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Which back for architecture/interiors?

carstenw

carstenw

Active member
The iPhone lens doesn't need to be of Rodenstock quality. When you stitch, the lens qualities are reduced in importance.

Anyway, Stitching up/down/left/right is very different than stitching many times to get the same resolution and dynamic range. I doubt many people would want to take that route. One of the perks of getting older and having a reasonable career (whether in photography or not) is the ability to buy nice equipment for specific uses, regardless of what lower-end equipment can do when pushed to extremes.

Secondly, time is money and using an iPhone for things like this is much more time-consuming.

I think that phones with cameras as good as the iPhone 4S and similar Android phones will probably take a good chunk out of the low-end compact market, or maybe they have already, but all the old reasons for using a higher end system over a compact are still there. No one is going to sell their DSLR for an iPhone, except a couple of extreme bloggers.
 
Stefan Steib

Stefan Steib

Active member
Hi Carsten

actually I am not thinking about iPhones.This is of course not (yet!) practical. I only say Nex 7. There is this sweep panoramic mode that produces 52 Mpix images in some seconds- IN CAMERA PROCESSING ! This can be used in Landscape AND Portrait mode and is a as easy as it can be. see here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/SonyListens#p/search/0/HPV6ZIgzLBM

making 3 of these panoramic rows and stitch them (with photoshop) will give you up to 260 degrees of image angle with a file size of 150 Mpix aka 450 Mbyte. Do this on 200mm (it´s a 400 on the Sony) and you will get something like 80 degrees with that resolution.

I guess this counts as serious. And - will take not more than some minutes from taking the image to the finished file.

This makes me very thoughtful and if I interpolate this into the future, I ask who will pay 40-50k € for a solution (e.g.IQ180+AlpaSTC+Rodie23mm) that actually has only half of that resolution and a fraction of that image angle , not to speak of versatility ? The Nex 7 body costs 1250 € put an 18-200 for 799€ and a good tripod and a very good motor pano into this package = about 5000 €.

Plus- the Sony is capable of many other marvellous things - full HD Video ,14 images a second, low light mode (with full resolution...) etc.pp. see here some links:

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial] http://www.youtube.com/user/SonyListens#p/a
see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzFErFDOURk
http://www.youtube.com/user/SonyListens#p/u/33/JulyTvLVnBY

And some videos from [/FONT]Yuri Afanasiev from Russia
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BOVtX4G4MY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-4_oDyblh4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfL3_dlo7Rs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnFSkGBe4QA&feature=related

http://www.photoru.ru/page.php?vrub=eqipment&vparid=0&vid=145&lang=eng[/FONT]

Maybe this little Camera is the best "back" today ?

regards
Stefan
 
yaya

yaya

Active member
There was a thread on LuLa a few weeks ago about the Vegas panoramic image that was produced with the RED Epic

I tried asking some questions (on LuLa and also on the RED forum) about the method used and never got any meaningful answer...

I agree with Stefan, if the sweep pano method can be utilised easily and produce a large RAW file or some other form of lossless data (which I assume is not possible yet) then this can open up some new possibilities for certain applications.
Still the issues of a small sensor vs a big sensor and the relation to DOF remain I believe
 
Stefan Steib

Stefan Steib

Active member
Hi Yair

of course "at the moment" we are just at the beginning of this technology. The camera and photoindustry as a whole need to understand that there is a TOTAL paradigm change of how photographic equipment is used. Until today there only was a mimicing of analogue processes mostly. It was tried to simulate the part of the film by a sensor. This works to a certain extent but has come to an end now.(we were speaking about this already, diffraction, price, mechanical tolerances, etc.pp). what happens now is that we are starting to understand that Digital opens a NEW and intelligent way to use photographic technology for never before achieved and even dreamed of purposes. For this we need to analyze what we already have and then use it fully - with software, computer/processing hardware and most of all connecting and communicate it.

just one more link - because we are talking about architecture here originally - I think this is a killer image - look at it (in full screen mode) and then try to understand what really happens there:

http://www.xrez.com/gallerypano/Gigapixel%20Flash/CHI12_preview.txt.php

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
 
yaya

yaya

Active member
Have a look at these guys I think that their stitch engine and viewing implementation are quite good

(the XRez is quite buggy, zoom out and pan and you start seeing errors and get error messages in the browser)

Back to the topic, I think that there is still a lot to be said and to be liked about the process of creating an image with a digital back on a tech/ view camera and I don't think we have seen the end of it yet, far from it actually....

I now have an AFi-II 12 back which is glued to my Arca-Swiss Rm2D; Rotating sensor, tilt screen, One lens (SK 43mm), all calibration files loaded to the cards, a small tripod with a ball head

Light, simple and fun to use with image quality that is really tough to beat...
 
Stefan Steib

Stefan Steib

Active member
Hi Yair

I think the german´s site images are much smaller. I have a 50 Mbit line here and this is really an eyepopper on the XRes site images.

You are right about the actual equipment up to 80 Mpix. It´s working.
Also the Hasselblad H4D200MS is working(which is somehow a proof of what I said about the Nex7).
I am also working hard to get these backs fully used.
But I doubt there will be ever 120Mpix or even higher resolving single shot backs.
Not because it is not possible to get there somehow technically.
But because of the market and the demand for it.

So what is the plan for a future in 3-5 years ?

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
 
carstenw

carstenw

Active member
I think the technology is not there yet to make sure that verticals and horizontals are rendered properly in all parts of the moving-stitch, so for landscape applications, this might work, when only 1 row is needed. For multi-row I doubt it works, and for multi-exposure (HDR, focus stacking) applications, I also doubt it works.

A good pano head and a DSLR would do the job, but this is the case in almost all areas, yet people still invest in MF systems, so I guess there is nothing new here.
 
Stefan Steib

Stefan Steib

Active member
Hi Carsten

we will know about the highresolution images exactly in January when the Nex7 will be delivered in numbers.
until now you can already see Nex 3 and Nex5 images on Flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarmo888/5474203668/lightbox/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarmo888/5428232740/lightbox/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/omargurnah/4746330878/lightbox/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonmurphy/5729974853/lightbox/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/faizal-omar/4804531478/lightbox/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/naboria/5131488167/lightbox/

these all show a significant distortion, but I am pretty sure this can be
eliminated by a lens profile, in Photoshop, DXO or Capture One.

As we may agree (I hope ;-) this is still new, but people will find a way to deal with this very fast. This may even become a threat for Canon´s 17 and 24mm TSE´s and definitely for longer focal lenght TS lenses.

A tilting head (using the center of the front lens as a nodal point of the lens) and a Zoom may replace about any TS lenses very soon.

The IQ Backs already have a straightening function built in, be asured that this can be easily in a Nex 10 with a full format 24x36 chip with 40 Mpix.

Add this all up and the image clears !

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Stefan Steib said:
A tilting head (using the center of the front lens as a nodal point of the lens) and a Zoom may replace about any TS lenses very soon.
Click to expand...
Have you tried it ("tilting head")? Simple enough experiment to understand what would be required.
 
stephengilbert

stephengilbert

Active member
Which back for architecture? Let's hijack the thread and suggest using an iPhone some day. Good idea: who cares what the initial quest was? Does this really have anything to do with "medium format systems and digital backs?"
 
Stefan Steib

Stefan Steib

Active member
Hi Vivek

I will, my Nex 7 is already ordered.

Overall I think the knowhow is already there (as xrez proofs), the Panorama people have already done tremendous work on this. It may take another 1-2 years before standard software packages will suport this kind of work , but there is already PTGui, AutopanoGiga and to some extent also Photoshop.
The distortions get less the more shots you do and the longer the focal length is. I believe this is already used by sony doing 10 shots for this function in the Nex 7.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
 
V

Vivek

Guest
stephengilbert said:
Which back for architecture? Let's hijack the thread and suggest using an iPhone some day. Good idea: who cares what the initial quest was? Does this really have anything to do with "medium format systems and digital backs?"
Click to expand...
Nebulous random thoughts do not have any boundaries. :)
 
Stefan Steib

Stefan Steib

Active member
Stephen

I don´t know how you define architecture and especially interiors, but what I have learned is that wide is never wide enough for this.
A solution in the 52Mpix and up to 260 degrees of image angle range definitely competes with MF specs.

and Vivek - I think I am absolutely centered on what the problem is.
Even if some people simply don´t want to hear it. Why - I have no idea.
But thank you for confirming that I try to cross boundaries.

greetings from Munich
Stefan
 
A

AlexLF

Well-known member
To me this multishot technique is something I'd really want to avoid. Why is this going to be better/faster/more comfortable than using big sensor back? I just can't find the answer. It's probably fine for architecture but what about other genres? You see, it's very limiting technology then.
 
Stefan Steib

Stefan Steib

Active member
Hi Alex

I think it depends on your Work. If you need plenty of large images it makes a lot of sense to avoid postprocessing, buy a back as big as necessary, otherwise this can be additional hours (today) if you want to stitch with standard cameras.

On the other hand if you need these image sizes only once in a while , it´s a bit like to drive shopping into the city with a 70 ton truck every day instead of using the Metro or a small e-car which can park everywhere.

And last but not least - the difference may be a whopping 45000 € still in your pockets or not running as a leasing or depth on your bank.

For many people THATS definitely an argument.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
 
A

AlexLF

Well-known member
I guess that's no different from any other aspect in life - you have to pay to get higher level of comfort (or quality).
 
carstenw

carstenw

Active member
I would pose a challenge for you, Stefan: pick some low-end camera of your choice, and use it to get medium format quality via stitching and HDR techniques. Post the results so we can judge the effort. That is more interesting than an untested idea.

In my experience, stitching and HDR techniques benefit from good camera equipment just like other types of shots. The less stitching and the less exposures, the better, meaning that high dynamic range high resolution backs are still a better starting point.
 
carstenw

carstenw

Active member
Please look at the sky and tell me again that this is medium format quality. The pixel quality is also not great, nor is the lens qualities (look at that CA), they would need to downres by at least a factor of 2-4x before getting anywhere near the per-pixel quality of a good back. This is a straight stitch, there is nothing medium format about it other than high resolution.

My challenge stands. This is not about resolution, this is about the whole package: resolution, dynamic range, tonality, colour accuracy. If you cannot achieve those with a smaller camera, you are not competing.
 
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