Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

  1. #1
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,206
    Post Thanks / Like

    Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    I just upgraded the Schneider 72L on my cambo to tilt shift. If anyone could share their workflow or experiences on the best practices to utilize the t/s feature on a tech camera I would appreciate it.

  2. #2
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Ed general rule of thumb close focus point say 20 ft and far focus point of 90 ft look at focusing to 60 with 1 degree of forward tilt. About 2/3rds out . Been playing with this on my 60mm this seems to work pretty good. I need to get out more with this and test more. One other trick is watch your focus mask increase in pattern as you tilt. Get it up to a high setting like 70mm focus at say 60 ft and tilt and watch the pattern grow closer. Certainly worth playing around like this to see what effect you get at each degree mark. I am actually thinking of converting my 90mm to TS when I get some money. I think it's around 1200 dollars to convert but I really love it on my 60 so far plus nice Cambo advantage is you can swing at the same time. Been playing with that also. Arca , Alpa just eat my dust. Lol

    I just had to get my dig in since I keep forgetting the myths around here on our inferior Cambo. Oh wait did i just say that mister neutral. Okay relax I'm just freaking teasing. I'm sitting in hospital waiting for a test to be finished on my wife. Just year end stuff here.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  3. #3
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Jack's general rule of thumb for landscape or any image where infinity is part of the desired focus plane AND your camera is at about eye level:

    With the camera zeroed, focus 1/3 from your near focus point to your far focus point then add 1 forward tilt for every 30mm to 35mm of focal length. Note that if your camera position is lower to the ground, you will need MORE forward tilt; and if your far subject is closer than infinity, you will need MORE forward tilt.

    Obviously this only gets you close, but often it's very close; regardless you should use live view or shoot and review to confirm you nailed the correct desired subject focus zone. After the above, all that's usually required is a slight tweak on the focus ring to place the zone precisely where you want it.

    When using combined tilt and swing movements, focus becomes an iterative process, and here live-view or a perfectly calibrated ground-glass previewing system is desirable.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  4. #4
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,802
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Arca , Alpa just eat my dust. Lol

    I just had to get my dig in since I keep forgetting the myths around here on our inferior Cambo. Oh wait did i just say that mister neutral. Okay relax I'm just freaking teasing.
    BTW, there's light at the end of the Alpa tunnel at least for wide angles with T/S although we've just got to wait it out, focus stack and listen to the Arca and Cambo folks in the meantime.

    I've been shooting with the Alpa T/S adapter this week and I found the following article and corresponding tables useful. The tables pretty much match up to Jack's shortcut and you can calculate the actual amount if you really want 180/pi x arcsine(focal length/height in mm)
    http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/a...sing_tilt.html

    The main thing really is to get the approximate tilt and focus and your shooting height has an impact on that as a starting point. I would expect that with Guy and Jack shooting side by side with the same lens that each would need different amounts of tilt, albeit only fractionally, due to their different camera heights (unless Guy is on a box or Jack is crouching over).

    I'm still struggling with the live view though - I get sensor blow out even in early morning shots when I try to adjust for shadow foreground -> brighter horizon. I still have to rely on the shot/review focus mask cycle.
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 23rd December 2011 at 17:26.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  5. #5
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    **** it's a difference of almost a whole foot and I keep shrinking. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  6. #6
    Workshop Member Bryan Stephens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    463
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Sounds like Jack and I have a similar problem.

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Austria
    Posts
    41
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Hi, the best rule for tilt I found in the following article, the charts at the end I always carry with me.

    Best regards

    Wolfgang


    http://www.davidsummerhayes.com/Focu...ift%20lens.pdf

  8. #8
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Great information!
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  9. #9
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,575
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    The correct formula, ArcSin( f / d ), is fortunately very very close to simply ( f / d ) as long as you're not doing macro. The problem is one of units, as the ratio ( f / d ) is in radians. (Note that radians, being the ratio of two lengths, are actually dimensionless units!) To translate into degrees, which is what most cameras are marked in, multiply by 180 / Pi, or about 57.3 ... actually, 60 is probably good enough, so taking the example of a 90mm (that's 0.09 meters) lens 1 meter off the ground, we get 60 * 0.09 / 1, or 5.4 degrees. The correct answer is 5.2 degrees.

    Now we can see where Jack's rule comes from. For a 2 meter camera height, the formula gives a tilt of 57 * f / 2. For an extra degree of tilt, the focal length would have to increase by 2/57, or 0.0351 meters = 35.1mm. From this, we can conclude that Jack is tall.

    Why yes, I was a math professor.

    Matt

  10. #10
    Member David Duffin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    77
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Matt,

    This formula should apply equally well to swing, no? If I were to take a shot with a 90mm lens and the normal lens axis more or less parallel to an infinitely long brick wall and was set up with the centre of the sensor 2m from the wall, and I swing the lens 5.2 degrees toward the wall, would this result in maximum effective DOF with the lens focused at infinity?

  11. #11
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,575
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    David,

    Yes, it applies equally to tilts and swings. Though in that example, the distance to the wall would be 1 meter for 5.2 degrees. For 2 meters, 2.6 degrees.

    Best,

    Matt

  12. #12
    Member David Duffin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    77
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Ahhh, of course, 1 m. Thanks.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Ed, It takes a bit of practice, which you must go through to get a feel for what's going on, then you'll end up with some 'rules-of-thumb' of your own, but also be able to deal with particular situations - basically you'll know where to look when focusing.

    There are two well used approaches. First is iterative (with a few variations on how to actually achieve this), second is by calculation, and yes some LF Photogs do go out with protractors and do this.

    Iterative variations:
    http://www.largeformatphotography.in...-to-focus.html

    Calculation:
    Of course grab any text book on lens/camera geometry and blow your mind.

    Better and more practical, Merklinger came up with a very innovative method http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/

    Once you have Merklingers book then COMPLETELY CHEAT and grab the s/sheet from Alpa's website: http://www.alpa.ch/en/products/tools...alculator.html

    - Paul

  14. #14
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,501
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    With tilts, I eyeball it. I make an imaginary line from the image plane to the ground and then I tilt the lens plane to intersect that. That is basically the Scheimflug (Sp?) rule--the image plane, lens plane, and object plane intersect at one line (or point, if you it makes it easier). The object plane can also be the best plane that interests object space.

    I confirm my tilt by shooting wide open to see how the DoF intersects the scene. I then stop down to get what I need in focus.

  15. #15
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,802
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Harold Merklinger's treatise on focus, tilt & DoF in general are all excellent. Download his articles & ebooks and send him a PayPal as he has always been a great contributor to the photographic community.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  16. #16
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,206
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Since my height is about half way between Guy and Jack, I guess I'll just average their advice... LOL!

    Thanks for the great information, I'll have plenty of ideas to test out before heading to Hawaii next month. It's amazing how my inspiration adapts to the weather, Hawaii and India in January, Tuscany in the spring, Alaska in June. Life is good.

    Merry Christmas to all!

  17. #17
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,501
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Since my height is about half way between Guy and Jack, I guess I'll just average their advice... LOL!

    Thanks for the great information, I'll have plenty of ideas to test out before heading to Hawaii next month. It's amazing how my inspiration adapts to the weather, Hawaii and India in January, Tuscany in the spring, Alaska in June. Life is good.

    Merry Christmas to all!
    Whatsa matta, can't expose correctly for snow?

    Have a great trip. Really looking forward to seeing some work. India seems like a new type of adventure for you.

    Merry Christmas.

  18. #18
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    From this, we can conclude that Jack is tall.
    198.9 cm to be precise

    The reality is it is extremely difficult to hit a partial degree of tilt accurately to begin with. Moreover, in actual use at typical apertures like f8, 11 or 16, the difference of 1/2 degree plus or minus tilt will be of little net consequence to the final image focus "wedge," unless you are shooting a very short lens like a 23/24 or focussed at very close distances, like under 20x focal length...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  19. #19
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    198.9 cm to be precise
    Really? Here I thought you were taller. Heck, I'm only 205.7 cm......
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Warks, UK
    Posts
    550
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    The correct formula, ArcSin( f / d ), is fortunately very very close to simply ( f / d ) as long as you're not doing macro. The problem is one of units, as the ratio ( f / d ) is in radians. (Note that radians, being the ratio of two lengths, are actually dimensionless units!) To translate into degrees, which is what most cameras are marked in, multiply by 180 / Pi, or about 57.3 ... actually, 60 is probably good enough, so taking the example of a 90mm (that's 0.09 meters) lens 1 meter off the ground, we get 60 * 0.09 / 1, or 5.4 degrees. The correct answer is 5.2 degrees.

    Now we can see where Jack's rule comes from. For a 2 meter camera height, the formula gives a tilt of 57 * f / 2. For an extra degree of tilt, the focal length would have to increase by 2/57, or 0.0351 meters = 35.1mm. From this, we can conclude that Jack is tall.

    Why yes, I was a math professor.

    Matt
    It is more about Maths than Myths, but I thought it was ArcSin(f/j), and you calculate your tilt angle and set it before you start trying to focus... it is, of course, different if you are using a Sinar or a CAPcam... if you really want to know read Merklinger's "Focusing the view camera"... and this is independent of photographer's height - J could be 20 feet - or meters.

    From memory I think I worked out an approximation: divide the focal length (in mm) by 20 and then divide the answer by J in meters, so for a 80mm lens and J=2m you get 2 degrees. (2.29 if you use a calculator and trig). It is very approximate, but useful if you do not have a scientific calculator on your phone.
    Last edited by dick; 24th December 2011 at 10:50.

  21. #21
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,802
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Save yourself a bunch of trouble with maths and just carry the little tilt angle / focal length / height above image plane card ... you're only carrying a limited number of lenses anyway so it's not like you need a huge spreadsheet for this.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Warks, UK
    Posts
    550
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Save yourself a bunch of trouble with maths and just carry the little tilt angle / focal length / height above image plane card ... you're only carrying a limited number of lenses anyway so it's not like you need a huge spreadsheet for this.
    You could put this into a spreadsheet on your phone, so that you could enter and calculate any unusual J's or fs?

  23. #23
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    Really? Here I thought you were taller. Heck, I'm only 205.7 cm......
    Don, I only appear taller because I am so damn good looking!

    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  24. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Montgomery, AL
    Posts
    27
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Technical Camera T/S Workflow

    I kind of like the iPhone app called Tilt Lens.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •