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Thread: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

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    Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    I'm new to both MFD and this forum. I recently took the plunge with a Phase One 645DF bundled with the P65+ and a few lenses. I love the results, but I have a problem with mirror lockup. About one out of ten exposures, the camera locks up and needs some combination of turning off the camera, turning off the back, or even removing batteries to restore things.

    The problem happens with all lenses, and both with the remote release or using the self timer and shutter button on the body. I also experienced the issue with the loaner body and back from Phase before my system was received, so it's not unique to my body. Back and body are both brand new and running the latest firmware.

    I use the system primarily for scenics and landscape photography, so mirror lockup is an integral part of my workflow. It's more than an annoyance since I've missed some shots while fussing with the camera to get it running again. To be honest, it makes me wonder if I made the right choice with Phase versus Hassy...

    I haven't found any mention of the issue either here or on the LL forum.
    Am I the only unlucky one? Are others having the problem? Is there a work-around?

    Thanks in advance.

    Craig
    www.craigstocksarts.com

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Craig are these older lenses. Some of the older lenses alone need a firmware update.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    New lenses, including the 55 and 80 LS and the 28 and 35 Phase lenses. Body firmware is 1.2.3, which was current up until a couple of days ago.

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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Make sure your P65+ firmware is up to date. I know the IQ180 just had a FW update to fix that problem.

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    I'm curious about the firmware, there's been a few posts here, about the finicky nature of DF's. Keep us posted.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Craig

    This my pet peeve with the DF and there seems to be a lot of denial about it in the forums but you'll find in reality that a quite a few of us run into this occasionally. To be clear for this here, we're not talking about the back/camera losing communication "NoDB" , this is the mirror/shutter locking up.

    What I find happens is that you are using mirror lock-up and auto timer release or cable release. You fire the first shutter release and the mirror will lock up. 99% of the time everything works as expected. Occasionally when the mirror goes up you'll hear a slightly different "twack" sound than the normal MUP sound. At that point the shutter won't release and you need to go through the power off, battery out and occasionally back off sequence for the mirror & shutter to reset.

    A few things that seem to have more of an impact on this. First, make sure that the batteries in the body are at full charge - it seems relatively sensitive to power drop off of the camera batteries. For example, when it's cold you'll have a greater propensity for this to happen. (I recall a cold morning at the Grand Canyon where three of us had this happen - you could almost listen out for the profanities ... ). However, it's not just cold/power related. Secondly, make sure that the battery in the back is at full power too. Thirdly, get the latest firmware for the body as you can as I hear that this is a problem they're still trying to alleviate.

    I'm lead to believe that the issue is something basic in the back/body communication design & timing. My DF came back with firmware 1.2.3 recently and seems less prone to the problem but it has definitely happened at least once. It was fairly common with my P40+ although it's too soon to tell with my IQ.

    In summary, you're not alone. There isn't a magic solution to this problem that I'm aware of other than the feeling of russian roulette at times - normally pre-dawn, waiting for the light and at the most inappropriate and *#$*##*$ annoying times. 99.9% it'll go 'click', and then occasionally more of a 'clunk/twack' sound. You learn to recognize the sound.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Agree with Graham this has happened to many of us and in the cold for sure. I have fixed several on workshops no question. Pull battery reinsert and reset. Lately though it has not happened but I have had some updates to both back and body. Yours sounds like it is happening often and that I have not seen. Might be worth checking all firmware and actually on back reloading the firmware. I would certainly call your dealer as yes it has happened to many of us but not this often and not lately that I have heard about at least. I'll be in the cold next week with up to 30 people shooting so I will keep a eye out to see if anyone is running into it.

    I'll also be with Phase folks and you can bet I will get there ear.


    One other quick note since everything is new and believe it or not sometimes the body contacts may have slight grease on them. I would recommend cleaning all contacts on lenses and body as well. Also make sure all lenses are fully engaged too.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    If it really is 1 in 10 shots then you may have a bigger problem. It might just **seem** like 1 in 10 ?? As annoying as it is, it's never been quite that frequent for me.

    Definitely worth doing the contact cleaner thing too.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Thanks for the quick input. I had already checked the body firmware based on input from my Phase rep, but I hadn't checked the back. The body is 1.23, and I won't be able to update it for a couple weeks when I can take it to my dealer since I don't have the battery grip (dumb design, but that's another topic).

    The back was at 5.1.8, so I've updated it to 5.2.2. I ran through a dozen clicks with no problem, but it's way too early to claim success. Since I've already done the firmware update, I think I'll hold off cleaning contacts so that I'm trying one thing at a time. If (when?) it acts up again, I'll take the next step.

    I don't know if one out of 10 is accurate, but I know one morning it froze up on the first shot. Once freed, it worked a couple of times and then hung up again. Just as Graham described with the extra "thunk" after the mirror opened. I think the actual sound sequence is click-click .... thunk - curse.

    Lately, I've stopped using mirror lockup and have just been taking my chances with sharpness. After missing the best of some quick changing light at dawn, I figured the risk of a slightly soft image is better than no image at all.

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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Craig

    This my pet peeve with the DF and there seems to be a lot of denial about it in the forums but you'll find in reality that a quite a few of us run into this occasionally. To be clear for this here, we're not talking about the back/camera losing communication "NoDB" , this is the mirror/shutter locking up.
    Mine does this occasionally, and I think it is the same problem, it's just a matter of timing. I do know that occasionally when moving my camera the mirror will suddenly pop up because the DF loses communication with the back. This can happen from vibrations or small shocks to the body. I think every once in a while, the clunk from the mirror locking up causes this same thing to happen ... so you think everything is normal except the camera doesn't fire ... only good fix is drop the the battery out of the DF, and occasionally it also requires powering the back off and on, or with me more often than not requires disconnecting and reconnecting the back.

    It is pretty rare for me but has happened on several occasions. I have had it happen when the backs battery is very low as well but honestly I haven't paid enough attention to notice if it's happening only when the batter is low. It's a small nuisance to me since not much of what I shoot depends on timing.

    I haven't loaded the new firmware on yet (doing it today before heading out on a shoot this evening) but I have tried cleaning the contacts which didn't seem to make any difference.
    wayne
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    I have had this same problem with my DF body since day 1 (almost 2 years now). I'm happy to learn that I'm not the only one, but it doesn't make me feel any more confident using the camera, and I would never be able to safely use it for anything other than Landscape or Architectural work. Even then I've missed some great moments when the camera locked up. (Of course, it's not just the missed shot that hurts, but the time lost fumbling to unlock it).
    At first, I thought it was user error. But now I'm certain it's not. Firmware updates have not helped. I try to use fully charged batteries, but they can't be fully charged throughout a shooting session. It has happened in cold weather and warm weather. In the mountains, standing next to Kevin Raber, and at the Pacific ocean, with Dave Gallagher nearby. They fiddled with the camera but had no explanation or advice.
    I'm about to move to an IQ back, so it will be interesting to see if the failure rate decreases or is eliminated. If indeed it is a camera hardware problem not correctable with software updates, I think it would be appropriate and kind for Phase One to issue a recall (like car companies often do) to remedy this situation. I think that is the right thing to do, especially considering the high cost of the DF body, as well as it's status as a "professional" camera.

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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    Mine does this occasionally, and I think it is the same problem, it's just a matter of timing. I do know that occasionally when moving my camera the mirror will suddenly pop up because the DF loses communication with the back. This can happen from vibrations or small shocks to the body. I think every once in a while, the clunk from the mirror locking up causes this same thing to happen ... so you think everything is normal except the camera doesn't fire ... only good fix is drop the the battery out of the DF, and occasionally it also requires powering the back off and on, or with me more often than not requires disconnecting and reconnecting the back.
    Wayne, that's interesting that you've had spontaneous mirror pops. I haven't had that happen before. Is your IQ really tight on the DF body? The first IQ I had was loose on my Alpa and firm on the DF. The replacement is absolutely rock solid on both, just like my P40+ before it and my new (to me) P25+. The vibration & timing & contact integrity could all be involved I suppose, especially given the apparent random nature of this. What is interesting though is that there definitely is an audibly different sound for the shutter/mirror when it locks up - I can spot it immediately.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    I'll be having some very direct conversations with my dealer. It's really a big deal to me since I do primarily landscape work with this system. If this were a brand new Lexus or Buick and it died occasionally when you turned on the radio, I'd sure bet you'd be leaning on the dealer to fix it. (Especially if the only way to get going again was to park the car, get out, lock all the doors, and then start over from scratch.) If they couldn't fix it, you'd be looking at the Lemon Law for a refund. I find it completely irresponsible of Phase One to let this issue linger and not provide a fix.

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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    I think the latest firmware for the IQ backs fixes this, no?

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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Craig

    This my pet peeve with the DF and there seems to be a lot of denial about it in the forums but you'll find in reality that a quite a few of us run into this occasionally. To be clear for this here, we're not talking about the back/camera losing communication "NoDB" , this is the mirror/shutter locking up.

    What I find happens is that you are using mirror lock-up and auto timer release or cable release. You fire the first shutter release and the mirror will lock up. 99% of the time everything works as expected. Occasionally when the mirror goes up you'll hear a slightly different "twack" sound than the normal MUP sound. At that point the shutter won't release and you need to go through the power off, battery out and occasionally back off sequence for the mirror & shutter to reset.

    A few things that seem to have more of an impact on this. First, make sure that the batteries in the body are at full charge - it seems relatively sensitive to power drop off of the camera batteries. For example, when it's cold you'll have a greater propensity for this to happen. (I recall a cold morning at the Grand Canyon where three of us had this happen - you could almost listen out for the profanities ... ). However, it's not just cold/power related. Secondly, make sure that the battery in the back is at full power too. Thirdly, get the latest firmware for the body as you can as I hear that this is a problem they're still trying to alleviate.

    I'm lead to believe that the issue is something basic in the back/body communication design & timing. My DF came back with firmware 1.2.3 recently and seems less prone to the problem but it has definitely happened at least once. It was fairly common with my P40+ although it's too soon to tell with my IQ.

    In summary, you're not alone. There isn't a magic solution to this problem that I'm aware of other than the feeling of russian roulette at times - normally pre-dawn, waiting for the light and at the most inappropriate and *#$*##*$ annoying times. 99.9% it'll go 'click', and then occasionally more of a 'clunk/twack' sound. You learn to recognize the sound.
    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Wayne, that's interesting that you've had spontaneous mirror pops. I haven't had that happen before. Is your IQ really tight on the DF body? The first IQ I had was loose on my Alpa and firm on the DF. The replacement is absolutely rock solid on both, just like my P40+ before it and my new (to me) P25+. The vibration & timing & contact integrity could all be involved I suppose, especially given the apparent random nature of this. What is interesting though is that there definitely is an audibly different sound for the shutter/mirror when it locks up - I can spot it immediately.
    Yes, back seems quite secure, and when I mount it the contact points appear to have plenty of latitude so they should make good contact.

    Makes sense the sounds would be different where in one case only the mirror pops up and in the other the fp shutter also opens. (why can't this happen with mirror lockup when shooting a LS lens?). I've just never noticed it.

    Loading new firmware now ... hope it helps.
    wayne
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by padams View Post
    I think the latest firmware for the IQ backs fixes this, no?
    No. It apparently fixes the No-DB error that some folks have had. That's a different problem just with the IQ backs.

    I installed the latest IQ firmware on my IQ160, DF has 1.23 and I can confirm that it definitely does not 'fix' the lock up problem with the mirror/shutter based on the observation that it has happened once to me since that upgrade.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    At these prices you would think these cameras would be better designed. Having confidence that your gear will work properly, allows it to become an extension of your creativity. Having to re-set and install batteries so it works for a few dozen captures, and then do it again is ridiculous.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    We are talking about a 4k body just like a Canon. This is not a back issue. Let's be clear here

    I'm not here to defend it far from it but it's not running rampant either. I personal think it is a low voltage issue. I was told by a phase tech not to use the eneloops at one time since that battery Mha was to low. I switched and this issue has not come up again. Problem is it is not consistent and variable. For all we know the battery carrier could be the culprit.

    It's happened a few times out of 15k images to me. Now the OP sounds to have a much more serious issue here. This is not happening among thousands of users.but I certainly have seen it.
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    My shutter locks up every 40-50 acuations. It's quite frustrating.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    We are talking about a 4k body just like a Canon. This is not a back issue. Let's be clear here

    I'm not here to defend it far from it but it's not running rampant either. I personal think it is a low voltage issue. I was told by a phase tech not to use the eneloops at one time since that battery Mha was to low. I switched and this issue has not come up again. Problem is it is not consistent and variable. For all we know the battery carrier could be the culprit.

    It's happened a few times out of 15k images to me. Now the OP sounds to have a much more serious issue here. This is not happening among thousands of users.but I certainly have seen it.
    Guy,

    I suspect that your workflow, as with most commercial shooters who aren't almost exclusively shooting with MUP or MUP/timer release, probably makes the chances of this happening less than say purely landscape shooters. That's just my supposition. Btw, I actually think that it is a lot more prevalent than perhaps people let on - I'm sure that there are many people out there who just suffer in silence actually.

    I'd agree that it isn't something that happens every day, but one or two times over a weekend, regardless of how many shots you've taken is enough to royally piss you off. If it just missed the shot it wouldn't be so much of a problem - I.e. If you pressed the shutter a second time and it released for example. However, having to do the deconstruction dance ALWAYS seems to happen when time is short and you're trying to get that shot in rapidly changing light. When you miss shots it makes this problem take on a whole different level of annoyance.

    The Mamiya interface has never been very reliable in my experience, going way back to my DCS645M & AFD that would lock up regularly. In fact, it happened so much that I dumped that MF system completely and went back to Nikon. The DF system had me considering a body platform change to the HY6/AFI or Contax earlier this year myself. I'm pretty sure that what we have is an inherent unreliability in the camera/back interface where timing is concerned. I'm sure that if it was easy to fix then it would have been done so already because this isn't a new issue or a surprise to either Mamiya or Phase One. However, they should at least acknowledge the problem and provide some real feedback about (a) how to minimize it, (b) what the nature of the problem really is, & (c) give us a roadmap to fixing or a DF replacement strategy.

    I know that there is discussion about a new body coming down the pyke. However, that's a ways off and I agree with other folks that this shouldn't happen - ever. You mention that it is a $4k camera body ($5k+ unless you have a discount btw) like a Canon - none of my film canons ever did this and neither have any of my digital Nikons from the D1 through to the D3x ever been this unreliable, or even have a single significant glitch of this magnitude.

    I'm trying not to be melodramatic about this problem but I personally think that it is significant. I tolerate the DF camera at best unfortunately as it basically is the only platform that I can use alongside my Alpa for Phase One backs and up to date glass. if current Hasselblads supported the Phase backs I'd have jumped ship a while ago.

    Btw, I hope you don't think that this a vent at you - it's just an expression, again, of my (our) frustration with this issue. P.s. How about a lock-up sweepstakes in NH this week?
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Hi All

    I have had this happen a few times when shooting with the P65+ back on the DF - middle of photoshoot at wedding - crap!!

    Now we have an IQ back, we have not had this problem to date.

    Is the DF camera fantastic - well NO - but at least I signed up with Phase One cause, I can more easily use my Phase back with my tech camera (Cambo) and also the DF has a focal plane shutter (all be it, there is room for improvemnt in the working there of) and I feel confident that Phase One will bring out a new camera in the next year or so - and then I will be able to just move my back across and keep my DF as a spare body.

    Well that is my take on the situation - I have been wrong before (just ask my wife), but that is why I persevere.


    Cheers


    mal

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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Over the course of this year I started with a new P65+ DB while waiting for my ordered IQ180, which I have now had for a couple months. With both backs on the same new Phase One DF body I have suffered numerous "freeze-ups" when the mirror lock-up with timer froze the camera and I had to disassemble it all (exact same scenario as described by others on this thread) to get it working again. It "seemed" more prevalent with the P65+ but I couldn't back that up with stats. However, it does seem to happen roughly once over the course of every shoot, and of course it does seem to always be at a pretty inopportune moment.

    Guy, I think you mentioned that a Phase tech said not to use Eneloop batteries. That is what I use, so maybe changing batteries will solve the problem. Did he/she suggest what to look for in a battery to avoid this problem?

    Thanks
    Will

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Yes over 2200 Mha.

    Im using these now in everything

    http://www.thomasdistributing.com/16...ml?frontpage=1
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Graham,
    Thank you for so clearly articulating this problem in your last post.
    I have been enduring this situation in silence for the past two years, often
    reaching for my Sony A900 in critical changing light to ensure reliability.
    I truly hope, especially if enough users complain, that this thread can have
    some impact on effecting a positive response from Phase One.

  25. #25
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Now folks it would not hurt one bit to clean the battery holder contacts either. My theory is eliminate as many potential issues that you can find. It may have no relevance whatsoever except you get clean contacts. That can't be a bad thing either. I know sounds lame but anytime I run into stuff i always go through the process of elimination. I use ROR on just about everything.

    Here is a link

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...l_Remover.html
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Guy - Those are the same batteries I'm using and obviously still having the problem.

    As far as a new generation body - if Phase wants to swap bodies as a warranty repair to fix the problem then I'm all for it. But, I sure don't like the thought of having to buy a new body to work around a defect in the old one. To me, that's just rewarding bad design and poor service.

  27. #27
    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    ...Btw, I actually think that it is a lot more prevalent than perhaps people let on - I'm sure that there are many people out there who just suffer in silence actually.

    I'd agree that it isn't something that happens every day, but one or two times over a weekend, regardless of how many shots you've taken is enough to royally piss you off. If it just missed the shot it wouldn't be so much of a problem - I.e. If you pressed the shutter a second time and it released for example. However, having to do the deconstruction dance ALWAYS seems to happen when time is short and you're trying to get that shot in rapidly changing light. When you miss shots it makes this problem take on a whole different level of annoyance.

    ...I'm pretty sure that what we have is an inherent unreliability in the camera/back interface where timing is concerned. I'm sure that if it was easy to fix then it would have been done so already because this isn't a new issue or a surprise to either Mamiya or Phase One. However, they should at least acknowledge the problem and provide some real feedback about (a) how to minimize it, (b) what the nature of the problem really is, & (c) give us a roadmap to fixing or a DF replacement strategy.

    I know that there is discussion about a new body coming down the pyke. However, that's a ways off and I agree with other folks that this shouldn't happen - ever. You mention that it is a $4k camera body ($5k+ unless you have a discount btw) like a Canon - none of my film canons ever did this and neither have any of my digital Nikons from the D1 through to the D3x ever been this unreliable, or even have a single significant glitch of this magnitude.

    ...I tolerate the DF camera at best ...
    +1

    Well said, Graham. I love the IQ180, but using it with the DF is a frustrating experience. And like you, I've owned every Nikon from the D1 to the D3s, and, in the past year, an H4D-40 and an H4D-50. None have had a problem of this magnitude. And Guy, this problem occurs with fully charged, high mAh batteries (I've tried several brands) and clean contacts (I use ROR). I've tried all the "home remedies". And having spent my life in the design of complex electronics and software for the telecom industry, I tend to agree with Graham that "what we have is an inherent unreliability in the camera/back interface where timing is concerned." I'd be interested in learning how often this problem occurs during the New Hampshire workshop.

    Color me frustrated,

    Joe
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  28. #28
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Stocks View Post
    Guy - Those are the same batteries I'm using and obviously still having the problem.

    As far as a new generation body - if Phase wants to swap bodies as a warranty repair to fix the problem then I'm all for it. But, I sure don't like the thought of having to buy a new body to work around a defect in the old one. To me, that's just rewarding bad design and poor service.
    Totally agree. They should absolutely replace body with that serious a problem. Bodies will fail and normal repairs are expected. Yours is beyond that
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    +1

    Well said, Graham. I love the IQ180, but using it with the DF is a frustrating experience. And like you, I've owned every Nikon from the D1 to the D3s, and, in the past year, an H4D-40 and an H4D-50. None have had a problem of this magnitude. And Guy, this problem occurs with fully charged, high mAh batteries (I've tried several brands) and clean contacts (I use ROR). I've tried all the "home remedies". And having spent my life in the design of complex electronics and software for the telecom industry, I tend to agree with Graham that "what we have is an inherent unreliability in the camera/back interface where timing is concerned." I'd be interested in learning how often this problem occurs during the New Hampshire workshop.

    Color me frustrated,

    Joe

    I'm on the case and I am relentless.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  30. #30
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    I said this in the last thread that came up about it, and while the OP confirmed his body has a recent firmware, I want to reiterate that: the Back, Body AND Lenses need to have the current firmwares AND clean all the contact pins on your back, your body and your lenses. Then if you still have issues you can start to pinpoint issues and return the kit for warranty service. Your dealer should be able to help you get current firmware on everything, you can clean the pins with the sensor solution 2 and a Q-Tip. My bet is once everything is on a current firmware and clean, most of you will be fine.

    To repeat what I wrote before, when I do use the DF body and IQ180 it is in MLU/Self-Timer mode 90% of the time. I had the DB issue a few times when my IQ180 first arrived, though I was using it in the rain and assumed it was shorting -- I worked around it and got by. I have since had the newest body and back FW's loaded and at least for me, the problem has disappeared. Of course I am now shooting the tech cam a lot more and the DF a lot less...
    Jack
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  31. #31
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    So how do you check that your lenses have current firmware? I can find out what firmware versions I have but I haven't seen anywhere with a list of what the latest version of lens firmware should be.

    In my own case I can absolutely state that the body and back are at the very latest official release level. (DF: 1.23, IQ: 1.47). The lenses in question are either new Phase One lenses (2011) or are Mamiya lenses that have recently come back from service.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  32. #32
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Graham, ask your dealer. You can find the lens FW by going to CF 98 (IIRC) on the DF body with the lens mounted and it will tell you that lens' FW. Does it happen with all of your lenses, or just some? As I said, if your FW's are all UTD, then I would return the kit with the lens(es) in question for service.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  33. #33
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Okay I did chat with a Phase representative this morning after a e- mail that I sent out. Basically Phase is very aware of the self timer / mirror lock up issue and is working very aggressively on a update to fix this issue. As we have all said there is no consistenty here as sometimes it happens and sometimes it does not but it is affecting that combination of controls. It will come down to firmware and it should be handled in the near future. But be assured it is a priority and they are all over it. Given what I have seen Phase in action on previous issues I am sure this will get handled. I also think keeping up with all the firmware and cleaning of contacts is good advice regardless. Use the proper batteries with higher mHa as I did get a note from one of the techs on a body repair of mine.

    So in short this is a problem all it's own that they are fully aware of and a fix is in the future.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  34. #34
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    I'm wondering if the mirror lock-up/no db issue is more related to a power (battery) issue.

    There is no doubt in my mind that the DF body and the IQ series of MFDBs are substantially better with regard to power management/consumption issues. On the cameras bodies (going all the way back to the AF/AFD/Phase AF) I use primarily Energizer Lithium AAs, which I found simply perform better with regard to battery drain. I don't use rechargeables in my 645DF. I don't remove the battery carrier from the body, and leave my batteries in all the time.

    Previous Phase MFDBs that I owned (P30, P45+ and P65+) slowly drained the rechargeable Phase battery when I left it in the back; there is a slight draw placed on the battery. My IQ180 does not exhibit this drain, or at least it is so very slight as to not be perceptible by me.

    I have only had the "no db" error/lock-up happen to me one time (knocking on wood now). In retrospect, I suspect a power/low battery issue. The no db lock-up occured to me on the last part of my trip to the southwest this last summer. I did not start my trip with a fresh set of Energizer Lithium AAs in the DF; these were already well-used on several studio sessions and I simply brought another set of AAs with me.

    No issue the first part of the trip to Monument Valley and Hunt's Mesa. Last part of the trip, the no db lock up occured in Page , AZ. I distinctly recall reaching in my bag and finding the DF body with the power switch left in the on position. I think this further diminshed the DF AA lithium batteries, the same set that I started the trip with. No db error---had to do a full hard boot: remove DF batteries, remove IQ180 batteries, remove MFDB, remove lens. Pause and reassemble.

    Anyway, I think a good set of Energizer Lithium AAs (not rechargeables) as well as making sure batteries are fresh, may help remove yet another variable in the "no db/mirror-lock-up" problem.

    ken

  35. #35
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    The latest firmware dated In Sept. Was for the no DB issue. That should not appear now.

    The MUP/ self timer is the current issue on the books to fix
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  36. #36
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Graham, ask your dealer. You can find the lens FW by going to CF 98 (IIRC) on the DF body with the lens mounted and it will tell you that lens' FW. Does it happen with all of your lenses, or just some? As I said, if your FW's are all UTD, then I would return the kit with the lens(es) in question for service.
    Jack, all good points. At some point I can certainly correlate my lens firmware versions (although I'm not convinced on this one but I digress).

    I can't speak for others but I do know for certain that I've had problems in the field at various times with my DF & Phase One 28D (new 2011), Mamiya 75-150D (Serviced 2011), Mamiya 210/4 ULD (new 2011) and Mamiya 300 APO (Serviced 2011). I can't be certain of my other Phase One glass (35D/45D/80D, 120 Macro - new motherboard & FW) because a scientific test of lenses vs bodies vs backs hasn't been done, especially given the random nature of the issue and the fact that the lineup has changed at times and some lenses haven't been used enough in the field to confirm. However, I'm sure that some other folks here have a much simpler line up and more consistent results ...

    I suppose I could spend a day mindlessly clicking the camera waiting for the problem to possibly reproduce itself with each lens ... (the nature of the beast is that it'll hang in the field but not when you try to make it happen!).
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  37. #37
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    It's been suggest to use the electronic cable release instead of the self timer/mup for now.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  38. #38
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Graham,

    It appears there is still an issue with some combinations of backs and bodies -- I was not aware of this and thought the problem had been solved with the last FW updates for the body and back -- my apologies. I did have similar problems with a few of my lenses and older firmware, notably the 210, 75-150 and 105-210 zooms which all needed updating to work properly on my DF body.
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Just another mention for the list of users having this problem. I had it often with the DF and the P65+ and yes, it was really driving me nuts.

    I never used the self timer/mup, I am always or pressing the release button or using the electronic cable release as I am shooting fashion/editorials and very rarely landscape.

    Having the newest FW since last week, I will report about the behavior with the IQ180 after a certain time.

  40. #40
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    This is an interface issue with the DF, although, I'm not sure if this effects other "M" mount DB's, but IMO, a $4000+ Canon 1Ds, that works 100% of the time is much more valuable than a DF that doesn't

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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    That's a good question, have Leaf back users had any of these lockup problems when using a DF body?

  42. #42
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    I know this probably makes NO sense given the characterization of the above problems... but my Aptus-II 6 does funky things with certain cf cards... and I mean very strange. I can't see how it would be a card... but you never know.

    This is NOT on a DF body, but I'm just bringing this up to make sure all possibilities have been thought about.

    With Kingston 16GB CF cards, my back will function normally for a short while and then decide it doesn't know what to do any more, facilitating a battery pull, yada, yada... never a probelm with my sandisk cards.

    Just one more variable to put at the end of the list if firmware updates don't solve this.

  43. #43
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Shelby,
    You're right about CF cards. They can certainly be a weak link in the chain. I've had 2 Lexar cards that had to be returned, but never an issue with a SanDisk Extreme.

  44. #44
    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    New firmware today, and had a couple of issues. However, my DF battery's turned out to be low, after replacing no more problems.
    wayne
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    I've also got the same problem with an IQ180 (latest firmware on back and 645DF). I find it hard to believe it is a battery issue because the camera will work fine for a long time after reseting everything. I also have an issue where in manual mode if I set the aperture to f/8 or so and I have the back button set to be the focusing button, it will occasionally reset the aperture to f/4.5 after focusing every once in a while. Happens with both a 28 and 75-150 lens.

    Martin

  46. #46
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    I think Phase needs to introduce a new camera...design a better form factor, integrated battery grip, (like the H4D), but with more capture capability, weather sealing, and the ability to completely remove the FP shutter from the sequence. The posts here suggest more of a glitch, but perhaps a design flaw, that will no doubt resonate with photographers when making choices.

  47. #47
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Phase is in the process of a new body possibly two. This is public knowledge.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  48. #48
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Phase is in the process of a new body possibly two. This is public knowledge.

    Trouble on the horizon....



    (trouble at least for my pocketbook!)

  49. #49
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Well, I can absolutely confirm that the problem is still present with the current DF firmware 1.25, IQ firmware 1.47 and both mirror lock up with timer release AND cable release modes.

    The feedback from Phase One folks really is that they are aware of the issues, they aren't yet still fixed but they are actively working on it. Not ideal but at least something seems to be happening ...

    I was shooting in cold conditions, fresh batteries, very latest LS or D lenses this morning and had six or seven lock ups in 120 images if I recall correctly.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  50. #50
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

    Lol I have a Arca guy 2 ft from me a Cambo guy 15 ft from me a Phase guy 10 ft from me a leaf guy 12 ft from me and Graham 10 ft from me and we all know about the issue and it IS being worked on so yes it still is happening. My folks this morning one guy was using self timer/ Mup and having problems. Several with release and Mup and maybe once. Bottom line there is a problem it's abritary and variable and it's known and being worked on. No one is denying it and it's a firmware issue. This stuff happens with every cam made in the industry. We are simply dealing with electronics and software. Unfortunately this stuff exists .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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