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Phase One LS vs Leica S glass comparisons

David K

Workshop Member
I think the merits of the different systems have been well expressed in this thread. In my experience those that have bought into the S2 system are thrilled with it and are convinced that they made the right choice. Speaking for myself (but I suspect it's true of many others) the S2 was love at first sight. After an hour of handling this camera I absolutely, positively knew it was the right one for me. The only reservations that I had related to non camera/lens issues. If sales did not meet expectations would Leica drop the S2 (like the R system) and leave me with another orphaned kit? Would the lens lineup be forthcoming in a reasonable time frame? Would Leica work diligently on firmware improvements...would Adobe push forward with better conversions in LR? Would those that bought into the S system change their minds and dump their cameras...driving prices down? It was a leap of faith when I bought into the S system but all of those questions have been resolved to my satisfaction. I think it's an easier decision to make now than it was a year ago with those variables off the table. But I would still urge any prospective buyer of the S system to make sure that the lenses he wants are available. Demand has outstripped supply for quite some time now. With regard to whether the kit is worth the cost...that's a very individual decision. I, for one, am less concerned with the cost of the gear than I am with how much I would lose if I sold it.
One final thought for the OP to consider. If, after taking a test drive with the S2, you are still on the fence about which way to go...stick with what you have.
 

MFCurious

New member
One final thought for the OP to consider. If, after taking a test drive with the S2, you are still on the fence about which way to go...stick with what you have.
David: Thanks - that's a given. ;) I wouldn't have considered the S2 up until now when it appears at least that Leica have the lens coverage I've been looking for and it's no longer a beta product either. Lens supply obviously is the kicker. I've been through that not particularly enjoyable situation many times with my M gear too.

The image pipeline seems a lot better sorted now than a year ago too - it would be interesting for Guy & Jack to revisit the S2 review if given the opportunity now that the raw conversion seems to be improved, from what I understand at least.

Stuart: Thanks for the write up. Very helpful also!

I guess this has morphed more into the "why S2" thread but that's interesting also (to me at least). As far as the glass is concerned, I'm just going to have to try it - it is important to me that it isn't simply optimized for portraiture, fashion etc as I want something for use primarily for travel/landscape shooting.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
The S2 is a great camera. I really like the integrated body/sensor design in MFD. I have a Phase back, but it is rather clunky. I use a Pentax 645D for my travel/landscape/documentary work. I can imagine the S2, which is too rich for my blood, would be a great camera for that. Especially with the optics being so fast and very good wide open.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
* with all due respect to everyone - the definition of what is good and what is bad and what is better or best - often moves to issues that are largely irrelevant to making a nice photograph.

I think Stuart's posted image of the yellow machine with Aurora in backgroundis interesting - Stuart says look how well highlihghts are held - my reaction?

Well I thought wow what a different image - never noticed the highlights or not- who knows a bit of blown highlight may have lifted the image? How important is it - versus the distortion in teh vertical of the container ? I mean really all this techno stuff is interesting - up to a point - then it is guys talking **** about their gear referencing techno stuff that has very littel to do with making a great shot.

Regarding technical faults with lenses- when does a fault become an effect that is used with purpose to produce a result?

it is all about the photographer.

Pete
 

Shashin

Well-known member
- versus the distortion in the vertical of the container ?
That is not distortion. That is what happens when you tilt your image plane back--linear perspective is another term for it or keystoning.

No doubt the photographer is going to be the prime force in good imagery, but equipment is not insignificant. And the OP is trying to get a handle on how the particular equipment performs. Stewart is just putting in his experience. I also give him credit to try to illustrate what he is talking about. I am sure the OP is experienced enough to put the sample in, no pun intended, perspective.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Thanks for Shashin - that however I think you may have missed my point..

IF you were looking at that scene with your eyes and tilted your head back you would still see verticals as verticals - because you have this clever device called a brain that compensates for all sorts of oracular effects. SO frommy eye's' poitn of view the shot has certian 'distortions' - my eye cares very little about the limitations of optics and the way teh optic will work relative to a plane of focus - when itcomes to looking at a photograph- all I focus on is - the photograph.

The problem / challenge for any photographer concerned with thses issues for any particular shot - is to try and manage the limitations of physics by various forms of compensatory interventions - in basic terms - through the use of at the margin better optics , movement or otherwise.

However - there is no tick list of tools or approaches employed that will make a good photograph - any two competent photographers will in fact come away with any number of different shots from exactly the same scene. In fact most often the very limitaitons of a lens - will be employed by a photographer consciously to effect.

So that why I say there is no such thing as a bad lens.

Everyone says "of course" it is the photographer" - but really most don't understand what this means - is is far easier to talk techno babble than to make a decent shot.

S2 lenses are indeeed corected much better than many of their comparative peer lenses for this and that and the other thing - if you need the marginal differences then pay up for the marginal 'betterness'.

However these are all marginal differences and say nothing about the lenses in use - that is all about the photographer.

The elephant in the room is always the notion that the ( imaginary) ' best ' will make a difference - sometimes it may - mostly it makes none.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Keith - the problem with saying it is the photographer - is that there is little 'apparent' content in the statement.

We all know it is true - especially when referenced to a body of work. however this doesn't answer specifics (which may be of interest in any particular situaiton ) and everyone can have an opinion or reference an expert reviewer or a set of graphs - published by a manufacturer - or use personal language to attempt to describe how this lens is like that lens and not like the other lens..

for example: If someone wishes to use ALL the utility provided for by the form factor of the S2 camera - then the only choice one has is to purchase and use S2 lenses.

the combination of choices and compromises and utilities in making thee decisions is indeed quite voluminous and giventhe money involved a considerationthat any rational person shoudl take a long a hard study about..

However these choices are very different for experienced phtograhers liek yourself - you know what you like to shoot and how you liekto shoot it - and hav eeveloped your own experienced based decisions and solutions - for teh work you do.

So yes in your case it IS and always WAS - the photographer. To get to that state of grace however requires a lot of investment in time and money and thinking. - particularly thinking.
 

peterv

New member
I was wondering if anyone has qualitatively compared the Phase LS 55/80/110/150 against the equivalent S lenses?
Michael Reichman tried to answer your question here:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/s2.shtml

...Choosing between the Phase One 645DF with P40+ and 80mm Schneider LS lens, and the Leica S2 with 70mm lens is a case on "nano-pixel peeping". That's what we ended up calling it. Not "micro" pixel peeping, but "nano"pixel peeping. Yes, there were differences, but they were so small as to be inconsequential – not only barely visible on-screen at 100%, but even then subject to discussion. Image aspects examined included fringing, vignetting, blooming, moire, and other possible digital anomalies. Nothing untoward was found in either camera above the nano pixel-peeping level...

Thanks for starting this interesting thread.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Michael Reichman tried to answer your question here:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/s2.shtml

...Choosing between the Phase One 645DF with P40+ and 80mm Schneider LS lens, and the Leica S2 with 70mm lens is a case on "nano-pixel peeping". That's what we ended up calling it. Not "micro" pixel peeping, but "nano"pixel peeping. Yes, there were differences, but they were so small as to be inconsequential – not only barely visible on-screen at 100%, but even then subject to discussion. Image aspects examined included fringing, vignetting, blooming, moire, and other possible digital anomalies. Nothing untoward was found in either camera above the nano pixel-peeping level...

Thanks for starting this interesting thread.
This is a perfect example of what Peter is talking about I think. Nano differences in select and often quoted techno benchmarks are only valid for bragging rights and offer little in adding any distinguishing attributes to the photographers work.

I recall the when the Mamiya sales people kept trying to get me to trade my Contax 645 by showing me definitive proof with charts and such showing their lenses to be technically superior. But I never bought any of it because the Zeiss/Contax opiics were "creatively" in a league of their own with characteristics I wanted and the Mamiya's did not offer.

I was sold into the H system for two simple reasons, the AF was better and the 100/2.2 lens ... anything more than that was gravy.

The S2 is a weather proofed (i.e., spilled Coke proof, wedding cake icing proof, sloshed beer proof, blowing fine beach sand proof, sudden tropical downpour proof, etc. ... all of which has happened to me) ... it's no brainer camera to use with a battery that never seems to run out, and is super easy to take with compared to any MFD. It has a dual card parallel capture insurance against catastrophic card failure (I went 7 years without a card failure and it just happened to me, Rescue Pro Deluxe didn't work, and Rescue Pro tech service are baffled by it). Net is that I shoot more in more places because it promotes that. Are the lenses better? The point is none of them are worst ... and they are all fast aperture, optimized to be super-performers wide open ... just how I "creatively" shoot.

So, it doesn't make me a better photographer, it fits my creative approach in a number of ways, and doesn't limit any expansion I try to accomplish. It just makes it a bit easier for me to be a better photographer which is my job, not a camera's.

-Marc
 

KeithL

Well-known member
Keith - the problem with saying it is the photographer - is that there is little 'apparent' content in the statement.
Agreed, it is a glib statement.

So yes in your case it IS and always WAS - the photographer. To get to that state of grace however requires a lot of investment in time and money and thinking. - particularly thinking.
True, but my contention is that for the inexperienced, or for those trying to find direction, purpose and commitment - call it what you will - their time, money and thinking would be best spent on anything other than equipment.

All too often I see folk becoming fixated on *gear* - gosh, I hate that term - at an early stage in their development and this stays with them for the rest of their lives. It becomes the raison d'etre for their interest. If this time, money, thinking and angst were channelled into their development as creative individuals and directly into their images they'd be all the better image makers for it.

Really, the differences between all of these remarkable cameras and the differences they can make to the final output are minimal at best and can be considered as the icing on the cake rather than any kind of panacea, or, God forbid, driving force.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Agreed, it is a glib statement.



True, but my contention is that for the inexperienced, or for those trying to find direction, purpose and commitment - call it what you will - their time, money and thinking would be best spent on anything other than equipment.

All too often I see folk becoming fixated on *gear* - gosh, I hate that term - at an early stage in their development and this stays with them for the rest of their lives. It becomes the raison d'etre for their interest. If this time, money, thinking and angst were channelled into their development as creative individuals and directly into their images they'd be all the better image makers for it.

Really, the differences between all of these remarkable cameras and the differences they can make to the final output are minimal at best and can be considered as the icing on the cake rather than any kind of panacea, or, God forbid, driving force.
The trouble with the term "It's the photographer" is that it encompasses all sorts of photographers at all levels of application, motivation, skill and the subjective area of talent. Plus, unlike fine art painting which uses prehistoric tools that haven't changed much since cave paintings, photographic tools are science/industry based and changing constantly.

Probably the biggest driving force behind all of this is "purpose"... what is your personal reason for making photographs?

Broadly speaking, there are those who appreciate finely made things, and gain joy from just making them function without feeling they have to be the next great photographer, or even caring whether they have what it takes to do that. In a way, for them squeezing every last bit of potential ability from the "gear" IS a "driving force" and what they actually creatively produce with it, while not totally inconsequential, is secondary. Or there are those who find the doing more rewarding than the result, and trek out into the wilderness at 4AM to record some of that experience and relationship to nature. The result is proof they did it, and what the result looks like is measured against their own feelings about their surroundings at the time.

The highly subjective area of talent is a real snake pit to try and discuss, so a lot of folks gravitate to talking about the tech aspects, even to the degree of nano detail. Or people gravitate to the like minded, and laud the efforts of others as measured against their own participation in the same type of shooting. The result need not be original, just well done ... even flowers, puppies and the lane where they live are often the subject matter. They strive for beauty and mastery of the equipment, not some afore thought purposeful statement.

The other aspect of "purpose" is having a creative intent ... like an artist's intent that's common in fine art. Steve McCurry not only has native talent and acquired skill, he has purpose when shooting for NatGo ... ranging all the way to those like Cindy Sherman who uses photography with a social purpose in-mind going in ... like challenging cultural stereotypes, or addressing social concerns. For some talented individuals, photography becomes an extension of their personality and personal spin on society ... like the ironic, even absurd candids of everyday life from Elliot Erwitt ... or the personally infected dark side of humanity from Ralph Eugene Meatyard or Diane Arbus.

In other areas like advertising photography, fashion, industrial work, or even portrait and wedding photography, the purpose is provided, and the challenge is to approach the stated purpose with a fresh view or take on the imagery ... which defines the level of creative talent of each individual photographer. Only once in a blue moon do these works transcend their stated purpose to become iconic imagery that extends beyond their original purpose ... like Andy Warhol's artistic exploitation of advertising and celebrity imagery that took him from ad layout guy, to an internationally recognized artist.

So, IMO, it is NOT cut and dry ... and things like how the Phase One IQ backs work and are powered become MAJOR factors in selecting equipment for certain applications, where for others it is far less meaningful and something like the S2 fits their purpose far more meaningfully.

Also, the choices of types of equipment that aid in forming one's vision can be instrumental. I still contend that a rangefinder is more focused on content because of it's form than are other choices, and for people like Shelby Lewis, who decided to slow down and get more deliberate, a big ol' RZPro-II became his choice of photographic weapon at this stage of his trek.

I think most people can identify what they are about photographically ... it's usually associated with other work they like or want to emulate and/or exceed ... be it the physical mastery, experiential camaraderie, just get a job done well, or to set the world on fire with their creativity.

-Marc
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I agree - very astute observations. I'm sure that we all fit into those categories somewhere, or at least I know that I do!
 
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PeterA

Well-known member
Yes a great expansion on the idea of purpose and motivation by Marc ! - which underlines the importance of knowing what each person's perspective(s) is/are when reading threads like this.
 
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