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Thread: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I hope that DHW can stay healthy and maybe nurse the Hy6 back to full viability. Hope, but don't expect. That is the system I wanted the V to grow into, but Rollei never had the marketing power or success of Hasselblad, so I guess there was no way from here to there, really.
    Interesting discussion. I actually just placed an order for a Hy6 to replace my V system. In my eyes the Hy6 is a more modern version of the V system. The idea is to shoot film initially. If I really like the system I will start looking for a digital back as well. For the V system I currently have the CFV back. Next to that I have a H4X with a P30+ back.

    About DHW, they seem to be doing reasonably well. As a lot of other companies they are mostly focusing on China and surroundings. They have a distributor there called Livecoal:
    http://livecoal.com.hk/page/22/
    and their dealer network seems to be growing:
    http://livecoal.com.hk/dealer/ALL/

    I really hope it works out for them.

    Joris.

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The Leaf backs can be ordered in almost any camera mount ... the CFV fits one. Economy of scale, you do the math.

    -Marc
    Nope, wrong. The Leaf R backs are available ONLY in Hasselblad V mount. Hence, sales generated ONLY by the V mount backs need to be high enough to both recuperate the R&D money involved in the development of the R mechanism and - possibly - to make a profit.
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Hey, maybe they will do that ... who knows? I doubt it.

    How much is a Leaf Aptus-IIR V mount in the 50 meg range? How does it compare to the Price of a CFV/50?

    It seems ill advised to chase after a large base comprised of a few dedicated and well heeled old-school users that may spring for a $25K to $30K back. I seriously doubt there are herds of Hasselblad V users that picked up their camera for $800 that are clamoring for a $25K to $30K digital back.

    ...
    Leaf Aptus II 10R, 56 Mp, 18.995 euro
    Hasselblad CFV-50, 50 Mp, 13.020 euro
    just for scale, the Aptus 8, 40 Mp, goes for 10.995 euro.

    So you see, not that much of a difference once you put MP difference into play. I am sure Hasselblad can do a rotating back, 50 Mp, for 14-15K euro. About $18-19K US, not $25-30K; and we are not talking about users picking an $800 body, at least not only about these users; we are talking about a user base of people, pros and amateurs alike, with large systems and large investments in V body & lenses that would love to keep using the system they know and love with a functional DB, not an aborted design like the current CFV.
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    In regards to Hy6/Afi, I couldn't be happier. I realize I was buying into a system with a very uncertain future, yet at the same time, there is something to say about having a rotating sensor, which I think is a must have today. I use this feature almost everyday whether I am shooting with my Hy6 or Sinar arTec, I just attach my AFI back, and that's it, never have to worry about removing the back and rotating it or rotating my Hy6 / arTec.

    I hope in the future Phase comes out with a similar technology that Leaf created.
    In the mean time I will keep shooting my Hy6/AFI/arTec system and to me I think I have the best of both worlds.
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Nope, wrong. The Leaf R backs are available ONLY in Hasselblad V mount. Hence, sales generated ONLY by the V mount backs need to be high enough to both recuperate the R&D money involved in the development of the R mechanism and - possibly - to make a profit.
    OOPS! FYI, a little research always helps before being so declarative

    http://www.leaf-photography.com/products_aptus212r.asp

    Scroll down to the Cameras Supported. They are all there: Phase One, Mamiya 645s, Mamiya RZs and RB, Hassey H and V, Fuji GX, Bronica, Contax.

    -Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    OOPS! FYI, a little research always helps before being so declarative

    http://www.leaf-photography.com/products_aptus212r.asp

    Scroll down to the Cameras Supported. They are all there: Phase One, Mamiya 645s, Mamiya RZs and RB, Hassey H and V, Fuji GX, Bronica, Contax.

    -Marc
    Exactly, a little more research would help you too. Check out on Leaf price list, you can probably get it from your friendly Leaf dealer or I can send it to you directly. The Only R back offered for sale is, in fact, the one in the V mount. OOPS! The page you linked, in the "Specification" tab, is the general Leaf specification spreadsheet for all backs, as you can see, is not R-specific; even if they probably "theoretically" could support any mount for the R, they actually sell it only in V mount...
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Leaf Aptus II 10R, 56 Mp, 18.995 euro
    Hasselblad CFV-50, 50 Mp, 13.020 euro
    just for scale, the Aptus 8, 40 Mp, goes for 10.995 euro.

    So you see, not that much of a difference once you put MP difference into play. I am sure Hasselblad can do a rotating back, 50 Mp, for 14-15K euro. About $18-19K US, not $25-30K; and we are not talking about users picking an $800 body, at least not only about these users; we are talking about a user base of people, pros and amateurs alike, with large systems and large investments in V body & lenses that would love to keep using the system they know and love with a functional DB, not an aborted design like the current CFV.
    I think it is unrealistic to expect Hasselblad to make a back with the features of a $25,000 back from Leaf and sell it for about the same price as the current CFV/50. Really?

    The Leaf Aptus 8 you mentioned doesn't come in a R version, so it's out of context to this V rotating sensor discussion.

    BTW, I just realized that the CFV/39 is now discontinued ... only the CFV/50 now. Leaf has 8 different backs you can put on a Hasselblad V camera, two with rotating sensors ... and Hasselblad has one. I think Hasselblad is moving in the right direction.

    -Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Leaf has 8 different backs you can put on a Hasselblad V camera, two with rotating sensors ... and Hasselblad has one. I think Hasselblad is moving in the right direction.
    Really? The mount is really the least trouble of all of the design, considering that the back, sensor and rotating sensor assembly are already designed. Why would someone not take advantage of that? Hasselblad wouldn't, because it would be a one-system back, but Leaf certainly should.
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Exactly, a little more research would help you too. Check out on Leaf price list, you can probably get it from your friendly Leaf dealer or I can send it to you directly. The Only R back offered for sale is, in fact, the one in the V mount. OOPS! The page you linked, in the "Specification" tab, is the general Leaf specification spreadsheet for all backs, as you can see, is not R-specific; even if they probably "theoretically" could support any mount for the R, they actually sell it only in V mount...
    So, that sounds fairly misleading if not stupid. In fact it is hard to believe.

    So if I wanted a Leaf 10R or 12R back to use on a technical camera so I don't have to remove and rotate the back out in the field, I'd have to buy a V mount no matter what SLR MF camera system I already have, because V mount is the only R version they sell. Really?

    Talk about missing an opportunity. With that restriction I'd never buy a Leaf R back.

    Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I think it is unrealistic to expect Hasselblad to make a back with the features of a $25,000 back from Leaf and sell it for about the same price as the current CFV/50. Really?

    The Leaf Aptus 8 you mentioned doesn't come in a R version, so it's out of context to this V rotating sensor discussion.

    BTW, I just realized that the CFV/39 is now discontinued ... only the CFV/50 now. Leaf has 8 different backs you can put on a Hasselblad V camera, two with rotating sensors ... and Hasselblad has one. I think Hasselblad is moving in the right direction.

    -Marc
    Marc, read again. The Aptus 10 sells for about $24K AT 56 MP. The CFV-50 sells for $16K AT 50 MP. I mentioned the Aptus 8 as a reference to better situate a possible 50 Mp price between the two Aptus, the 56Mp & the 40Mp; IMO there isn't much of a difference, and IMO Hasselblad could sell a R version of the CFV-50 for what I mentioned in my previous post, TAKING THE MP DIFFERENCE INTO ACCOUNT. Think about it with a non-prejudiced mind, if you can , and you'll see that it makes sense.

    Exactly. Leaf has 8 different backs you can put on a Hasselblad V camera, two with rotating sensors, and Hasselblad has only (a crippled) one. I think Hasselblad is moving in the wrong direction, seeing that the V is actually Hasselblad own system!

    Anyway, whatever you say Marc, we shall agree to disagree and I am off this futile polemic now, since we each keep repeating pretty much the same things over and over. A very Happy New Year to you!
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    So, that sounds fairly misleading if not stupid. In fact it is hard to believe.

    So if I wanted a Leaf 10R or 12R back to use on a technical camera so I don't have to remove and rotate the back out in the field, I'd have to buy a V mount no matter what SLR MF camera system I already have, because V mount is the only R version they sell. Really?

    ...
    So it seems. PM me an email address and I will send you Leaf's own price list. Seeing is believing
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Carsten -- we should talk about this when I am in Berlin! Unfortunately, I will not be able to bring the S2 with me. But I came from a similar background as you -- having used the 200 series, 6008AF and Hy6 before getting the S2. I still use the 203FE for film (and love it for that...I don't really have any of the complaints about it that you have, but maybe I am just used to it.), but I got rid of the Hy6 and 6008. From my perspective, the Hy6 would have been an incredible camera to shoot 6x6 with, but I had it for more than a year, all the while begging for a 6x6 film back...I had sold it before they ever got around to putting one out (and everyone I asked said it was unlikely to ever happen). Evidently they are now out there somewhere, but I still have not so much as seen one on the web, outside of DHW's own pictures. While the S2 is extremely expensive, from my view it is a far far better system than the Hy6 was with digital (at least with the Sinar back I used). While the Hy6 has some nicely integrated features, it cannot match the integration and ergonomics of the S2. And while it is expensive, I managed to completely cover the cost of the S2 by selling the Rollei system and my older Leica R system. If you tally up how much money you have sitting in gear, it might surprise you, especially if you have any Leica stuff -- I sold most of the Leica lenses I had for more than what I bought them for...sometimes a lot more!

    But I would also say there is no reason to make this sort of decision today if you don't have to. The equipment keeps getting better, and in some sense it keeps getting cheaper too. It is not impossible to find a good deal on a demo or used S2 (though it does require some digging), and of course a lot of the older Phase, Hassie and Leaf backs can be had for a decent price. Sinar backs are really cheap now (though based on my experience, I cannot recommend them for most people).
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    We can chat more about this when we meet, but I do think that the Sinar backs are a little old at this point, and a modern Leaf back would be much nicer to work with, also giving the option of using Capture One. I do like the S2, and have handled one on a couple of occasions, but I am leaning towards having a tech camera, as well as shooting film, and I think the Hy6 combines all these options in one system, while offering great lenses. The S2 is also just very expensive. The Hy6 6x6 film back is now freely available on eBay, although it does cost 1600 Euro! Even the most expensive Rollei lens (maybe the 90 Macro) now costs about half of an S2 lens.

    At optimistic prices, I do have a lot of money sitting in gear, maybe even 25k Euro, but that is just the base price of the S2, and I would have to sell a lot of nice equipment, including my entire Nikon system, which I really don't want to do. The Hy6 would allow me to keep more, even if I sell my M stuff and buy a couple of nice Rollei lenses. I am also simply looking to reduce my total investment in photo equipment. There are other priorities too. Another option would be to keep the 6008i for film and keep my Contax 645 and get an older Phase back for that, maybe a P45+. The Sinar back didn't work well with my Contax, I am not sure why, but I suspect the adapter. The same back worked fine on a Hy6 for the previous owner.

    Anyway, as you say, I am not making any decisions today. For now I am still happy with MF film and my D3, or possibly an upgrade to the D3x or the new D4, and I am just eyeing the possibilities. I have some really nice shots made with the eMotion 54 LV I had, which make me think I would like to own another back.
    Last edited by carstenw; 30th December 2011 at 00:35.
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Marc, read again. The Aptus 10 sells for about $24K AT 56 MP. The CFV-50 sells for $16K AT 50 MP. I mentioned the Aptus 8 as a reference to better situate a possible 50 Mp price between the two Aptus, the 56Mp & the 40Mp; IMO there isn't much of a difference, and IMO Hasselblad could sell a R version of the CFV-50 for what I mentioned in my previous post, TAKING THE MP DIFFERENCE INTO ACCOUNT. Think about it with a non-prejudiced mind, if you can , and you'll see that it makes sense.

    Exactly. Leaf has 8 different backs you can put on a Hasselblad V camera, two with rotating sensors, and Hasselblad has only (a crippled) one. I think Hasselblad is moving in the wrong direction, seeing that the V is actually Hasselblad own system!

    Anyway, whatever you say Marc, we shall agree to disagree and I am off this futile polemic now, since we each keep repeating pretty much the same things over and over. A very Happy New Year to you!
    Well, don't give up so soon my friend ... you are informing and convincing me I need not be entrenched in my thinking either.

    In reality, I fully understand the devotion to of the V system. It was what many passionate photographers aspired to, and once secured became an unwavering partner in making quality photographs, often for decades. As digital became mainstream for most all commercial work and a lot of advanced enthusiasts, there was a constant hope that the V could adapt .... at first it seemed to be doing that ... I held onto a pretty vast collection of bodies and lenses until only recently myself.

    Frankly, I don't know what financial demands, market pressures and politics lead to weak support for the V system, but it looked to be half-hearted and waning. Would a high spec CFV with a rotating sensor be possible? Would it infringe on patents? Could they afford engineering it? Would it be too little to late? Could it compete with already existing backs that already do all that, and survive? Could the V with it's fairly demanding quirks continue to conquest new converts in the face of advanced technological demands from new MFD users? I personally have no idea. All I know is what they did do.

    We can all lament what some of these companies actually do compared to what WE THINK they could have done. "IF ONLY", is an often heard refrain from experienced and dedicated photographers across the internet.

    If only Kyocera had held on a bit longer, and if only Phase One had bought the Contax platform and improved on that (frankly, that is what I'd be shooting today had it happened).

    If only the Xpan had not been killed, and a digital version had been developed.

    If only Leica had not killed the R (although it is now perfectly clear that decision was probably correct ... and is the basis of my argument against further investment in the V system to "take advantage of legacy owners" ... there was a huge base of R lens holders out there just waiting for the DMR replacement.

    If only the Hy6 had been a raging success. If only they had made it easier to swap platforms upon introduction.

    We all have our "If Only" and "Why Didn't They." Coulda, woulda, shoulda. It is what it is, and as it is, it isn't all that bad ... damned good stuff from all these companies, and getting better every year ... plus a fair amount of choice is emerging .... Pentax 645D price/value all the way to the astounding IQs ... to even a Leica MFD choice (which, BTW, for many owners promotes that elusive "love" thing beyond just being a tool ... damned thing is not only winning minds, it's winning hearts).

    Peace pal, we are both right and there is no wrong when it comes to our own "What Ifs"

    A very happy, healthy and prosperous New Year to you also!

    -Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well, don't give up so soon my friend ... you are informing and convincing me I need not be entrenched in my thinking either.

    In reality, I fully understand the devotion to of the V system. It was what many passionate photographers aspired to, and once secured became an unwavering partner in making quality photographs, often for decades. As digital became mainstream for most all commercial work and a lot of advanced enthusiasts, there was a constant hope that the V could adapt .... at first it seemed to be doing that ... I held onto a pretty vast collection of bodies and lenses until only recently myself.

    Frankly, I don't know what financial demands, market pressures and politics lead to weak support for the V system, but it looked to be half-hearted and waning. Would a high spec CFV with a rotating sensor be possible? Would it infringe on patents? Could they afford engineering it? Would it be too little to late? Could it compete with already existing backs that already do all that, and survive? Could the V with it's fairly demanding quirks continue to conquest new converts in the face of advanced technological demands from new MFD users? I personally have no idea. All I know is what they did do.
    I completely agree on the half-hearted support Hasselblad gave to the V system; you know, they still put money in it (CFV-16, 39, 50) and due to the blotched way they did I am not sure that was a sound move, financially. To me, besides all the woulds and just looking at what they did, after the 16 they took the worse possible choice: a neither/nor, which still costed money but was engineered in the worse way to get that money back... Leaving practically the whole pie to Leaf, basically, after spending money in it. It would probably have made more sense to just let others do it.

    We can all lament what some of these companies actually do compared to what WE THINK they could have done. "IF ONLY", is an often heard refrain from experienced and dedicated photographers across the internet.

    If only Kyocera had held on a bit longer, and if only Phase One had bought the Contax platform and improved on that (frankly, that is what I'd be shooting today had it happened).
    This is definitely what I would have done, too, no questions about it

    If only the Xpan had not been killed, and a digital version had been developed.
    Again, I'd buy one in a second

    If only Leica had not killed the R (although it is now perfectly clear that decision was probably correct ... and is the basis of my argument against further investment in the V system to "take advantage of legacy owners" ... there was a huge base of R lens holders out there just waiting for the DMR replacement.
    Well, Leica did better than Hasselblad on this one; the Module R was a very good platform for what it was, just as the CFV-16, in their time: Leica, though it made a lot of R users pissed, did definitely the right choice in letting the R system go and focussing on something else. Plus, they had the advantage of not having a MF legacy system to preserve. Again, Leica model is what Hasselblad should have done IMO after the CFV-16...

    If only the Hy6 had been a raging success. If only they had made it easier to swap platforms upon introduction.

    We all have our "If Only" and "Why Didn't They." Coulda, woulda, shoulda. It is what it is, and as it is, it isn't all that bad ... damned good stuff from all these companies, and getting better every year ... plus a fair amount of choice is emerging .... Pentax 645D price/value all the way to the astounding IQs ... to even a Leica MFD choice (which, BTW, for many owners promotes that elusive "love" thing beyond just being a tool ... damned thing is not only winning minds, it's winning hearts).

    Peace pal, we are both right and there is no wrong when it comes to our own "What Ifs"

    A very happy, healthy and prosperous New Year to you also!

    -Marc
    Definitely, is all in good fun - what would we do without all the shoulda/woulda plus I am pretty sure that companies follow all our ramblings and use these fora as a thermometer and a part of their market analysis as well. At least I hope they would

    Oh, and yes that S2 is damn sexy! As is the M9, which I own; Leica certainly know a thing or two about winning hearts...

    Again, Happy New Year, might 2012 be the very best yet!
    Last edited by vieri; 30th December 2011 at 06:02.
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    I completely agree on the half-hearted support Hasselblad gave to the V system; you know, they still put money in it (CFV-16, 39, 50) and due to the blotched way they did I am not sure that was a sound move, financially.
    Don't forget that Hasselblad, like so many companies, rested on their V laurels for way to long and nearly went out of business, and only barely managed to stay alive with the H system. Their hands were financially tied for a long time. More recently, they have had more options, and have continued to release more CFV backs. All that is missing is a square-sensor back which nearly fills the format and gives reasonable MP and a good interface. Since they can't dual-develop this for H and V, I don't know if it will ever happen. The fact that there isn't a square sensor being made by Kodak or Dalsa (to my knowledge) might also have something to do with it None of this is insurmountable, ultimately, but it certainly needs to be a clearly good move before such a large effort and investment would be made.

    Leica certainly know aching or two about winning hearts...
    That looks like a Mac or iOS spelling correction

    Happy New Year!
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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Don't forget that Hasselblad, like so many companies, rested on their V laurels for way to long and nearly went out of business, and only barely managed to stay alive with the H system. Their hands were financially tied for a long time. More recently, they have had more options, and have continued to release more CFV backs. All that is missing is a square-sensor back which nearly fills the format and gives reasonable MP and a good interface. Since they can't dual-develop this for H and V, I don't know if it will ever happen. The fact that there isn't a square sensor being made by Kodak or Dalsa (to my knowledge) might also have something to do with it None of this is insurmountable, ultimately, but it certainly needs to be a clearly good move before such a large effort and investment would be made.
    Indeed, Hasselblad is one of these companies that failed to see digital coming in all its might Well, what they could do to easily fix the CFV-50 blunder at practically zero cost is this: take off the body/back connection (which works iffy at best), make the back attachable both in landscape & portrait orientation. This way it will be at least usable on the V system. Then see how many you sell, and if the numbers are right, invest in developing a rotating mount for the CFV-xx. If the numbers aren't right, they'd just drop it overall, without losing much if at all more than they already did. Easy & painless

    That looks like a Mac or iOS spelling correction

    Happy New Year!
    Indeed, one of these perfect "corrections"!! fixed!
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    My guess is a 40mpx sq v back would satisfy, eh?
    If yes, you already have it

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    My guess is a 40mpx sq v back would satisfy, eh?
    If yes, you already have it
    Is not primarily the Mp, is mainly the sensor size that wouldn't do. 36.7x36.7 square means a crop factor of 1.5x, so no WA left (even the 38 Biogon of the SWC/903 will be a 57mm equivalent). Plus, coming to the Mp, if you need to shot in portrait orientation you'll get to crop to a 24x36 image with 26Mp. Basically a D3x with no wide angles and very slow lenses Not a great bargain, IMHO.

    On the other end, a 40 Mp 56x56 square sensor would be a pretty good start
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    I agree with this quote from Stuart Richardson...
    "But I would also say there is no reason to make this sort of decision today if you don't have to. The equipment keeps getting better, and in some sense it keeps getting cheaper too".

    The last couple of years for MFD, seemed more like beta versions for me, as none of them were reliable. Some had features the others lacked, but none of them had the best in one DB. Most don't have the luxury of buying multiple camera systems, so this becomes very personal when finally making a choice. The price point for MFD, is insulting too, considering the time most take to make these decisions, and then have an upgraded version released shortly after.
    For most of my editorial work or faster workflow photography, the Sony Alpha, 35mm FF, has been amazing. For the big gallery prints, Tech cameras using film, is always my choice. And for those who consider film not useful, consider a recent Andre Kertesz photo that sold for over $300,000. I've owned the H3D, H4D, CFV, Phase DF, and have never bonded with any of these cameras, (except the S2, but too pricey). The CFV/16 seems the only DB from Hasselblad to have that mystic quality for V users. The CFV/39 for portraits was not thought out either, as you can't use a 90 degree finder, except the RM-2, which is quite heavy. And shooting square was kind of pointless too, sort of like buying an IQ series with sensor plus.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    And for those who consider film not useful, consider a recent Andre Kertesz photo that sold for over $300,000.
    But he is dead and not really benefiting from the sale. But I am not sure the price is because of film. If he has a digital camera when shooting Paris at Night, I am sure the print would get as much. I am also sure if I made pictures at night around Paris, I would not get the attention he did.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    But he is dead and not really benefiting from the sale. But I am not sure the price is because of film. If he has a digital camera when shooting Paris at Night, I am sure the print would get as much. I am also sure if I made pictures at night around Paris, I would not get the attention he did.
    Valid points.
    I'm not trying to make this about film vs digital, but the high end art buyers seem to favor the film process over digital when considering photography as an art investment. The manipulation of an image in camera and the variables in processing and printing, have an appeal that have more character and warmth than the 1's and 0's of digital. This is not to say that MFD shooters don't sell high end photographs, it's just that to many art buyers, film feels more like an expression of creative skill and imagination. With MFD, you can take 100 photographs in 10 minutes and eventually get what you want. Film takes a certain amount of skill and theory to achieve a kind of, "limited edition" photograph. Besides there are far fewer complaints about gear too.

    I got caught up in the MFD technology hype. I was convinced that the workflow and format would outweigh the inconvenience of film. However, after coming full circle in digital photography gear, so to speak. I find that 35mm FF digital, as the technology stands now, is far more reliable, and thus more superior for me, in my kind of shooting. If I need absolute detail for table top or other studio/fashion shoots quickly, i'll rent a MFD, but I would never purchase one. Soon Sony and Nikon are going to give MFD, shooters more to consider.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 30th December 2011 at 10:29.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Valid points.
    I'm not trying to make this about film vs digital, but the high end art buyers seem to favor the film process over digital when considering photography as an art investment. The manipulation of an image in camera and the variables in processing and printing, have an appeal that have more character and warmth than the 1's and 0's of digital. This is not to say that MFD shooters don't sell high end photographs, it's just that to many art buyers, film feels more like an expression of creative skill and imagination. With MFD, you can take 500 photographs in 10 minutes and eventually get what you want. Film takes a certain amount of skill and theory to achieve a kind of, "limited edition" photograph. Besides there are far fewer complaints about gear too.

    A very debatable statement. The most prolific and successful 'fine art' photographer in my area is 100% digital and has been for quite a while. What do I know though, If I knew what people wanted in fine art purchases maybe I could sell more of them .

    As usual it's about solid vision & execution along with even more solid marketing.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by NicholasRab View Post
    A very debatable statement. The most prolific and successful 'fine art' photographer in my area is 100% digital and has been for quite a while. What do I know though, If I knew what people wanted in fine art purchases maybe I could sell more of them .

    As usual it's about solid vision & execution along with even more solid marketing.
    And that success will probably evolve too, as more become familiar, and accustomed to digital. I'm speaking from experience with certain NYC gallery owners specifically. They have a definite preference for film over digital...for now

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    high end art buyers seem to favor the film process over digital
    I think more to the point is that investors favour artists who are dead rather than alive They won't be putting out any more originals, so the value is stable. Famous photographers who are dead mostly used film.

    I do agree that a D3x would be a great camera for what I do, but I had a digital back, and the results, on those occasions when I could control the back properly, were superior. I long for that experience again, but without the flakiness this time.
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I think more to the point is that investors favour artists who are dead rather than alive ...
    Tell that to Cindy Sherman ... 09-11-11 auction, untitled # 282: $818,500

    Hmmm, I have an early print of "Satiric Dancer" by Andre' Kertesz signed on the back and dated Paris 1926 that I bought from a highly reputable gallery in 1981 while Kertesz was still alive.

    Today's ArtDaily.org just announced one sold for GBP 228,500! What is the conversion to US Dollars? Is that like over $300,000?

    http://www.artdaily.com/index.asp?in...280&int_modo=2



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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    This is all tongue-in-cheek anyway, but saying that investors favour dead artists doesn't mean no living artist is earning good money. Case in point: Gursky
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Valid points.
    I'm not trying to make this about film vs digital, but the high end art buyers seem to favor the film process over digital when considering photography as an art investment. The manipulation of an image in camera and the variables in processing and printing, have an appeal that have more character and warmth than the 1's and 0's of digital. This is not to say that MFD shooters don't sell high end photographs, it's just that to many art buyers, film feels more like an expression of creative skill and imagination. With MFD, you can take 100 photographs in 10 minutes and eventually get what you want. Film takes a certain amount of skill and theory to achieve a kind of, "limited edition" photograph. Besides there are far fewer complaints about gear too.

    I got caught up in the MFD technology hype. I was convinced that the workflow and format would outweigh the inconvenience of film. However, after coming full circle in digital photography gear, so to speak. I find that 35mm FF digital, as the technology stands now, is far more reliable, and thus more superior for me, in my kind of shooting. If I need absolute detail for table top or other studio/fashion shoots quickly, i'll rent a MFD, but I would never purchase one. Soon Sony and Nikon are going to give MFD, shooters more to consider.
    When you can sell your unmade bed or a pickled shark for lots of money, I am not sure it is easy to peg "art" buyers. An art buyer collecting the work of a photographer usually does not care that much about how the photographer got there--I am sure Salgado will sell plenty of his digital work taken during the Genesis project. An art buyer collecting a process, would have other criteria like if it was shot on film or made with egg whites.

    I have not found the skill to make a good photograph any more difficult in one process or another. "Warmth" and character of a process is the result of the individual photographer, not the particular technology.

    I can also shoot 100 film frames in 10 minutes. But working deliberately is not a film/digital thing. My Hexar AF was a P&S and my Phase 25+ on a Linhof C679 is really slow. I have found my Pentax 645D just as reliable as any DLSR from Sony or Nikon. MFD is no silver bullet. But it is no more difficult to shoot MFD than MFF.

    I guess I am just not seeing your argument. Film works really well for you. It is an excellent and vital process. And you like it. That is enough of a reason for me to use any process. I was shooting 6x6 and 6x12 until last year when economics and practicality made me move over. MFD is just another technology/process in a long line of other technologies and processes. There is nothing really special about it.

    But I think I might be a little bit of an odd duck around GetDPI. My images need no apology as I really enjoy making them and showing them. Shot today with the 645D, handheld, and in focus, although I am sure most around here would tell me I need a tripod...

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    This is all tongue-in-cheek anyway, but saying that investors favour dead artists doesn't mean no living artist is earning good money. Case in point: Gursky
    He's not dead?

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    No tripod needed for me. Nice image



    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Shot today with the 645D, handheld, and in focus, although I am sure most around here would tell me I need a tripod...
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by TH_Alpa View Post
    No tripod needed for me. Nice image



    Thierry
    Thanks.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    He's not dead?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Gursky

    I guess your Google broke? Or was there a smiley missing?
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Gursky

    I guess your Google broke? Or was there a smiley missing?
    Missing smiley. Would you like me to reedit my post?

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    i like Gursky; no smileys needed

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Not to throw oil on the fire, but some thoughts on the Hy6 and the Hassy V. I have for years been tempted by the Hassy V with a CV back - nice size, compact, and simple mech'l. The problem has been the Rollei system in the hands is just... well, its an update. If you forgive the Hy6 the handle on the side, you get practically everything (or more) of the H series, and also most of the virtues of the V series. From the V: choice of finders, wide set of lenses, removable backs, modular system, with all sorts of different accessories; from the H: all different levels of automation and sophistication current today. Overall, better mirror damping than the V; integral back "alignment" or shimming; focus trap, bracketing,.... etc. A bunch of Schneider lenses that remain valid.

    For the serious amateur, there is another virtue - focus confirmation allows the use of a manual lenses without fault. Thus you have access to 20 years + of used 6008 lenses.... and they are running at about Leica used prices, while not cheap, they are affordable if you pick carefully. Add to that the rotating sensor, use of film if you want, etc. C1 support...

    Yes supposedly its a "dead system", but what does that mean? I had an M2 for a jillion years, and didn't ever call on Leica for it to be a viable camera. Contax owners been shooting happily with less factory support than DHW. OK - its a small factory, building it from parts, and maybe its on life support, but its still there, still supporting the camera, lenses and accessories. Its not global, its local. Service is personal. Is that all bad?

    It just seems if we could get away from the issue of "who's got the current corner on MFDB systems?", and more on to what works, and what you need for it to work, we'd be having a slightly different discussion. The Hy6 system is a pretty viable alternative if you are willing to live with long-distance support and are technically interested. Its not buffed and polished, certainly doesn't present strongly in the publicity world (better yet, it hides itself pretty well), but it does work strongly.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Not to throw oil on the fire, but some thoughts on the Hy6 and the Hassy V. I have for years been tempted by the Hassy V with a CV back - nice size, compact, and simple mech'l. The problem has been the Rollei system in the hands is just... well, its an update. If you forgive the Hy6 the handle on the side, you get practically everything (or more) of the H series, and also most of the virtues of the V series. From the V: choice of finders, wide set of lenses, removable backs, modular system, with all sorts of different accessories; from the H: all different levels of automation and sophistication current today. Overall, better mirror damping than the V; integral back "alignment" or shimming; focus trap, bracketing,.... etc. A bunch of Schneider lenses that remain valid.

    For the serious amateur, there is another virtue - focus confirmation allows the use of a manual lenses without fault. Thus you have access to 20 years + of used 6008 lenses.... and they are running at about Leica used prices, while not cheap, they are affordable if you pick carefully. Add to that the rotating sensor, use of film if you want, etc. C1 support...

    Yes supposedly its a "dead system", but what does that mean? I had an M2 for a jillion years, and didn't ever call on Leica for it to be a viable camera. Contax owners been shooting happily with less factory support than DHW. OK - its a small factory, building it from parts, and maybe its on life support, but its still there, still supporting the camera, lenses and accessories. Its not global, its local. Service is personal. Is that all bad?

    It just seems if we could get away from the issue of "who's got the current corner on MFDB systems?", and more on to what works, and what you need for it to work, we'd be having a slightly different discussion. The Hy6 system is a pretty viable alternative if you are willing to live with long-distance support and are technically interested. Its not buffed and polished, certainly doesn't present strongly in the publicity world (better yet, it hides itself pretty well), but it does work strongly.
    I doubt you'll get much argument about the Hy6's virtues Geoff, and most know them pretty well. On paper it indeed fits the spec's for those who like that type of camera, and the various modern features it has. Definately a great camera.

    I don't recall anyone specifically calling it a "dead system", but it does present itself as a "dead-end system" as of now ... which can be a somewhat unnerving prospect to commit to with a Hy6 mount DB, and expensive Rollei Leaf shutter lens system. At best it is an exotic choice.

    IMO, mechanical cameras like the M2 and V are different, there are so many places and well known technicians to get them repaired that it takes the edge off, not to mention there are replacements to be had in an instant. Even the Contax 645 was somewhat different ... it was a well established, popular platform made for years before its demise, is still readily available used at reasonable prices (heck, even B&H has used ones in stock), and ToCad Inc. was officially appointed as the service agent in the USA. As an example of "dead-end" becoming "dead", ToCad no longer can service the Contax RTS and RTS-II because parts are no longer available ... they won't even accept the camera.

    What I find interesting when you follow some discussions among Hy6 users, they remind me of V users ... devoted to the square ... and they keep wishing for a 56 X 56 sensor DB. I wonder how many years it takes before it's clear that nostalgic notion isn't going to happen?

    Frankly, I'd love a Hy6 and 60 or 80 meg back, with a decent range of AF lenses, to work along with my Leica S2P ... that would be my "dream Team". However, when romance meets reality, I know it's a pipe dream. There is nothing that I do or shoot, that my H4D/60 can't do, and in some cases do better ... I may not have a deep affection for the H like I already have for the S2, had for the V, or presumably could for a Rollei ... but all that evaporates when I'm intensely working and the camera becomes invisible with-in the creative and shooting process. I'd bet many Phase One camera users could echo that reality. Admiring one's tools and getting the job done are two different things, and admiration for one's tools grows when it consistently and reliably gets the job done ... with strong behind the scenes support and even rental back-ups if necessary. My S2P was replaced literally over-night when an issue cropped up, Hassey tech services has solved every issue I've had to date with-in hours. I know MFD, and to think no issue will ever arise is really losing touch with reality IMO.

    I stand by my opinion that bigger camera's like Hy6 (as sophisticated as it may be) are increasingly going to become exotic choices that "feed the need" of the past for those that love that sort of thing ... and sleeker, smaller, faster, more integrated, more versatile, more innovative MFD systems will forge the future.

    But at least the Hy6 (or to a lesser degree the V or RZ) are choices, rather than none.

    -Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Missing smiley. Would you like me to reedit my post?
    No
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    i like Gursky; no smileys needed
    Me too, very much so, although his Rhein II or whatever it was called which recently sold for a perverse sum, is one of my least favorites of his.
    Last edited by carstenw; 31st December 2011 at 04:32.
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Speaking of Nostalgia and Ludditism why do you guys all agree the Hy6 is the "best MF camera ever"? What can it do that the Contax 645 cannot do? I ask as am seriously considering what any digital camera can do that the Contax 645 cannot do? Yes it is just another legacy product in the ongoing great march forward but so is Walker Evans, William Eggleston et al. Maybe newer is not always better?

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    It is somewhat more advanced than the Contax 645 (which I also own). It has spot metering in every viewfinder, for example, focus trap, but for me the big draw is its ability to do 6x6 as well as host a digital back. There are also many more lenses for it, and much more system around it (bellows, flash accessories, and so on).

    I wouldn't call Walker Evans and William Eggleston "legacy products", btw. A camera goes out of date, or loses support, a photographer not.
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    What I find interesting when you follow some discussions among Hy6 users, they remind me of V users ... devoted to the square ... and they keep wishing for a 56 X 56 sensor DB. I wonder how many years it takes before it's clear that nostalgic notion isn't going to happen?

    Frankly, I'd love a Hy6 and 60 or 80 meg back, with a decent range of AF lenses, to work along with my Leica S2P ... that would be my "dream Team". However, when romance meets reality, I know it's a pipe dream. There is nothing that I do or shoot, that my H4D/60 can't do, and in some cases do better ... I may not have a deep affection for the H like I already have for the S2, had for the V, or presumably could for a Rollei ... but all that evaporates when I'm intensely working and the camera becomes invisible with-in the creative and shooting process. I'd bet many Phase One camera users could echo that reality. Admiring one's tools and getting the job done are two different things, and admiration for one's tools grows when it consistently and reliably gets the job done ... with strong behind the scenes support and even rental back-ups if necessary. My S2P was replaced literally over-night when an issue cropped up, Hassey tech services has solved every issue I've had to date with-in hours. I know MFD, and to think no issue will ever arise is really losing touch with reality IMO.

    I stand by my opinion that bigger camera's like Hy6 (as sophisticated as it may be) are increasingly going to become exotic choices that "feed the need" of the past for those that love that sort of thing ... and sleeker, smaller, faster, more integrated, more versatile, more innovative MFD systems will forge the future.

    But at least the Hy6 (or to a lesser degree the V or RZ) are choices, rather than none.

    -Marc
    Well put. You are probably right about future trends and the sober thoughts about service.
    The idea of the lengthy post was to point out that in a few ways, the system could be considered an evolution of the V, updated some 20+ years later. At least that's how it feels here - but its a position sure to gather few friends in either V or 6008 land. The beloved virtues of the V - its modular, flexible, systems approach with extensive backwards compatibility - were not apparent in other contemporary systems such as the H and S2, although they have different merits. Sweet spots (wherever they are found) are hard to give up!

    Your points about the complexity of the electronics has truth - certainly for a pro. One remembers that pros used to carry redundant gear for this reason, but with the $ this stuff costs, its hard to load up that way.

    In any case, Happy New Years!

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    Speaking of Nostalgia and Ludditism why do you guys all agree the Hy6 is the "best MF camera ever"? What can it do that the Contax 645 cannot do? I ask as am seriously considering what any digital camera can do that the Contax 645 cannot do? Yes it is just another legacy product in the ongoing great march forward but so is Walker Evans, William Eggleston et al. Maybe newer is not always better?

    Every camera has room for improvement. The Hy6 is more "fully featured" than the Contax, and a very different type of camera, larger body, different ergonomics, etc.

    We still have a steady, loyal Contax user base. I was testing an IQ160 on our Contax last week. It had been a while, and it brought back those warm feelings again.

    For me, it's about what I like from each camera, what does each have to offer, and what will be the nagging things missing or poorly implemented that I will regret.

    With the Contax, I like the lenses, the dense, metal feel of the body, it's minimalist feel and approach, and perhaps most of all, the gentle feel and sound of the shutter. Often it's a combination of the big things and (more than we realize) the little things that come together which propel our choice. Sorry that it is out of development. But that doesn't mean it does not merit consideration as a camera platform for a user.



    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

  43. #93
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Me too, very much so, although his Rhein II or whatever it was called which recently sold for a perverse sum, is one of my least favorites of his.
    The original image apparently contained bikers, walkers and a building. All digitally removed.

  44. #94
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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Yes, there is a video on youtube or vimeo which shows the location.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    The idea of the lengthy post was to point out that in a few ways, the system could be considered an evolution of the V, updated some 20+ years later.
    This is also the reason why I placed an order for a Hy6. I see it as a replacement for the Hasselblad V system, as a modern version of the V.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    Speaking of Nostalgia and Ludditism why do you guys all agree the Hy6 is the "best MF camera ever"? What can it do that the Contax 645 cannot do?
    I sold my Contax 645 2 years ago. Excellent camera. I kept my H1 and bought a digital back for it. Two reasons: 1) more H mount backs available on the used market 2) mediocre autofocus of the Contax 645. If you manually focus the Contax 645 is still one of the best cameras. The Hy6 has all the conveniences of a modern system plus the ability to shoot 6x6 film. As such I believe it is pretty unique.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Anyway, I am always watching this space with curiousity, it does have some of the characteristics of a soap opera....

    Contax 645 also has bellows and flash accessories but maybe the Hy6 has more of them?

    I wouldn't call Walker Evans and William Eggleston "legacy products", btw. A camera goes out of date, or loses support, a photographer not.

    To tell the truth Carsten, I often wonder if I myself am out of date and losing support. It is a bit like the spin cycle on a washing machine that seems to come and go according to where I am in my current project cycle.

    As for real photogs, true Walker Evans is still a well-known brand but how about Carleton E. Watkins, Anne W. Brigman, Eikoh Hosoe and Clarence John Laughlin who was known as the "Baudelaire of the Bayous" and considered to be the foremost exponent of the 1930s French Surrealist movement...

    BTW excuse this detour from the topic

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Gursky is fantastic, but it should also be noted that he shoots with a Linhof and scans his negatives.

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Marc,
    Let's hope that neither the Hy6/AFi or the S2 are 'dead ends'! When I had my DMR, I never thought Leica would kill the R system. Great camera as I'm sure the S2 is, however I'm still a bit put off from buying into another leica system since I don't trust they'll be kind. Stop and look at it - do you know for sure Leica will update the S2 with a new sensor or complete the lens line up? Probably as good a chance that someone will provide an updated back for the Hy6 in the future (we just got the AFi-ii 12 last year which is still available). Still the Hy6 path lets you default back to film and there's a plethora of legacy lenses available.

    Eric

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Regarding the contax 645... I looked at it before deciding on the Rollei 6008AF long ago. It has some nice features but I found the viewfinder dim and tiny in comparison to the Rollei, the AF slower than an old volkwagon bus, and the lenses while many are fast and sharp, render in a way as to say, "this is a photo not reality" with their chromatic doublets and hard edged aperture shapes in the bokeh. Most of the zeiss lenses from that vintage also have difficult distortion profiles to correct. Some of these older zeiss lenses are available in Rollei mounts but there also is the choice of the newer optical designs from schneider too.

    Eric

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    Re: Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    Contax 645 also has bellows and flash accessories but maybe the Hy6 has more of them?
    It has more different macro lenses (90, 120, 150 dedicated, reverse mount adapter with electronic contacts), and so on. If you are interested in knowing more, there is a great site with lots of details here: http://www.rolleiflexpages.com/

    To tell the truth Carsten, I often wonder if I myself am out of date and losing support. It is a bit like the spin cycle on a washing machine that seems to come and go according to where I am in my current project cycle.
    Tongue in cheek again Time to refresh then! Get a new camera, shoot a different style, switch from digital to film or vice versa, etc.
    Carsten - Website

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