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Thread: IQ Series and USB?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    IQ Series and USB?

    Did I miss a trick? Last I tried this didn't work - does it now? Might be time to invest in a new MacBook air...

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    I don't shoot tethered normally-----but I think the big change on the IQ series is the adoption of USB 3 ...

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    I don't shoot tethered normally-----but I think the big change on the IQ series is the adoption of USB 3 ...
    The port is there but afaik the firmware support isn't...

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Firmware update is still pending that will provide:
    - USB 3 (backwards compatible)
    - UDMA7 support
    - Control of DF custom functions from the IQ
    - Unified on/off (turn on the body and the back turns on as well)
    - Camera control when tethered (aperture/shutter)

    After that they will have delivered on everything they originally announced and can start to work on new/unannounced/additional features! :-) The IQ platform is a long term investment and I'm hoping for several features that would make MY life easier (as both a photographer and support agent). I would love:
    - comparison mode (similar to "compare varient" in Capture One)
    - metadata notation (e.g. entering a lens focal length when using a tech camera, similar to Aptus-II)
    - in-back LCC (similar to Aptus-II)
    - advanced camera controls (e.g. auto-bracketing, time-lapse)
    - hyperfocal focus assistance (e.g. an interface that scans and determines ideal hyperfocal placement for a given back/aperture/lens
    - improved live view workflow (e.g. body starts T exposure automatically when you engage live view from the back)

    To be clear this is just my personal laundry wish-list, not an insight into Phase's R+D labs. I hope maybe one or two will be implemented.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Thanks Doug,

    I got a marketing email today from Phase, 'Check out the world's most advanced tethered camera solution' which says pretty darn clearly

    "the series is also the first to feature a USB3 connection."

    I'm afraid that is simply mendacious. Sure, it has the connection, but putting a ferrari engine into Fred Flinstone's car wouldn't have made it any faster unless it was connected to the drivetrain.

    Very naughty of Phase, possibly illegal in some jurisdictions? Frankly they should not be stating this. It simply misleads people who don't own the back and confuses those who do!

    Not your fault at all, obviously, but I know you have a hotline to these guys!

    Best
    Tim

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    +1
    And at least you discovered that questionable marketing attitude before buying a Macbook Air, not me

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Macs do not support USB 3, to my knowledge. I pine for Firewire.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Macs do not support USB 3, to my knowledge. I pine for Firewire.
    USB 3 is backwards compatible to USB 2.

    True it's not as fast as native USB 3 would be, and is not even as fast as FW800. BUT for a system like an Air it would mean you can tether whereas without it you can not.

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Thanks Doug,

    I got a marketing email today from Phase, 'Check out the world's most advanced tethered camera solution' which says pretty darn clearly

    "the series is also the first to feature a USB3 connection."

    I'm afraid that is simply mendacious. Sure, it has the connection, but putting a ferrari engine into Fred Flinstone's car wouldn't have made it any faster unless it was connected to the drivetrain.

    Very naughty of Phase, possibly illegal in some jurisdictions? Frankly they should not be stating this. It simply misleads people who don't own the back and confuses those who do!

    Not your fault at all, obviously, but I know you have a hotline to these guys!
    That's why we prefer our customers to get their info from us rather than Phase One :-).

    Our website makes note of the USB not being ready yet.
    http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/iq/

    FYI: My reading is we are talking about weeks or months, not quarters or years.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    USB 3 is backwards compatible to USB 2.

    True it's not as fast as native USB 3 would be, and is not even as fast as FW800. BUT for a system like an Air it would mean you can tether whereas without it you can not.
    On the other hand, it would make little sense to pick up a new MacBook Air with the explicit purpose of pulling huge files down over super-slow lines.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    On the other hand, it would make little sense to pick up a new MacBook Air with the explicit purpose of pulling huge files down over super-slow lines.
    I think this overestimates or exaggerates the difference in real world speed between FW800 and USB2 for many applications. But we'll of course have to wait for real-world testing.

    My best guess is transmission time to the computer for an IQ160 file will be, at most, 1 second longer over USB2 than FW800. For landscape, architecture, interiors, still-life, product, scientific, and art reproduction applications that is essentially a non-factor.

    If you're shooting fashion, portrait or other faster moving subject matter the difference could be quite meaningful. However in these cases I would posit that a MacBookAir would not be the right choice in general because of it's overall lower specs.

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    On the other hand, it would make little sense to pick up a new MacBook Air with the explicit purpose of pulling huge files down over super-slow lines.
    If you'll pardon an intrusion from an undoubtedly-biased PC guy, it seems to me that sentence would be just as true if you put the period after "Air" and left off the rest.

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I think this overestimates or exaggerates the difference in real world speed between FW800 and USB2 for many applications. But we'll of course have to wait for real-world testing.
    FW400 is noticeably faster at transferring large files than USB2, in spite of theoretical maxes, and FW800 is twice as fast. I am so done with USB2, but given that I use Macs, I am left with FW800 or with my laptop, eSata.

    I am hoping that someone will develop a USB3 hub for Thunderbolt. That would solve the problem properly.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    FW400 is noticeably faster at transferring large files than USB2, in spite of theoretical maxes, and FW800 is twice as fast. I am so done with USB2, but given that I use Macs, I am left with FW800 or with my laptop, eSata.

    I am hoping that someone will develop a USB3 hub for Thunderbolt. That would solve the problem properly.
    The next gen of both Macs and PCs will use Ivy bridge, which will have native support for USB3 and thunderbolt, no need for the hub. But that will not solve the problem of USB being a host based bus which means the CPU controls the transfer. Capture Integration has a good article on their website. The problem with this is that when you shoot tethered running C1, applying "looks" and colour corrections or local adjustments things grind to a halt after a few frames. this is because the CPU is occupied. I don't even bother to shoot fashion with the 5DII (USB), but the Aptus II 5 (Firewire) will shoot nonstop all day without skipping a frame.

    Cheers,
    Jason.

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    An intelligent hub might solve that, if the hub could pull the data via USB3 and send it downstream in Thunderbolt format, whatever that is, keeping the CPU free for looks and whatnot.

    Anyway, in the past I have not been impressed by USB, and I lament the computer industry's short-sightedness in letting the superior Firewire protocol stagnate due to an insignificant cost difference. I find it sad that photographic equipment manufacturers are following that path. Even if photographers prefer Firewire, for obvious reasons, we have no way to express this in a purchase preference, and thus the switch by the photo industry is yet another unwanted nail in the Firewire coffin.

    If Canon, Phase One, et al would simply make two versions of each item, one with USB and one with Firewire, then we could vote with our dollars/euros to keep Firewire alive. Not going to happen, I realize, but one can dream.
    Carsten - Website

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Oh Carsten, stop being such a customer and buy what you're told to buy!


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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    FW400 is noticeably faster at transferring large files than USB2, in spite of theoretical maxes, and FW800 is twice as fast. I am so done with USB2, but given that I use Macs, I am left with FW800 or with my laptop, eSata.

    I am hoping that someone will develop a USB3 hub for Thunderbolt. That would solve the problem properly.
    O, I'm aware. I'm just saying for applications where you are taking one picture at a time that "noticeably faster" is likely to be around 1 second more.

    As outlined above by Jason and explained further in the article I wrote that he referenced (USB vs. Firewire Teterhing) the biggest difference comes in sustained shooting when you have larger total volumes of data you wish to transfer and you, ideally, want the computer to be calculating previews/styles/focus-masks etc. In that case FW beats the snot out of USB.

    From what I know of him (feel free to correct me!) the OP wants to have a MacBookAir for spot checking landscape captures where taking along a heavier/beefier/fw-enabled computer is not worthwhile but a very light USB-only computer might be.

    As to making a USB version of the IQ and FW version of the IQ it seems pretty clear that the cost of even the beefiest USB and FW components are a very small part of the final cost for an IQ and maintaining one product with both ports with it's inherent economies of scale and lower R+D / debugging / training / etc costs is the way to go. That is... assuming they can get the USB-enabling-firmware out the door reasonably soon!

    I'm also looking forward to the "backup" aspect of having a second port. I've seen three Phase units in the last three years where the back worked fine and could capture to card but the FW channel was busted. It's likely that all three could have kept trucking for their owners to get through their immediate needs (e.g. finish the shoot) if the P+ had had a separate USB channel.

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    O, I'm aware. I'm just saying for applications where you are taking one picture at a time that "noticeably faster" is likely to be around 1 second more.
    For this case you could certainly be right, as long as the USB connection is stable...

    As to making a USB version of the IQ and FW version of the IQ it seems pretty clear that the cost of even the beefiest USB and FW components are a very small part of the final cost for an IQ and maintaining one product with both ports with it's inherent economies of scale and lower R+D / debugging / training / etc costs is the way to go. That is... assuming they can get the USB-enabling-firmware out the door reasonably soon!
    Ah, the new backs have both!? Then it is my turn to apologize, I though P1 had switched to USB only, as Canon has done.
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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Ah, the new backs have both!? Then it is my turn to apologize, I though P1 had switched to USB only, as Canon has done.
    O heavens I understand your reaction then. That would downright piss me off.

    Once the firmware is released enabling it, and once the announced thunderbolt-to-FW adapters are shipping/tested you'll be able to use any IQ with:
    - USB2
    - USB3
    - FW400
    - FW800
    - Thunderbolt (via FW adapter)

    Phase One IQ Info

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I am hoping that someone will develop a USB3 hub for Thunderbolt. That would solve the problem properly.
    Sonnet have a Thunderbolt -> ExpressCard/34 module that would allow you to put in a USB 3, Firewire, eSata etc card into it.

    http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Sonne...ology/ECHOE34/
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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    I have an ExpressCard and it is incredibly unstable, freezing my Mac regularly when inserted or removed. I have reverted to FW800 which IMO is the most stable and reliable protocol.
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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I have an ExpressCard and it is incredibly unstable, freezing my Mac regularly when inserted or removed. I have reverted to FW800 which IMO is the most stable and reliable protocol.
    Not all ExpressCards are equal and generally you need to shut them down vs eject etc. The world isn't perfect unfortunately. I use an ExpressCard/34 dual eSata card and it is completely reliable although it does have a shutdown utility - yank it out and yes it'll barf/crash.

    However, I would agree that it would be better when true native thunderbolt USB 3/FW800 hubs are available.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    I have tried to eject and shutdown the card, but it is only reliable if I do it when the laptop is shut down! Nice in theory, in practice a real pain.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post

    From what I know of him (feel free to correct me!) the OP wants to have a MacBookAir for spot checking landscape captures where taking along a heavier/beefier/fw-enabled computer is not worthwhile but a very light USB-only computer might be.


    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
    Absolutely right Doug: part of the IQ attraction for me was exactly this. When in the studio I shoot tethered FW to a mac pro tower but an air in the field would be really useful for checking focus etc...

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    Re: IQ Series and USB?

    Sort-of related question...

    Can you tether a P40+ to a Macbook Air?

    P40+ is obviously FW, Macbook Air USB and Thunderbolt. So I presume there's no way?

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