The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Hassey Rumor: Open Platform H4D.

fotografz

Well-known member
I guess that was me, Marc. And that is my opinion. Just because Hassleblad had a better LCD than Phase One did years ago doesn't mean to me that they offered a better back end. There's a whole lot more to it than that, even with the new IQ backs. In my opinion, Phase One has always offered a better back end than Hasselblad, and given the pace of development, the apparent health and momentum of both companies, and the current offerings, I don't see Hasselblad catching up, let alone leap frogging. If this were not the case, then the idea of Hasselblad opening up their platform might appear more questionable than it is, given a scenario of superior back end mated to superior front end.

I don't mean to say that Hasselblad is not capable of matching/exceeding Phase One's ability on the back end. I am saying, in my opinion, given the evidence and how I evaluate that evidence, it seems unlikely.

This doesn't mean Hasselblad cannot compete. As they've already shown, being at a disadvantage on the back end doesn't mean that they still do not offer a compelling feature set to buyers.

It is not the same as saying Phase One/Mamiya cannot build a camera as good or better than the H4D. The same reasons that I feel Hasselblad is unlikely to match Phase One's back end are the same reasons Phase One/Mamiya can certainly similarly succeed with a camera.

They are the market leader. They have been successful, and this year is a record year. Even throughout this economic period, they have acquired two companies and obtained controlling interest in a third, and leveraged a long term strategic partnership with a 4th. They have established an excellent base to create a great camera, with Mamiya and Schneider as partners, along with Leaf, and their technical prowess from the Hy6 project. And they have been churning out new products, digital backs and lenses at a pace that says they have the R&D and production budgets to continue. That is my opinion.

But at the end of the day, it is not so important who dominates, it is more important that multiple companies compete. And there is no reason Hasselblad cannot compete. Everyone who owns a Hasselblad or a Leaf or Phase One or Mamiya or even Pentax, or even Leica MF product should enjoy it and hope there is more to come.

I don't really see the issue of bias on this forum (or others), other than perhaps there are more biased Phase One users than biased Hasselblad users present? (BTW, that last statement is not meant as an indication of worldwide or local sales numbers, or ..... sigh ....any other controversial claims of world domination... ;)


Steve Hendrix
Steve, rather than arguing semantics, perhaps it is more accurate to say that we are coming from different perspectives.

While I DO appreciate your opinion and do read it with interest as well as opinions of others ... I simply take it as opinion not fact, regardless how it is presented, what antidotal evidence accompanies it, or what credentials seem apparent. No matter what system or gear related opinion that is being forwarded, be it cameras, lenses, digital backs, or lighting gear, the credentials that matter to me are the end results. To that end, I have become VERY skeptical of early adopter enthusiasm, sales driven propaganda and purchase justifications ... which is why it took me over a year and a half before I bought into the Leica S2, despite my own lust for one, manufacturer claims of superiority, slick sales presentations, and initial user enthusiasm. I am VERY wary of all this anymore, as others should be IMHO. All of these companies have to feed the beast, and the only way to do it is make users dissatisfied with what they currently use ... when in reality, a huge expenditure usually makes little difference in the outcome ... which is why, if the truth be told, most professional photographers are more pragmatic, and aren't on the bleeding edge of digital technology, but continue to produce images just as good as they always have. Let's not confuse a fascination with toys and the thrill of mastering some new do-dad with actual photography.

Frankly, as a photographer, I do not see the evidence of better anything in the actual outcome. Sorry, despite lofty tecno-claims and internet marketing chit-chat, I do not see claims of Phase superiority translating into better quality of images than from other systems. I DO understand that for some applications, certain digital back feature sets translate into an easier path to the end result ... but that is application specific, and the basis for photographers to make purchase decisions. For example, for the ultimate, application specific studio work, the superior product to my eye is the H4D/200, and I still prefer that ALL of my lenses including the wide angles be leaf shutter, so that made my decision path clearer. For faster paced hand-held work or people shooting no doubt I gravitate to the Leica S2. Granted, not everyone can indulge in expensive dual systems, however, that is not the rule but instead the exception ... most photographers have a more clearly defined path, or at least a dominate application that colors their reasoning.

On the other hand, for field work like so many here on this forum do, I can easily see gravitating to an IQ solution. Guy is a bit of an anomaly here in that he is very adept at manipulating a system to his varied purposes, be it his commercial work or his GetDpi workshop applications ... before MFD, he "enthusiastically" did it with a Leica DMR or M digital ... which is a pretty rare occurrence, not the norm.

Over the years I've watched with interest the trek others have taken ... specifically those who seem to know their desired end, both experientially and in the final results, then match their gear to it ... Jono has wisely resisted Medium Format and kept his lively experiential approach to making photographs. Recently, I have watched Shelby Lewis construct a MFD kit on a shoe-string budget and is already producing his kind of work. Would he like a big bad digital back? I'd hazard a guess that yes he would, but I'd also speculate that it would not make a wit of difference in his actual outcome, and he'd be tens of thousands of dollars the poorer for it.

I know my perspective is not exactly PC here, and I also am VERY aware of being something of a gear slut hypocrite :rolleyes: ... but I do not confuse my own failings with what is real, and am fast re-inventing myself and getting back to making ideas come to life rather than making more purchases ... and for that I do not need yet another "next best thing" ... and in reality, neither does most anyone else :eek:

-Marc
 

tjv

Active member
Well said, Marc. Sometimes it's nice to chew the fat about technology and gizmos, but at the end of the day no matter what "camp" you're in the image quality is there to satisfy pretty much anything you can imagine. We're lucky to live in an age that presents us with so many ways around so many problems.

Looking forward to hearing what Hasselblad are rumored to announce. Could be it'll place me a step closer to my dream of a digital transition via a more open second hand route.
 

jecxz

Active member
I don't really see the issue of bias on this forum (or others), other than perhaps there are more biased Phase One users than biased Hasselblad users present?
Steve Hendrix
Steve, you know I respect you and don't mean to be rude but I've spoken with you a number of times in the past, when you were an avid Hasselblad person, and this statement of yours is inaccurate. You were aware of it and we chatted about it. The bias is obvious and blatant (actually nasty) at that other forum and here it is far less.

Guy, you may feel that you are objective, but respectfully, some may feel that you, Jack and others who run this forum are hooked into the Phase marketing arm through various avenues and participations. This in no way diminishes your opinion or reduces respect, it's only meant as an observation. It's a valid perspective and kudos to Phase one for turning the forums into an extension of their marketing. And I stress again, you, Jack and the others here go out of your way to make everyone feel welcome and it's obvious, it's appreciated.

The length of time it's taking Phase to develop a camera body (and as Steve states, Phase purchased several related companies), demonstrates the difficulty in creating a fully integrated system (body and lenses and back). It's so easy for Phase supporters to forget that Hasselblad has the responsibility to develop, support and manage all sides of the equation; if it were so easy, Phase would have released an integrated body five+ years ago. When they do, after a year of debugging, it'll be a killer (perhaps we're looking at full release in 2013). But until then, it's important to consider this fact and it's nearly 2012 already.

In the end, Marc is right, at least for me, a new Phase body or an IQ back (while cool!) won't help me make better photographs (it may help others) and my ancient Hasselblad 39mp backs do a terrific job for my licensing and sales. The only thing that will help me is to work harder.

Kind regards,
Derek
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Steve, you know I respect you and don't mean to be rude but I've spoken with you a number of times in the past, when you were an avid Hasselblad person, and this statement of yours is inaccurate. You were aware of it and we chatted about it. The bias is obvious and blatant (actually nasty) at that other forum and here it is far less.

Guy, you may feel that you are objective, but respectfully, some may feel that you, Jack and others who run this forum are hooked into the Phase marketing arm through various avenues and participations. This in no way diminishes your opinion or reduces respect, it's only meant as an observation. It's a valid perspective and kudos to Phase one for turning the forums into an extension of their marketing. And I stress again, you, Jack and the others here go out of your way to make everyone feel welcome and it's obvious, it's appreciated.

The length of time it's taking Phase to develop a camera body (and as Steve states, Phase purchased several related companies), demonstrates the difficulty in creating a fully integrated system (body and lenses and back). It's so easy for Phase supporters to forget that Hasselblad has the responsibility to develop, support and manage all sides of the equation; if it were so easy, Phase would have released an integrated body five+ years ago. When they do, after a year of debugging, it'll be a killer (perhaps we're looking at full release in 2013). But until then, it's important to consider this fact and it's nearly 2012 already.

In the end, Marc is right, at least for me, a new Phase body or an IQ back (while cool!) won't help me make better photographs (it may help others) and my ancient Hasselblad 39mp backs do a terrific job for my licensing and sales. The only thing that will help me is to work harder.

Kind regards,
Derek

Thanks Derek and yes no question I do like most of the Phase products since that is what I shoot and the back,lenses and software are my favorite parts. Not crazy about the Phase marketing arm comment as I really am not be holding to anyone and honestly never want to be ever. So I'm not but respect your comment anyway since obviously no question I am very involved in this forum and have very good friends in the Phase dealership as well. Freely admit in private I am tagged on a daily basis on helping people make purchase decisions but on the same hand I would never say the DF is the king of anything. First and foremost I am honest about my opinion with no hidden agenda. Now without spilling the beans here directly, I all of a sudden have maybe a option on platform if I wanted to go down this path. Frankly I actually been giving Hassy a lot of credit here but can't say why. Feels like I'm hitting on a hot blonde but tiring to bed down her brunette friend. :ROTFL: okay that was meant to be funny. But let me be also very honest Jack and I have on several occasions tired very hard with Hassy on getting demo's and getting a chance to even try there products and it has gone on deaf ears. Even my friends at Leica would give me anything I want to demo knowing how hard I was on them on the S2 in the beginning. They certainly improved a lot since than and I am planning a new review with them when they are delivering the CS lenses.

Now i have taken that ignoring of Hassy and let it go and still support there product line. I have said it before if I did not go Phase I would have went Hassy. Today I maybe might just go Leica and frankly if I really had some money in my pocket . Go Phase with my Cambo and 4 tech lenses and have a S2 to shoot that other stuff but I can't do it. Problem is it would be Phase tech kit and Canon for other stuff but I can't seem to pull that trigger since not a damn thing turns me on in 35 mm land. But I am so tempted to do this I can't tell you , I think about it everyday. But you never know what I will do next either, so never be surprised . I will and have turned on a dime before. As you can see I am not married to anything when it comes to gear. My new fling is with Cambo right now. I'm having fun with that. But I will freely admit my IQ 160 sings a very nice tune for me and love it along with C1. If there is my bias anywhere it's the back and software. Everything else is changeable in my mind.
The key word here in all this is choice.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Steve, rather than arguing semantics, perhaps it is more accurate to say that we are coming from different perspectives.

While I DO appreciate your opinion and do read it with interest as well as opinions of others ... I simply take it as opinion not fact, regardless how it is presented, what antidotal evidence accompanies it, or what credentials seem apparent. No matter what system or gear related opinion that is being forwarded, be it cameras, lenses, digital backs, or lighting gear, the credentials that matter to me are the end results. To that end, I have become VERY skeptical of early adopter enthusiasm, sales driven propaganda and purchase justifications ... which is why it took me over a year and a half before I bought into the Leica S2, despite my own lust for one, manufacturer claims of superiority, slick sales presentations, and initial user enthusiasm. I am VERY wary of all this anymore, as others should be IMHO. All of these companies have to feed the beast, and the only way to do it is make users dissatisfied with what they currently use ... when in reality, a huge expenditure usually makes little difference in the outcome ... which is why, if the truth be told, most professional photographers are more pragmatic, and aren't on the bleeding edge of digital technology, but continue to produce images just as good as they always have. Let's not confuse a fascination with toys and the thrill of mastering some new do-dad with actual photography.

Frankly, as a photographer, I do not see the evidence of better anything in the actual outcome. Sorry, despite lofty tecno-claims and internet marketing chit-chat, I do not see claims of Phase superiority translating into better quality of images than from other systems. I DO understand that for some applications, certain digital back feature sets translate into an easier path to the end result ... but that is application specific, and the basis for photographers to make purchase decisions. For example, for the ultimate, application specific studio work, the superior product to my eye is the H4D/200, and I still prefer that ALL of my lenses including the wide angles be leaf shutter, so that made my decision path clearer. For faster paced hand-held work or people shooting no doubt I gravitate to the Leica S2. Granted, not everyone can indulge in expensive dual systems, however, that is not the rule but instead the exception ... most photographers have a more clearly defined path, or at least a dominate application that colors their reasoning.

On the other hand, for field work like so many here on this forum do, I can easily see gravitating to an IQ solution. Guy is a bit of an anomaly here in that he is very adept at manipulating a system to his varied purposes, be it his commercial work or his GetDpi workshop applications ... before MFD, he "enthusiastically" did it with a Leica DMR or M digital ... which is a pretty rare occurrence, not the norm.

Over the years I've watched with interest the trek others have taken ... specifically those who seem to know their desired end, both experientially and in the final results, then match their gear to it ... Jono has wisely resisted Medium Format and kept his lively experiential approach to making photographs. Recently, I have watched Shelby Lewis construct a MFD kit on a shoe-string budget and is already producing his kind of work. Would he like a big bad digital back? I'd hazard a guess that yes he would, but I'd also speculate that it would not make a wit of difference in his actual outcome, and he'd be tens of thousands of dollars the poorer for it.

I know my perspective is not exactly PC here, and I also am VERY aware of being something of a gear slut hypocrite :rolleyes: ... but I do not confuse my own failings with what is real, and am fast re-inventing myself and getting back to making ideas come to life rather than making more purchases ... and for that I do not need yet another "next best thing" ... and in reality, neither does most anyone else :eek:

-Marc

Marc -

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I do think that while what you have written is pretty unarguable, I also feel that your position doesn't require an analysis of my post. What you have stated is pretty good common sense, shared by many photographers, especially on the commercial side.

But I just want to say that while I may have feelings or opinions about the end result, they mostly stay private, meaning I don't necessarily feel in general that one digital back substantially trumps another in general application image quality.

However, I do discuss freely the process of getting there, and the elements that affect that, be it both hardware and software. And in this regard my opinion is out there. And that is all it is, my opinion. I'm not declaring any facts here, and I state it as such.

At the end of the day, what matters is what is in the photographers head, their heart, and their soul. And the only other thing that ultimately matters is ensuring the path to bringing that to life is as unimpeded or positively facilitated as possible.

Manufacturers like Phase One, Leaf, Hasselblad, etc, all do their best to produce the best product they possibly can. Our responsibility it to measure the capabilities of those products in the photographers hands and help determine the best fit for any photographer attracted by what any new (or old, for that matter) model brings to the table. I don't think you see us (at CI) throwing marketing, gear-envy headlines into discussion forums trying to entice photographers that they just aren't the s**t anymore if they don't have the latest, greatest. That more often comes from the photographers themselves. :rolleyes: We usually find ourselves in the position of trying to tamp down enthusiasm when it is misplaced, rather than building it up.

So.... please, by all means do not take my opinion as fact. Because in the case where it is my opinion being presented, there is no presumption of fact, other than this is what I believe. You and anyone else here are free to believe what you wish to.

I promise I won't automatically take your opinions as fact if you promise not to take mine that way either. :thumbup:


Steve Hendrix
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Steve, you know I respect you and don't mean to be rude but I've spoken with you a number of times in the past, when you were an avid Hasselblad person, and this statement of yours is inaccurate. You were aware of it and we chatted about it. The bias is obvious and blatant (actually nasty) at that other forum and here it is far less.

Guy, you may feel that you are objective, but respectfully, some may feel that you, Jack and others who run this forum are hooked into the Phase marketing arm through various avenues and participations. This in no way diminishes your opinion or reduces respect, it's only meant as an observation. It's a valid perspective and kudos to Phase one for turning the forums into an extension of their marketing. And I stress again, you, Jack and the others here go out of your way to make everyone feel welcome and it's obvious, it's appreciated.

The length of time it's taking Phase to develop a camera body (and as Steve states, Phase purchased several related companies), demonstrates the difficulty in creating a fully integrated system (body and lenses and back). It's so easy for Phase supporters to forget that Hasselblad has the responsibility to develop, support and manage all sides of the equation; if it were so easy, Phase would have released an integrated body five+ years ago. When they do, after a year of debugging, it'll be a killer (perhaps we're looking at full release in 2013). But until then, it's important to consider this fact and it's nearly 2012 already.

In the end, Marc is right, at least for me, a new Phase body or an IQ back (while cool!) won't help me make better photographs (it may help others) and my ancient Hasselblad 39mp backs do a terrific job for my licensing and sales. The only thing that will help me is to work harder.

Kind regards,
Derek

Derek -

I didn't say that Phase One bias did not exist. I said that there is also Hasselblad bias, and if there is more Phase One bias, then there are simply fewer biased Hasselblad users present. I mean, I thought what I was saying was kind of obvious. Now, yes, certain participants have an agenda, and we have discussed that in the past (and you know who I'm talking about). But that is different than a bias. Everyone has a bias.

Yes, it is difficult to develop an entire system. And Hasselblad got into the digital back game late (by acquiring Colorcrisp in 2001). They've done well narrowing that gap on the developmental head start that Phase One had. And Phase One got into the camera game late (by acquiring Leaf, investing into Mamiya, leveraging Schneider, etc). But I don't understand why Hasseblad advocates have a hard time accepting that Phase One has always been ahead of them on the back end when they can clearly state that Hasselblad has a lead on the front end.

It doesn't seem like that controversial of a statement to me.

BTW - regardless of what camera you use, your work continues to inspire me.


Steve Hendrix
 

jecxz

Active member
Guy, no offense was meant with the marketing arm remark, PhaseOne was smart to get into the forums; I can't answer why Hasselblad did not take you up on your offer to review new gear, perhaps they had such bad experiences elsewhere and didn't want to take any chances (see the acknowledged agenda below), but that's just a guess (it is not saying you would be unfair in a review). I also feel your response to me demonstrates your open mind and as I said, it flows down to how you guys run the forum.

Steve, I agree, "bias" is probably is the wrong word; "having an agenda" is better. We won't name names but I'm glad we both recognize it and agree it exists. I also don't think stating that PhaseOne's backs are better is controversial, I don't think that has been said. From what little I've read here on this forum, the IQ backs are incredible - I'm not sure why you'd use the word controversial. (And thank you for your kind words about my work, I'm doing the best I can.) People should know that you helped guide me when my dealer totally dropped the ball on my Hasslelbad gear, and I'm still appreciative.

As far as choice of equipment, I can only echo what Marc has said above. At some point you and the gear must produce results unless you're just buying it because it's fancy. And once you have it, it can become a viscious cycle of upgrading, at which point your only purpose is to support PhaseOne or Hasselblad (or whomever) and that's not a good place to be. What's bad for Hasselblad is that I'm too happy with the results from my H3DII39s. That too will happen to PhaseOne (with their backs or new body). Again, this is nothing new, Marc already covered this.

Kind regards,
Derek
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
Frankly, as a photographer, I do not see the evidence of better anything in the actual outcome. Sorry, despite lofty tecno-claims and internet marketing chit-chat, I do not see claims of Phase superiority translating into better quality of images than from other systems.
(Firstly... thanks for the kind remarks, Marc.)

This idea is something with which I've really struggled. For me, 28mp is a big bad back, lol... and the tonality and serendipitous beauty it offers in combo with the mamiya RZ (and AFD) glass translates into something that surpasses pixel count and feature creep of the newer tech. So, when I see the end results of my lowly set-up and think about what might change if I were to upgrade to an IQ back, I actually cringe a bit. What if that lovely "something" going on between that low-mp Dalsa sensor and those lenses goes away? What if that little bit of "texture" in that sensor goes away and gives me a file that seems so clean as to be sterile? (I loved the bit of texture in the sony a900 files).

So from this end of things, all this talk of system changes and markets is missing a major component... what is it offering the artists? I mean, really, is a more competitive marketplace better for us if the gear we have now is already too much? I know I'm just stirring the pot a bit, but I sometimes wonder if the "market" is more important than the results of using these great cameras.

To stay on topic... i wouldn't mind an opening up of the hassy system. I like the H body better than the current phase body. For the portrait shooter, it sure would be cool to be able to use get true-focus with a phase/leaf back.
 

goesbang

Member
The day we stop saying what we actually think here is the day this forum stops being of any value. Everyone is biased, that's life, get over it. Give respect where its due and consider what all have to say - nobody is forcing anyone to take what's said here as Gospel. We're all smart enough to form our own opinions and hopefully respectful enough to express them without the childish and unhelpful "flaming" that occurs elsewhere.
This forum has thusfar struck a pretty good balance, thanks in no small part to leadership by example from Guy and Jack. I, for one, think accusing them of being biased (in the negative sense of the word) is unfair, given the wealth of evidence to the contrary. If they have a preference, they should be free to state that preference and the reasons therefor.
I am slightly troubled by what I see as a tendency to soften statements in the name of "politeness" or from fear of offending sensitive people or companies. Sadly, this can mean that some things that need to be said, don't get said. I think it is possible to be pretty blunt without being rude and this is healthy.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Bryan - it is a general truth that people cant handle the truth. Personally I think the forum is too polite too often at the wrong time. But that is probably my rude Antipodean manner.

It is what it has become this forum - but I would not accuse Jack of a bias not based on his honest assessment of anything - Guy is biased for sure - about everything he currently shoots. Anyone following Guys history with gear in this and other forums over time will know he pretty much falls into and out of love every six months and adapts his workflow and gear choices to what works for him - from a professional perspective - at the time.

A lot of members though aren't professional shooters and also a lot of people reading forums like this do so in order to get information. If there is too much bias the signal to noise ratio tilts the wrong way. Generally speaking this forum is as ok as one could hope for and probably a lot better than most expect.

Everyone has their on screen typing style and everyone has their good and bad days - these days with the world looking like it is about to go through round two of a crisis- add nervous jitters to the mix!

However people with eyes can see great work done by all sorts of cameras on this site and in this forum. As long as that important point continues to be delivered - then the balance is ok.

my 2 cents
Pete
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
For me as a Hasselblad user it would just be great, if the H4D would open up again for Phase. Would just give me much more options to choose from. And quite frankly, I really love and prefer the H handling of cameras and lenses to the Phase handling and this would allow me to use a IQ160 on and upgraded H4D body - just perfect.

Hasselblad move on and make this happen asap!
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I should make it clear that I do NOT think any bias is a particularly negative one here on Get Dpi, and said so a couple of times on this thread. This is my favorite forum for its general tone and sharing of information across a wide spectrum of photographic subjects. However, IF I disagree with any given statement I'll pipe up and challenge it. Sometimes it is incorrect information (even from Phase reps) or incomplete information, and sometimes it is assumptions that I do not agree with.

If Hasselblad chooses to not participate in forum reviews in general and Get Dpi specifically, that's their decision. There are two informative forums that specifically provide a direct conduit to other experienced H users to answer technical questions or whatever ... plus, Hasselblad has their own system of demonstrations and specific method of getting questions answered as well as the Hasselblad Owners Club on their website. So, frankly, Get Dpi isn't where I would go for Hasselblad specific technical questions. In fact, I've definitely answered more questions regarding Hasselblad than I have ever asked here. BTW, this has playing out in a similar manner with the Leica S2, where the Red Dot forum is a rich source for technical, service and technique questions.

This absence could well account for the bias toward Phase One, because there IS a lot of experienced users here, as well as company representation. THAT however doesn't make Phase One systems superior in any way, and I'll challenge such stated assumptions when I feel it is appropriate.

I do not agree with Steve's statement that Phase One has ALWAYS been ahead in the back end ... that heavily depends on a photographer's applications, and to my way of thinking "AlWAYS" can never be a blanket statement from any maker. That is the difference of a photographer's perspective verses a marketer's perspective. As a Photographer with fairly well defined objectives, I found the H3D-II/39 just as good as the Phase offering in terms of IQ, with a better LCD, one button start up, and control ergonomics, and at the time, the Hasselblad Multi-Shot cameras were the top dog for studio based or institutional IQ ... which then led to a H3D-II/50 with the Kodak sensor that some prefer over Dalsa, and Phase never had ... then to the H3D-II/50 Multi-shot. Again, it heavily depends on applicational bias and phtographic intent. Now the excellent IQs have the lead if you need or want that sort of functionality ... which I personally do not but other's may and are excited about it.

I may be wrong, but do not recall any official Hasselblad representative ever directly addressing Phase One's camera, or systems shortcomings in such an overtly discounting manner, which would be very easy to do IMO.

Personally, as a systems oriented photographer, I still think Hasselblad is the leader, and has blazed a somewhat balanced path of camera, lens, back package with useful innovations like TF thrown in (and with the inclusion of the lens and color profiles in LR ... I now also include software) ... rather than pushing for dominance in one area and neglecting the other. Of course, that may change in future, but this is NOW, and we can't take pictures with speculative equipment no matter who's it is.

-Marc
 

Bryan Stephens

Workshop Member
I have been using both the Phase One p45+, and the Hasselblad H4D40 in "demo" mode for a few days each and these are my "findings" thus far:

I like the viewfinder in the H4 as it is slightly brighter and easier to use, but I have previous experience with Hasselblad and am more familiar with their system as a whole. After getting away from MF for a while and concentraing on 35mm, it was a very nice relief to have such a large image in the viewfinder

I slightly prefer the ergonomics of the camera and I do like that it operates on one battery compared to two separate power systems, but that isnt too important for me, especially because the battery for the H4 costs a good price

Image quality: It may be just me, but in comparing the two, the images are about as equal as I can see, although I have not had enough time to play with Phocus or with Capture One enough to see how much each can enhance their own images.

For now, one large advantage that the Phase system has is the ability to use several different backs which is a large advantage to be sure as there are more vendors available. If this current rumor about the Hasselblad is true, then I may have to hold off a little while longer before actually making my purchase.

I wish I could just find a sugar momma so I could just get both as they are both great systems from what I can see.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
In regards to the original thread...I welcome an open H model, the choices will be excellent, and the need to upgrade systems might be curbed a bit. Sometimes the marketing hype tries to make some feel they absolutely need the new features. Given an open H4 system allows many to experience other DB's without having to change camera systems completely.
Earlier in MFD quest, I had some technical issues with the "H" models, but wasn't heavily invested in H glass, so switching cameras wasn't a big deal. I heard all the sales pitches from everyone why their system was better, and even had one Phase dealer get annoyed when I wouldn't commit. The economy dictated certain expenditures, but to them it was just a sale...to me, it was an important, personal choice that my career depends on. Now that Hasselblad will consider an open platform, I'm interested because it's camera is far superior to the Phase DF. Personal feelings about brand loyalty or reliability are lessons learned from experience. I've recently viewed images taken with a Hasselblad CFV-16, by a photographer whose technique, far surpassed anything i've yet to experience with a Phase IQ. The Hasselblad announcement will allow many to mix and match, without having to completely give up one for another, it will slow the industries exploitation of planned obsolescence of digital gear, and perhaps we'll all save money!
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Bryan - it is a general truth that people cant handle the truth. Personally I think the forum is too polite too often at the wrong time. But that is probably my rude Antipodean manner.

It is what it has become this forum - but I would not accuse Jack of a bias not based on his honest assessment of anything - Guy is biased for sure - about everything he currently shoots. Anyone following Guys history with gear in this and other forums over time will know he pretty much falls into and out of love every six months and adapts his workflow and gear choices to what works for him - from a professional perspective - at the time.

A lot of members though aren't professional shooters and also a lot of people reading forums like this do so in order to get information. If there is too much bias the signal to noise ratio tilts the wrong way. Generally speaking this forum is as ok as one could hope for and probably a lot better than most expect.

Everyone has their on screen typing style and everyone has their good and bad days - these days with the world looking like it is about to go through round two of a crisis- add nervous jitters to the mix!

However people with eyes can see great work done by all sorts of cameras on this site and in this forum. As long as that important point continues to be delivered - then the balance is ok.

my 2 cents
Pete
Pete i think you have bias and enthusiasm very confused. I'm far from bias but I am a very enthusiastic about what I like in my gear. Frankly you actually know very little here the last 6 years I owned Leica R , Leica M and Phase systems and yes i have talked about them a great deal because I am enthusiastic about them and been very public, yes i like to talk. But what 99 percent of the members do not know is in the same times periods i owned 2 Nikons, 3 Sonys, 3 Canons , Panasonic and a few others and rarely talked about any of them if ever in public. Like I have said they never turned me on so why talk about them. I loved my DMR and my M8's but when it came to Phase it was always a natural progressions of backs that I owned that with each new model was better and better. P25,P30,P40, Briefly P65 and now the IQ 160 but tested the crap out of the 180 which i really liked but did not buy it for very specific reasons which where very public.

So that bias comment is really a comment that has zero merit. Enthusiasm on the other hand for what gear I like is the reality. I am not bias as I would buy a Hassy or S2 in a NY second if I thought it would be better. I don't think either one is so if I did i would probably not even mention it just like the thousands of dollars I spent on 35mm gear that can't get my heart to beat a step faster. My preferences are my preferences and we all have them and proud to say I like my Phase backs and always have , I have never produced technically better images EVER than with these backs. Every aspect of my files is dead on the money, how the hell am i not supposed to be happy about that. So you comment well and good and respect it is DEAD WRONG.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
Guy, I would call it, being passionate about photography and all things associated with helping you be a photographer/creating the image.

Of course, your wife probably wishes you were more biased, so you'd stick with one camera system and stop emptying the family coffers...

:ROTFL:
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I freely admit i toss stuff out the door in a NY second if it does not do what i want. Okay guilty as hell there but seriously if this stuff don't give me a blank blank it aint worth squat to me. I've been doing this to long to put up with too many compromises. I still love the M stuff but my limits where the files size now the M9 does solve that but getting back in is not easy money wise. And it still has those limits with shooting them that I need sometimes. If i had it my way and was not shooting commercially I would have my Phase Back 4 tech lenses and a M9 setup with 3 lenses and have to say that would turn me on. I'm jealous of the folks that have that setup and can get away with it.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Perhaps the bias stems from the fact that GetDPI, has workshops that are hosted in association with Capture Integration...a Phase dealer. I might be wrong, but i've not seen any advertising through any of Hasselblad sites, touting such workshops. That's okay, and to be expected, if someone teaches a workshop and chooses a particular brand, I want to know why.
Forums should certainly have an objective tone with a modicum of respect, but if influenced by a sponsor, it might color that a bit. I have found this forum to lean towards Phase, but balanced with a good amount of useful info in other areas. Yes, I've been warned in the past by moderators to tone down my rhetoric or risk being banned, but it's only because my words are misrepresented from my tone and intention. No one is blaming you Guy, for standing by a product, you represent Phase nicely, I think it's just evolution of the forum taking shape.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Memories of Canon vs Nikon and Nikon vs Canon albeit far more polite and use/results orientated than the usual brand war fistfights... :ROTFL:
 
Top