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Thread: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

  1. #1
    fielddominance
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    Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Hello Guys,

    QUESTION- I hate to ask the same old question- What should I get??? (Phase 25+/30+/45+ or a H3DII 31/39???) but I really need a little direction from you guys. Logistically it is difficult for me to really put both platforms into a real world side by side exhaustive test so any feedback you guys can give me is very much appreciated.

    BACKGROUND- I am by trade a commercial director (motion pics) who shoots allot of my own stuff. I have both commercial & corporate clientele and have always included still packages in my contracts. To date I shoot Canon DSLR and shoot the following subject in order of % of work-

    SHOOTING STYLE -
    Product (table and on location)
    Auto & Marine (fast action)
    Fashion (fast action/location)
    Portrait (location)
    Architectural
    Resort

    70% location
    30% studio

    SHOOT NOTES-
    I do handhold allot. dusk & dawn available light as well as allot of daylight strobes.


    GENERAL-

    I already know that there will be an extensive period of acclamation in the transition from DSLR to MFDB and do not expect the MF to replace the DSLR but do want to take my work to the next level and would like an MF that I can push in my fast action low light scenarios.

    INITIAL IMPRESSIONS-

    H3DII -
    I am spending some time with the H3DII this weekend and am initially very impressed with it's build, ergonomics & super glass. I like the 1 battery & do believe that the matching of the 3 major components may render a better overall experience and/or image. The shutter is love/hate!!! I want and do put up battery of 7bs on a moving vehicle and shoot another moving vehicle... so to leaf or not leaf???

    The H just seems high end??? The weight is not an issue for me since I often handhold a 15lbs. or more HD camera.

    PHASE -
    I will admit that I am predisposed to buy a Phase product because they just seem to have presence, market share & experience. Furthermore. I have used Capture 1 software and like it very much. While I like the hardware well enough, I am not particularly impressed by any one component except for the image quality. I also have a GREAT dealer here in town and that ads considerable weight on my decision.

    OTHERS-
    Leaf, Sinar, etc... Wow!!! they look great but I just don't have the bandwidth to include them in this search... but feel free to add to my decision nightmare!!!

    BUDGET-
    When I started to consider the move I budgeted $15K (no glass or accessories) for this move and concluded that a 25, 25+ or 30+ was the right target for my introduction into MF. I can do what I typacally do and go full out- 45, 50, 65 but in todays market I figured I should stay conservative and make some money with the format before I go $40k crazy.

    So, I would like to thank you guys in advance for any and all help... Cheers,
    Prio

  2. #2
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    From your comments on what you shoot, handheld, available light, faster shoots, and budget, this is fairly easy.

    I would strongly suggest one of the 31 MP backs like the P30+ or the H3DII31.

    The choice between those really depends on whether you need a leaf shutter to get up to 1/800 flash sync vs. 1/125 or if you need a faster shutter that can shoot at 1/4000 of a second. If you need the flash sync, then you want the Hassy. If you need the faster shutter or long exposures, then you want the Phase.

    I own an H3DII39 that I use with strobes for the flash sync speed, and for resolution on product shots. I also have the Phase camera with P30+ that I use for available light, faster shooting, and where a 1/125 sync speed works.

    Best,

    Ray

  3. #3
    thsinar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    or the newly introduced "Sinar Hy6 - 65"

    see here and read the details and specs:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...?t=3089&page=3

    best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by harmsr View Post
    From your comments on what you shoot, handheld, available light, faster shoots, and budget, this is fairly easy.

    I would strongly suggest one of the 31 MP backs like the P30+ or the H3DII31.

    Ray

  4. #4
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    As it is today the Hassy 31 and Phase P30 plus with bodies and a 80mm lens can be bought new for 17 to 19k. That is today. The new Sinar was just announced and will be what it sounds like available the end of Sept. sometime and we don't have a price on that yet which we are all interested in hearing. Best advice is figure out the focal plane /leaf shutter issue and try them out. You have the Hassy this weekend , next weekend try out the Phase. Let's make this one perfectly clear the sensor is a Kodak sensor and the same one in all three of them. There will not be a major image quality difference in them except Phase is 1600 right now Hassy is 800 Iso right now with a claim to increase that to 1600. Sinar i would certainly say ISO 800 for sure and after there testing and final firmware that may go up. Between the three the sensor is the same the differences will be functionality and ergonomics. The one good thing there all good and the dealers that sell them are for the most part excellent. There is a lot of handholding here so that part is great. Get a good dealer to start with and the rest will be much easier on you. But you need to figure out the wants and needs . I went Phase because i wanted focal plane plus many other reasons also but get the basic needs figured out than figure what works best for you, many threads here to read that will really help you also. Also ask away there are many experts here to guide you. Plus to boot many sales reps and company representatives to help out.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  5. #5
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    If you are doing a lot of location work with strobes, it sounds as though you may want to look at a leaf shutter system, which leaves Hy6 (aka AFi) or Hasselblad H.

    There are many differences between the systems and frankly only you can decide what you need or don't need. However...

    Some things you definitely should be aware of: Sinar and some Hasselblad backs use an adapter system allowing the back to be used on various platforms, which I think is a big plus. Some systems, again I think this is Sinar and Hass at the moment, use DNG as a raw format, giving you a huge range of processing options. Phase One seems to be the only back offering very long exposure times. Apart from that, and perhaps LCD size, the backs are not so different to each other. You will see much more difference between the camera platforms, and the available lenses (new and used). You should also consider the warranty and price.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    If you are doing a lot of location work with strobes, it sounds as though you may want to look at a leaf shutter system, which leaves Hy6 (aka AFi) or Hasselblad H.

    There are many differences between the systems and frankly only you can decide what you need or don't need. However...

    Some things you definitely should be aware of: Sinar and some Hasselblad backs use an adapter system allowing the back to be used on various platforms, which I think is a big plus. Some systems, again I think this is Sinar and Hass at the moment, use DNG as a raw format, giving you a huge range of processing options. Phase One seems to be the only back offering very long exposure times. Apart from that, and perhaps LCD size, the backs are not so different to each other. You will see much more difference between the camera platforms, and the available lenses (new and used). You should also consider the warranty and price.
    Graham

    Sadly the Hassy does not output DNG. You have to import into Phocus and then export as DNG's. Not a big deal but one more step in the workflow that has to be attended to.

    Woody

  7. #7
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Thanks for correction, Woody.

  8. #8
    fielddominance
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Findings report-

    01. LOVE the Hassey!!! Build, ergonomics, OS, leaf shutter, glass, IQ & PRICE!!! Don't love Phocus.

    02. Phase has the support and the elegant package and all things considered at the same level as the Hassey. C1 Software is the best!! The Mamiya body is a step down from the Hassey... IMO.

    03. No Leaf??? So whats more important?? hi flash sync or hi shutter speed???

    04. The Hy6 looks amazing but I am sure it is priced out of my game and support may be limited here! I can't eval the back and have no reference when it comes down to this unit. Software even worse!!

    04. So it's down to Hassey & Phase. I will try to eval the Phase this weekend.

    Any additional comments???

    BTW- Really appreciate all your advice!!

    Cheers,
    Prio

  9. #9
    thsinar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    hi Prio,

    Why so? Check out the combo prices before jumping to such a conclusion.

    Where are you located to say that the service/support might not be up to what is expected?

    Software: I think you have not been shown the possibilities of this extremely powerful tool. I wish I could explain you, your conclusion would be different.

    best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by fielddominance View Post
    Findings report-

    04. The Hy6 looks amazing but I am sure it is priced out of my game and support may be limited here! I can't eval the back and have no reference when it comes down to this unit. Software even worse!!

    Any additional comments???

    Prio

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Prio,
    I am a happy owner of the Sinar Hy6 and am partial to it for a variety of reasons which may or may not apply to you (interchangeable platforms, rotating back, etc.) After doing your comparisons you may find that Sinar is not for you, but I would respectfully suggest that the reasons you mention (price, lack of support and software) are not valid. Sinar support is second to none, in my personal experience. If the software (eXposure or Brumbaer) doesn't suit you... simply use it to convert the files to DNG and process in the software of your choice... Lightroom, Aperture, Photoshop. Only one minor extra step and the same as Phocus as Woody mentions above. As for price... the jury is still out on that one but when you do compare pricing make certain to factor in the length of the warranty. Extending a warranty on an MFDB for a few years is a matter of several thousands (not hundreds) of dollars.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Prio,
    I am a happy owner of the Sinar Hy6 and am partial to it for a variety of reasons which may or may not apply to you (interchangeable platforms, rotating back, etc.)
    Indeed. It's the only current platform which supports a waist level finder in both orientations, for example. And offers the fastest flash sync of any camera.

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    If the software (eXposure or Brumbaer) doesn't suit you... simply use it to convert the files to DNG and process in the software of your choice... Lightroom, Aperture, Photoshop. Only one minor extra step and the same as Phocus as Woody mentions above.
    Small clarification needed here: if you want to shoot tethered, you must use Exposure. This will save files in DNG format. They can then be processed in software of choice without any further steps necessary in Exposure. If you shoot untethered, you can convert the sinar raw files to DNG in Brumbaer or Exposure. If you get the new Hy6-65 then the back generates DNG files directly, so you can go straight to the software of your choice with no intermediate steps.
    Last edited by Graham Mitchell; 3rd September 2008 at 12:40.

  12. #12
    TMARK
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Sounds like you need a P30+. I have one in Mamiya mount. Very handholdable, good high iso, in fact I think it is much like teh Canon 1ds2 at 800. 1600 is a bit iffy, but doable in a pinch. At base ISO the files are AMAZING. I like teh Mamiya AFd cameras, the new one is really nice. I find teh high shutter speed more useful than high flash sync. When I've needed high flash sync in the past I've rented a Mamiya RZ Pro2D, which accepts the Phase back w/o cables and syncs to 400.

    I happen to have a P30+, in Mamiya mount, for sale in the FS section for $13,000. About 4,000 clicks, like new. Warranty until late January or February 2009. This can be extended through Phase.

    Good luck!

  13. #13
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Graham,
    Thanks for those clarifications... especially the one about the new Hy6-65 which generates in back DNG's as well as jpegs. Really can't wait to see how good those look on the LCD screen...

  14. #14
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    IN point of fact, if you have to shoot all the environments you mention, you will ultimately need two systems (IMHO).

    I bought the Hassy H3D and have never looked back. But there are many times when shooting landscapes in difficult light that I would love to have a focal plane shutter with the capability of using up to 1/4000 second speeds. I get around the problem (temporarily) by using a singh ray variable neutral density filter which provides up to ten stops of light reduction. Works well but basically kills the viewfinder (I mean it really turns black.) So the procedure is to dial in no reduction, compose and focus, then dial in the exposure reduction until the scene fits both shutter speed and aperture. This approach of course works best when on a tripod but then that is the usual scenario when doing landscapes anyway.

    I am hopeful that Hassy comes out with a focal plane shutter body but in the meantime I also have the Hassy 203FE which gets the job done with the CFV II back. Buying into the Phase/Mamiya system is a possibility but then I will need a new stable of lenses which doesn't really work financially.

    Not an easy problem to solve. And note that HARMSR, in his post above, has bought both systems and uses each to its advantages.

    Woody

  15. #15
    fielddominance
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    IN point of fact, if you have to shoot all the environments you mention, you will ultimately need two systems (IMHO).

    I bought the Hassy H3D and have never looked back. But there are many times when shooting landscapes in difficult light that I would love to have a focal plane shutter with the capability of using up to 1/4000 second speeds. I get around the problem (temporarily) by using a singh ray variable neutral density filter which provides up to ten stops of light reduction. Works well but basically kills the viewfinder (I mean it really turns black.) So the procedure is to dial in no reduction, compose and focus, then dial in the exposure reduction until the scene fits both shutter speed and aperture. This approach of course works best when on a tripod but then that is the usual scenario when doing landscapes anyway.

    I am hopeful that Hassy comes out with a focal plane shutter body but in the meantime I also have the Hassy 203FE which gets the job done with the CFV II back. Buying into the Phase/Mamiya system is a possibility but then I will need a new stable of lenses which doesn't really work financially.

    Not an easy problem to solve. And note that HARMSR, in his post above, has bought both systems and uses each to its advantages.

    Woody
    2 systems!!! I was afraid you would say that!!!! And I think you may be right!!! However, acquire the 1 that gets me paid the most first!! I definitely do fast action and I do allot of strobes!!! I use plenty of 4X4 NDs on my PL lens so I am use the that... but i am given allot less time on stills. Definitely don't want to juggle NDs on my stills.

    Scenarios-
    01. First light/dusk- Boat or Helicopter shooting another vessel at high speed
    02. High noon- Array of 7Bs/Magnums shooting another vessel at high speed
    03. First light, dusk, high noon fast action, Arm bolted to vehicle, motion blur backgrounds, with and without strobes
    04. Studio/Location Sports Products & Lifestyle (Fashion)
    04. Studio/Location Products
    05. Studio/Location Portraits
    06. Location Buildings
    07. Location Interiors

    Remember, I love and hold a MkIII!!! but the stuff I have seen you guys produce has me MFDB sick!!! I want to use MF as much as I can and as much as it makes sense.

    So what's it going to be Rick James??? What's going to be my first cam???

    NOTE- Hy6- As sexy as they come!!! Rotating back rocks!!! I saw it on Calumet at $38K... don't know how that comes packaged?? I think Body & E75R.... what do those lens cost???

  16. #16
    thsinar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    The Sinar Hy6 package includes the eMotion 75 LV with revolving adapter, 80mm Schneider AFD lens, WLF, free software, 3-year warranty.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by fielddominance View Post
    NOTE- Hy6- As sexy as they come!!! Rotating back rocks!!! I saw it on Calumet at $38K... don't know how that comes packaged?? I think Body & E75R.... what do those lens cost???

  17. #17
    fielddominance
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Is that the new unit??? What are the other setups??? Details???

  18. #18
    thsinar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Yes, of course, the latest model: we don't sell any old models.

    other possible kits are:

    - Sinar Hy6 - eMotion 54 LV, with or w/o revolving adapter
    - new coming Sinar Hy6 - 65 (Photokina)
    - new coming Sinar Hy6 - eSprit 65 with revolving adapter (Photokina)

    All with 2.8/80mm Schneider AFD, WLF, etc ....

    Prices from our distributor SBI available on their webpage.

    thanks and best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by fielddominance View Post
    Is that the new unit??? What are the other setups??? Details???

  19. #19
    carbonmetrictree
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    I was kind of in the same situation a few weeks ago. Maybe renting some of the equipment to give it a try for a week might help your decision? You could try and give Lance at Capture Integration a call or email, he has been an absolute godsend in getting equipment together. CI has a great rental department!


    Lance Schad
    Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
    Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
    Capture Integration
    [email protected]

  20. #20
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Go into your Canon files and count how many shots are done over 1/500 th of a second or even 1/1000th of a second. Than how many shots had to be shot at 1/250th of a second with flash and could you have gotten away with 125th. You want to fill your needs than count up what you are doing. I don't care what system you buy i am not here to sell anything but i am here to help and IMHO i think you are better off with a focal plane shutter just by the numbers of stuff you are shooting. As i said earlier this is the most important factor for you because you run the gamut of stuff. Either your answer will be both setups or one will lean heavy to one side. Now there is supposed to be a leaf shutter with Phase coming this month from all reports a 80mm that you can use on a Phase body. That is another factor but seriously go count the images up and your real answer lies within that Exif data from your Canon. Your going to make a compromise no question about it but which way is the best overall is what your after. Forget all the marketing and the hype what is your needs is what you should be looking at.

    Now don't get me wrong just because I own a Phase back and body. Meaningless it is what works for me and i like Hassy, Sinars and leaf products and there are days i actually wished i had a leaf shutter but overall the focal plane shutter works best for me and that is what you need to figure out and i say this because of what you are shooting more than anything else. 20 to 30 grand later and it don't work you will be kicking yourself
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  21. #21
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    I'll give you the opposite advice to Guy I've never needed more than 1/1000 but then again I don't have the hot Arizona sun.

  22. #22
    Super Duper
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    I'll give you the opposite advice to Guy I've never needed more than 1/1000 but then again I don't have the hot Arizona sun.
    I mirror that experience ... I just set ISO 50 on my H3D-II/39 and rarely need over 1/800th ... and on the rare occassion I do, I use a ND filter or my Polarizer.

    What I far more frequently need in bright sunny conditions is fill flash for light balancing the subject with the ambient lighting conditions to fill the deep shadow areas, and eliminate "Racoon Eye."

    I do not want to be boxed in with 1/125th top sync speed that forces a smaller aperture ... or makes it difficult to hand hold my HC 150, 210 or even the 350/4. It's another reason I swapped out from a Contax 645 to a Leaf Shutter 645 camera.

    As usual, your mileage may vary based on what you shoot most frequently.

  23. #23
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    I know but we are not shooting speeding boats either.

    Seriously for his shooting he needs to look at the Exif data on his Canon files and see. I would like a leaf shutter too but my need falls more on the focal plane. I still like shooting wide open and in this environment with no clouds sometimes it is a real hard task but fill flash is tougher to do also.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Call me biased, which I am, but I think it is unlikely Hasselblad will introduce a focal plane shutter in a modern design. Moreover if they did it seems very likely they would force you to upgrade to their latest back to use it, so taking it into consideration now would be a moot point. For instance when they released the 28mm lens they locked out all previous Hasselblad backs and all competitors backs.

    In contrast Phase has promised a line of leaf shutter lenses will ship this year and made them compatible with the existing Phase One body which is in turn compatible with just about anything you can physically fit on the rear.

    Comparing Hassy and P1 there is not really any debate which will have an open future and both fast shutter speed (1/4000th) and fast sync speed (likely 1/500th or faster).

    Doug Peterson
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
    Personal Portfolio

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    IN point of fact, if you have to shoot all the environments you mention, you will ultimately need two systems (IMHO).

    I am hopeful that Hassy comes out with a focal plane shutter body but in the meantime I also have the Hassy 203FE which gets the job done with the CFV II back. Buying into the Phase/Mamiya system is a possibility but then I will need a new stable of lenses which doesn't really work financially.

    Woody

  25. #25
    Workshop Member lance_schad's Avatar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Carlos,
    If you are leaning towards the H body, PhaseOne still makes backs that are compatible with the H2 (and we have new H2 bodies available). Also CaptureOne 4.1.2 supports lens corrections for the HC and V series lenses now.

    Also in about two weeks Phase One should be releasing their Leaf Shutter Lenses (yes i know they have been quiet, but they have a lot going on, yeah?)for the PhaseOne AF camera system and then you will have the best of both worlds.

    You mention you like having one battery control the camera and digital back. Just remember if you want to use the Hassy back on a technical camera, you will need to purchase and use their image bank which is around 2K.

    Also the PhaseOne AF body runs on off the shelf AA batteries or rechargeable and the P+ runs off a standard Canon BP-911 type battery ($70 for Phase about $35 for third party) vs the Hasselblad rechargeable grip is $218 + $156 for charger (if you need to replace or spare) also the grip that takes the CR123a batteries is $156+.

    Also if you are in the field and the something happens to the body, on the Phase you can take any off the shelf AFD/II/III and pop your back on it and your off and running. With the Hassy you need to have a matched spare purchased up front.

    Another thing that has made the PhaseOne AF/Mamiya AFD platform popular is the wide variety of lenses available new and on the used market. You can have a complete set of lenses pretty much for the price of one HC lens. We usually recommend that you purchase the most commonly used lenses new and fill in your kit with used ones, which can be manual or AF versions.

    Anyway come one by and take the 45+/30+ out for a spin on both platforms and we'll go through the work-flow again and answer any additional questions.

    L
    Lance Schad
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  26. #26
    TMARK
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    And remember you can also slap and AFd mount back on an RZ for 1/400 sync. when you need it.

  27. #27
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Just testing something folks having a tech issue
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  28. #28
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Maybe this is the wrong thread to bring this up, but maybe not. There seems to be this somewhat spirited/competitive debate about which camera/system is "better", and it usually devolves to discussions, sometimes passionate, about leaf versus focal plane shutter and lenses, then drifts off into a bit less nice discussion about closed systems (Hasselblad) against the rest of the world.

    The fact is that there are needs for both focal plane and leaf shutter systems. Not an easy task to achieve in any one camera or system.....so far. Phase, touting the always coming leaf shutter lenses, and folks dumping on Hasselblad for constant forward motion (progress?) in their designs and offerings. Personally, if your work is as diverse and demanding as expressed, then both systems may be the ticket. If, on the other hand, like a lot of us, you are seeking a one camera/system solution, well, that really does not yet exist.

    I find it hard to believe that lenses designed several years ago, before newer technology requirements, are best solutions to possible design changes. While most companies try to promote loyalty and compatibility of older things from their system, it may be an Achille's Heel of sorts. True the new Hassy 28 does not work on older Hasselblads. It was designed for the new capabilities of the newer system. While none of us like the thought of replacing glass, we sometimes fail to see some of the shortcomings of older system designs that were never built with some of the newer technology in mind. This causes the camera makers to constantly hamstring themselves with some design issues for compatibility that may actually be not so great.

    Bottom line from my perspective is that nearly all cameras/systems today can more than get the job done. Some of those jobs do require focal plane shutters, while others are better handled with leaf shutters. While I too have been waiting, wishing, hoping for a single camera solution, I am beginning to think that is a ways off, and everything today is more of a compromise to accommodate older designs for compatibility. My thoughts are go with the camera/system/lenses that best serves your primary needs. Add a different camera/system/lens to meet the other needs as they demand. No one system is perfect at this point. I keep leaning toward Hasselblad myself, but also think about having a Phase for the other needs. I remain unconvinced that Phase/Mamiya will produce a lot of the dual use lenses, and I do not see them being all that cheap either. Hope I am wrong. You can either wait for that line-up to eventually be designed and released, or you can start in one system now and change/add as your needs dictate. If high shutter speeds are more important the higher sync speeds, go that route. If you shoot a lot of flash and studio stuff, the leaf shutter may be the better choice. Getting it all in one package is still not there, despite what Phase keeps promising. And Hasselblad probably still has a lot of new tricks coming ahead also, but not there now without multiple bodies coming into play.

    The ONE camera does not yet exist in any line.

    LJ

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    The ONE camera does not yet exist in any line.
    It sure doesn't...

    And at present, the cheapest 2-camera solution is a Mamyia AFD and an RZD with AFD adapter plate. HOWEVER, that cheapest solution may also be the best for now.

    With the above RZ/AFD combo you get WLF in both orientations just like the Rollei/Sinar/Leaf AFi. Here the Hassy H is horizontal only with WLF which is all but useless for studio portraiture IMO. So bottom line is you really get a three-fer system with the two Mamiya bodies.

    The ONLY limitations are the RZ is larger and heavier than the Rollei, but still totally hand-holdable; the max shutter speeds are limited to 1/400th instead of 1/1000th, which is not really a serious limitation for studio or even mixed outdoor strobe lighting; and the RZ is totally manual focus -- this may be the one deal breaker for some if they have to have WLF or high flash synch with AF...

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Call me biased, which I am, but I think it is unlikely Hasselblad will introduce a focal plane shutter in a modern design. Moreover if they did it seems very likely they would force you to upgrade to their latest back to use it, so taking it into consideration now would be a moot point. For instance when they released the 28mm lens they locked out all previous Hasselblad backs and all competitors backs.

    In contrast Phase has promised a line of leaf shutter lenses will ship this year and made them compatible with the existing Phase One body which is in turn compatible with just about anything you can physically fit on the rear.

    Comparing Hassy and P1 there is not really any debate which will have an open future and both fast shutter speed (1/4000th) and fast sync speed (likely 1/500th or faster).

    Doug Peterson
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    You're probably right Doug ... but we can dream on for a Focal plane H body ... after all, they did it before with the V series.

    Personally at this point of my lens line-up, I'd rather get a second focal plane shutter body than duplicate all my lenses with leaf shutters ... because in my work I need ALL the lenses to Leaf shutter, not just some. I also need a camera with a W/L finder.

    BTW, Hasselblad didn't make me buy a whole camera, or a digital back, to purchase the H2F. Don't see why they would do that IF they came out with a Focal Plane body.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    The ONLY limitations are the RZ is larger and heavier than the Rollei, but still totally hand-holdable; the max shutter speeds are limited to 1/400th instead of 1/1000th, which is not really a serious limitation for studio or even mixed outdoor strobe lighting
    There's a significant difference between 1/400 and 1/1000: about 1 1/3 stops. The Canon with 1/250 is only 2/3 stops behind the RZ. Still it's a big improvement over the 645AF.

    Btw, there is one other real limitation of the RZ: 50mm is the widest rectilinear lens.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Phasinhas. Yea just announced at Photokinia. Get one today
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    It sure doesn't...

    And at present, the cheapest 2-camera solution is a Mamyia AFD and an RZD with AFD adapter plate. HOWEVER, that cheapest solution may also be the best for now.

    With the above RZ/AFD combo you get WLF in both orientations just like the Rollei/Sinar/Leaf AFi. Here the Hassy H is horizontal only with WLF which is all but useless for studio portraiture IMO. So bottom line is you really get a three-fer system with the two Mamiya bodies.

    The ONLY limitations are the RZ is larger and heavier than the Rollei, but still totally hand-holdable; the max shutter speeds are limited to 1/400th instead of 1/1000th, which is not really a serious limitation for studio or even mixed outdoor strobe lighting; and the RZ is totally manual focus -- this may be the one deal breaker for some if they have to have WLF or high flash synch with AF...

    Cheers,
    Sorry Jack, but I'll never carry a RZ around at an event or wedding, or many of the commercial location shoots I do ... love the camera ... in the studio, on a tripod.

    I just want a focal plane shutter H camera and I'm a deliriously happy guy

    But just like a lot of this speculative stuff ... it's vaporware.

    There's just nothing out there to solve the dual need problem ... C645 focuses to slowly ... been there, done that. Didn't like the Mamiya AFD-II, been there, done that.

    So for now it's the H camera as it is, which is more than fine. And for the few times I want that focal plane, super fast lenses gig, I just use the 203FE ... and wish they'd make a bigger sensor CFV.

    If Sinar/Leaf/Rollei landed with a Focal Plane Hy6 body that also worked with their Leaf shutter AF lenses like the 203FE does with CF/CFi and CFE lenses set on F ... I'd swap out from Hasselblad so fast Linda Blair's head would spin

  34. #34
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    There's a significant difference between 1/400 and 1/1000: about 1 1/3 stops. The Canon with 1/250 is only 2/3 stops behind the RZ. Still it's a big improvement over the 645AF.

    Btw, there is one other real limitation of the RZ: 50mm is the widest rectilinear lens.
    If you are buying all new PQS lenses you get 1/1000 sync, but then you would be dropping $16k USD on three lenses. Most of the used lenses that are reasonably priced are PQ lenses which sync at 1/500. In reality, unless you drop alot of money or rent lenses, you will be working with the PQ lenses at 1/500, which is better than teh RZ's 1/400, but not by much.

    I love the Hy6 and the 6008, but the scarcity of used lenses and the price of the new lenses put me off.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Btw, there is one other real limitation of the RZ: 50mm is the widest rectilinear lens.
    Yes, but remember this is a 2-body kit, and the widest rectilinear lens for the AFD is a 28.

    Also just curious since you mentioned it, what is the widest rectilinear AF lens for the Rollei?
    Jack
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Sinarblad.

    Hassenleaf.

    Mamiyablad.

    PhaseTwo 'n One.

    - Mr. Silly.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    I agree with Guy's assessment. I also find the focal plane shutter to be more than adequate. Lenses without leaf shutters tend to be somewhat smaller and lighter in weight, a little faster, and can allow significantly closer focusing distances. In addition, if a lens shutter fails you immediately lose the use of the lens; any shutter failures on a focal pane body would allow you to swap out the body and keep using the lens.

    As for flash sync, in the studio you may find it more convenient to not use any strobes and use only hot lighting. In other cases with strong ambient light (e.g., outdoor fill flash) and where you would need a 1/500 flash sync, you can use a 2-stop ND filter to bring down the sync speed to 1/125.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    As for flash sync, in the studio you may find it more convenient to not use any strobes and use only hot lighting. In other cases with strong ambient light (e.g., outdoor fill flash) and where you would need a 1/500 flash sync, you can use a 2-stop ND filter to bring down the sync speed to 1/125.
    The problem with that idea is that you are normally shooting people with this mixed light setup, and so you need to constantly focus and use the viewfinder. An ND filter makes that difficult or could even stop AF from working completely.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    His bigger issue is stopping action even in bright light with boats and cars i think it was .He is going to need a fast shutter 1/500 is going to be a real test on him to stop motion. Reason I said look at his EXIF data and see where he is at. I am looking specifically at his situation and not in general terms. We good argue all day between leaf and focal plane granted but looking at what he has to deal with than i think we need to look more at the speed factor even though some of his other work may need to be adjusted differently. Like pick the poison that is less deadly to you.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    The problem with that idea is that you are normally shooting people with this mixed light setup, and so you need to constantly focus and use the viewfinder. An ND filter makes that difficult or could even stop AF from working completely.
    Yes, I can see that. If you are more dependent on AF, then this might prove difficult for you. I have never had any problems though, and I use this technique with wide aperture outdoor portraits with plenty of light still coming through the viewfinder, at least for me. Everyone is different, so the best is to test things out and go with what works best for you.

  41. #41
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    A breakdown IMO:

    SHOOTING STYLE -

    Product (table and on location):
    Leaf Shutter cameras are traditionally used here ... including view camera lenses. In ambient lit locations stop action pours, food steam, etc., is much easier to capture.

    Studio Hot Lights are usually HMIs like the Dedolite system ... which some Multi-Shot photographers I know use. 3000 w/s of true Hot Lights have to be experienced to learn why few use them. I've been on maybe 100 contracted photo shoots in recent years, and not one used hot lights ... except a couple using HMIs which are much cooler running.

    Auto & Marine (fast action):
    A vast majority of Pros I know use DSLRs for this type work for the superior continuous AF, 1/8000th shutter, and selection of long, fast aperture glass. If a MFD were to be used with something like a 350mm the AF is sloooooow ... but this application would definitely favor the Focal Plane MFD.

    Fashion (fast action/location):
    Either shutter type can work here ... if strobes are used then the up to 1/800th sync of the H3D-II/31 definitely has the advantage with ambient location action shots ... both tend to work for studio action because of the light level control and short strobe duration ...

    Portrait (location):
    Either works ... I like Focal Plane shutter when using just ambient light ... and Leaf Shutter for flash so I can balance ambient and fill while using a larger aperture.

    Architectural:
    Either works.

    Resort:
    Either works for most shots ... Resort Action/Beach favors the 35mm DSLR again with 1/8000th.

    70% location, 30% studio:
    My experience with the photographers I've hired has been that many use both. However, the Focal Plane camera tends to be a DSLR like a 1DsMKIII more often than a Focal Plane MFD.

    SHOOT NOTES-
    I do handhold allot. dusk & dawn available light "
    Either works here.

    ... as well as allot of daylight strobes.
    Leaf Shutter has the upper hand here.

    Horses for courses.

    My personal solution is a leaf Shutter MFD, and a high end DSLR for the focal plane stuff ... but wouldn't mind a supplemental H Focal Plane camera

  42. #42
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Nice breakdown Marc.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Auto & Marine (fast action):
    A vast majority of Pros I know use DSLRs for this type work for the superior continuous AF, 1/8000th shutter, and selection of long, fast aperture glass. If a MFD were to be used with something like a 350mm the AF is sloooooow ... but this application would definitely favor the Focal Plane MFD.
    Most of the high quality auto shots I've seen have been long exposure, with the car moving very slowly, like this:



    It wouldn't look right to have wheels without blur.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    I just want the car. That's just sexy and I don't like white cars
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Most of the high quality auto shots I've seen have been long exposure, with the car moving very slowly, like this:



    It wouldn't look right to have wheels without blur.
    Well, the question is ... what kind of "action" car and boat shots is Prio shooting?

    If it's motor sports or boat racing I don't think it'll be shot like that sample.

    Out of curiosity, I wonder how that shot was done?

    You say the car was moving slowly ... but the exif data says it was a 5.7 second exposure using an Aptus 75 @ ISO 50 using a 35mm at f/23. Yet the car itself is pretty crisp with zero motion blur.

    Looks like some sort of motion control rig, or a camera car traveling with the Porche and an overhead strobe bank was fired

    For all we know, it could be a strip job.

  46. #46
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Out of curiosity, I wonder how that shot was done?
    It was taken with a 7m long rig attached to the car, and later retouched out. The engine was not running, to reduce vibration. The car was rolling slowly.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Cheaters. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    It was taken with a 7m long rig attached to the car, and later retouched out. The engine was not running, to reduce vibration. The car was rolling slowly.
    Thanks, I knew it had to be something tracking with the car ... interesting.

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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Must of set up a bank of continuous light to run through. Looks like they just pushed the car and hit a remote shutter. Repeat 20 times until they got it
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  50. #50
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    Re: Same Old Question!! What do I get??? Please Help

    Thanks for the detailed breakdown!!!

    Yes, I attach a rig to the car... then I paint/roto it out. I also do it with boats so that the pilot and the models are tracked while the BG blurs.

    The house I rent from also has a glass rig!! I have never used it but it is solid glass. CRAZY!!!

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