Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    77
    Post Thanks / Like

    leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    Now that Phase One owns both Leaf and Mamiya, I wonder if there is
    really any difference between the backs from these three companies.
    I have never seen a "comparison" where the advantages and disadvantages
    of one brand over the other is presented. Does anyone have such
    information?

    As a corollary, why would Phase One continue to operate each company,
    at least in terms of making backs?

    Thanks
    craig

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    255
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    Phase wholly owns Leaf but not Mamiya - only a controlling interest I believe.

    Phase will continue to operate Leaf for the time being, as there is a running production line of backs, which are priced lower than Phase, and provide similar image quality but with less additional functions. Leaf and Phase have different color styles. Leaf bare functionality is more appropriate for photographers who never leave the studio and always work tethered and with lighting.

    Keeping Leaf alive enhances the Phase paradigm of an open system with high modularity.


    Regarding differences:

    Mamiya ZD back - only one model (22MP), difficult connectivity and software, only 14 bit, useable only at ISO 100, very outdated.

    Leaf Aptus II line - a body from about 5 years ago, large screen, low resolution, crude touch, no multi-touch. Highest ISO is 800 with some noise. Larger sensors have the option to use only part of the sensor for smaller and faster captures. Will work properly only with special Leaf Firewire cables and original Leaf batteries (both expensive and hard to find). Less durable than Phase. Raw files do not open in Photoshop - must use converter first.

    Phase One - new generation hi resolution iphone style multi touch screen. USB3 connection - faster and cheap non breaking cables. Has option to combine 4 pixels into 1 pixel at higher sensitivity up to ISO 3200 at very good quality. very durable. Live view on back screen.
    Last edited by shlomi; 5th October 2011 at 11:35.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Marseille, FRANCE
    Posts
    972
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    "which are priced lower than Phase"

    all the P65+ refurb on the market isn't really good for leaf...

  4. #4
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post

    Regarding differences...
    This is some interesting info, but I'm afraid a bit too broad to be of real use until you try the individual backs themselves.

    I can find examples on this very forum that refute basically all of the negatives about both the Leaf (and ZD) backs. This isn't to say that the comments aren't pointed in the right direction... but they are definitely lacking perspective from the the viewpoint of the broad user base I know of on this forum.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    255
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    They are based on personal hands on experience with ZD and several Leaf models. My Phase One comments are based on reading, but I stand behind every the Leaf and Mamiya comment. I own a Leaf now and for the past 1.5 years.

  6. #6
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    I wasn't clear in that I was addressing the "never leave studio" comments. I shoot Leaf as well , on location, often only in natural light to good effect, and know many others that do as well.

    .... I do agree about the majority of spec-related comments.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    255
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    Of course you can leave the studio with a Leaf.
    I do locations with tether and lighting.
    It is possible to do untethered and unlighted work as well, but I think it is hard to argue that Phase would be better at that, for those that can afford it.
    I have the highest sensitivity Leaf, and I wouldn't feel confident taking a natural low light assignment with it.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Hong Kong / Asia
    Posts
    524
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    Leaf Aptus II line - a body from about 5 years ago, large screen, low resolution, crude touch, no multi-touch.
    Speaking as an amateur who pays hard earned cash for my gear, my choice for Leaf was because it was superior to my Mamiya ZD which had problems (at least at time, 2007-2008). My first Leaf was 28MP Aptus 65 and I was very pleased with performance, durability, service and support, and the LARGEST IN BUSINESS DISPLAY. 4-5 months ago I upgraded to the new 80MP AFi-II 12 which still have same size display . It has the NEW CHASSIS which is modern and with tilting display which I actually find very useful. I use it on Rolleiflex Hy6 camera which is the most advanced, comfortable and enjoyable medium format camera for digital back. Mine is with waist level finder which is a joy to use. The AFi back has the rotating sensor which works superbly with the Hy6. Oh, forgot the lenses, I have two; Xenotar 80/2.8 PQS which is the most fantastic lens I have ever owned. It is not only sharp but with a wonderful character that vary based on aperture and subject distance. In some conditions it can even seem to swirl almost like a petzval, while in most conditions it is SHARP and with a lovely rendering. My second is the Carl Zeiss Distagon 50mm FLE which is superbly sharp. I believe both are similar in sharpness to large format digital lenses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    I can find examples on this very forum that refute basically all of the negatives about both the Leaf (and ZD) backs.

    What negative of Leaf backs??? Over the years the only ones that have been "claimed" by those who not use Leaf is of the display not being bright in bright sunlight and the fan vents. The AFi-II and Aptus-II series have improved display brightness. I never found much problem with my Aptus 65 even and much lesser so with my AFi, but I also do not expect to be able to see any display well with bright light shining direct onto it, simply it is merely a tool. The vent is a non issue and actually helps cooling the back which is an advantate. In repeat no issues have been confirmed with the vents in various forums. I shoot landscapes and while I care for my gear well, I use them as TOOLS and would not worry taking it out to shoot in any condition where I can capture good image. The only item of my gear that really sees a beating is my tripod . That said I believe a Leaf would take abuse... but it cost $$ so why should I beat my tripod down with it? Actually my Aptus 65 dropped on hardwood floor once, bouncing like a ball and rollling. Scary, but... it worked perfect as charm after the incident. The battery though was damaged (sort of like the air bag ).

    One more note... I actually did not plan to upgrade to the 80MP, but the PRICING from Leaf in my area (Hong Kong) as compared to Phase One made it a no brainer for the significant step up in image quality over what the 56MP Leaf would have brought me... From Phase One dealer even the IQ160 was out of range for me... To finance my purchase I sold off most of my gear from five camera systems. It is interesting what one collect over years...and what it can yield.

    In the end it comes down to IMAGE QUALITY to me personally and how many years I can get out of the back. The 80MP Leaf can last me perhaps 6 years ahead. What I first and foremost value over prior back is the improved colors, finer gradation of colors, improved shadows, wider DR... and yes... the more pixels probably help in those. Else it is foremost not the pixels that impress, while sure more such are good. Requires very steady when hand holding, thus also a reason for the Hy6 because of its ergonmics and to not need lift camera to head level.

    About Mamiya, the ZD is the only back they have developed on their own. However, also Leaf and Phase One backs have been/are sold as Mamiya branded, depending on geographical region. Those though do not come with upgrade plans and the support from Leaf or Phase One... Important aspect.

    Leaf is great, thanks Leaf

    However, same as other Hy6 users I would love to see a Hy6 Mark II

    Best regards
    Anders

  9. #9
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders_HK View Post
    What negative of Leaf backs???
    That was my point

    I love leaf, use leaf professionally (and personally) and find little to nothing negative about them...

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Hong Kong / Asia
    Posts
    524
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    That was my point

    I love leaf, use leaf professionally (and personally) and find little to nothing negative about them...
    Yes! , and while Phase One now also use Dalsa sensors and well implemented such (Dalsa arguably means better or more pleasing image quality), I am not sure there is much difference in image quality between the latest 80MP backs from Phase One and Leaf, except minor such. The IQ series seem as great interface but price is steep to not justify... my iPhone is cheaper, and Leaf display is still larger than IQs .

    Leaf

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    255
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    I also use Leaf professionally, and have no plans to move to another system, as I am generally satisfied with it. For sure nobody is arguing the image quality has any problems, especially with the new Aptus II 8/10/12 backs.

    However to say there are no drawbacks is an exaggeration.

    - Any work that requires using ISO 400 and more outside, is iffy

    - I did have issues with durability where my back broke resulting from using non original batteries and cables - a $2000 repair I don't think I deserved.

    - Using the back outside in direct sunlight with client at least once it stopped working for a few hours due to excessive heat. This is hard to explain to a client and never happened to me with another camera.

    - Aptus II display is brighter and generally not bad, but still low resolution and basic function.

    - One drawback I forgot to mention earlier is that you can use either battery or cable, but not both together, like Phase can. That means the back is dependent on power coming from the cable. So your computer must be plugged in. Also this means that if you want to use Windows laptop rather than Macbook, then you will need to draw TWO power lines to the laptop - one for the laptop and one for the powered adapter - on Macbook this is not in issue since the connector is internally powered. For me this means I had to buy a Mac despite strong ideological objections I have to that company. This also means that if you want to shoot tethered, you just can't do it without a plug. The Macbook battery is not enough to power the back. I believe Phase backs can do it.

    - Also I can say that I ALWAYS have some problem with tethering to a computer. Sometimes it needs two or three tries to sync, sometimes it goes out for sync in mid work for no reason. This happens very frequently and is a definite problem for me. I've upgraded to the latest technology expecting this problem to go away, but it's still there. I have 3 different computers for tethering, and I am a technologist so the problem is not with how I use them, but with the stability of the connection system.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    447
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    Quote Originally Posted by craigrudlin View Post
    Now that Phase One owns both Leaf and Mamiya, I wonder if there is really any difference between the backs from these three companies.
    Just to be clear: the backs currently offered under the Mamiya brand are re-badged Leaf backs. In the past, Mamiya also offered re-badged Phase One backs in some markets outside the US. The discontinued ZD camera and back were the only medium format products designed and made by Mamiya itself.

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Denmark, Copenhagen
    Posts
    29
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    Quote Originally Posted by shlomi View Post
    - One drawback I forgot to mention earlier is that you can use either battery or cable, but not both together, like Phase can. That means the back is dependent on power coming from the cable. So your computer must be plugged in. Also this means that if you want to use Windows laptop rather than Macbook, then you will need to draw TWO power lines to the laptop - one for the laptop and one for the powered adapter - on Macbook this is not in issue since the connector is internally powered. For me this means I had to buy a Mac despite strong ideological objections I have to that company. This also means that if you want to shoot tethered, you just can't do it without a plug. The Macbook battery is not enough to power the back. I believe Phase backs can do it.

    - Also I can say that I ALWAYS have some problem with tethering to a computer. Sometimes it needs two or three tries to sync, sometimes it goes out for sync in mid work for no reason. This happens very frequently and is a definite problem for me. I've upgraded to the latest technology expecting this problem to go away, but it's still there. I have 3 different computers for tethering, and I am a technologist so the problem is not with how I use them, but with the stability of the connection system.
    I shoot more and more often on location using my Laptop Graphic Station HP. There I connect my AFI7II to the PC's FW400 (not powered) via a simple Firewire repeater Hub. DB to repeater with long FW800 Leaf cable, short cable FW800 to FW400 to laptop. For the power, depending if I get power on location or not I do the following: either bring power to the DB via the Leaf Adapter using the power adapter connected via the small Leaf adapter or bring power from a Quantum Turbo 3 battery pack via the cable SD16. Like this I can in theory shoot for hours without wondering. Generally I need to interrupt the session because the battery in the hand-grip of the AFi goes down. You can also setup your DB to take power from your body, I tried this and this is very good for the connection between PC and DB, until the battery is going down. One battery to power the whole family is not enough.
    I confirm that sometimes it will take me few minutes to have the tethered session working (C1). But once connected no problem of stability .... till the hand-grip battery gives up.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Marseille, FRANCE
    Posts
    972
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    i still very happy with my aptus 22, i'm using it for architecture... what i miss the most is long exposure capabilities...

  15. #15
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    It is important to know that as "Team Phase One" we can now offer a wide range of products and solutions that fit almost every single photographic application, every pocket and every geographic/ demographic segment.

    We share resources, knowledge, experience and technology. We also use a robust support system where dealers and end users can communicate with a global team of technical experts, 6 days a week, 18 hrs a day

    We have repair centres in US, Europe, Middle-East and Asia which reduces costs and turnaround times

    All back models work with Capture One, considered by many to be the benchmark for RAW workflow. Leaf and Mamiya models also work with Leaf Capture, still one of the best applications around

    Have an old 500c/m or a Bronica ETRSi (or a Sinar F) in the cupboard and want to dip your feet in the MFDB world? Don't want to spend a lot of money but want something new, with warranty and with good dealer support? Enter the Aptus-II 5; 25 iso, no wake up cable, big, fat pixels...

    Have a few old Mamiya 645 lenses and want to shoot MF again? Enter the Mamiya DM22; All the convenience of a DSLR body with the look you're already used to

    Looking to get the dust off that RZ and make it into a solid, fast and enjoyable studio camera? Enter the Aptus-II 7, still one of the fastest backs in the market with a large sensor, excellent Live View and file size that is not going to explode your server and an adapter that lets you rotate the back just like in the film days...
    At the weekend you can fit it onto the H1 you borrow from a friend and go shoot some landscapes

    Shoot portraits/ fashion? Don't have an MF camera? How about an Aptus-II 6 (DM28) or an Aptus-II 8 (DM40) with a Mamiya 645DF? Excellent leaf shutter lenses, fastest capture rate, choice of software (Capture One or Leaf Capture)

    Need more? Got more cash to spend? Have a look at the big guns: Aptus-II 10 (DM56) and Aptus-II 12 (DM80)

    Need something a bit special? Aptus-II 10R, 12R, AFi-II 10 and AFi-II 12 with the rotation sensor (and the tilt screen on the AFi). These are hard to beat when it comes to ease of use on a tech camera, a V-series or a Hy6. On the 12R and AFi-12 you can shoot 60MP, 41x41mm square and the back will crop the image on the fly.

    If you use any of the Leaf or Mamiya backs on a technical camera with wide angles, you can utilise the new method for correcting lens cast and falloff in the back. You have a choice of power sources: different battery sizes, external batteries, laptop etc.

    Need really long exposures? P45+ is your daddy

    Need to shoot fast at high iso? P40+, P65+ or their IQ brethren with Sensor+ are the answer!

    Like your iPhone and want a similar user experience on your camera with the best available screen and the most advanced functionality? The IQ backs are the answer!

    Sounds like a big sales pitch I know.....but it IS!!!!!

    BR

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Marseille, FRANCE
    Posts
    972
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Sounds like a big sales pitch I know.....but it IS!!!!!

    BR

    Yair
    not for the Aptus II 7 ... you didn't mention it...

    ;-)

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Hong Kong / Asia
    Posts
    524
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: leaf vs mamiya vs phase one

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    ...with the best available screen...

    Hang on Yair, which side are you on??? .... Leaf screen is still LARGEST IN BUSINESS ....

    My iPhone stays in pocket...

    Mere differing flavors I take ... that is what happens when both are good products.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •