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Thread: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

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    Super Duper
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    how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    As some of you might know I switched my MF system from Hy6 to a S2 (I loved both systems but couldnt justify to own both).
    I still own my Artech though and have been thinking of getting a lower prices used digital back just for the Artech.
    Lets say I did not need more than 22MP resolution regarding printing - do you think a 22MP back would work ok for a Tech camera?
    Or would you avoid 22MP backs due to moiree (or for any other reasons?)
    I really only would use it occasionally, thats why I dont want spend too muc money.
    My feeling says I should rather go with 33MP (specially because 22MP is so far away from the 37 of My S2 so I might allways feel that I might miss something with "just" 22MP)
    Thank you !
    Last edited by Paratom; 4th December 2011 at 05:51.

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    A 22MP with a 4:3 aspect ratio for those occasional shoots when either shift, tilt, swing or stitching are required will give you results that your S2 can't give IMO

    A 33MP will push it a bit further
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Re: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    I use me Leaf 54s (22mp) on sliding pano adapter on back of Linhof every now and then. Its a great combination with all the movements, once you get over the fear of putting stitched stuff together.

    I am always tempted to get real stitching back (one that does 4 positions, but i am not sure if 1.1 crop from 645 will actually do overlapping bits that required for good merging work.

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    Re: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    I use a P25+ on a Linhof 679c. It is a very nice setup. The images are beautiful. I have not had any moire problems and I shot a catalog of old books with block prints and etching with it. No micro lenses on the P25+, but LCC is important.

    I also shoot a 40MP Pentax 645D. I do not find the pixel difference between the two significant as far as the image quality--I am really talking about when they are printed. The difference in resolution (the linear measurement like lines/mm) is only 30% between 22MP and 37MP. Still, 33MP is closer.

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    Re: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    I am an architectural photographer and until 18 months ago was shooting with a P25 on Horseman SW-DII. This combo worked superbly for me for 6 years and is currently serving its new owner well.
    The only time I had moire issues was with particularly fine patterns in fabric, and this was rare. Never ever had it even with fine details in buildings.
    I would have no hesitation using a 22MP back or higher for what you describe, though as Yair points out, a 33 is better. Also, there are some awesome deals out there on used P45+ backs.
    Cheers,
    Last edited by goesbang; 4th December 2011 at 20:48.
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    Re: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    damn.. and when i was 18 months of age i didnt even get to touch any camera.. MF or overwise..

    (sorry.. i couldnt resist )

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    Re: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    I use an Aptus 22 for architecture and it is a moire machine. I suppose it depends on the architecture prevalent in your country, but I am constantly finding moire in mesh-like metal features (balconies and fences) and in the metal blinds and shutters architects are currently fond of using here. In many cases the moire is insoluble.
    For landscapes it is lovely.

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    Re: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    Thank you! sounds promising. Even though the Artec might be more of a Architecture camera I would use it more for landscape but occasionally also for architecture stuff or subjects where moiree could appear.
    Tom

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    Re: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    The joy of a tech camera for non-moving subject is that you can use lower resolution backs and stitch several shots within the continuous image circle.

    A nine-panel stitch (15mm frame overlap) with the warrantied $5k Aptus 22 (which includes the on-board battery and CF card for easy use on a tripod)
    which is "only" 22 megapixels using the Schneider 60mm XL lens would create a 110 megapixel final image with the same "wideness" as a 5DII with a 15mm. No geometric remapping or loss of composition.

    As noted moire with the older backs sporting large 12 and 9 micron pixels can be pretty bad. However moire is much more frequent with man-made objects (especially fabric) than in nature. In nature it's pretty rare to see moire and when you do it's usually only color moire which is pretty easy for software to handle, as opposed to pattern moire which is not easy to deal with at all.

    Older backs typically don't do long exposure as well as newer backs (though obviously this varies depending on which older back and which newer back you're talking about as a Phase One P45 non plus still outperforms nearly all current digital backs in long exposure). Older backs typically don't do high ISO as well as newer backs.

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    Re: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Thank you! sounds promising. Even though the Artec might be more of a Architecture camera I would use it more for landscape but occasionally also for architecture stuff or subjects where moiree could appear.
    Tom
    Tom I think if you can find (and if you can afford/ justify) an AFi-II 7 you will have a very competent package that is also a joy to use with the rotating sensor and even more with the tilt-screen

    Steven Kornreich (AKA Kuau) shoots on an arTec with an AFi-II 7 and also Rainer Viertlböck's now uses an AFi-II 10 on his arTec

    A Christmas gift maybe?
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Re: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Tom I think if you can find (and if you can afford/ justify) an AFi-II 7 you will have a very competent package that is also a joy to use with the rotating sensor and even more with the tilt-screen

    Steven Kornreich (AKA Kuau) shoots on an arTec with an AFi-II 7 and also Rainer Viertlböck's now uses an AFi-II 10 on his arTec

    A Christmas gift maybe?
    Thank you Yair. The AFI7II would be kind of my first choice if price was no factor.
    Right now I am looking more into a Sinar back which can be had for lower prices. I know its an older generation but its a nice sensor.

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    Re: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    I am quite familiar with my Aptus II 5 by now after using it almost daily since bought new in August.
    I do paid assignments in architecture and give workshops in landscape photography. Out in nature the Aptus works very well and it is not very often I can complain about raw file information.
    However, I am scratching my head at times with the architecture assignments. I find DR to be inferior to what I saw with my previous cameras (Canon 1Ds3 and Leica M9) and forces me to shoot atleast two, often three, exposures to blend. To recover data from shadows produces not satisfactory levels of noise and I blow highs quite easily. Exposuretimes above 10 seconds is also producing noise. This is not easy with architecture shots at dusk with the highest usable iso of 100 and a Schneider 35 XL which is 5.6 and needs to be stopped down to atleast 8 for sharpness and then on top a centrefilter that steals another 1,5 stops. Nooooot easy.

    I have not had a lot of problems concerning moire, yes I have seen it occasionally, but not really a problem. But, last weekend I did two large villas in Marbella and I am now struggling with heavy moire on one image out of three.

    To summarize, for landscapes I would happily choose the Aptus II 5 again, especially thinking of the extraordinary value for money it gives you.
    I am not so sure about my architecture photography....I would like a higher base iso, better noise handling, better longer exposures and no moire.
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    Re: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    Quote Originally Posted by danlindberg View Post
    I am quite familiar with my Aptus II 5 by now after using it almost daily since bought new in August.
    I do paid assignments in architecture and give workshops in landscape photography. Out in nature the Aptus works very well and it is not very often I can complain about raw file information.
    However, I am scratching my head at times with the architecture assignments. I find DR to be inferior to what I saw with my previous cameras (Canon 1Ds3 and Leica M9) and forces me to shoot atleast two, often three, exposures to blend. To recover data from shadows produces not satisfactory levels of noise and I blow highs quite easily. Exposuretimes above 10 seconds is also producing noise. This is not easy with architecture shots at dusk with the highest usable iso of 100 and a Schneider 35 XL which is 5.6 and needs to be stopped down to atleast 8 for sharpness and then on top a centrefilter that steals another 1,5 stops. Nooooot easy.

    I have not had a lot of problems concerning moire, yes I have seen it occasionally, but not really a problem. But, last weekend I did two large villas in Marbella and I am now struggling with heavy moire on one image out of three.

    To summarize, for landscapes I would happily choose the Aptus II 5 again, especially thinking of the extraordinary value for money it gives you.
    I am not so sure about my architecture photography....I would like a higher base iso, better noise handling, better longer exposures and no moire.
    Thank you for the information! I am kind of surprized of the behaviour regarding DR.

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    Re: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Tom I think if you can find (and if you can afford/ justify) an AFi-II 7 you will have a very competent package that is also a joy to use with the rotating sensor and even more with the tilt-screen

    Steven Kornreich (AKA Kuau) shoots on an arTec with an AFi-II 7 and also Rainer Viertlböck's now uses an AFi-II 10 on his arTec

    A Christmas gift maybe?
    Leaf should really make the AFi-II 7 available again...

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    Re: how good do older dig. backs work on tech cams?

    Yair, do you have some idea of what an Aptus-II 7 might cost second-hand/refurbished from a good European dealer?
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