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Thread: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Bryan - it is a general truth that people cant handle the truth. Personally I think the forum is too polite too often at the wrong time. But that is probably my rude Antipodean manner.

    It is what it has become this forum - but I would not accuse Jack of a bias not based on his honest assessment of anything - Guy is biased for sure - about everything he currently shoots. Anyone following Guys history with gear in this and other forums over time will know he pretty much falls into and out of love every six months and adapts his workflow and gear choices to what works for him - from a professional perspective - at the time.

    A lot of members though aren't professional shooters and also a lot of people reading forums like this do so in order to get information. If there is too much bias the signal to noise ratio tilts the wrong way. Generally speaking this forum is as ok as one could hope for and probably a lot better than most expect.

    Everyone has their on screen typing style and everyone has their good and bad days - these days with the world looking like it is about to go through round two of a crisis- add nervous jitters to the mix!

    However people with eyes can see great work done by all sorts of cameras on this site and in this forum. As long as that important point continues to be delivered - then the balance is ok.

    my 2 cents
    Pete

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    For me as a Hasselblad user it would just be great, if the H4D would open up again for Phase. Would just give me much more options to choose from. And quite frankly, I really love and prefer the H handling of cameras and lenses to the Phase handling and this would allow me to use a IQ160 on and upgraded H4D body - just perfect.

    Hasselblad move on and make this happen asap!

  3. #53
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    I should make it clear that I do NOT think any bias is a particularly negative one here on Get Dpi, and said so a couple of times on this thread. This is my favorite forum for its general tone and sharing of information across a wide spectrum of photographic subjects. However, IF I disagree with any given statement I'll pipe up and challenge it. Sometimes it is incorrect information (even from Phase reps) or incomplete information, and sometimes it is assumptions that I do not agree with.

    If Hasselblad chooses to not participate in forum reviews in general and Get Dpi specifically, that's their decision. There are two informative forums that specifically provide a direct conduit to other experienced H users to answer technical questions or whatever ... plus, Hasselblad has their own system of demonstrations and specific method of getting questions answered as well as the Hasselblad Owners Club on their website. So, frankly, Get Dpi isn't where I would go for Hasselblad specific technical questions. In fact, I've definitely answered more questions regarding Hasselblad than I have ever asked here. BTW, this has playing out in a similar manner with the Leica S2, where the Red Dot forum is a rich source for technical, service and technique questions.

    This absence could well account for the bias toward Phase One, because there IS a lot of experienced users here, as well as company representation. THAT however doesn't make Phase One systems superior in any way, and I'll challenge such stated assumptions when I feel it is appropriate.

    I do not agree with Steve's statement that Phase One has ALWAYS been ahead in the back end ... that heavily depends on a photographer's applications, and to my way of thinking "AlWAYS" can never be a blanket statement from any maker. That is the difference of a photographer's perspective verses a marketer's perspective. As a Photographer with fairly well defined objectives, I found the H3D-II/39 just as good as the Phase offering in terms of IQ, with a better LCD, one button start up, and control ergonomics, and at the time, the Hasselblad Multi-Shot cameras were the top dog for studio based or institutional IQ ... which then led to a H3D-II/50 with the Kodak sensor that some prefer over Dalsa, and Phase never had ... then to the H3D-II/50 Multi-shot. Again, it heavily depends on applicational bias and phtographic intent. Now the excellent IQs have the lead if you need or want that sort of functionality ... which I personally do not but other's may and are excited about it.

    I may be wrong, but do not recall any official Hasselblad representative ever directly addressing Phase One's camera, or systems shortcomings in such an overtly discounting manner, which would be very easy to do IMO.

    Personally, as a systems oriented photographer, I still think Hasselblad is the leader, and has blazed a somewhat balanced path of camera, lens, back package with useful innovations like TF thrown in (and with the inclusion of the lens and color profiles in LR ... I now also include software) ... rather than pushing for dominance in one area and neglecting the other. Of course, that may change in future, but this is NOW, and we can't take pictures with speculative equipment no matter who's it is.

    -Marc

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    Workshop Member Bryan Stephens's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    I have been using both the Phase One p45+, and the Hasselblad H4D40 in "demo" mode for a few days each and these are my "findings" thus far:

    I like the viewfinder in the H4 as it is slightly brighter and easier to use, but I have previous experience with Hasselblad and am more familiar with their system as a whole. After getting away from MF for a while and concentraing on 35mm, it was a very nice relief to have such a large image in the viewfinder

    I slightly prefer the ergonomics of the camera and I do like that it operates on one battery compared to two separate power systems, but that isnt too important for me, especially because the battery for the H4 costs a good price

    Image quality: It may be just me, but in comparing the two, the images are about as equal as I can see, although I have not had enough time to play with Phocus or with Capture One enough to see how much each can enhance their own images.

    For now, one large advantage that the Phase system has is the ability to use several different backs which is a large advantage to be sure as there are more vendors available. If this current rumor about the Hasselblad is true, then I may have to hold off a little while longer before actually making my purchase.

    I wish I could just find a sugar momma so I could just get both as they are both great systems from what I can see.

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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    In regards to the original thread...I welcome an open H model, the choices will be excellent, and the need to upgrade systems might be curbed a bit. Sometimes the marketing hype tries to make some feel they absolutely need the new features. Given an open H4 system allows many to experience other DB's without having to change camera systems completely.
    Earlier in MFD quest, I had some technical issues with the "H" models, but wasn't heavily invested in H glass, so switching cameras wasn't a big deal. I heard all the sales pitches from everyone why their system was better, and even had one Phase dealer get annoyed when I wouldn't commit. The economy dictated certain expenditures, but to them it was just a sale...to me, it was an important, personal choice that my career depends on. Now that Hasselblad will consider an open platform, I'm interested because it's camera is far superior to the Phase DF. Personal feelings about brand loyalty or reliability are lessons learned from experience. I've recently viewed images taken with a Hasselblad CFV-16, by a photographer whose technique, far surpassed anything i've yet to experience with a Phase IQ. The Hasselblad announcement will allow many to mix and match, without having to completely give up one for another, it will slow the industries exploitation of planned obsolescence of digital gear, and perhaps we'll all save money!

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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Bryan - it is a general truth that people cant handle the truth. Personally I think the forum is too polite too often at the wrong time. But that is probably my rude Antipodean manner.

    It is what it has become this forum - but I would not accuse Jack of a bias not based on his honest assessment of anything - Guy is biased for sure - about everything he currently shoots. Anyone following Guys history with gear in this and other forums over time will know he pretty much falls into and out of love every six months and adapts his workflow and gear choices to what works for him - from a professional perspective - at the time.

    A lot of members though aren't professional shooters and also a lot of people reading forums like this do so in order to get information. If there is too much bias the signal to noise ratio tilts the wrong way. Generally speaking this forum is as ok as one could hope for and probably a lot better than most expect.

    Everyone has their on screen typing style and everyone has their good and bad days - these days with the world looking like it is about to go through round two of a crisis- add nervous jitters to the mix!

    However people with eyes can see great work done by all sorts of cameras on this site and in this forum. As long as that important point continues to be delivered - then the balance is ok.

    my 2 cents
    Pete
    Pete i think you have bias and enthusiasm very confused. I'm far from bias but I am a very enthusiastic about what I like in my gear. Frankly you actually know very little here the last 6 years I owned Leica R , Leica M and Phase systems and yes i have talked about them a great deal because I am enthusiastic about them and been very public, yes i like to talk. But what 99 percent of the members do not know is in the same times periods i owned 2 Nikons, 3 Sonys, 3 Canons , Panasonic and a few others and rarely talked about any of them if ever in public. Like I have said they never turned me on so why talk about them. I loved my DMR and my M8's but when it came to Phase it was always a natural progressions of backs that I owned that with each new model was better and better. P25,P30,P40, Briefly P65 and now the IQ 160 but tested the crap out of the 180 which i really liked but did not buy it for very specific reasons which where very public.

    So that bias comment is really a comment that has zero merit. Enthusiasm on the other hand for what gear I like is the reality. I am not bias as I would buy a Hassy or S2 in a NY second if I thought it would be better. I don't think either one is so if I did i would probably not even mention it just like the thousands of dollars I spent on 35mm gear that can't get my heart to beat a step faster. My preferences are my preferences and we all have them and proud to say I like my Phase backs and always have , I have never produced technically better images EVER than with these backs. Every aspect of my files is dead on the money, how the hell am i not supposed to be happy about that. So you comment well and good and respect it is DEAD WRONG.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Guy, I would call it, being passionate about photography and all things associated with helping you be a photographer/creating the image.

    Of course, your wife probably wishes you were more biased, so you'd stick with one camera system and stop emptying the family coffers...


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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    I freely admit i toss stuff out the door in a NY second if it does not do what i want. Okay guilty as hell there but seriously if this stuff don't give me a blank blank it aint worth squat to me. I've been doing this to long to put up with too many compromises. I still love the M stuff but my limits where the files size now the M9 does solve that but getting back in is not easy money wise. And it still has those limits with shooting them that I need sometimes. If i had it my way and was not shooting commercially I would have my Phase Back 4 tech lenses and a M9 setup with 3 lenses and have to say that would turn me on. I'm jealous of the folks that have that setup and can get away with it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Perhaps the bias stems from the fact that GetDPI, has workshops that are hosted in association with Capture Integration...a Phase dealer. I might be wrong, but i've not seen any advertising through any of Hasselblad sites, touting such workshops. That's okay, and to be expected, if someone teaches a workshop and chooses a particular brand, I want to know why.
    Forums should certainly have an objective tone with a modicum of respect, but if influenced by a sponsor, it might color that a bit. I have found this forum to lean towards Phase, but balanced with a good amount of useful info in other areas. Yes, I've been warned in the past by moderators to tone down my rhetoric or risk being banned, but it's only because my words are misrepresented from my tone and intention. No one is blaming you Guy, for standing by a product, you represent Phase nicely, I think it's just evolution of the forum taking shape.

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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Memories of Canon vs Nikon and Nikon vs Canon albeit far more polite and use/results orientated than the usual brand war fistfights...
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Johnny,

    I don't understand what you're saying. Is it your claim that Guy bought a Phase One back because Phase advertises on GetDPI, that he decided to go with a lesser solution because Phase pays for a display ad? How much do you think they're paying, enough for him to lug around photo equipment he'd rather not use to keep them happy?

    Jack has an Arca Swiss camera, Guy has a Cambo. Do you think they were paid to buy those brands as well? I think you should consider whether comments like your demand to know why someone chooses a particular brand and your suggestion that Guy represents a brand are insulting.

    Steve

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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Bryan - it is a general truth that people cant handle the truth. Personally I think the forum is too polite too often at the wrong time. But that is probably my rude Antipodean manner.

    It is what it has become this forum - but I would not accuse Jack of a bias not based on his honest assessment of anything - Guy is biased for sure - about everything he currently shoots. Anyone following Guys history with gear in this and other forums over time will know he pretty much falls into and out of love every six months and adapts his workflow and gear choices to what works for him - from a professional perspective - at the time.

    A lot of members though aren't professional shooters and also a lot of people reading forums like this do so in order to get information. If there is too much bias the signal to noise ratio tilts the wrong way. Generally speaking this forum is as ok as one could hope for and probably a lot better than most expect.

    Everyone has their on screen typing style and everyone has their good and bad days - these days with the world looking like it is about to go through round two of a crisis- add nervous jitters to the mix!

    However people with eyes can see great work done by all sorts of cameras on this site and in this forum. As long as that important point continues to be delivered - then the balance is ok.

    my 2 cents
    Pete
    +1
    I'm a blunt Aussie bastard too
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Perhaps the bias stems from the fact that GetDPI, has workshops that are hosted in association with Capture Integration...a Phase dealer. I might be wrong, but i've not seen any advertising through any of Hasselblad sites, touting such workshops. That's okay, and to be expected, if someone teaches a workshop and chooses a particular brand, I want to know why.
    Forums should certainly have an objective tone with a modicum of respect, but if influenced by a sponsor, it might color that a bit. I have found this forum to lean towards Phase, but balanced with a good amount of useful info in other areas. Yes, I've been warned in the past by moderators to tone down my rhetoric or risk being banned, but it's only because my words are misrepresented from my tone and intention. No one is blaming you Guy, for standing by a product, you represent Phase nicely, I think it's just evolution of the forum taking shape.

    Are you freaking kidding me. We asked Hassy 3 times to advertise here. BTW I chose Phase a long time ago before ANYONE actually supported our workshops. Our support comes in the way of providing gear and that is IT. Leica used to be part of our workshops as well and it was just gear. I REPRESENT NO ONE lets make that perfectly ****ing clear. NO ONE pays me a red nickel on anything. People advertise on our site because they want too. Hell I own cambo do they adverstise , I wish they did. Not sure what cloak and dagger stuff you think is even remotely going on but you are so wrong its laughable. But you go ahead and think what you want. I'll start looking for the million dollars put in my bank account from OEMS at the same time.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    BTW Phase One does NOT advertise on our site.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    It would be great if there were two new ISO standards.
    1: Back to camera
    2: Lens to camera

    Since there are not the manufacturers exploit that fact strategically as they see fit; mostly to hold on to customers as tight as they can and to "grow a base" into which new lenses and accessories could be sold.

    As for the original post, I welcome the potential but there are too few details as yet to make any value judgement as yet.

    -bob

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Perhaps the bias stems from the fact that GetDPI, has workshops that are hosted in association with Capture Integration...a Phase dealer. I might be wrong, but i've not seen any advertising through any of Hasselblad sites, touting such workshops. That's okay, and to be expected, if someone teaches a workshop and chooses a particular brand, I want to know why.
    Forums should certainly have an objective tone with a modicum of respect, but if influenced by a sponsor, it might color that a bit. I have found this forum to lean towards Phase, but balanced with a good amount of useful info in other areas. Yes, I've been warned in the past by moderators to tone down my rhetoric or risk being banned, but it's only because my words are misrepresented from my tone and intention. No one is blaming you Guy, for standing by a product, you represent Phase nicely, I think it's just evolution of the forum taking shape.
    For the record, we've asked Hasselblad, Sinar and Leica to come to and/or send demo MF gear to our workshops for our members to try. We are all about helping folks find what works best FOR THEM.

    But for whatever reason, neither Hassy nor Sinar has ever even replied to any of my several requests -- very poor PR and very poor manners IMHO. Leica has at least replied and politely and supportively, but except for one S2 kit on one workshop, always that they have no MF gear available to loan us! They have usually sent or been willing to send a limited selection of M gear and any of their P&S cams.

    So I'll agree that in that light our workshops are biased, but only because Capture Integration is currently the only player willing to regularly support and maintain a solid presence at them. And FTR relatively small companies like both Cambo and Arca have supported us directly (or indirectly though dealers) with demo gear, and frankly why Guy and I ended up buy those solutions for tech instead of others; we got to demo them! Phase was all in favor and agreed to support us initially and we had that ball in motion, but then decided to launch their own PODAS series of workshops at the last minute, which of course works better for them -- and of course both Guy and I are PODAS instructors there as well...

    So, all of you who are screaming "biased" at us, I encourage YOU to lean on YOUR favorite manufacturer and supplier to get us YOUR favorite gear to us to share on our workshops -- IMHO that would be WAYYYY more productive than screaming bias at us! The reality is it is YOUR preferred manufacturers and suppliers that are biased, not us...

    /rant
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    I am very biased.
    I think all of the systems have issues.
    -bob

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    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Perhaps there are manufacturers who would rather not be associated with threads such as this?

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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Yup great move as i said all through this thread.

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31370
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post

    ".... but I would not accuse Jack of a bias not based on his honest assessment of anything - Guy is biased for sure - about everything he currently shoots. Anyone following Guys history with gear in this and other forums over time will know he pretty much falls into and out of love every six months and adapts his workflow and gear choices to what works for him - from a professional perspective - at the time......

    ....However people with eyes can see great work done by all sorts of cameras on this site and in this forum. As long as that important point continues to be delivered - then the balance is ok. "
    Guy I apologise if you interpreted the word bias in the context I wrote as a criticism - as it was certainly not meant to be a criticism at all. Yes I agree enthusiastic is maybe more appropropriate - but personally I dont have a problem with people having biases - as long as they clearly explain why - in fact an enthusiastic bias based on relevant facts is a good thing for people to express IMHO

    I would go so far as to say that your gear choice given you use it to make a living is a very interesting story for people to read - and that is what I was referring to in regards to you can and will change your mind according to your needs at any point in time - again I see no problem with this at all - why would I?

    So chill mate

    As for the forum 'bias' regarding a predominat brand - I think Marc pretty much summed up the situation - there are other places for other types of backs and systems - for particular information. I think people are lucky to have Marc posting on Hasselblad and other equipment as appropriate - because he is extremely generous with his time and thoughts especially coming from a working perspective in many cases.

    However there are a bunch of people (perhaps like me) who really dont care about anything except the fun factor and the results factor from a hobbyists and enthusiast's point of view.

    I think we all agree that a great print has very little to do with the gear (as in really) - some might say DOH at this - IF that is what a person wishes to accomplish. However having nice equipment often encourages one to actually go to the trouble of getting out there and doing it.

    So (again) I apologise Guy if you thought I was having a go at you - quite the contrary.

    Pete

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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    No worries mate. I am totally cool for sure. No question i am one crazy hombre and do strange things on the surface with gear and honestly I love pushing this stuff where it is not supposed to go and bash those ideas you can do that with that well watch me soar at it. LOL
    I just love challenges in photography it keeps old dogs like me fresh. Now if i could just get my legs and back to move that would be nice. ROTFLMAO

    I do agree GetDPI is popular with the Phase/Leaf folks but seriously I hope this announcement with Hassy starts getting people over here more. We are so small a marketing segment of this industry we all need to stick together and grow it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  22. #72
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Wow! Everyone has their undies in a bunch! I was not in any way trying to be insulting, I was only commenting on the bias comments from others, and why some feel Guy/GetDPI might lean a particular way. I never mentioned Phase advertising on GetDPI, I mentioned that Capture Integration has ads for the GetDPI workshop...that's it! It's very personal at these prices, why do you think i'm so passionate? Guy, Jack, once again, my tone and intent is lost in printed words, and if you knew me, you would not be offended.

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    For the record, we've asked Hasselblad, Sinar and Leica to come to and/or send demo MF gear to our workshops for our members to try. We are all about helping folks find what works best FOR THEM.

    But for whatever reason, neither Hassy nor Sinar has ever even replied to any of my several requests -- very poor PR and very poor manners IMHO. Leica has at least replied and politely and supportively, but except for one S2 kit on one workshop, always that they have no MF gear available to loan us! They have usually sent or been willing to send a limited selection of M gear and any of their P&S cams.

    So I'll agree that in that light our workshops are biased, but only because Capture Integration is currently the only player willing to regularly support and maintain a solid presence at them. And FTR relatively small companies like both Cambo and Arca have supported us directly (or indirectly though dealers) with demo gear, and frankly why Guy and I ended up buy those solutions for tech instead of others; we got to demo them! Phase was all in favor and agreed to support us initially and we had that ball in motion, but then decided to launch their own PODAS series of workshops at the last minute, which of course works better for them -- and of course both Guy and I are PODAS instructors there as well...

    So, all of you who are screaming "biased" at us, I encourage YOU to lean on YOUR favorite manufacturer and supplier to get us YOUR favorite gear to us to share on our workshops -- IMHO that would be WAYYYY more productive than screaming bias at us! The reality is it is YOUR preferred manufacturers and suppliers that are biased, not us...

    /rant
    Jack,

    Thanks for shedding light on that. I have only seen the CI site, and so it makes sense. What's curious, is why other camera makers would not want their products to be demoed in these workshops. Using someone else's camera to it's limitations would make a great impression on a photographer. Now that Hasselblad is opening the platform, i'm sure you can expect a variety of gear to be displayed at your next WS. Thanks again for the professionalism.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    We have several ads up there and one from another great dealer Digital Transitions that also sells Phase , 2 that sell Leica , one that sell Hassy if you look at Camera west plus a bunch of others . They want your business so they advertise just like any other forum. Hell i would love to load that up with 12 more. maybe i could buy a lens. ROTFLMAO

    They only way I lean is if someone pushes my *** over which trust me is not easy to do. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    What's curious, is why other camera makers would not want their products to be demoed in these workshops. Using someone else's camera to it's limitations would make a great impression on a photographer.
    Yes it is curious, and frankly makes very little sense to me.

    Now that Hasselblad is opening the platform, i'm sure you can expect a variety of gear to be displayed at your next WS.
    While I respect your optimism and hope you are correct, I would not count on it. My guess is if we get any Hassy at a workshop, it will because a Hassy dealer has supplied it, not Hassy the company. Moreover, I'm done asking them -- if Hassy wants their gear at our workshops, they know how to get hold of me -- and of course it would be welcomed.

    And glad my explanation helped
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  26. #76
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I should make it clear that I do NOT think any bias is a particularly negative one here on Get Dpi, and said so a couple of times on this thread. This is my favorite forum for its general tone and sharing of information across a wide spectrum of photographic subjects. However, IF I disagree with any given statement I'll pipe up and challenge it. Sometimes it is incorrect information (even from Phase reps) or incomplete information, and sometimes it is assumptions that I do not agree with.

    If Hasselblad chooses to not participate in forum reviews in general and Get Dpi specifically, that's their decision. There are two informative forums that specifically provide a direct conduit to other experienced H users to answer technical questions or whatever ... plus, Hasselblad has their own system of demonstrations and specific method of getting questions answered as well as the Hasselblad Owners Club on their website. So, frankly, Get Dpi isn't where I would go for Hasselblad specific technical questions. In fact, I've definitely answered more questions regarding Hasselblad than I have ever asked here. BTW, this has playing out in a similar manner with the Leica S2, where the Red Dot forum is a rich source for technical, service and technique questions.

    This absence could well account for the bias toward Phase One, because there IS a lot of experienced users here, as well as company representation. THAT however doesn't make Phase One systems superior in any way, and I'll challenge such stated assumptions when I feel it is appropriate.

    I do not agree with Steve's statement that Phase One has ALWAYS been ahead in the back end ... that heavily depends on a photographer's applications, and to my way of thinking "AlWAYS" can never be a blanket statement from any maker. That is the difference of a photographer's perspective verses a marketer's perspective. As a Photographer with fairly well defined objectives, I found the H3D-II/39 just as good as the Phase offering in terms of IQ, with a better LCD, one button start up, and control ergonomics, and at the time, the Hasselblad Multi-Shot cameras were the top dog for studio based or institutional IQ ... which then led to a H3D-II/50 with the Kodak sensor that some prefer over Dalsa, and Phase never had ... then to the H3D-II/50 Multi-shot. Again, it heavily depends on applicational bias and phtographic intent. Now the excellent IQs have the lead if you need or want that sort of functionality ... which I personally do not but other's may and are excited about it.

    I may be wrong, but do not recall any official Hasselblad representative ever directly addressing Phase One's camera, or systems shortcomings in such an overtly discounting manner, which would be very easy to do IMO.

    Personally, as a systems oriented photographer, I still think Hasselblad is the leader, and has blazed a somewhat balanced path of camera, lens, back package with useful innovations like TF thrown in (and with the inclusion of the lens and color profiles in LR ... I now also include software) ... rather than pushing for dominance in one area and neglecting the other. Of course, that may change in future, but this is NOW, and we can't take pictures with speculative equipment no matter who's it is.

    -Marc

    Marc, I gotta say for one who is presenting the argument of "there is no leader or best", you sure do try to make the case for Hasselblad in your post.

    You know, I simply made one little statement that IMO Phase One has always been ahead of Hasselblad in the digital back end part of the equation. It has been fairly accepted that Hasselblad has been the leader on the front end (though I could make the same application-driven arguments that you do in favor of other camera systems). But as soon as someone makes the same claim about Phase One and the back end, people go off in a tizzy. Seems....biased.

    And btw, I've always been an application-driven prescriber. While I may feel one product or company has a leadership position, that is quite a different matter than what solution becomes the most appropriate fit for any client of mine. At that point, the leadership position doesn't really matter. What matters is the unique feature set and capability of the product that allows the photographer to do what they want to do in the most effective manner. And that is not a simple equation, as you know and have described.

    If Hasselblad was not behind Phase One on the back end, then their own digital back sales for H1/H2 cameras did a poor job of getting the word out considering the low sales numbers compared to Phase One or Leaf digital backs on the same H1/H2 cameras.

    I think we are arguing a bit over semantics - at least I hope so. When I say "ahead", I think that is evident. Phase One has always released sensors years ahead of Hasselblad, 22MP, 31MP, 39MP, 60MP, 80MP. What am I missing here? Well, the 50MP, as you point out, though I'm glad Phase One passed on a sensor that was 11MP more but the same size as the P45+, and instead jumped straight to 60MP and a larger sensor. They produced a Compact Flash capable digital back while Hasselblad (Imacon) produced a product that had to use a $2,000 external hard drive for portability and was even necessary when shooting tethered. If you asked anyone back then if they considered shooting to a $2,000 external hard drive ahead of shooting to Compact Flash Cards, the answer would be overwhelmingly no.

    From a reliability standpoint, there is no digital back more reliable than Phase One IMO. This doesn't mean a Hasselblad digital back is unreliable, we're talking about a matter of degrees. But if you had to pick a winner, sorry, Phase One, IME. With the Plus backs, Phase One introduced 30 - 60 minute exposures while the rest of the medium format industry offered 30 seconds. And not just for one or two models, every model in the lineup, every megapixel offering, covering 5 different models. Phase One also patented Sensor Plus, which allows for a 2 stop increase in sensitivity and faster captures, while reducing file size to 1/4 the full resolution. Again, this technology is available with 5 different digital back models.

    Of course, the IQ backs take things even further, with more unequalled firsts - highest resolution LCD screen by far. The fastest, most flexible and innovative digital back interface. FW400/800/USB2/USB3 output. Automatic perspective correction, focus mask, live view, all in the digital back. All this is further enhanced by Capture One, which has always been and continues to be well in advance of Flexcolor/Phocus software. I don't mean to sound like a Phase One commercial, but you aired the Hasselblad version, and I needed to make my point as well.

    Hasselblad makes a fine digital back end, and there's lots of reasons one might choose a Hasselblad even just for the digital back end. There's nothing wrong with not being the leader! It does not mean there is not a reason to consider your product. I would not say the Phase One DF is the camera leader, yet people choose it every day for specific reasons. No different.

    You're welcome to your opinion Marc, I'll continue with mine, which is Phase One has always been ahead on the back end and I see nothing that indicates that changing. Hasselblad has been ahead with the camera - ok if I say that? - and as much as I like what Phase One has done on the camera/lens side, until we see and evaluate the new camera product, I'm not convinced they'll surpass Hasselblad here. Does this sound biased?

    One last thing, yes, you would be wrong when you say that Hasselblad representatives have never directly addressed Phase One's shortcomings. And I've never had a problem with that.

    Marc, one of these days we're going to find something we can agree on. Well, I will say that your contributions here hold great value for the membership. I hope we can agree on that! (because it is a fact, not just my opinion). We all have beliefs, thoughts, and opinions here. That's just the point of the place I think.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
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  27. #77
    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Steve, just a slight correction, for the record:

    Concerning the 22 MPx sensor, it was clearly Sinar, ahead of all other companies since it got exclusivity from Kodak for this sensor for a period of 1 year.
    It was in Sep 2002, and if I'm not mistaken Hasselblad did not yet have a back division and was just to take over Imacon.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Phase One has always released sensors years ahead of Hasselblad, 22MP, .....
    Thierry Hagenauer
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Sinar also had a 22MP 1-4-16 frame multi-shot (the 54 something?) that was state of the art in digital capture at the time, 2002 IIRC. Then it was a while before anybody really competed, and IIRC it was Hassy/Imacon next with their own 22MP MS back about 2 years later.
    Jack
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  29. #79
    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Correct Jack, it was the SB 54 H, multi-shot up to 88 MPx resolution in 16-shot mode. It is still in use in many studios and the files can still compete with any current single-shot digital back.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Sinar also had a 22MP 1-4-16 frame multi-shot (the 54 something?) that was state of the art in digital capture at the time, 2002 IIRC. Then it was a while before anybody really competed, and IIRC it was Hassy/Imacon next with their own 22MP MS back about 2 years later.
    Thierry Hagenauer
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Marc, I gotta say for one who is presenting the argument of "there is no leader or best", you sure do try to make the case for Hasselblad in your post.


    Steve Hendrix
    IMO, this demonstrates that you just don't get it. All the rest of your post is tit-for-tat and we go on forever. Frankly, I don't care at all who is sales leader in anything. That has never once been my criteria for selecting anything.

    The argument is FOR ME and my applications and what works FOR ME. There is no "universal best" as you keep wanting to hard sell. There is what is best for each shooter. That may be like Shelby with his RZ and Leaf back which is still a "magic" combo for producing his style of work. I still am of the opinion that the Hasselblad CFV/16 and 203FE combination produced images that I rarely see aesthetically equalled by mega $$$ backs from all the makers. Which is why I did not continue on to the CFV/39 or 50 because it didn't translate the same. It is an artistic evaluation not some quantifiable chart.

    I think the whole arena has become the "Emperors New Clothes" where a minuscule few need anything near what is now being made, but to keep the juggernaut moving it must be marketed to the many.


    Frankly, I'm not married to any of this stuff ... including Hasselblad. Had I been entering the arena of MFD today, given where the market for photography has gone, the last system I'd buy into is Phase One, and most likely not Hasselblad either. I should have stopped with the RZ and 33 meg Leaf 75s that one of my favorite photographers now owns ... and who would have guessed that Leica would produce a ground-up camera that makes them all seem like dinosaurs roaring about how dominate they are ... until they suddenly aren't around anymore

    -Marc

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Lemma 1:
    If a company does not produce a good product from time to time it will surely fail.

    Corollary to Lemma 1: No company has the "best" product IN THE MARKET at all times from all perspectives.

    -bob

  32. #82
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Bob,

    Wasn't that a Moore quote?

    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

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  33. #83
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Bob,

    Wasn't that a Moore quote?

    It should have been but it is not.
    -bob

  34. #84
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    IMO, this demonstrates that you just don't get it. All the rest of your post is tit-for-tat and we go on forever. Frankly, I don't care at all who is sales leader in anything. That has never once been my criteria for selecting anything.

    The argument is FOR ME and my applications and what works FOR ME. There is no "universal best" as you keep wanting to hard sell. There is what is best for each shooter. That may be like Shelby with his RZ and Leaf back which is still a "magic" combo for producing his style of work. I still am of the opinion that the Hasselblad CFV/16 and 203FE combination produced images that I rarely see aesthetically equalled by mega $$$ backs from all the makers. Which is why I did not continue on to the CFV/39 or 50 because it didn't translate the same. It is an artistic evaluation not some quantifiable chart.

    I think the whole arena has become the "Emperors New Clothes" where a minuscule few need anything near what is now being made, but to keep the juggernaut moving it must be marketed to the many.


    Frankly, I'm not married to any of this stuff ... including Hasselblad. Had I been entering the arena of MFD today, given where the market for photography has gone, the last system I'd buy into is Phase One, and most likely not Hasselblad either. I should have stopped with the RZ and 33 meg Leaf 75s that one of my favorite photographers now owns ... and who would have guessed that Leica would produce a ground-up camera that makes them all seem like dinosaurs roaring about how dominate they are ... until they suddenly aren't around anymore

    -Marc

    Marc -

    I think we're abusing the thread at this point and it's becoming more about you and me. I say that because for whatever reason you have scorpions in your pants about my statement that Phase has always been ahead of Hasselblad on the digital back end and would likely continue, while Hasselblad has been ahead on the camera side. But you continue to mischaracterize my words into some sort of ridiculous mandate for THE BEST. You started the laundry list of tit for tat ("Phase never had a 50MP", you said). In every industry, there is a market leader, and I said when it came to the back end, Phase One has always been ahead of Hasselblad. You say no, but even on the completely elementary level of they have always had new sensors to market ahead of Hassleblad, you probably can't abide my statement, so ok - forget I said it - I withdraw the statement! The fact of whether it is true or not doesn't matter. Can we agree that it doesn't matter? Because as far as what I recommend to a client is concerned, it doesn't.

    Today I spent 8 hours in the (hot) sun shooting P45+, P65+, IQ180, and Arca Swiss RM3Di and a client. Throughout the day the discussion surrounded the differences, advantages and disadvantages for how this client shoots with the digital backs and also the RM3Di discussed in context of the Cambo WRS. Nothing was "best". So, please, stop making such a flipping big deal out of my little remark. I am hard selling "best"? Your innuendos about me create the impression you have no idea who I am. There are many people here who know who I am. Please stop twisting my words. I actually just went back to my original post and all I said was I didn't see Hassleblad catching Phase One on the back end. Just my opinion.

    Thierry - your correction is appreciated, but it is not a correction, since I only stated that Phase One has always been to market with new sensors before Imacon/Hasselblad. I was actually employed by Sinar at the time Sinar had a short time exclusive on the Kodak 22MP sensor. Initially, Phase One's response was that they would match it with a 22MP Dalsa version, but between then and the release date, that changed and it wound up Kodak. Yes, Sinar was first.

    Also, before I joined Sinar, I was employed by Imacon, and Imacon had purchased ColorCrisp I think a year or two before the Sinar 22MP was announced, so yes, there was a digital back division that offered 6MP ad 11MP multishot products (the old Carnival backs).


    Steve Hendrix
    Last edited by Steve Hendrix; 25th October 2011 at 17:10.
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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  35. #85
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Steve and Marc,

    Might I suggest you two take this offline and work it out?

    Thanks in advance,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  36. #86
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Steve and Marc,

    Might I suggest you two take this offline and work it out?

    Thanks in advance,

    I'm sorry.

    That's an excellent suggestion Jack.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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  37. #87
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Lemma 1:
    If a company does not produce a good product from time to time it will surely fail.

    Corollary to Lemma 1: No company has the "best" product IN THE MARKET at all times from all perspectives.

    -bob

    True. Regardless, there is often a "generally acknowledged" market leader. This is reflected sometimes in sales numbers, and sometimes product benefits, and sometimes a combination of the two. This does not mean the product is the best or even seen as the best by all, and by all for all purposes for which the product is designed. The Hasselblad H camera has held this general position since its introduction.

    We still sell a significant portion of digital backs made for Contax 645 cameras. Phase One DF cameras are not generally acknowledged as the market leader. And yet, they have sold a great number of these systems. Consumers never completely discount all other products even in the environment where there is a perceived market leader. Some element of those non-market leaders will answer some need or desire that the perceived market leader does not.

    Even the Yugo produced decent sales numbers until it became apparent you'd quickly end up upside down (both figuratively and literally) from repairs/reliability issues.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Marc -

    I think we're abusing the thread at this point and it's becoming more about you and me. I say that because for whatever reason you have scorpions in your pants about my statement that Phase has always been ahead of Hasselblad on the digital back end and would likely continue, while Hasselblad has been ahead on the camera side. But you continue to mischaracterize my words into some sort of ridiculous mandate for THE BEST. You started the laundry list of tit for tat ("Phase never had a 50MP", you said). In every industry, there is a market leader, and I said when it came to the back end, Phase One has always been ahead of Hasselblad. You say no, but even on the completely elementary level of they have always had new sensors to market ahead of Hassleblad, you probably can't abide my statement, so ok - forget I said it - I withdraw the statement! The fact of whether it is true or not doesn't matter. Can we agree that it doesn't matter? Because as far as what I recommend to a client is concerned, it doesn't.

    Today I spent 8 hours in the (hot) sun shooting P45+, P65+, IQ180, and Arca Swiss RM3Di and a client. Throughout the day the discussion surrounded the differences, advantages and disadvantages for how this client shoots with the digital backs and also the RM3Di discussed in context of the Cambo WRS. Nothing was "best". So, please, stop making such a flipping big deal out of my little remark. I am hard selling "best"? Your innuendos about me create the impression you have no idea who I am. There are many people here who know who I am. Please stop twisting my words. I actually just went back to my original post and all I said was I didn't see Hassleblad catching Phase One on the back end. Just my opinion.

    Thierry - your correction is appreciated, but it is not a correction, since I only stated that Phase One has always been to market with new sensors before Imacon/Hasselblad. I was actually employed by Sinar at the time Sinar had a short time exclusive on the Kodak 22MP sensor. Initially, Phase One's response was that they would match it with a 22MP Dalsa version, but between then and the release date, that changed and it wound up Kodak. Yes, Sinar was first.

    Also, before I joined Sinar, I was employed by Imacon, and Imacon had purchased ColorCrisp I think a year or two before the Sinar 22MP was announced, so yes, there was a digital back division that offered 6MP ad 11MP multishot products (the old Carnival backs).


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve, it isn't about you and me, except in your own competitive head. You really should open up to other perspectives whether you like them or not. And to be clear, I do not care if you like me or what I have to say ... but it is a different perspective that I know I am not alone in feeling.

    Instead you on keep trying to prove your point with statistics, history lessons and sales speak.

    Let me take Hasselblad out of the equation ... NO MAKER is the leader to everyone, not Hasselblad, Phase One or anyone. The dominate force in photography is the photographer, not the maker of tools for the photographer. We would make photos whether Phase, Hassey or any of the current crew was around or not. I'm sure we are all glad they are, but it is just a bunch of different tools that depend on the hands they are in.

    IMO, all of this has created a cult of gear that has put the horse before the cart, and while some of it is good, to much is ... well, just to much.

    As to the original message, this was about Hasselblad offering up a new open-platform camera, which was turned into a pitch for Phase One always being ahead of everyone else on the back-end. Not every post has to be a Phase One opportunity to push the cool aid you know.

    -Marc

  39. #89
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    "Might I suggest you two take this offline and work it out?"

    Maybe more than a suggestion is required. Or at least a time limit: all other sporting events have an end.

  40. #90
    Senior Member PSon's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by TH_Alpa View Post
    Correct Jack, it was the SB 54 H, multi-shot up to 88 MPx resolution in 16-shot mode. It is still in use in many studios and the files can still compete with any current single-shot digital back.

    Thierry
    I still own two of the Sinar 54H to this day and it is still one of my favorite digital back of all time. In fact, I visited another studio who was using the newer version of the Sinar multishot back and was having problem with the color casting. Keep in mind that the 54H was the last Kodak chip that Sinar used on their back. In fact, my first 54H came from Steve Hendrix. I have to say in my lifetime experience with photography, I have learned from many of you here and elsewhere. It is with great pain for me to see many of you disagree over trivial matters. Many of us struggle in these time, and this forum has provided many great benefits to the members and viewers. Whether I agree with all the principles of this forum or not, I find this forum to be a favorite place to hang out due to its uniqueness in diversity from regular members to dealers. I like to thanks all of you for providing many great valuable informations to many folks including myself. I like to view all of you as positive contributors not only here but in many other places before GetDPI was developed. To name a few of you: Guy, Jack, Marc, Steve Gilbert, Steve Hendrix, PeterA, Doug, Yair, Thierry, Paul Slotboom, David and so many others.

    Thanks
    Son
    Last edited by PSon; 25th October 2011 at 18:34.

  41. #91
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Thanks Son
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    all other sporting events have an end.
    I thought that American football went on forever.
    Cheers,
    Jeff
    www.jeff-grant.com

  43. #93
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    "I thought that American football went on forever."

    As opposed to soccer, which only seems to go on forever? (There is a 60 minute time limit to football, but they keep stopping the clock. That allows more TV commercials.)

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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Now I understand, but they are both more interesting than the current slugfest..
    Cheers,
    Jeff
    www.jeff-grant.com

  45. #95
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffg53 View Post
    Now I understand, but they are both more interesting than the current slugfest..
    EVEN test cricket is more interesting than a slugfest - and that's saying something coming from an Englishman who despises cricket even more than soccer - sorry - my English DNA must be broken.

    If the Hassy announcement causes some reaction at Phase One then it has to be a good thing. Viva the competition!
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  46. #96
    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    In the interest of lightening the mood (and making a jolly good point too), here is a rather relevant point made very cogently:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sD_8prYOxo


  47. #97
    Super Duper
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "Might I suggest you two take this offline and work it out?"

    Maybe more than a suggestion is required. Or at least a time limit: all other sporting events have an end.
    Done.

    -Marc

  48. #98
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Steve and Marc,

    Might I suggest you two take this offline and work it out?

    Thanks in advance,
    Done.

  49. #99
    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    Yes, correct Steve, my appologies!

    Best
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Marc -

    Thierry - your correction is appreciated, but it is not a correction, since I only stated that Phase One has always been to market with new sensors before Imacon/Hasselblad. I was actually employed by Sinar at the time Sinar had a short time exclusive on the Kodak 22MP sensor. Initially, Phase One's response was that they would match it with a 22MP Dalsa version, but between then and the release date, that changed and it wound up Kodak. Yes, Sinar was first.

    Steve Hendrix
    Thierry Hagenauer
    [email protected]

  50. #100
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    Re: Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

    thanks for the slugfest:::: this really motivates me to turn off my computer and go make photos

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