Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

[fotografz]

If I read Guy correctly, something is up ... maybe not exactly the rumor I first posted, but something. :toocool:

There is another angle to this we haven't considered. If the H platform is opened back up, it may be that Hasselblad owners will now have the option of a second back-up body without all the complex aspects and additional expense it currently requires?

Also, it may be that an owner of a H3D/H3D-II 31, 39 or 50 will be able to upgrade their body ... which frankly is the way it should have been all along. I'm hoping this is true because IF there is a H5 in the works I DO NOT want to pay for a new digital back just to get the new body.

If the above is true, and IF the features are reasonably retained (which I personally can't get my head around given the Hasselblad "integrated" propaganda of the past few years), then Hasselblad will not be able to make enough H4Ds.

The other aspect for Hasselbald owners is the prospect of using a specialized back on their existing H camera ... for example a P45 which still is the reigning champ of long exposures, or the panoramic Leaf back. Interesting prospects.

As to rentals, it depends on who we are talking about, and what you currently tend to use, that colors the perspectives being voiced here. As a Hasselblad owner, I know there are hundreds and hundreds of rental locations where I can get an integrated H system kit if needed ... including Hollywood, New York and Chicago. Hasselblad lists their world-wide rental partners on their website, and they are virtually everywhere. BTW, a quick audit shows that it is less expensive to rent a H4D/40 verses a H1/2 with a 40 meg Phase One kit ... and you can use the HCD 35-90 and 28 on the H4D which you cannot with the H1/2.

This is a bit of a closed world here and the assumption that the new Phase One backs fit ALL people's needs and personal tastes better than a Hasselblad digital back, therefore the Phase One is universally superior, is flawed logic and biased propaganda. There are many who have the opposite opinion who do not post here, and are just as biased and vocal as Phamaya members of this forum.

Anyway, what will be, will be ... we'll just have to wait and see.

At least it isn't boring ...

-Marc

 

[Dustbak]

What I have always understood was that the money was being made primarily on the backs, much less so on the bodies.

I assume that now backs are more mainstream than before the division on what you can make on a back vs what you can make on a body pluss glass is a bit more friendly towards the body and glass.

As a HB user I would applaud opening up the system again. It would make me feel more comfortable continueing using HB equipment knowing I have the flexibility of choice. I couldn't care less about what I am using, I just happen to use HB and I am well taken care of. Feeling comfortable with what I use is key to me. When they open up the system to me it feels like the system I currently use just has become somewhat more versatile.

I think HB is doing good work at the moment. The ability to use ACR with the Raw files to name one of the other things.

 

[jecxz]

This is a bit of a closed world here and the assumption that the new Phase One backs fit ALL people's needs and personal tastes better than a Hasselblad digital back, therefore the Phase One is universally superior, is flawed logic and biased propaganda. There are many who have the opposite opinion who do not post here, and are just as biased and vocal as Phamaya members of this forum.

+1

However it should be noted that this forum is far better than another, where the vitriol emanates from the top down.

Kind regards,
Derek

 

[goesbang]

This thread seems to imply that the rental studios are the biggest market for the MF manufacturers. I do wonder about this on a global scale. In the markets I work in regularly (Australia, Indonesia, India, Malaysia, Oman, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Hong Kong and Singapore), my observation is that most of the pros who shoot MF own their own kit, be it Blad or Phase. Sure, there are rentals available but how significant is it? Just makes me wonder...

 

[goesbang]

+1

However it should be noted that this forum is far better than another, where the vitriol emanates from the top down.


+1 !!!

 

[hcubell]

The Photo Plus Expo opens in NYC next week and the rumor is that Phase One will preview on some basis what will be forthcoming in a new Phase camera body (or bodies). Hasselblad is presumably focused on figuring out how to meet that competitive challenge, so opening up the H4D would be one way. Another way would be a completely new open platform camera from Hasselblad. That would be wonderful for medium format digital. Two new high end platforms that take all backs. Probably too good to be true.

 

[jlm]

I'd like to find out asap as i am trading in my H39 back for the IQ160 to use primarily with the cambo, h-mount. did it this way so I can continue to use my H body, as I was going to trade my H-39 body and prism for the H2 body and prism.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

My bluntness is definitely one of my negative attributes, and maybe the printed version of my remarks could not express my tone and did seem rude. Sorry. That was not my intention. However, a lot of people do come to me if they want the straight unvarnished truth. But your statement about the professional world being ruled by Hassy bodies sporting Phase backs deserves at least some kind of actual data to support the claim. Every one has an opinion, and I respect yours (as an opinion) if you are in the industry. However, at times, one finds himself in sort of a bubble in terms of knowing what is happening outside their sphere of influence. In certain parts of the US Phase may dominate and other parts maybe another manufacturer. That also goes for certain parts of the world. My concern was only that a statement like yours deserves some kind of factual numbers to support it, or at the very least your position in the industry that gives you privy to such information.

I also apologize to the moderators if they feel my post was rude. In the future I will try to be more aware of the politeness of my responses.

Again, sorry.

Greg

As someone who has a lot of experience in different spheres, I would say - at least in the USA - that certainly in the rental market Phase One digital backs on H2 cameras, followed by Leaf digital backs on H2 cameras are the dominant platform. You'll never find any "facts" about this. So your data points come from having enough of a collection of that data from those who would know (and who would be honest in providing their experience).

It is difficult to get a read on overall product reliability from individual users unless a product very obviously has issues that are below standard guidelines for reliability. Rental houses have a unique perspective in that they typically carry a volume of a single product, and the product gets enough use that issues will take on a pattern that is identifiable as indicative of that product's reliability. We're not a "rental house", but we do rent digital backs and cameras and also have relationships with various rental houses that augment their rental business from our inventory as well. So we do have a high sample rate and a perspective on reliability with various camera systems and digital backs.

That said, assessing reliability from the perspective of a rental house is not conclusive. When equipment is not owned, it is typically not cared for as well by the user. The equipment may also have reliability limitations when used in a certain way or in certain environments.

I think the more pertinent element of the H camera system is that repairs costs, when they occur, are substantial. Given that Phase One DF cameras and lenses have not yet gained overwhelming acceptance in rental house, it is hard to say whether their track record will be as good or worse than H systems. Regardless of the rate of repairs, when repair costs are reasonable, and turn around times are fast, the sting of repairs is diminished, and perhaps the perspective towards the reliability of the product is affected as well.

Steve Hendrix

 

[Steve Hendrix]

If I read Guy correctly, something is up ... maybe not exactly the rumor I first posted, but something. :toocool:

There is another angle to this we haven't considered. If the H platform is opened back up, it may be that Hasselblad owners will now have the option of a second back-up body without all the complex aspects and additional expense it currently requires?

Also, it may be that an owner of a H3D/H3D-II 31, 39 or 50 will be able to upgrade their body ... which frankly is the way it should have been all along. I'm hoping this is true because IF there is a H5 in the works I DO NOT want to pay for a new digital back just to get the new body.

If the above is true, and IF the features are reasonably retained (which I personally can't get my head around given the Hasselblad "integrated" propaganda of the past few years), then Hasselblad will not be able to make enough H4Ds.

The other aspect for Hasselbald owners is the prospect of using a specialized back on their existing H camera ... for example a P45 which still is the reigning champ of long exposures, or the panoramic Leaf back. Interesting prospects.

As to rentals, it depends on who we are talking about, and what you currently tend to use, that colors the perspectives being voiced here. As a Hasselblad owner, I know there are hundreds and hundreds of rental locations where I can get an integrated H system kit if needed ... including Hollywood, New York and Chicago. Hasselblad lists their world-wide rental partners on their website, and they are virtually everywhere. BTW, a quick audit shows that it is less expensive to rent a H4D/40 verses a H1/2 with a 40 meg Phase One kit ... and you can use the HCD 35-90 and 28 on the H4D which you cannot with the H1/2.

This is a bit of a closed world here and the assumption that the new Phase One backs fit ALL people's needs and personal tastes better than a Hasselblad digital back, therefore the Phase One is universally superior, is flawed logic and biased propaganda. There are many who have the opposite opinion who do not post here, and are just as biased and vocal as Phamaya members of this forum.

Anyway, what will be, will be ... we'll just have to wait and see.

At least it isn't boring ...

-Marc

Gosh I hate/love (or love/hate?) speculation. But I had heard whispers of this quite some time ago. It seems like this is coming to fruition as those whisperings have hardened and perhaps there will be an announcement next week.

The questions it raises are interesting -

Marc - backup bodies for H3D/H4D users, does that become easier simpler, less expensive? Good question.

My questions would impact your question.

To me, it only makes sense to open the platform up if you open up all the features also. Meaning DAC, True Focus, etc. If a Phase One or Leaf digital back user has access to an H4 body, but the only advantage oner an H2 body is that it is a current product, not discontinued, then I don't see much of a story here for those users. But if a Phase One or Leaf user can also now use the 28mmHCD and 35mm-90mm HCD lenses, as well as have DAC and True Focus capability, then I can see some Phase/Leaf users sticking with their H platform, and going forward other Phase/Leaf users having a real viable choice of whether they want to use the H platform or the Phase/Mamiya platform. And they can more realistically base that choice on the merits of the camera system, rather than whether one camera maker is more committed to the digital back platform than another.

From that standpoint, even if the camera systems going forward are on a roughly equivalent footing, I can also see that Hasselblad has burned a lot of trust and that regardless of how committed they might say they are to supporting Phase One/Leaf owners, many of those users may wind up opting for the new Phase One camera system just because of a comfort zone of knowing they're riding with the horse that brought them.

All speculation for now, of course.

But if this were true, to me, what it confirms to me for Hasselblad is that they don't really have a choice. I don't believe Hassleblad - on the path they charted - would ever match the digital back end of Phase One. And so the danger for them, as Phase One gets closer to launching their new camera (s) is that the new camera from Phase One knocks it out of the park and the advantage of camera/lenses goes away for Hasselblad, leaving them with diminished prospects.

I think this way, they at least can preemptively take advantage of renewed buy-in to their system (though on what level would remain to be seen), be able to recoup profits from that revenue, and continue to develop their own system as well.

I hope this is true because I think it helps Hasselblad, and even though we do not sell Hasselblad, the medium format world is much better off with Hasselblad in it. Their exit would produce a lack of choice for end users, and a lack of competitive drive and offset for Phase One/Leaf/Mamiya. I also feel Hasselblad has opportunities to create additional digital camera platforms - Xpan, SWC, etc. I feel their strategy to focus so strongly on one single system, meaning the camera/lens system itself, presents sustainability challenges, given the ever increasing vertically-driven, niched marketplaces for high end photographic products.

BTW Howard - if you only knew all the information that is discussed between manufacturers and us that does not get disclosed..... (or at least not until the proper time).

I think I have signed 2 NDA's my whole career. But we discuss "not for public consumption" or "not ready for prime time news" issues regularly with our manufacturer partners. We honor the nature of the information in terms of whether it is appropriate to disclose or comment without signatures at a given time. Otherwise, much of that information flow would be reduced to a trickle.



Steve Hendrix

 

[BANKER1]

Steve,

All good points and make a lot of sense. You are probably right on all your suppositions. You put it in a better perspective for me since I am emotionally (having used their equipment since the early 70's) as well as monetarily invested in Hasselblad which skews my overall view. Sometimes it takes someone like you to put forward knowledgable arguments that fit into the overall pictures to snap me back to reality.

Greg

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Steve well said. The real issue at the moment and this reality not bias either. Is phase and hassy at one time shared a old design back which made choices more even. Now let's be real here and massive sales numbers are the proof. Phase beat Hassy to a new design on the back. Reality it's pretty dang awesome and many jumped all over it. Just talk to any Phase dealer. So with this it puts Hassy in a defensive position until they have a redesigned back. Let's think about this of Hassy can open that up to gain some customer loyalty to at least the platform than it is a very smart move. Not only can they get Hassy back sales with its back but give Phase shooters another option for there back and get some revenue from it. Not only that it beats the Phase new body and get some swing votes on the platform . This will catch some fish and when Phase does come out some folks will be already moved over to Hassy platform and be very reluctant to switch again. Let's be real here and face the reality the IQ has it going on and that is not bias but Hassy sees a chance of making it work in there favor until there redesigned back or not but gain revenue. Kudos to their thinking. It's a smart move

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Pardon the spelling on a location shoot and iphone

 

[Thierry]

+1

It is a small market of the global scale, not insignificant, nevertheless small.

Thierry

This thread seems to imply that the rental studios are the biggest market for the MF manufacturers. I do wonder about this on a global scale. In the markets I work in regularly (Australia, Indonesia, India, Malaysia, Oman, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Hong Kong and Singapore), my observation is that most of the pros who shoot MF own their own kit, be it Blad or Phase. Sure, there are rentals available but how significant is it? Just makes me wonder...

 

[Steve Hendrix]

+1

It is a small market of the global scale, not insignificant, nevertheless small.

Thierry

Exactly. Though they are uniquely positioned from the variety of users and the volume of units they deal with to offer a valuable perspective.

The amount of large, multi-bay photography studios is also a small part of the overall industry, but similarly, they also offer a valuable perspective with a high concentration of sampling.

It's hard to get "facts" in this industry, so in the absence of that, a collection of data points is the most reliable source for feedback on reliability. A single data point that will not provide the complete picture.


Steve Hendrix

 

[tjv]

Obviously Hasselblad's new owners must have made the push for this, sensing they bought in to a company perceived to be on the back foot with regard to speed of product releases etc. I'm not sure how they would allow an open platform H4 to work with DAC with a Phase back, unless it's all lens specific corrections without sensor specific corrections. I guess this is why they have partnered with Adobe. It's a smart move in my opinion, although I sense Hasselblad wants to get new products to market asap to compete with the new IQ series Phase backs and their undoubtably impending redesigned camera.

 

[fotografz]

Steve well said. The real issue at the moment and this reality not bias either. Is phase and hassy at one time shared a old design back which made choices more even. Now let's be real here and massive sales numbers are the proof. Phase beat Hassy to a new design on the back. Reality it's pretty dang awesome and many jumped all over it. Just talk to any Phase dealer. So with this it puts Hassy in a defensive position until they have a redesigned back. Let's think about this of Hassy can open that up to gain some customer loyalty to at least the platform than it is a very smart move. Not only can they get Hassy back sales with its back but give Phase shooters another option for there back and get some revenue from it. Not only that it beats the Phase new body and get some swing votes on the platform . This will catch some fish and when Phase does come out some folks will be already moved over to Hassy platform and be very reluctant to switch again. Let's be real here and face the reality the IQ has it going on and that is not bias but Hassy sees a chance of making it work in there favor until there redesigned back or not but gain revenue. Kudos to their thinking. It's a smart move

Pardon my asking ... what "massive sales numbers"?

While I agree that the IQ backs are great, they are great for some users and their specific applications, not all. No doubt in my mind that I'd still prefer a H4D/40 to an IQ140 on a H4D body because I prefer a straight full res ISO 1600. It is functionally as bias as that.

IMO, it IS a biased thrust here, not out of spite, negative spin or anything of the sort ... it is because this is a site overwhelmingly dominated by landscape shooters with specific needs that Phase has met. So, enthusiasm and bias is quite understandable. However, for me, and many that I know that do similar work, we are either shooting to a computer with 30" screens, or shooting on the run, where what Hasselblad offers more than does the job, and then some.

I have an H4D/60 which handles very well, is very reliable, and produces file quality that I've yet to see beaten by a comparable IQ back ... and many Hassey users are of the opinion that the Hassey files are better, so it greatly depends on who's doing the biasing. If I want the ultimate Image Quality studio files, I'll get a H4D/200. But, like the IQ backs, I just don't need it ... at least not any more.

In fact, I'm seriously questioning the whole MFD rat race these days because I just don't see better work because of it. Sorry, I just don't. So, my time is going into improving my ideas, and my money's going into lighting gear where I can see a marked improvement ... at least for my applications.

I do think Phase will do very well in the near term future ... mostly because they DO cater to a few specific applications in general (not soley). I think this is wise because landscape and tech camera work may be the last bastion of medium format digital gear.

Personally, I think Leica has placed the handwriting on the wall ... but it won't be them upsetting the apple cart, it'll be someone else that re-invents it all in a more practical manner.

Just my 2¢

-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Sorry Marc but sales have been very brisk with standing orders for months. This I know as fact. Dealers have enjoyed year end total sales from the past in one quarter. That is pretty dang good. Granted the word massive should have not been used. My bad

Btw I am NOT a landscape shooter by trade. I just shot 30 models with sensor plus on my DF.

I also really resent this bias talk by a very large margin.You know me far better than that. I would shoot a diesel engine if I thought it would work. Hell maybe I will buy a Hassy platform and my back so I never have to hear this again. Now there is a thought.

 

[fotografz]

Sorry Marc but sales have been very brisk with standing orders for months. This I know as fact. Dealers have enjoyed year end total sales from the past in one quarter. That is pretty dang good. Granted the word massive should have not been used. My bad

Btw I am NOT a landscape shooter by trade. I just shot 30 models with sensor plus on my DF.

I also really resent this bias talk by a very large margin.You know me far better than that. I would shoot a diesel engine if I thought it would work. Hell maybe I will buy a Hassy platform and my back so I never have to hear this again. Now there is a thought.

I'm not questioning that the new IQ backs are selling like hot cakes Guy. After all, there had to be a pent up demand for an improved back with a better LCD amongst Mamiya/Phase users.

Hassey had a better 3" LCD than Phase with the introduction of the H3D-II years ago. So, now Phase has the better, more innovative "review" system. So to me, it seems odd for a Phase reseller to publicly imply or flat out say that Hasseblad is not capable of producing a back that equals or leap frogs what exists now. That would be like me saying that Mamiya/Phase will NEVER be able to build a camera as good as the H4D.

In fact, future developments may not take the same technological direction of Phase, but the same objectives can be met with innovative thinking ...just look at how Hasselblad by-passed all the issues with multiple focus points in a MFD camera (especially a full frame one).

Okay, bias may be poor semantics, but then I'm not sure what word to use ... so I guess none is the best alternative

BTW, I seriously doubt that you need a 60 meg Phase One IQ to shoot models any more than I need a H4D/60 for such a project. We just do it because we can. In fact, I don't anymore, I use the S2 because it's better at that work than the Phase or Hasselblad.

-Marc

 

[Steve Hendrix]

I'm not questioning that the new IQ backs are selling like hot cakes Guy. After all, there had to be a pent up demand for an improved back with a better LCD amongst Mamiya/Phase users.

Hassey had a better 3" LCD than Phase with the introduction of the H3D-II years ago. So, now Phase has the better, more innovative "review" system. So to me, it seems odd for a Phase reseller to publicly imply or flat out say that Hasseblad is not capable of producing a back that equals or leap frogs what exists now. That would be like me saying that Mamiya/Phase will NEVER be able to build a camera as good as the H4D.

In fact, future developments may not take the same technological direction of Phase, but the same objectives can be met with innovative thinking ...just look at how Hasselblad by-passed all the issues with multiple focus points in a MFD camera (especially a full frame one).

Okay, bias may be poor semantics, but then I'm not sure what word to use ... so I guess none is the best alternative

BTW, I seriously doubt that you need a 60 meg Phase One IQ to shoot models any more than I need a H4D/60 for such a project. We just do it because we can. In fact, I don't anymore, I use the S2 because it's better at that work than the Phase or Hasselblad.

-Marc

I guess that was me, Marc. And that is my opinion. Just because Hassleblad had a better LCD than Phase One did years ago doesn't mean to me that they offered a better back end. There's a whole lot more to it than that, even with the new IQ backs. In my opinion, Phase One has always offered a better back end than Hasselblad, and given the pace of development, the apparent health and momentum of both companies, and the current offerings, I don't see Hasselblad catching up, let alone leap frogging. If this were not the case, then the idea of Hasselblad opening up their platform might appear more questionable than it is, given a scenario of superior back end mated to superior front end.

I don't mean to say that Hasselblad is not capable of matching/exceeding Phase One's ability on the back end. I am saying, in my opinion, given the evidence and how I evaluate that evidence, it seems unlikely.

This doesn't mean Hasselblad cannot compete. As they've already shown, being at a disadvantage on the back end doesn't mean that they still do not offer a compelling feature set to buyers.

It is not the same as saying Phase One/Mamiya cannot build a camera as good or better than the H4D. The same reasons that I feel Hasselblad is unlikely to match Phase One's back end are the same reasons Phase One/Mamiya can certainly similarly succeed with a camera.

They are the market leader. They have been successful, and this year is a record year. Even throughout this economic period, they have acquired two companies and obtained controlling interest in a third, and leveraged a long term strategic partnership with a 4th. They have established an excellent base to create a great camera, with Mamiya and Schneider as partners, along with Leaf, and their technical prowess from the Hy6 project. And they have been churning out new products, digital backs and lenses at a pace that says they have the R&D and production budgets to continue. That is my opinion.

But at the end of the day, it is not so important who dominates, it is more important that multiple companies compete. And there is no reason Hasselblad cannot compete. Everyone who owns a Hasselblad or a Leaf or Phase One or Mamiya or even Pentax, or even Leica MF product should enjoy it and hope there is more to come.

I don't really see the issue of bias on this forum (or others), other than perhaps there are more biased Phase One users than biased Hasselblad users present? (BTW, that last statement is not meant as an indication of worldwide or local sales numbers, or ..... sigh ....any other controversial claims of world domination...


Steve Hendrix

 

[PeterA]

I am thinking Hassy may be opening just as Phase One is about to announce a closing and new camera?

doesn't really matter though - cos the video and still convergence tech is making a lot of this stuff obsolete as far as fun factor goes.

-