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Thread: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

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    RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    I haven't posted for a while partly because I have spent most of my free time getting to grips with RED's new Epic camera system - one that I expect over time will give MF manufacturers real cause for concern.
    I didn't think we were there yet though, but fyi - RED's founder today claimed on their forum that the Epic outperformed an IQ180 in a recent pano shot of Vegas.

    I feel quite torn about this so wanted to flag here for those who are interested and unconflicted in their views.

    link here

    Marc

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Interesting post - don't hold your breath waiting for much agreement here - -

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Ha ! I'd love to hear all sides of this debate. RED is real - and it has funding, vision and momentum. We should all be following its progress. They also have a 645 chipped camera on the drawing board....

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Interesting discussion - I spent a happy afternoon talking to someone about Epic, Cooke lenses and other esoterics . . . It makes money spent on Hassy / Phase or Leica pale into insignificance!

    Just this guy you know

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    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Am I missing something? Even the Leica M9 could have reproduced that scene with similar DR...

    I wish I could see the final print or a full res image, I'd like to compare it to one of my M9 stitched panos, from a much smaller (and cheaper) package.

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Interesting discussion - I spent a happy afternoon talking to someone about Epic, Cooke lenses and other esoterics . . . It makes money spent on Hassy / Phase or Leica pale into insignificance!
    Its a whole different ballgame Jono and top quality glass is indeed occupies a different price realm altogether. A set (8) of Leica Summilux-C lenses will set you back $200K

    Fortunately, RED have launched a fully electronic canon lens mount, also catering for AF, although I am yet to receive mine. This should help with the transition for many photographers. The system is modular so you just remove the PL mount and add the canon one.

    My personal favourites are the Arri Master primes. 12mm f/1.2 anyone ? The potential for low-light landscapes and timelapse is enormous here.

    I recently was asked to take a family portrait - Parents, hyperactive 3 year old, 6 month old. For fun - I shot it on the Epic at 120fps and took 15MP full frame grabs. In one minute, I had about 30 usable shots and didn't require strobes. Trying doing that with a stills camera !!

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    I think the RED products are really groundbreaking... but how will they serve someone, like me, who works at closer to 1 frame per 10 seconds (ie, RZ67).

    I don't want faster... I want a slow and personal connection with my subject that RED surely could fill, but it would be akin to using an M-16 as a one-shot sniper rifle. Capable, but incorrectly purposed.

    I think it RED REALLY has it's place and is doing amazing things... but "better" is a subjective term that throws a pretty wide blanket over things. In terms of the IQ180, are we talking about image quality or functionality?

    Beautiful shot, BTW!

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    Workshop Member Bryan Stephens's Avatar
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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    I guess it all depends on what your needs are, and how much of the kids college fund you are willing to spend. I am personally more along the lines of you Shelby in that unless I am shooting a sporting event, I take my time.

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Does it say anywhere how many frames with red compared to the 180 . If its 20 to 3 than sure it would look better.

    I'm very happy for the RED system and what it brings to that market. I'm just a still guy and can't find my way into that medium at all on a artistic level.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ....I'm very happy for the RED system and what it brings to that market. I'm just a still guy and can't find my way into that medium at all on a artistic level.
    So, your wife said, "No," huh?


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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Exactly. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Much better than what my wife would probably say. If I told her I wanted to buy a new digital camera system and a few lenses for about $100k she would say "Divorce".

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Fantastic.

    I spent 40 years of my life involved in motion work. Totally alternate world. No doubt the most influential visual medium for the past 50 years ... and RED is one of next steps in its evolution ... along with cell phone video

    The thought process for creating motion is so different ... and post is a whole other kettle of fish.

    Still photography is my retirement plan ... kick back and take it easy.

    -Marc

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Am I missing something?
    No you're not.

    It's a nice image, but the fanboy comments based on a small JPEG are a bit of a joke. You could get the same result with most $1K SLRs after the same 'grading' and tone mapping. Calling it a Phase-beater because they stitched enough images together to beat it is pointless. Any Canikon user could claim the same. It's still not giving you that much resolution in one shot mode (14MP?) That's fantastic for video, obviously. They also don't mention what kind of exposure controls you have. Can you make a 30 second exposure with it? 1/4000th? Can you shoot stills at all or do you have to pull a frame from video? If so, can you shoot stills tethered? I doubt it. Can you even use flash with it? Too many things are missing to make this a serious stills tool. A bit like oohing and aahing over a Canon 5Dii as a video camera - it can pull off some neat tricks but it's fairly limited.

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Heh... that photo has stirred a lot of discussion on multiple forums. Honestly, I don't really care for it. I do dig the Red Epic quite a bit however. Here's a little dynamic range test I did in my living room. The curtains and the light fixtures blew me away.

    Phase One P65+, Schneider 35mm XL APO-Digitar, straight out of C1 Pro HDR sliders used to get max detail



    Red Epic, Cooke Panchro/i 18mm, straight out of RedCine-X



    As mentioned above, this **** does get DAMN expensive!

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    I am not sure I understand the excitement about motion. The thought of armies of photographers shotgunning mediocre pictures at 24fps is...unsettling. The linked picture has all the subtelty of fully made up Vegas show girl. There is a right place for that, but quality still photography is a different beast. We are stuggling to understand how the still and motion fields can interact when the answer may be that they do not, really.

    Making good motion takes a level of teamwork that provides a serious entry barrier. I have great respect for the photographers who are trying to penetrate that barrier, but I doubt that many will succeed commercially by using still production methods to acquire motion.

    What amazes me is that some of you are managing to implement electrical/lighting, cinematography, grip, location, props, post, etc etc all with tiny resource bases. This is a grand experiment and interesting to watch. How well can still photographers grow to accomodate motion technical challenges and the rather intense business model? As I said, an experiment in professional evolution and we can hope it all works.

    Taking technically questionable motion of a wedding or local fashion show and hoping that some of the frames will be of professional still quality..... I doubt that will be particularly rewarding.

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    ..There is a right place for that, but quality still photography is a different beast. We are stuggling to understand how the still and motion fields can interact when the answer may be that they do not, really...
    It depends on the application. For example, for a journalist, being able to select which DECISIVE moment to pick is big. For a landscape photographer it doesn't any appeal.

    I just came back from PPE (PhotoPlus Expo) ... a quarter of products were video related (DSLR).

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    It depends on the application. For example, for a journalist, being able to select which DECISIVE moment to pick is big. For a landscape photographer it doesn't any appeal.
    I would agree with that. I know that when I shot on safari last year that firing off bursts of images at 9fps with my D3s generally got me one keeper out of ten that shooting single shots wouldn't have matched. Ditto I can see that for journalism and action photography that this video approach could provide the choice of decisive frame, so long as you caught at least one.

    For landscape & scenic work I'm not yet convinced. However, I'll readily admit that I don't know what I don't know with respect to techniques with the RED to capture these types of images. Maybe I'm missing something here - are these landscapes shot in video mode or just single frames?

    The DR of Chris Barrrett's example is impressive - at this level of presentation at least. The Peter Lik example looked almost CGI or cartoon like but then perhaps it is absolutely stunning in person. It looks artificial in that smallish jpg. Now if they posted an example at full resolution using something like Zoomify then we might be able to make a better judgement call.

    Btw, "better than an IQ180" - better in what way? Too broad a description to really mean anything. My iPhone is better than an IQ180 at being a portable phone with a camera ...
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    :
    Btw, "better than an IQ180" - better in what way? Too broad a description to really mean anything. My iPhone is better than an IQ180 at being a portable phone with a camera ...
    I know if I ever bought a MF camera, I would have friends that think there are many conditions a 35mm DSLR would be btter suited for, and think that the money I'd have spent a waste! Whereas, while there maybe some truth to what they might argue, I will know what and where it counts for it's worth. Usually the word better used in these context are attention seeking, with reason of course. No doubt, I think the RED EPIC is..... well, err... EPIC!

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    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    You've got it immediately!



    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    So, your wife said, "No," huh?
    Thierry Hagenauer
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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    +1

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Mitchell View Post
    No you're not.

    It's a nice image, but the fanboy comments based on a small JPEG are a bit of a joke. You could get the same result with most $1K SLRs after the same 'grading' and tone mapping. Calling it a Phase-beater because they stitched enough images together to beat it is pointless. Any Canikon user could claim the same. It's still not giving you that much resolution in one shot mode (14MP?) That's fantastic for video, obviously. They also don't mention what kind of exposure controls you have. Can you make a 30 second exposure with it? 1/4000th? Can you shoot stills at all or do you have to pull a frame from video? If so, can you shoot stills tethered? I doubt it. Can you even use flash with it? Too many things are missing to make this a serious stills tool. A bit like oohing and aahing over a Canon 5Dii as a video camera - it can pull off some neat tricks but it's fairly limited.
    Thierry Hagenauer
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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    One thing that will get me excited is if such an image could be created in the same way the little Sony Sweep Panoramic cameras do it, which I don't believe the RED can....

    Perhaps that's what their Alchemy thing does?

    If you have to shoot many 14MP stills and stitch them, or moreover if you shoot video and then have to manually pick the frames for stitching then I'd rather use a good DSLR or an MF or a tech camera with a high-res DB.

    An IQ180 using sensor+ (20MP @800iso) and a good WA lens (Canon 24 TS/E-II? Rodenstock 23mm?) will probably only need 3 horizontal panned frames to yield a bigger file and possibly better IQ at a fraction of the time: You'll be doing it tethered and have the 3 frames stitched in PS as you go...nothing fancy and plenty of time left to go downstairs and enjoy the buffet or the casino...

    But this is all theory and will likely stay there...in true RED style....

    Yair

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    I read the thread about the Epic being "Better than and IQ180" over breakfast yesterday. It was quite some time before I could pick myself off the floor following the fit of uncontrollable laughter that ensued.
    Why bother making claims like this without giving us some specifics about what criteria the claim is based on? Graham Mitchell is spot-on in his earlier post.
    I am absolutely certain the Red is better than the Iq180 at shooting MOTION. On any stills related claims, I'd like to see some specifics. This kind of headline-grabbing marketing stunt is not at all helpful. I'm happy to stick with my "inferior" IQ180 and Aptus 12 backs on my Alpa STC, shooting through the Coke-bottle optics of a Rodenstock 23HR.
    I'm not sure how I'm going to face the awful raw files, now that I've seen the amazing Red......
    {walks off shaking head and muttering}
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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?



    +1

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    I read the thread about the Epic being "Better than and IQ180" over breakfast yesterday. It was quite some time before I could pick myself off the floor following the fit of uncontrollable laughter that ensued.
    Why bother making claims like this without giving us some specifics about what criteria the claim is based on? Graham Mitchell is spot-on in his earlier post.
    I am absolutely certain the Red is better than the Iq180 at shooting MOTION. On any stills related claims, I'd like to see some specifics. This kind of headline-grabbing marketing stunt is not at all helpful. I'm happy to stick with my "inferior" IQ180 and Aptus 12 backs on my Alpa STC, shooting through the Coke-bottle optics of a Rodenstock 23HR.
    I'm not sure how I'm going to face the awful raw files, now that I've seen the amazing Red......
    {walks off shaking head and muttering}
    Thierry Hagenauer
    [email protected]

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    +2

    Misleading info really bugs me. I'm sure RED is great for its intended purpose but over inflating a product leads people in the wrong direction.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    I don't do photography to "get the shot," although I do that. I do photography for the insights and pleasure it gives me. So I am sure I could get a RED or a Lytro camera and they will take all the pictures I need or all the points of focus in any scene, but simply playing editor/art director is not why I am behind a camera.

    I think the development in camera technology is great. It really presents new options for photographers. But the single most important element in making great images is not the gear (don't shoot the messenger). Neither is it resolving power. And so while these innovative companies keep supply tools for us, they are just tools. If the carpenter is lousy, you are not going to end up with a well-made house no matter how good the hammer is.

    BTW, I stitch 40 MP images together into panos and print them up to 12 feet. I am not sure what good more resolution is going to do for me when most of the folks looking at the images can't see or notice the all the detail in them now.

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Totally alternate world. <snip> The thought process for creating motion is so different ... and post is a whole other kettle of fish.
    Yup.

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Wow, $25,000 for a Red One!

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by wentbackward View Post
    Wow, $25,000 for a Red One!
    Financially, that is a tip of the iceberg

    -Marc

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    We'll I've registered on the reduser forum....I've got a few questions to ask about that image although I'm not holding my breath for straightforward answers...

    You have to wait for admin's approval...will see how it goes:-)
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    is Russell James member here..? I'd like to here his opinion on it..

    that image looks good.. obviously, it can be done with almost any camera.. but I guess the point is not with any FILM Camera..

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JSK Rangefinder View Post
    .. but I guess the point is not with any FILM Camera..
    So I could not use a large-format film camera (or any film camera), scan and stitch the frames? Technology is not a replacement for imagination and creativity of the photographer.

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    So I could not use a large-format film camera (or any film camera), scan and stitch the frames? Technology is not a replacement for imagination and creativity of the photographer.
    I mean FILM in terms of MOTION Cameras.. since RED is obviously motion camera..

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Can we then consider a 5DMkII or a D7000 to be motion cameras? Can they not produce a similar (or better) result from a set of stitched still frames?

    Like I said if the EPIC can do a sweep+pan stitch like to Sony P&S then I'll be really excited, otherwise...
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Can we then consider a 5DMkII or a D7000 to be motion cameras? Can they not produce a similar (or better) result from a set of stitched still frames?

    Like I said if the EPIC can do a sweep+pan stitch like to Sony P&S then I'll be really excited, otherwise...

    I think amount and the assortment of work done with 5DMkII worldwide speak for itself..

    However, I don't consider 5DMkII nor D7000 as motion cameras.. to me, they are simply photo cameras with ability to shoot video and even then once 5DMkII is setup to shoot any JOB/serious video 5DMkII doesn't appear to look like 5DMkII anymore, it looks more like 5DMkII on STEROIDS.. Software does the rest in terms of the look, feel, etc..

    with RED.. their prime focus is on Motion with ability to have/pick top quality stills.. Ergonomically even the smallest Red camera is still heavy, bulky camera once it's up and running.. I can't imagine members here walking alone with it trying to setup a shot.. perhaps ART/Architecture/etc. obviously, it can be done but its painful process as far as I am concerned..


    5DMkII
    ______ Top Quality Stills
    ______ so & so Video
    ______ Cheap compared to RED
    ______ easy to handle if not on steroids )

    VS.

    RED
    ______ Top Quality Video
    ______ Top Quality Stills
    ______ Fortune compared to 5DMkII
    ______ steroids required )

    so there alone you have substantial difference..

    personally, I support the idea of our industry moving into both directions as far as the same package can do both.. but for now, I strongly prefer separate cameras for each job..

    at the end of the day.. the point is who can produce better image not a bigger one..

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    Re: RED Epic - better than the IQ180 ?

    Sorry for the bump, but since it's a thread about shooting panos with a Red Epic...





    (Just happened to have the two together in the same room. Don't worry - I'll be shooting panos with the P65+ when it arrives!)

    /edit

    Just to address this:

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    One thing that will get me excited is if such an image could be created in the same way the little Sony Sweep Panoramic cameras do it, which I don't believe the RED can....

    Perhaps that's what their Alchemy thing does?

    If you have to shoot many 14MP stills and stitch them, or moreover if you shoot video and then have to manually pick the frames for stitching then I'd rather use a good DSLR or an MF or a tech camera with a high-res DB.

    <snip>

    Yair
    Current pano software can actually do the former - it can take a video feed, and then stitch from individual video frames. Haven't tried this with footage from an Epic yet, but hope to try it out in the next month or so.

    What you can do is set the Epic on 1fps, and then program your pano head (VR Drive in this case) to pan at the right speed so that the Epic is firing at the right time to give you overlapping shots.

    In the test pano that we shot with this rig last week though, we just left the Epic running at 24fps, and then extracted a shot from each position that the head landed in. End result was just short of a gigapixel.

    What I will say is that the quality of the still images from the Red was very, very impressive indeed. I look forward to doing a comparative test between it and the P65+ hopefully in the 2nd quarter of the year. I will be astonished if the Red beats the PhaseOne though.

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