Phase One 645DF Mirror Lockup Problem

[Craig Stocks]

I'm new to both MFD and this forum. I recently took the plunge with a Phase One 645DF bundled with the P65+ and a few lenses. I love the results, but I have a problem with mirror lockup. About one out of ten exposures, the camera locks up and needs some combination of turning off the camera, turning off the back, or even removing batteries to restore things.

The problem happens with all lenses, and both with the remote release or using the self timer and shutter button on the body. I also experienced the issue with the loaner body and back from Phase before my system was received, so it's not unique to my body. Back and body are both brand new and running the latest firmware.

I use the system primarily for scenics and landscape photography, so mirror lockup is an integral part of my workflow. It's more than an annoyance since I've missed some shots while fussing with the camera to get it running again. To be honest, it makes me wonder if I made the right choice with Phase versus Hassy...

I haven't found any mention of the issue either here or on the LL forum.
Am I the only unlucky one? Are others having the problem? Is there a work-around?

Thanks in advance.

Craig
www.craigstocksarts.com

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Craig are these older lenses. Some of the older lenses alone need a firmware update.

 

[Craig Stocks]

New lenses, including the 55 and 80 LS and the 28 and 35 Phase lenses. Body firmware is 1.2.3, which was current up until a couple of days ago.

 

[etrump]

Make sure your P65+ firmware is up to date. I know the IQ180 just had a FW update to fix that problem.

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

I'm curious about the firmware, there's been a few posts here, about the finicky nature of DF's. Keep us posted.

 

[GrahamWelland]

Craig

This my pet peeve with the DF and there seems to be a lot of denial about it in the forums but you'll find in reality that a quite a few of us run into this occasionally. To be clear for this here, we're not talking about the back/camera losing communication "NoDB" , this is the mirror/shutter locking up.

What I find happens is that you are using mirror lock-up and auto timer release or cable release. You fire the first shutter release and the mirror will lock up. 99% of the time everything works as expected. Occasionally when the mirror goes up you'll hear a slightly different "twack" sound than the normal MUP sound. At that point the shutter won't release and you need to go through the power off, battery out and occasionally back off sequence for the mirror & shutter to reset.

A few things that seem to have more of an impact on this. First, make sure that the batteries in the body are at full charge - it seems relatively sensitive to power drop off of the camera batteries. For example, when it's cold you'll have a greater propensity for this to happen. (I recall a cold morning at the Grand Canyon where three of us had this happen - you could almost listen out for the profanities ... ). However, it's not just cold/power related. Secondly, make sure that the battery in the back is at full power too. Thirdly, get the latest firmware for the body as you can as I hear that this is a problem they're still trying to alleviate.

I'm lead to believe that the issue is something basic in the back/body communication design & timing. My DF came back with firmware 1.2.3 recently and seems less prone to the problem but it has definitely happened at least once. It was fairly common with my P40+ although it's too soon to tell with my IQ.

In summary, you're not alone. There isn't a magic solution to this problem that I'm aware of other than the feeling of russian roulette at times - normally pre-dawn, waiting for the light and at the most inappropriate and *#$*##*$ annoying times. 99.9% it'll go 'click', and then occasionally more of a 'clunk/twack' sound. You learn to recognize the sound.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Agree with Graham this has happened to many of us and in the cold for sure. I have fixed several on workshops no question. Pull battery reinsert and reset. Lately though it has not happened but I have had some updates to both back and body. Yours sounds like it is happening often and that I have not seen. Might be worth checking all firmware and actually on back reloading the firmware. I would certainly call your dealer as yes it has happened to many of us but not this often and not lately that I have heard about at least. I'll be in the cold next week with up to 30 people shooting so I will keep a eye out to see if anyone is running into it.

I'll also be with Phase folks and you can bet I will get there ear.


One other quick note since everything is new and believe it or not sometimes the body contacts may have slight grease on them. I would recommend cleaning all contacts on lenses and body as well. Also make sure all lenses are fully engaged too.

 

[GrahamWelland]

If it really is 1 in 10 shots then you may have a bigger problem. It might just **seem** like 1 in 10 ?? As annoying as it is, it's never been quite that frequent for me.

Definitely worth doing the contact cleaner thing too. :thumbup:

 

[Craig Stocks]

Thanks for the quick input. I had already checked the body firmware based on input from my Phase rep, but I hadn't checked the back. The body is 1.23, and I won't be able to update it for a couple weeks when I can take it to my dealer since I don't have the battery grip (dumb design, but that's another topic).

The back was at 5.1.8, so I've updated it to 5.2.2. I ran through a dozen clicks with no problem, but it's way too early to claim success. Since I've already done the firmware update, I think I'll hold off cleaning contacts so that I'm trying one thing at a time. If (when?) it acts up again, I'll take the next step.

I don't know if one out of 10 is accurate, but I know one morning it froze up on the first shot. Once freed, it worked a couple of times and then hung up again. Just as Graham described with the extra "thunk" after the mirror opened. I think the actual sound sequence is click-click .... thunk - curse.

Lately, I've stopped using mirror lockup and have just been taking my chances with sharpness. After missing the best of some quick changing light at dawn, I figured the risk of a slightly soft image is better than no image at all.

 

[Wayne Fox]

Craig

This my pet peeve with the DF and there seems to be a lot of denial about it in the forums but you'll find in reality that a quite a few of us run into this occasionally. To be clear for this here, we're not talking about the back/camera losing communication "NoDB" , this is the mirror/shutter locking up.

Mine does this occasionally, and I think it is the same problem, it's just a matter of timing. I do know that occasionally when moving my camera the mirror will suddenly pop up because the DF loses communication with the back. This can happen from vibrations or small shocks to the body. I think every once in a while, the clunk from the mirror locking up causes this same thing to happen ... so you think everything is normal except the camera doesn't fire ... only good fix is drop the the battery out of the DF, and occasionally it also requires powering the back off and on, or with me more often than not requires disconnecting and reconnecting the back.

It is pretty rare for me but has happened on several occasions. I have had it happen when the backs battery is very low as well but honestly I haven't paid enough attention to notice if it's happening only when the batter is low. It's a small nuisance to me since not much of what I shoot depends on timing.

I haven't loaded the new firmware on yet (doing it today before heading out on a shoot this evening) but I have tried cleaning the contacts which didn't seem to make any difference.

 

[multigary]

I have had this same problem with my DF body since day 1 (almost 2 years now). I'm happy to learn that I'm not the only one, but it doesn't make me feel any more confident using the camera, and I would never be able to safely use it for anything other than Landscape or Architectural work. Even then I've missed some great moments when the camera locked up. (Of course, it's not just the missed shot that hurts, but the time lost fumbling to unlock it).
At first, I thought it was user error. But now I'm certain it's not. Firmware updates have not helped. I try to use fully charged batteries, but they can't be fully charged throughout a shooting session. It has happened in cold weather and warm weather. In the mountains, standing next to Kevin Raber, and at the Pacific ocean, with Dave Gallagher nearby. They fiddled with the camera but had no explanation or advice.
I'm about to move to an IQ back, so it will be interesting to see if the failure rate decreases or is eliminated. If indeed it is a camera hardware problem not correctable with software updates, I think it would be appropriate and kind for Phase One to issue a recall (like car companies often do) to remedy this situation. I think that is the right thing to do, especially considering the high cost of the DF body, as well as it's status as a "professional" camera.

 

[GrahamWelland]

Mine does this occasionally, and I think it is the same problem, it's just a matter of timing. I do know that occasionally when moving my camera the mirror will suddenly pop up because the DF loses communication with the back. This can happen from vibrations or small shocks to the body. I think every once in a while, the clunk from the mirror locking up causes this same thing to happen ... so you think everything is normal except the camera doesn't fire ... only good fix is drop the the battery out of the DF, and occasionally it also requires powering the back off and on, or with me more often than not requires disconnecting and reconnecting the back.

Wayne, that's interesting that you've had spontaneous mirror pops. I haven't had that happen before. Is your IQ really tight on the DF body? The first IQ I had was loose on my Alpa and firm on the DF. The replacement is absolutely rock solid on both, just like my P40+ before it and my new (to me) P25+. The vibration & timing & contact integrity could all be involved I suppose, especially given the apparent random nature of this. What is interesting though is that there definitely is an audibly different sound for the shutter/mirror when it locks up - I can spot it immediately.

 

[Craig Stocks]

I'll be having some very direct conversations with my dealer. It's really a big deal to me since I do primarily landscape work with this system. If this were a brand new Lexus or Buick and it died occasionally when you turned on the radio, I'd sure bet you'd be leaning on the dealer to fix it. (Especially if the only way to get going again was to park the car, get out, lock all the doors, and then start over from scratch.) If they couldn't fix it, you'd be looking at the Lemon Law for a refund. I find it completely irresponsible of Phase One to let this issue linger and not provide a fix.

 

[padams]

I think the latest firmware for the IQ backs fixes this, no?

 

[Wayne Fox]

Craig

This my pet peeve with the DF and there seems to be a lot of denial about it in the forums but you'll find in reality that a quite a few of us run into this occasionally. To be clear for this here, we're not talking about the back/camera losing communication "NoDB" , this is the mirror/shutter locking up.

What I find happens is that you are using mirror lock-up and auto timer release or cable release. You fire the first shutter release and the mirror will lock up. 99% of the time everything works as expected. Occasionally when the mirror goes up you'll hear a slightly different "twack" sound than the normal MUP sound. At that point the shutter won't release and you need to go through the power off, battery out and occasionally back off sequence for the mirror & shutter to reset.

A few things that seem to have more of an impact on this. First, make sure that the batteries in the body are at full charge - it seems relatively sensitive to power drop off of the camera batteries. For example, when it's cold you'll have a greater propensity for this to happen. (I recall a cold morning at the Grand Canyon where three of us had this happen - you could almost listen out for the profanities ... ). However, it's not just cold/power related. Secondly, make sure that the battery in the back is at full power too. Thirdly, get the latest firmware for the body as you can as I hear that this is a problem they're still trying to alleviate.

I'm lead to believe that the issue is something basic in the back/body communication design & timing. My DF came back with firmware 1.2.3 recently and seems less prone to the problem but it has definitely happened at least once. It was fairly common with my P40+ although it's too soon to tell with my IQ.

In summary, you're not alone. There isn't a magic solution to this problem that I'm aware of other than the feeling of russian roulette at times - normally pre-dawn, waiting for the light and at the most inappropriate and *#$*##*$ annoying times. 99.9% it'll go 'click', and then occasionally more of a 'clunk/twack' sound. You learn to recognize the sound.

Wayne, that's interesting that you've had spontaneous mirror pops. I haven't had that happen before. Is your IQ really tight on the DF body? The first IQ I had was loose on my Alpa and firm on the DF. The replacement is absolutely rock solid on both, just like my P40+ before it and my new (to me) P25+. The vibration & timing & contact integrity could all be involved I suppose, especially given the apparent random nature of this. What is interesting though is that there definitely is an audibly different sound for the shutter/mirror when it locks up - I can spot it immediately.

Yes, back seems quite secure, and when I mount it the contact points appear to have plenty of latitude so they should make good contact.

Makes sense the sounds would be different where in one case only the mirror pops up and in the other the fp shutter also opens. (why can't this happen with mirror lockup when shooting a LS lens?). I've just never noticed it.

Loading new firmware now ... hope it helps.

 

[GrahamWelland]

I think the latest firmware for the IQ backs fixes this, no?

No. It apparently fixes the No-DB error that some folks have had. That's a different problem just with the IQ backs.

I installed the latest IQ firmware on my IQ160, DF has 1.23 and I can confirm that it definitely does not 'fix' the lock up problem with the mirror/shutter based on the observation that it has happened once to me since that upgrade.

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

At these prices you would think these cameras would be better designed. Having confidence that your gear will work properly, allows it to become an extension of your creativity. Having to re-set and install batteries so it works for a few dozen captures, and then do it again is ridiculous.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

We are talking about a 4k body just like a Canon. This is not a back issue. Let's be clear here

I'm not here to defend it far from it but it's not running rampant either. I personal think it is a low voltage issue. I was told by a phase tech not to use the eneloops at one time since that battery Mha was to low. I switched and this issue has not come up again. Problem is it is not consistent and variable. For all we know the battery carrier could be the culprit.

It's happened a few times out of 15k images to me. Now the OP sounds to have a much more serious issue here. This is not happening among thousands of users.but I certainly have seen it.

 

[multigary]

My shutter locks up every 40-50 acuations. It's quite frustrating.

 

[GrahamWelland]

We are talking about a 4k body just like a Canon. This is not a back issue. Let's be clear here

I'm not here to defend it far from it but it's not running rampant either. I personal think it is a low voltage issue. I was told by a phase tech not to use the eneloops at one time since that battery Mha was to low. I switched and this issue has not come up again. Problem is it is not consistent and variable. For all we know the battery carrier could be the culprit.

It's happened a few times out of 15k images to me. Now the OP sounds to have a much more serious issue here. This is not happening among thousands of users.but I certainly have seen it.

Guy,

I suspect that your workflow, as with most commercial shooters who aren't almost exclusively shooting with MUP or MUP/timer release, probably makes the chances of this happening less than say purely landscape shooters. That's just my supposition. Btw, I actually think that it is a lot more prevalent than perhaps people let on - I'm sure that there are many people out there who just suffer in silence actually.

I'd agree that it isn't something that happens every day, but one or two times over a weekend, regardless of how many shots you've taken is enough to royally piss you off. If it just missed the shot it wouldn't be so much of a problem - I.e. If you pressed the shutter a second time and it released for example. However, having to do the deconstruction dance ALWAYS seems to happen when time is short and you're trying to get that shot in rapidly changing light. When you miss shots it makes this problem take on a whole different level of annoyance.

The Mamiya interface has never been very reliable in my experience, going way back to my DCS645M & AFD that would lock up regularly. In fact, it happened so much that I dumped that MF system completely and went back to Nikon. The DF system had me considering a body platform change to the HY6/AFI or Contax earlier this year myself. I'm pretty sure that what we have is an inherent unreliability in the camera/back interface where timing is concerned. I'm sure that if it was easy to fix then it would have been done so already because this isn't a new issue or a surprise to either Mamiya or Phase One. However, they should at least acknowledge the problem and provide some real feedback about (a) how to minimize it, (b) what the nature of the problem really is, & (c) give us a roadmap to fixing or a DF replacement strategy.

I know that there is discussion about a new body coming down the pyke. However, that's a ways off and I agree with other folks that this shouldn't happen - ever. You mention that it is a $4k camera body ($5k+ unless you have a discount btw) like a Canon - none of my film canons ever did this and neither have any of my digital Nikons from the D1 through to the D3x ever been this unreliable, or even have a single significant glitch of this magnitude.

I'm trying not to be melodramatic about this problem but I personally think that it is significant. I tolerate the DF camera at best unfortunately as it basically is the only platform that I can use alongside my Alpa for Phase One backs and up to date glass. if current Hasselblads supported the Phase backs I'd have jumped ship a while ago.

Btw, I hope you don't think that this a vent at you - it's just an expression, again, of my (our) frustration with this issue. P.s. How about a lock-up sweepstakes in NH this week?