Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

[johnnygoesdigital]

The battery issue should cause Phase to take note. It would seem that if the voltage drops below a certain point, the same experience will continue. Personally, I would be quite annoyed (#*!!!), if I spent these ridiculous amounts for a Phase camera/DB and praised it for not breaking after 400 captures!

 

[Jack]

FTR, Phase is REALLY CLEAR that if using rechargeable AA's, you need to use ones with at least 2400 mAh capacity, and I have followed that recommendation -- might explain why I've been luckier than others with this issue.

 

[Craig Stocks]

It's been about a month since my original post. Thanks to all who've offered suggestions. I just got my body updated to firmware 1.25 yesterday. Unfotunately, I hasn't fixed the problem for me. I did make it through over 100 activations, but then it locked up and I had to do the battery dance to unlock it.

I'm already using the recommended batteries, and all were fully charged at the time. I'm eagerly waiting information about the next firmware update that is supposed to address the issue.

 

[GrahamWelland]

Craig

I haven't used my DF for a few weeks as i mainly use my Alpa but my body & IQ with the same versions as you also still crashes. I had three lock ups on Monday in 150 shots.

 

[multigary]

I had an opportunity to discuss the mirror lock up issue last week with Claus Molgaard, Vice President of Research and Development at Phase One. He assured me that they are working on a fix, which he said should happen before the end of the year. His explanation of why they think it happens is interesting. He claims they have determined that it is timing problem, related to the sleep mode of the back. If (when in mirror up mode) the shutter is released just at the moment the back is going to sleep, it will lock up. He thinks it may be that the shooting style of some users makes the problem more or less obvious. In other words, if you happen to press the shutter release lightly before actually making an exposure, you would be preventing the back from going to sleep before actually releasing the shutter, thus avoiding the bad timing scenario that triggers the lock up. If you shoot without first lightly depressing the shutter release, you run the risk of coincidentally pressing the shutter release at precisely the moment the back is going to sleep, which is what causes the problem. I haven't tried out this theory yet, but I hope he is correct.
He also said battery amperage has nothing to do with the problem, although using depleted batteries may exacerbate the situation. Also, he mentioned that they will be coming out with a rechargeable battery pack as an option for use instead of the AA batteries.
I'm curious if those who have minimal lock up problems tend to routinely wake up the back with a light depression before firing the shutter? I know I usually don't, so I'm hopeful that adopting this habit will help until they fully resolve the issue.

 

[Wayne Fox]

While I won't disagree this can "cause" it, there is something else going on. I've had the the problem on the 2nd or later shot of a bracket several times. Very maddening because to get it fixed, something is bound to change too far so you have to shoot the entire bracket over. Back is certainly not trying to go to sleep.

And despite what he says about the battery, I just spent 2 weeks shooting on Maui, with fresh energizer ultimate Lithium batteries, and this only happened once (which could have been from the sleep issue). Since I've started using the ultimate Lithiums the problem has been extremely rare. So maybe the batteries have eliminated the causes down to the one he describes, but in my case the batteries definitely are involved.

 

[kdphotography]

I agree with with Wayne that the batteries (power) are involved or at least a factor. I don't use rechargeables in my DF. I just have to remind myself not to be a too cheap of an SOB and monitor and replace my Energizer Lithium AAs instead of just running them into the ground... Knock on wood---hasn't happened again since the first/only time.

 

[Craig Stocks]

I'm glad to hear a fix is expected soon. Frankly, I'm skeptical that the batteries are much of a factor - if at all. The mAh rating just specifies how long the battery will last, and the battery type (chemistry) dertermines the voltage. It appears that people using all sorts of batteries have had the issue, and there's not a battery type/brand that's used many people who've never had the problem.

I do suspect that timing is part of the problem. I've noticed that I can rarely create the problem just shooting frames in the studio to check it out. But, when I'm actually standing in front of a sunset taking real frames, it will lock up after somewhere between one to 20 activations. (Then I swear under my breath, do the battery dance, switch off MUP mode and continue shooting hoping that camera vibration won't ruin the image.)

Maybe the camera is devious enough that it knows when I'm taking an important picture and hangs up at just the right time. But, it's more likely that there something I do differently when I'm in the field shooting versus just triggering the camera. It could be the way I check the histogram, or simply my natural shooting cadence in the field.

Whatever it is, I'm curious to hear what actually causes the problem, and very eager to get it fixed.

 

[GrahamWelland]

Maybe the camera is devious enough that it knows when I'm taking an important picture and hangs up at just the right time.

it's Hasselblad's contribution to the Mamiya/Phase One firmware. There is image recognition technology that checks for scenic good light images and then triggers the lock up exception. :ROTFL:

On a more serious note, I too find that the lockup doesn't seem to be related only to sensor wake up. I changed to Ken's Lithium battery recommendation and it seems to have reduced the frequency of lock ups although of course this might just be wishful thinking.

 

[Wayne Fox]

I'm glad to hear a fix is expected soon. Frankly, I'm skeptical that the batteries are much of a factor - if at all. The mAh rating just specifies how long the battery will last, and the battery type (chemistry) dertermines the voltage. It appears that people using all sorts of batteries have had the issue, and there's not a battery type/brand that's used many people who've never had the problem.

Well, the two posts above your's both stated once moving to Energizer Lithiums the problems have almost resolved. I had the problems often until using those, and when I start getting problems changing to new batteries resolve them.

Battery voltage does drop as the battery is depleted, as well as the draw on the battery. I believe most battery indicators are based on the current output voltage. The lithium batteries made by Everready, while expensive have 3 times the capacity of alkaline and are affected much less by cold weather. I have had much better success with these, while having frequent problems before.

 

[kdphotography]

it's Hasselblad's contribution to the Mamiya/Phase One firmware. There is image recognition technology that checks for scenic good light images and then triggers the lock up exception. :ROTFL:

On a more serious note, I too find that the lockup doesn't seem to be related only to sensor wake up. I changed to Ken's Lithium battery recommendation and it seems to have reduced the frequency of lock ups although of course this might just be wishful thinking.

Apparently the Hassey Image Recognition DF lock-up virus has difficulty working with Energizer Lithium AAs...

 

[Craig Stocks]

Yes, some posts stated that switching to Energizer Lithiums helped, while others have said that switching to Maha Imedion or Sanyo Eneloop (both low discharge NiMH batteries) helped. So far, I haven't heard anyone say "when I switched to XYZ battery the problem completely went away" which is why I'm skeptical.

I am curious about the V-Grip since it provides a completely different power supply. Is there anyone who has had the MUP problem, but it completely went away when they started using a V-Grip? Or, conversely, are there people using MUP and a V-Grip who are having the problem (which would indicate that it's not a cure)? It would certainly be interesting if there are no reports of the MUP problem when using a V-Grip.

The posts did cause me to revist my CF setup and I discovered that I had the alkaline battery type chosen instead of NiMH. The manual states that it only affects the charge indicator, but who knows. I also switched the sleep time from 15 to 30 seconds.

 

[Wayne Fox]

Certainly there is more than just the battery going on. Before switching the the Lithiums it happened about 2% of the time ... at least once in every 50 captures, sometimes more. Since switching it rarely happens (1 out of hundreds). When the Lithium's start to lose charge it seems to start happening, installing new batteries and problem is basically gone.

So I agree there is more to it than just the batteries, but I also know that for me, the Lithiums eliminate it to the point that it doesn't bother me.

As far as the v-grip not sure. I couldn't stand using the thing ...

 

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

Yes, some posts stated that switching to Energizer Lithiums helped, while others have said that switching to Maha Imedion or Sanyo Eneloop (both low discharge NiMH batteries) helped. So far, I haven't heard anyone say "when I switched to XYZ battery the problem completely went away" which is why I'm skeptical.

I am curious about the V-Grip since it provides a completely different power supply. Is there anyone who has had the MUP problem, but it completely went away when they started using a V-Grip? Or, conversely, are there people using MUP and a V-Grip who are having the problem (which would indicate that it's not a cure)? It would certainly be interesting if there are no reports of the MUP problem when using a V-Grip.

The posts did cause me to revist my CF setup and I discovered that I had the alkaline battery type chosen instead of NiMH. The manual states that it only affects the charge indicator, but who knows. I also switched the sleep time from 15 to 30 seconds.

Although I have not had a recurrence of the problem since going to fresh lithiums, I have NEVER had the problem with the V Grip. In fact it was the cure - whenever the camera locked up I atteched the V Grip and it unlocked immediately.

You might also see

http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=11104

Bill

 

[kdphotography]

Although I have not had a recurrence of the problem since going to fresh lithiums, I have NEVER had the problem with the V Grip. In fact it was the cure - whenever the camera locked up I atteched the V Grip and it unlocked immediately.

You might also see

http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=11104

Bill

Aaack! It's a V-grip sales ploy! :ROTFL:

Seriously, I note Drew from Phase One in your posted link states, "...ultimately the error you reported is typically due to inadequate power from the back to the body and thus incorrect communication." (emphasis added).

It seems to me weak batteries, whether from run down AAs or rechargeables, will have lower output, and at some point, inadequate power leading to problems between the back and body. The V-grip with its two rechargeable 7.2 volt Li-ion batteries probably has quite a bit more capacity.... but I'll stick to my Energizer Lithiums (and keeping a few extra packs on hand).

ken

 

[Shelby Lewis]

So you guys just need to lug a 12V car battery and a set of jumper cables with you all the time and you should be good to go!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Yup just hook me up to the nuke.

I actually have a V grip coming Monday but not for this reason. Shooting a lot of fashion lately and it kills my hands flipping body over but I have arthritis in my hands so it's just easier on me after several hours of shooting. I'm not crazy about the ergos on it but it should help the pain.

 

[Stefan Steib]

Guy & All

It´s really amazing. There are people here who care for their gear, buy equipment in the 5 digit range to do the best possible photography and then run into this low voltage, low battery status because of non controlled load and powerstatus of the used batteries. (which are by far the cheapest part in this chain)
These batteries are made in China and are a mass production item. Their power output, load status and stability under consumption on low temperatures do differ, according to the life cycle and former usage (memory) of these batteries. And especially the most chargers are not properly working. I have answered this in a thread on LuLa

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=59092.0

And I have offered a solution too. And ...obviously people don´t believe it.

This is not the fault of Phase One. And this has got nothing to do with a firmware upgrade. If anything Phase has failed is not telling People about the nature of these batteries and supplying this Hähnel charger which I think is crap. Again - no power - no proper function of an electronic device.

Period. If you want reliable operation make sure your power is there.
Using toy chargers is not professional. Learn from the video people.
take a look what they do. It´s maybe a bit overkill to buy Anton Bauer batteries and chargers, but please think about it !

Greetings from Munich
Stefan

 

[kdphotography]

Stefan, while I do agree with you with regard to the Hahnel charger (it works but none too impressed---the lights stopped working on one of my charging bays---so "toy charger" description is not far off) the power output issue here seems to be more from the AAs that power the DF body, not the 7.2 volt rechargeable battery that powers the back. Perhaps the rechargeable pack that Gary mentions above would help address this issue. Then one needs only to look for a better replacement for the Hahnel charger. Until then, the Energizer Lithium AAs to power the DF body work fine for me.

I know that in a previous thread Guy mentioned using the Pearstone charger, http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/708406-REG/Pearstone_DLC_CNBP915_Duo_Battery_Charger_for.html

I know you have found a better solution/alternative as well for the Hcam. Would you mind sharing a better description of your charger, pricing and ordering information?

Thanks, ken

 

[Stefan Steib]

Hi Ken

yes I know, this is about the body, but I suspect this is a connected system and both batteries somehow throwing differing voltages at this system cause these hickups.

There are some pretty good Chargers for Lithium Mignon Batteries - I use an Ansmann which also does cycle the batteries.(there are pretty good chargers used in the model car and plane scene (in Germany you can take a look at the Conrad catalogue, I´m sure in the US something similar exists) I would also advice anybody to take at least one or two sets of high grade Batteries (non rechargeable) with them as a backup as these have higher voltages anyway which may be essential especially on very low temperatures. The Phase vertical dual battery grip is also a solution.

If anyone is interested about our charger, I am working on a website upgrade to put this online. We can already deliver this in Europe and also directly from the US (we have a cooperation with this American Maker), we can do all combinations 4x low voltage (standard Phase Battery) or 1-4 high voltage slots mixed with the low voltage. We can also attach directly powered Firewire 800 and USB3 hubs to the charger (=optionally, will still determine about pricing), we even think about putting a buffer battery on it for use off any powerlines.

The actual version is 595,-€ in Europe, if we sell this directly in the US we can sell this for 650 $+ shipment (and sales taxes- don´t know exactly how this is handled- from state to state ?) There is a delivery time of about 2 weeks, the chargers are built on order.

Just send me an email with your order and I get back to you with all the needed infos ASAP.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan