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Thread: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

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    Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Ok so I picked this up today. http://www.ebay.com/itm/160666534951...ht_4968wt_1165

    I am a little concerned that I might have paid too much. When I bid on it I did it fast because I thought it was a CFV-39. At that price it would have been a steal. Then I looked at the pictures in the listing a little better and noticed the square sensor. What do you think? I would have liked to have been around $4500 but these backs seem hard to come by. I would have preferred the CFVII at this price, but I just dont know. In the end I am just going to shoot it and have fun, but I want to make sure I didn't pay too much.

    Thanks,
    Tony

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    The odd thing is the box says CFV 39. The serial number on the box does not match the serial number on the back. Should it?

    Sorry, I have no idea on a fair price, though.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    yeah thats what threw me off. The listing was definitely misleading but in the end it is a clean CFV 1 for $5500. I think I am in the park just on the high side for a CFV 1. I have been wanting to put a DB on my V for a long time. I am pretty sure I won't be selling unless the crop factor becomes an issue. I shoot mostly landscapes and abstracts and I prefer longer lenses. Stitching with my flexbody is always a possibility for wider landscape images. I can't help but wonder if I would be losing anything by getting the P20 instead, they seem to be less expensive and the longer exposure times could be a factor for me. I have some decisions to make before the CFV ships. Thanks for your reply.

    Tony

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    The listing could easily be construed as misleading to the unwary eye, but the seller did disclose that the box was not original and was from a CFV-39. To be very clear, the listing should have said it was a CFV-16, especially now that the CFV-39 and CFV-50 are out there (and considering the mismatched box).

    Did you pay too much? I think it's safe to say that you paid top dollar for a CFV-16, original version.

    In any case, I hope you enjoy using the CFV!

    Gary
    CFV-16 II

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Yeah, that is most certainly misleading unless your familiar with the square sensor. I be curious to know how the seller honors a 7 day return, when it's estimated to take almost a month to ship, one way! I'm looking to purchase one too, but only from CONUS.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Looking at your link, I'd say it is misleading.
    Just because the box isn't original, I don't think there was very much description telling you otherwise.

    If it were me, I would exercise their 7 day return policy, contact them first and let them know!

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    thank you for the input I have sent a request to the seller to cancel the transaction. I will keep a look out for something else. Really wanted those fat pixels, but there are other options I think. Thanks again.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Wait for a P30/P30+, I just sold mine for $4400. They really are at the sweet spot for price and performance. The buyer loves it.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    $5.5K is probably on the high end especially if it does not come with any form of warranty whatsoever, that being said I see people easily paying $4K for one and even the old Kodak backs are still being sold for $3K+.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Tony,

    Just my own cent: it is way too expensive. Such 16 MPx backs shouldn't be more than US$ 2'000,- - 2'500,-.
    I would cancel it.

    Best
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony View Post
    but I want to make sure I didn't pay too much.
    Tony
    Thierry Hagenauer
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    IMO, all original packaging should stay with a DB of this caliber. It speaks volumes for the condition of the item and the owner. I agree that a price of approximately, $2500 is a better deal. Take your time and find the right CFV. The P30/30+, although nice DB's, require a cable connection to use on a "V" camera. The matching CFV/ DB, is a thing of beauty.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Sorry Theirry, but I disagree. Maybe your brand goes for that amount, but the CFV 16 goes for $4,000 to $5,000 if you can find one.

    Greg

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Things have turned ugly with the seller.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    I'd not send any money and run away, fast.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Too late, I paid right away. Seller says he already shipped and some other things that weren't so nice. I might just refuse the package.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Hi Greg,

    No problem, if we disagree. It is my opinion that because it is one of the oldest sensor, with the oldest electronics around it, and when getting a 22 MPx at around US$ 4'000,- (see e.g. Graham's 22 MPx eMotion 54, with internal memory, LV, etc ...) that the price is way too much.

    Not be be forgotten: it is a 16 MPx square sensor, which has to be cropped when wanting a 2x3 or 3x4 ratio, making this back close to 11 MPx, resp. 12 MPx.

    In addition to the above comes that the buyer couldn't test the back. There might be some deed pixel lines, a scratched IR filter. 16 MPx sensors are not longer available.

    Well all this make me say that I would never have bought it.

    Thierry

    PS: I don't have or represent any DB brand here, just speaking according to my knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by KYGUY View Post
    Sorry Theirry, but I disagree. Maybe your brand goes for that amount, but the CFV 16 goes for $4,000 to $5,000 if you can find one.

    Greg
    Thierry Hagenauer
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    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Be careful... this is a public forum. (just a reminder). Buyer's remorse generally isn't grounds for a return.

    (but I feel your pain!)

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    My impression is that Hasselblad owners are prepared to pay more for a used CFV-16 back than for similar products from Phase One, Leaf, Sinar etc. I'm confident I could get more than $2,500 for my CFV-16 II, if I wanted to sell it (not likely).

    Gary

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Therein lies the problem. I've been looking for a CFV-16 for the longest time, but have not been able to find one. While the price appears to be slightly on the high side, it comes down to a question of whether one is prepared to pay the premium for something that I would consider on the rare side.

    A CFV-39 goes in the region of USD15k, and let's not even discuss the CFV-50. The CFV-16 has the legendary fat pixel, and it works nicely with the V-series. Considering how much I enjoy shooting with my 500CM, more so that I enjoy shooting with my H4D-31, I'd have gotten some good mileage out of the CFV-16

    Tony, enjoy what you have. It's not something that comes along every day. Especially not in the condition that you got that in.

    If anyone's selling a CFV-16, I'd love to know about it
    My images on 500px : http://500px.com/ghoonk
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    I have a CFV16-11 and all the stuff it came with since new and with very low activations I guesstimate <500 - and if people think that this back is worth $2K - they are in lala land. or to put in in perspective the back to me is worth more than a front and rear lens capr for an Alpa lens

    There is no other back with a square sensor that works perfectly on a 200 series Hassleblad camera without requiring cables and shutter speed limits and thats why I bought one.

    of course there are many many newer nicer more technicall brilliant and lovely backs to choose from - but none of these will do the job with a 200 series body - and there are a few eccentrics out there who still 'rate' the 200 series bodies and their old school F/FE lenses highly.

    The CFV 16 in either guise low megapixel count actually suits the clunkier old style large mirrored hasselbald bodies and lenses - whilst in fat light ( I should have copywrit that) the back delivers beautiful fat rich colour.

    Good luck everyoen with your 2-4K searches!

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    :-(

    If you are able to get out of the sale and would like to discuss options in the lower price ranges from an entity which has a strong public reputation, who warranties their sales, offers simple evaluation rentals and no-questions-asked return policies you can contact a good dealer. This is a selfish/shameless plug in that we are a Phase One / Leaf dealer. But trust me when I say I'd much rather see you work with a good Hasselblad dealer who competes with us then bounce around eBay.

    The other major benifit of a dealer is that it gives you someone to call when you have questions about the back, software, firmware, upgrade options, accessories, evaluations of obscure lenses etc. The manufacturers are set up to provide primary support through their dealers so are not set up to, themselves, answer the sorts of questions you're likely to have when you start using the system. The forums provide a very good way for you to ask specific and particurarly obscure questions - it's a very friendly and well informed group - but there is a general expectation here that you've done your homework before asking too many simple questions, especially on basic operations or setups. Rather than pour through user manuals that were written many years ago, much of which changes later with revised software or firmware, and pages upon pages of related posts on forums you'd have someone to make a quick call and get an easy answer.

    Failing that, buying from a user on the forum, assuming they have a history on the forum (many posts and/or reviews on the buy/sell forum) sure beats the heck out of most eBay options in my opinion. Many users on this forum have bought and sold several backs/bodies/lenses/accesories and have a known reputation for their full disclosure, careful care of gear.

    But eBay is, to me, the least desirable option. Sometimes major/reputable dealers sell off excess inventory through eBay; I don't include such cases here since you're basically buying from a dealer - you are just using eBay to fuffill the purchase. But more often than not you find either individual photographers or, worse, companies who don't specialize in digital bakcs selling them. If it's a normal camera store or a high-volume ebay seller who doesn't spend 9-5 every day with the equipment I can tell you they are ill-suited to properly evaluate the condition, accessories, and even sometimes the model of the back. With a used back the price to repair even seemingly minor physical/electronic problems can be very high (many of these backs must be opened in a clean room and the spare parts were ordered when they were much more expensive than they would be today to guarentee availability). A small scratch on a filter can easily be more than US$1k depending on the brand/make/model if you have no warranty. Nearly all the pre-owned equipment we sell for instance comes with a clearly stated 6 month warranty and often we are placing that warranty on the equipment ourselves so you can be darned sure we inspect the crap out of the equipment before we sell it so we don't send something out the door with a problem.

    At the end of the day a great price on a back you don't want or which has any issues is NOT a good deal :-).

    My advice is the same every time: Do NOT find a "good deal" and research to see if it's the right back for you, choose what back is right for you and then look for a good deal on it.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Tony,

    After searching for my own CFV-16, I agree with PeterA, the price of $2500 for a CFV-16 is unlikely, so your price is not too far off. As long as your DB arrives in good condition, and its as advertised, you will enjoy this DB. I had the chance to purchase one when I owned an H4D, but couldn't justify the expense. If you decide after using it, that you want the rectangular sensor you can post it here, it will sell.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    You can use the Procentre in UK as a measure for more realistic prices on used Hassy kit with a dealer warranty and support. Mind you quoted prices are in GBP and are likely a bit higher than the selling prices.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Based on the two CFV-16 backs listed as SOLD on the Procentre site.....looks like a price of ~$4,500 USD is about right.
    Gary

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    About 3 month ago the trade in price you could get for a CFV-16 I or II in good condition was about 3k € here in Germany . These backs were then sold for around 4k € or a little more .
    There will hardly be a good back below this price .
    Regards . Jürgen .
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    I didn't mean to come across as being aggressive - but what I can say is that there is nothing special about the CFV16 -(for me) except for the fact that it mates perfectly with both 200 and 500 series blads.

    IF you weren't concerned about the 200 series issue- then I could say that A Leaf 22 or a Phase P25( or +) or a Sinar as mentioned previously - are fine backs offering more than enough headroom to make decent shots.

    Or you can buy a Sinar 75LV which is 33 megapixels and use any number of adaptors to use the back on any camera you like for less than 10K.

    Around the same price point ( slightly used) I am just awaiting delivery of a Leaf Afi 11-7 I bought to use as a back up for my Sinar on tech cameras and I am quite excited about the purchase - Leaf has a beautiful colour straight out of the box and no need for a wake-up cable, a rotating sensor (inbuilt) - really cool!

    However - we are all maybe a year or two away of seeing the price point of excellent backs below $5K - it will happen .

    Good Luck
    Pete

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    I know I am a bit late, but, Just for fun: CFV16 are still rare and for Sale on eBay above 5000, 7000 USD... I can say that back in 2011, 5000 USD was a great price

    I just got one for 5,000 and I love to shoot Square ! this is a question of taste... (this back kicks out my 5D Markii :-)

    cheers

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Tony,

    1) If you feel screwed, you should have done your homework better.

    2) You weren't screwed IF the CVF/16 is in good working order, and you put it to good use. While you may have paid a bit of a premium, you do have to consider that these backs don't come up for sale all that often ... so you could have waited for a longer time, maybe a very long time to get a good one ... time that you could be shooting with it.

    3) There actually isn't a huge difference between the CFV/16 and CFV/16-II. One of the chief differences is that Hasselblad changed the sensor filter to one that is more anti-reflective. The down-side of the new filter is that it is apparently a bit softer, and scratches easier. Personally, I never saw any real difference in performance between the two.

    Frankly, the CFV is unique for use on the 500 and/or 200 series cameras ... not only does it cosmetically match the V cameras with chrome piping, it is the ONLY DB that works without a sync cord from lens to back to trigger it ... having worked with a number of backs requiring sync cord triggering, I can say that it can be and often is the weakest link in the shooting process. This especially true with the older V lenses with the non-locking sync ports which were notorious for being trouble prone. The CVF simply doesn't need all that stuff, clip it on and shoot. Plus, as mentioned by Peter A, no other DB fully works on the fantastic 200 series cameras with a slight modification to the camera.

    To date, I've yet to see a DB that produces the same look and feel of the CFV/16 backs, including the CVF/39 or 50 ... nor for some reason any of the other fat pixel backs.

    Here's my "WORD" on the CFV from the Hasselblad website ... and images shot with the same back you just purchased:

    Planet V - Hasselblad.com

    -Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Marc et al: the thread is from 2011. Just a heads up.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Marc et al: the thread is from 2011. Just a heads up.
    LOL! Thanks Doug.

    Gotta have more coffee before responding to "New Posts" without looking.

    -Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    funny, but my first reaction today is quite different from 2 yrs ago. at that time, 20mpx was not so shabby. tougher to justify today. biggest draw for me with the CV I, II is the native square format, last of the breed, biggest disadvantage is the 1.3 crop, (limiting WA) i could easily live with the IQ, pixel count be damned.

    always loved the V Blad ergonomics, (until they went to the rectangular format CV39)

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    funny, but my first reaction today is quite different from 2 yrs ago. at that time, 20mpx was not so shabby. tougher to justify today. biggest draw for me with the CV I, II is the native square format, last of the breed, biggest disadvantage is the 1.3 crop, (limiting WA) i could easily live with the IQ, pixel count be damned.

    always loved the V Blad ergonomics, (until they went to the rectangular format CV39)
    A big fat 6x6 sensor for the V-series is still a wet dream for me, albeit just a dream. What I will never understand though is why Hassy never made a back with a rotating sensor, not to mention why they discontinued the V-series in the first place. Like Leica still makes the M7 and MP they could have kept it as an alternative to the 645, if nothing else as an exercise in brand management. It's such an iconic camera and such a large part of the Hasselblad heritage.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    among other things, i think the passing of the V has to do with the perceived need for autofocus, something i can live without, being a bit of an iconoclast

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    You frustration is mine too. Trying to understand Hasselblad's decisions on behalf of the V system beats all logic in the multiverse. I've been waiting for a decade for Hasselblad to come with the right back. In the meantime, my system has turned almost into just paper weights.
    Just last week, I started looking (once again) for used d-backs on the internet. After going through, I just managed to get some buying decisions that vaporized every time I turned my eyes to the D800.
    Since I can't just walk into a store and borrow a digital back for a test-drive (my geography doesn't allow it) buying the latest and finest of what DSLR's systems offer makes a lot more sense. God knows how much I wish to shoot with my "V" again, but maybe I am more of a pragmatic person than I ever thought I was.
    I hope the OP enjoys the CFV1. I know I could not. Certainly not for $5.5K!
    Eduardo

    Quote Originally Posted by Mammy645 View Post
    A big fat 6x6 sensor for the V-series is still a wet dream for me, albeit just a dream. What I will never understand though is why Hassy never made a back with a rotating sensor, not to mention why they discontinued the V-series in the first place. Like Leica still makes the M7 and MP they could have kept it as an alternative to the 645, if nothing else as an exercise in brand management. It's such an iconic camera and such a large part of the Hasselblad heritage.
    Last edited by Uaiomex; 27th June 2012 at 16:42.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    among other things, i think the passing of the V has to do with the perceived need for autofocus, something i can live without, being a bit of an iconoclast
    The MF guys have all embraced AF - something personally I also probably use the least on any of my cameras.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    I've been waiting for a decade for Hasselblad to come with the right back. In the meantime, my system has turned almost into just paper weights.
    Why not just use it with film? That's what I'm doing and it's a nice change from shooting digital all the time.

    Flickr: Hassy501CM's Photostream

    /antonio
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Film calls all right but using film nowadays is not that easy anymore. It has to be especially ordered from Mexico City. Then sent back for processing.
    Prices for both film and processing have gone up considerably.
    Scanning. Well, scanning film was never a productive activity. After all this trouble finding out that a simple stitch of 2 images from my 5D2 can produce a better image, the whole project falls.
    Only advantage left is the joy of composing and framing on a big waist level finder and the manual operation of the camera.
    For a very few personal projects it might work though.

    "You can't have it all, especially in the digital age of photography"
    -Eduardo Cervantes

    P.S. Very nice gallery Antonio. thanks for sharing. Love the look of the format. The 3Dness is there almost always. The bokeh is so different to digital. Film rocks, no doubt. There is a strong rumor about a new killer Plustek 120 scanner. This might change present things if true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mammy645 View Post
    Why not just use it with film? That's what I'm doing and it's a nice change from shooting digital all the time.

    Flickr: Hassy501CM's Photostream

    /antonio

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    P.S. Very nice gallery Antonio. thanks for sharing. Love the look of the format. The 3Dness is there almost always. The bokeh is so different to digital. Film rocks, no doubt. There is a strong rumor about a new killer Plustek 120 scanner. This might change present things if true.
    Thanks, that's what I feel too, film definitely has a very different feel to it, so I enjoy shooting both. Here's the scanner you're talking about, and yes it looks very promising indeed. OpticFilm 120 | Introduction | Plustek

    Cheers
    antonio
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Antonio, I just found this at B&H. It good for 6X12 like the Plustek, the only 2 scanners I know that can take this film size. Do you know if this is a Plustek marketed in America as Pacific film?
    The Plustek seems to be sold only in the middle east. They both seem to be HQ'd in Taipei.
    Eduardo
    Pacific Image PrimeFilm 120 Multi-Format CCD Film PRIMEFILM 120

    Quote Originally Posted by Mammy645 View Post
    Thanks, that's what I feel too, film definitely has a very different feel to it, so I enjoy shooting both. Here's the scanner you're talking about, and yes it looks very promising indeed. OpticFilm 120 | Introduction | Plustek

    Cheers
    antonio

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    Antonio, I just found this at B&H. It good for 6X12 like the Plustek, the only 2 scanners I know that can take this film size. Do you know if this is a Plustek marketed in America as Pacific film?
    The Plustek seems to be sold only in the middle east. They both seem to be HQ'd in Taipei.
    Eduardo
    Pacific Image PrimeFilm 120 Multi-Format CCD Film PRIMEFILM 120
    Eduardo, Pacific Image is a different brand and that scanner has gotten really bad reviews, don't waste your money on it. The Plustek OpticFilm 120 has not yet been released but word is it will be out in July and it will be available in most parts of the world. There is a long thread about it over at photo.net, with input from an employee of Plustek, it seems they have very high ambitions with this scanner. Here's the link if you want to read it: Plustek OpticFilm 120 - Photo.net Digital Darkroom Forum

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    "The passing of the V" sounds premature. Hasselblad still lists the 503CW in their line up and it is available from the Hasselblad store.

    I don't think the need for AF is as big a factor as the suitability of the square format V to use 3:4 ratio digital backs with a crop factor coupled with a 40mm being the widest angle lens ... and the fact that you can't rotate the camera for portrait oriented shots when using a rectangle DB.

    For film work, it is hard to beat, and remained my favorite film camera well into the MF digital era until it became to expensive to maintain so may different systems ... film being a luxury not a necessity to do the work at hand.

    -Marc
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    "The passing of the V" sounds premature. Hasselblad still lists the 503CW in their line up and it is available from the Hasselblad store.
    Pretty sure production stopped around 2008, whatever you can find now is old stock.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Thank you Antonio for the warning. I'll wait and see.
    Eduardo

    Quote Originally Posted by Mammy645 View Post
    Eduardo, Pacific Image is a different brand and that scanner has gotten really bad reviews, don't waste your money on it. The Plustek OpticFilm 120 has not yet been released but word is it will be out in July and it will be available in most parts of the world. There is a long thread about it over at photo.net, with input from an employee of Plustek, it seems they have very high ambitions with this scanner. Here's the link if you want to read it: Plustek OpticFilm 120 - Photo.net Digital Darkroom Forum

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mammy645 View Post
    Pretty sure production stopped around 2008, whatever you can find now is old stock.
    All V cameras are discontinued except the 503CW ... which is the camera for the CFV backs. It may be that the production line has ceased, but the camera is yet to be officially discontinued ... not hard to find a new one either. B&H isn't one to hold onto stock for 4 years sitting on some shelf.

    Hasselblad 503CW Camera Body (Chrome) 30 10243 B&H Photo Video

    Trouble is, who would pay that price when so many mint used ones are available?

    -Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Trouble is, who would pay that price when so many mint used ones are available?
    -Marc
    Indeed, the film magazine is $1,067 new, the cheapest of the 4 still available lenses on the usa webstore $4,259, a grand total of $8,786 that is...

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    Many of those prices are legacy prices, from back in the days when people would/could pay that amount for a carefully made and machined MF camera. While the world has changed, its hard for a manufacturer, distributor or vendor to drop the prices substantially when the model is no longer in the limelight. Thus, new models may sit on the shelves for a few years....

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV 1 Did I pay too much?

    I know of one person who was willing to pay the price for a new 503CW, but as he/she discovered, there aren't many who are willing to pay anywhere near that amount for a mint, used 503CW body.

    I bought a 503CW black body with WL finder in like new condition recently for $750.

    Unfortunately, the depreciation on my CFV-16II is pretty steep as well.....but since I have no plans to sell it, I guess that's a moot point.

    Gary

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