 8 and performing LCC shots? This in terms of the Dalsa 60mpx sensor.
    3: Does the SK require a centre filter for best performance, or could I get away without one?

    While both are reasonably priced lenses when mounted in a Technika board, the SK is a bit cheaper.

    Looking forward to contributing some digital discussions soon!

    TJV

  2. #52
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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    No one can comment on the above? Anders Torger has sent me some great test shots taken with the 72mm SK on his H50 and they look good, but I wonder how much better the Rodie is in terms of colour casts and micro lens ripple, etc. The only problem I see with the Rodie compared to the SK 60mm XL is the IC of the 60mm would allow much more head room for stictching and movements. But how far can you realistically push the 60mm on a Dalsa 60mpx chip (Credo 60) and not run into unrecoverable lens casts, etc?

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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    I can only speak to the 60XL. On a 60MP Dalsa 20mm of shift is easy and I have gone to 25mm. I use the CF when shifting past 10mm.

    The 60XL is sharp to the edge to 18mm of shift and needs a bit more sharpening on extreme shift. However the color cast is very mild and no real issues with detail smearing.

    The 60XL does show a bit of micro lens ripple but nowhere as bad as the 35XL or 43XL.

    I would assume the 70 HR-W is similar but it's not going to shift as far especially since Rodenstock puts the IC indicator in the lens which creates a hard vignette.

    I also assume the 70mm would show less micro lens ripple due to the retro focus design.
    Over the 72mm.

    72mm should be lighter and more compact as all the Schneiders tend to be.

    Paul
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  4. #54
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    My experience is the 72 exhibits almost no color cast on the IQ180 and even less on the p65+. While I use an LCC most of the time on my 72, it is more habit than necessary.

    Both the 72 and 70 are softer at the extreme edges which will be acceptable to some and objectional to others. Personally I shift 15mm routinely and 20mm in a pinch with very little trouble correcting in post.

    It's more taste than anything when choosing between the two. My experience has been the 72 is better wide open, the 70 better stopped down past f11. The rendering follows the brand with the 70 seeming slightly more natural but I prefer the in your face details of the 72 and tweak in post with a .2 blur about 15% to give a more natural film look.

    Both are excellent but my 72 has literally been with me to hell and back and is my most used lens by a factor of 2-3. Primarily because I see in the same AOV.
    Ed Cooley Fine Art Photography
     
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  5. #55
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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    Thanks, Paul. I'll be honest and say that I don't really know what microlens ripple actually looks like, but have done a lot of reading about how far I can resonably expect to push the Dalsa sensor with movements. This is the main reason I went with the 60mpx sensor over the 80mpx, although truth be told if money were not object I'd get a Credo 80 in a heartbeat!

    In terms of the Rodie 70mm vs. the SK 60mm XL, I keep coming back to the 60XL as a no brainer in a two lens kit with the 40HR if one is interested in stitching at that FL. The 70mm would suit me better in terms of a lens for single shot, but I'd like the option to stitch 6x12 panoramas that also employ some fall of the back, something like the 8mm integrated into the Technorama 612PCII. The 70mm would run out of image circle, as you say. It's a connundrum, but perhaps I've answered my own question, with your help. I.e., the 60XL is the natural option for these requirements and, as is the natural way in this forum, also buy the Rodie 70mm!

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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    Thanks, Ed. Yes, the samples Anders sent through taken with the 72mm were great, if a tad soft at the edges. Seems to me if one is looking for a 70mm lens, it's a toss up between the two, really. One is a little softer in the extremes of the IC, the other has a stupid hard disk to limit your ability to shift! The 72mm is certainly cheaper, I'll say that much.

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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    I can only speak to the 60XL. On a 60MP Dalsa 20mm of shift is easy and I have gone to 25mm. I use the CF when shifting past 10mm.

    The 60XL is sharp to the edge to 18mm of shift and needs a bit more sharpening on extreme shift. However the color cast is very mild and no real issues with detail smearing.

    Paul
    Your comments above are very helpful when shifting to extremes on the 60XL.

    I am considering a 60XL (and possible Alpa STC that has maximum 18mm rise).

    BUT - a key difference, for me, is that I may use a 6x7 FILM back initially. Probably with Adox 20 - which is mega-high resolution film.

    The maximum 18mmm rise would take a film back right to the VERY VERY edge of the 60XL's 115mm IC. i.e., no room to spare whatsoever.

    Is there any data or user knowledge on how the 60XL performs at the VERY limits of its IC? When you refer to 25mm shift on the 60XL is that taking it to the VERY VERY edge on the Dalsa?

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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    I have actually used the new 60XL on 6x7cm film and shifted to about 13mm using my Linhof Techno. It's an absolutely fantastic lens and the only reason I don't still have it in my gear bag is that it was loaned to me by Paula at Linhof Studio while I was waiting to receive a Rodenstock 55mm APO-Sironar Digital. After using the 60XL, I didn't want to send it back but ultimately had to because I didn't have enough money to cover the shortfall between lenses. I haven't yet used the 55mm on my (yet to be received) Credo 60, so will report back on how that performs soon.

    Anyway, if you're thinking of using it on 6x7 I'd jump on it. Plenty of room for movements, at least in my experience.

  9. #59
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    I have both the 70hr and the 60xl. The 60 is just so versatile with the wonderfully large and sharp image circle. I agree that as a single focal length the 70/72 is a better choice. I recently picked up a used TC and the 70 sits on that all the time.

    Honestly I would leave the 40hr behind before I ditch the 60xl. I think it is a perfect match with the 90mm focal length.

    Dave

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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Warwick View Post
    Is there any data or user knowledge on how the 60XL performs at the VERY limits of its IC? When you refer to 25mm shift on the 60XL is that taking it to the VERY VERY edge on the Dalsa?
    Jon,
    I shift 18 mm with a 54x40 sensor (IQ180). I use both orientations: vertical which gives a 54x76 - 93mm diagonal. Horizontal which gives a 40x89 image - 97mm diagonal. I think there are 4 lenses that can handle that diagonal without edge degradation: 60xl, 90hrsw, sk120 and sk150.

    You are talking about essentially a 56x108 image - 121mm diagonal. Film would be a little more forgiving, but I think that is a lot to expect.

    I will be demo-ing a MAX next week. If you like I could try to shoot a few extreme shifts and send you the raw files.

    Dave
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  11. #61
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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    Yes, I think the 60XL paired with a 90mm and 40mm would be a great three lens kit. I have the 90 HR-W and 55 APO-SD, and depending on how the 55mm performs on the Credo 60 I might just add the 70HR and 40HR to fill the gaps instead of get the 60XL. I'm sure the 60 is better, especially off center with movements that the 55mm, but I'm interested to see or hear how much better. The 55mm has a massive IC, but will it be up to snuff? The 40HR is the only lens I'm truely resolved to get, but the 70HR is looking very attractive if the 55mm performs well enough, and I'd save a bit of cash.

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    I have both the 70hr and the 60xl. The 60 is just so versatile with the wonderfully large and sharp image circle. I agree that as a single focal length the 70/72 is a better choice. I recently picked up a used TC and the 70 sits on that all the time.

    Honestly I would leave the 40hr behind before I ditch the 60xl. I think it is a perfect match with the 90mm focal length.

    Dave

    Dave

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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    I agree the Rodenstock 55mm is priced well, but it might limit you on shifts.

    I can't remember what the IC of the 55mm is, I believe it's in the HR series of lenses with the pink band? No matter, it will still have the IC indicator, as all Rodenstock glass has this, thus you will not be able to use the full IC to full frame. As you begin to hit the edge, the IC indicator will start to show up as a hard dark vignette and thus your top edge and bottom edge will be ruined. You can't recover this. On some lenses, the 28mm, the 32mm for sure, you will get a lighter white band right before the dark band IC shows up. This white band also effects the image quality and can effect a blue sky. If you are shooting in a wooded area then the lighter band will not show.

    Net, to me, if you want max shift, which I do, the 60XL is a better solution. This is true especially on the 60MP Dalsa chips or the 50MP Kodaks. In fact the 60XL would be an excellent shifting lens for the 50MP Kodak chip which has no seam lines.

    Someone asked about micro lens ripple. Yes the Schneiders will show this a bit more but I saw it worse with the 35XL and 43XL, and only on 12mm to 15mm of shift on the 43XL. Micro lens ripple will show up as a series of dark vertical bands towards the edge of your shifted shots, you won't see it on center shots. The bands are hard, and very well defined about 1/8 of an inch apart. The LCC before correction will show them but you will also see them on the actual shot. Most times the LCC will correct these. The 60XL does not seem to get the ripple issue as much as the wider Schneiders.

    Whereas Rodenstock, as good as they are, really limit your shift due to the fact they put the IC indicator in the lens.

    For example, the 28mm, would easily get to 10mm of shift, I have shifted it that far. However you hit the IC indicator by 5mm due to the 70mm IC thus your tops corner and bottom corner on the 10mm shift are pure black. And the IC indicator will effect some more of the image near it, making it very hard to recover.

    If you want rise/fall, the IC indicator will not cause as much problems on the Phase backs, due to their layout. You can take the 28mm to around 7mm of rise before you start to see the hard vignette, but I don't use rise fall that much.

    The old review on this site of the 28mm's Schneider and Rodenstock shows the examples of what the IC indicator does to your shifted corners.

    Paul

  13. #63
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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    Thanks again, Paul.
    I've shifted the 55mm 20mm on 6x7cm film and not seen the limiting disk, so I'm guessing it'll do fine for large stitching shifts on digital. However, I'm more concerned about how sharp it is off centre. The 60mm is surely much better in this regard.

  14. #64
    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    Tjv, I have the SK 72 L + Credo 60 combo, so if you would like a raw with specific movements - just tell me the specs and I'll shoot it!
    Alpa FPS MAX TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com
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  15. #65
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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    Dan, that's a great offer, thank you!

    Essentially, I'd love to see how it would perform if I wanted to stitch a 1:2 (6x12 equiv.) panoramic, with a little bit of fall of the back. So, on the 60, I calculate the max I'd need is 14mm in each direction horizontally, plus about 5-6mm back fall. I don't think this is too extreme, but going by the Digital Transitions visualiser, it's past the listed IC of the lens. Other problem is that the sliding back I have for my Linhof Techno only has horizontal shift / stitching detents for 17mm in each direction, so I'm stuck with that and can't go inbetween. I guess that would just mean I'd crop though and wouldn't be a big deal, as I'm gaining resolution not losing it with the stitch.

    To give you an idea of what I shoot, I'd loosely describe it as urban landscape and architecture, although I call myself a documentary photographer. I'm usually shooting things at middle to long distances if I want that aspect ratio. If you do have time to shoot something to show me how this lens performs, I'd be extremely grateful to see any kind of street scene with good detail to inspect at the edge of the frame.

    I'm writing this in the hope of the SK 72mm lens fitting the bill (the size, price and general performance are attractive,) but the Rodenstock 70mm has an advertised IC that would handle the above, all be it by hitting the limiting disk when I slide the back to the 17mm detent. Does C1 let you LCC a calibration shot that has a hard, black edge in it, or does it throw it out like in Phocus with Hasselblad backs?

    Thanks again for your generous offer,

    Tim.

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    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    No probs.
    I shoot lots of 2:1 since that is a favourite aspect ratio for me and 14mm left/right is exactly what I do in horizontal movement. I'll include a simultanous vertical shift of 6mm and send you both left/right raw + lcc. Unfortunately both today and tomorrow is completely full in the agenda but should be able to do this on Wednesday
    Alpa FPS MAX TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com
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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    Thanks Dan, that's very generous of you! Hopefully one day I can repay the favour!
    Tim

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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    Incredible! I actually made an effort to get you an urban 2:1 at mid distance. Took the gear and went into town, difficult to park and then walked a bit until I found a nice spot with a modern building. Set up everything and took the first shot. Blurred. Oh no....I had just grabbed the lens and the 17 extension wasn't attached......
    Well, nothing to do. I went back home, but then the light was terrible and the golfcourse is under repair so everything is only so-so from our terrace...
    Anyway, even if the image is boring and the light is boring, maybe it can give you some guidance still. Unfortunately I have tried several ways of converting high res to 'goodlooking' web images but nothing works, so my webimages look much worse than they should.
    I have a zipfile with raw left +lcc + right + lcc. It weighs 240mb and if you pm your email I can 'wetransfer' it to you for your own scrutinizing.

    The specs were: 1/2 second exposure (lcc 1 sec), f8, iso 50, 14mm left with simultaneous 6mm lens fall, 14mm right with simultaneous 6mm lens fall. Focus was measured on the tractor in the middle at 176 metres, scale on HPF before infinity goes all the way to 202 metres.




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  19. #69
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    Re: Schneider 72 vs Rodenstock 70

    Awesome, thanks Dan! I'll PM you now!

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