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Sensor Size/Image Quality

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johnnygoesdigital

New member
Question for the forum:

With the upcoming announcement of the Nikon D800 with a rumored 36MP Full Frame 35mm Sized Sensor, what if any are the advantages of a MF sensor now that DSLR systems are making huge leaps in the MP count?
While the explanation of the nature of quantum physics has hijacked another thread - to the amusement of MFD marketing. The question might be... Is the difference enough to warrant the substantial increase in price for MFD? I've owned H4's, Phase DF's, and I've realized now, that the frustrating reliability of MFD, has to be part of the equation. If one prints really big photographs and gets paid to do so, then yes, MFD is has its advantages. Otherwise, save the $ for great lenses, and a trip to Iceland!
 

Wayne Fox

Workshop Member
I would guess that Nikon and Canon sell many, many more of the D700 and 5DII than the D3x and 1DsIII, to the point where the lower profit margin still yields more money total due to higher sales. However, the sports pro cameras must be selling more, i.e. D3/D3s and 1DIV. I cannot think of any other reason for Nikon to release a D4 with 16MP and a D800 with 36MP (although neither has been confirmed, to my knowledge).
I would guess that Nikon and Canon sell many, many more of the D700 and 5DII than the D3x and 1DsIII, to the point where the lower profit margin still yields more money total due to higher sales. However, the sports pro cameras must be selling more, i.e. D3/D3s and 1DIV. I cannot think of any other reason for Nikon to release a D4 with 16MP and a D800 with 36MP (although neither has been confirmed, to my knowledge).
I think you make some good points.

As a dealer, we rarely get any special information except minuscule hints a day before an actual announcement. However, as a dealer we also see which bodies move, and the 5DMark2 outsells the 1DsMark3 100 to 1 or better (I haven't had anyone ask about a 1DsMk3 in 2 years). We still sell a fair amount of 1D Mark 4's however ... some shooters just need the high speed and pro body.. But that's a pretty small market segment overall. I don't know if Canon is even making the 1DsMark3 anymore.

Same thing with Nikon ... we sat on two D3x's for over a year until the tsunami then were able to unload them on eBay.We have had many shooters switch from Nikon to Canon just because they want the 21mp sensor but don't want to drop 8K on it. Nikon shooters opt for the d700 if they want FF.

So it appears the "flagship" (meaning highest price) cameras of both companies might be durable pro bodies with lower resolution, probably cropped sensor, state of the art AF and outstanding noise performance.

So if the rumors are true, the high resolution bodies appear to be headed towards lower price range pro cameras, not as rugged, perhaps less robust AF, and other cost cutting measures.

There is a much larger potential market for a high resolution camera as long as they keep it in the 2.5 to 3k price range ... in the 5k price range sales would be a fraction ... guessing around 5%.
 

carstenw

Active member
If the D800 will indeed be 36MP, I will probably just get a D4 and call it a day. I love the pro bodies (I have a D3) and 100% viewfinders, but I would like a bit more resolution. I was hoping for 18MP, but 16MP is close enough. I find 12MP just a little small, and anyway, having better ISO performance and video are also attractive.
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Esben

I am just asking: if Dalsa can make a large CCD why aren´t they doing a large CMOS ? Even if the cost would be the same like CCD (which I doubt) the advantage would be immense, such a chip could be used for the varioust purposes.Even if they only make one design with lets say 60 MPix, this could be the bread and butter workhorse for a whole industry.

And as Mr. Hakansson/Phase has said last year: the Contenders need to cooperate.(interview Profifoto 4/2010)

Both Phase/leaf/Mamiya and Hasselblad have to sit down to a table and do their homeworks/speak .......and I add: as long as they still can !

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Esben

I am just asking: if Dalsa can make a large CCD why aren´t they doing a large CMOS ? Even if the cost would be the same like CCD (which I doubt) the advantage would be immense, such a chip could be used for the varioust purposes.Even if they only make one design with lets say 60 MPix, this could be the bread and butter workhorse for a whole industry.

And as Mr. Hakansson/Phase has said last year: the Contenders need to cooperate.(interview Profifoto 4/2010)

Both Phase/leaf/Mamiya and Hasselblad have to sit down to a table and do their homeworks/speak .......and I add: as long as they still can !

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
My, my, you are all over the forum with the gathering clouds of doomsday and technocratic threats left and right Stefan ... :ROTFL:

The nerds are in charge of Photography ... you must do as the hive-mind says ... you will be assimilated ... resistance is futile.

I'm with Guy Mancusio ... I haven't seen a CMOS camera yet that can touch these antiquated, creaky old CCDs ... heck, the dinky res DMR stuff still looks better than the
latest greatest mega meg CMOS wonder-cams. But hey, who cares what the stuff looks like, it's just photography. ;)

-Marc
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
My, my, you are all over the forum with the gathering clouds of doomsday and technocratic threats left and right Stefan ... :ROTFL:

The nerds are in charge of Photography ... you must do as the hive-mind says ... you will be assimilated ... resistance is futile.

I'm with Guy Mancusio ... I haven't seen a CMOS camera yet that can touch these antiquated, creaky old CCDs ... heck, the dinky res DMR stuff still looks better than the
latest greatest mega meg CMOS wonder-cams. But hey, who cares what the stuff looks like, it's just photography. ;)

-Marc
+1,
but hey, I AM a nerd LOL
-bob
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Marc

no wonder that you have not seen a CMOS that made you happy yet - because there is none made (of the matching size) !

and Bob- thanks for the link- I knew the document , but there again this text part:

" Both CCDs and CMOS imagers can offer excellent imaging performance when designed properly"

and the last sentence say it all:

"CCDs and CMOS will remain complementary. The choice continues to depend on the application and the vendor more than the technology. Teledyne DALSA's approach is "technology-neutral": we are one of the few vendors able to offer real solutions with both CCDs and CMOS."


So the question remains !


Regards
Stefan
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I certainly am very much in tune with the nuances of photography, but I have yet to see anything that shows CCDs are nicer at rendering than a CMOS--both pixels are color blind and use the same Bayer filters. Now, each manufacturer has their our color management, but that has nothing to do with the type of sensor. And just saying I like my MFD back better than my Cakon Coolshot does not really say anything.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Marc

no wonder that you have not seen a CMOS that made you happy yet - because there is none made (of the matching size) !

and Bob- thanks for the link- I knew the document , but there again this text part:

" Both CCDs and CMOS imagers can offer excellent imaging performance when designed properly"

and the last sentence say it all:

"CCDs and CMOS will remain complementary. The choice continues to depend on the application and the vendor more than the technology. Teledyne DALSA's approach is "technology-neutral": we are one of the few vendors able to offer real solutions with both CCDs and CMOS."


So the question remains !


Regards
Stefan
It depends on what you mean by excellent and if you care about your images.
Comparing an interline cmos sensor at 11 frames per second is leaning on perhaps its weakest link.
Dual amplifier approaches to attempt to gain wider dr and lower saturation are also applied to traditional ccd applications in some cases.
While that is pretty good it is not a good comparison to an interline ccd at 1 frame per second where the thermal issues are not as severe. CCD's consumption per "read" is somewhere in the order of 100 times larger than cmos.
It reads something like what you see on restaurant menus our "excellent steak" for example, after all they sell both kinds.
CMOS can certainly get you high readout speeds and more circuitry on-chip can yield more function however at an increased design cost and noise level. Let me clarify what I mean by noise. It is the variation of the least significant bits or in signal terms, the available signal in terms of bits of precision. Lots of times, you will see sensors quoted at n-bits of readout per pixel, but analysis demonstrated that maybe only the high order n-2 or 3 are actually any good.
There is certainly a place for cmos and one factor that might drag me there kicking and screaming might simply be the lack of ccd availability once its fabs shut down. For a given physical sensor size you get smoother transitions and gradients with ccd and that is mainly due to its larger well size. Once cmos gets there it still needs to deal with clocking noise which seems evident on many sensors I have examined. This is the most annoying sort.

So yes I believe (don't know for sure) that there will be improvements to a certain extent but we are nowhere near a crisis point and nowhere near a crisp demonstration of fact that cmos is the equal of ccd for imaging applications. I note that many a machine vision application has moved on to commodity cmos sensors due to their cost and where their performance allows, but the high end stuff which incidentally includes the images that inspect cmos wafers iin-process as well as astronomical applications are almost exclusively ccd.

So you can take your physics be damed point of view that economics rules all which might be true when ccd just gets too expensive and the top 1% of those needing quality decide that it is just too expensive and are overwhelmed by the numbers who find mediocre excellent enough.
Now enough of this foolishness, lets get on with showing some images.
-bob
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Bob

"Now enough of this foolishness, lets get on with showing some images."

:) Now you are off topic - regarding the name of the thread

and - I think I can´t be showed more clearly you err as on this Andor website/document about sCMOS . It´s all there, you just need to read it.

BTW: They even have images to look at.....

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Bob

"Now enough of this foolishness, lets get on with showing some images."

:) Now you are off topic - regarding the name of the thread

and - I think I can´t be showed more clearly you err as on this Andor website/document about sCMOS . It´s all there, you just need to read it.

BTW: They even have images to look at.....

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
I read it, I am impressed for its application, I am not impressed with its underlying technology.
I am sure that the future will bring new nifty stuff. I wish Andor all the possible success.
This thread is now closed.
thanks
-bob
 
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