all hassey (0r any user, since H does suggest this) had to do was crop the 50 sensor to sq, reducing the sq size to 40 or so. much more res that that would stretch the C lens ability anyway. no need for cables, rotation, etc. Then price the CV50 at a reasonable point. doing this to the CV39 was losing to much, but the 50...
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Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them.
- Thread starter neil
- Start date
vieri
Well-known member
Carsten, I am ready to spend more if need be and if the extra money will go into something worth - however, what I was talking about was a general business idea in order to sell better, not what "I" specifically want
Plus, Leaf - after selling the R backs for a little bit more than their non-R counterparts for a time - now sells the Aptus II 10R & 12R for exactly the same price as the non-R backs. Imagine if Hasselblad will announce the CFV-50 Revolving back: "Now with a revolving sensor, and for the same price as the old back", that would make it instantly appealing, add a trade-in program where you can exchange your CFV-50 for the new one for say 1-2K euro and you got a winner.Fair enough. If you found the H is better for your kind of work and your particular way of shooting by all means, dump the V. For me, regarding both, I'm sure I'd still be better served with the V system. I always shot on a tripod when using the V camera. For on tripod photography, the manual "everything" camera works better. The H camera is pretty much an auto everything camera. I know that you can set everything to manual, but this is the problem. You have to do the extra step and remember what mode you are, adjust accordingly, etc. On-tripod photography not necessarily means slow. That's why you have to physically feel the controls and operate them always in the same manner. Only a full manual camera can provide this. As in cars, feedback is very important.
When I needed speed, mobility and convenience over the other things, that's when I went "auto-everything" with the auto slr. Using 2 really different systems (I believe) provided me with 2 different perspectives and workflows that helped refresh my photography morning to evening, day to day.
The H camera operation philosophy is more akin to an SLR than to the traditional medium format camera which by the way, is more akin to operating a large format. I understand that if you strive for top IQ from weddings and documentation, the H, the S2 and the Pentax is the way to go. My market is not there. Dslr's provide me with excellent quality at a lower cost.
These days I only shoot with a dslr. I missed the difference of the V system. I don't mean the IQ, I mean the workflow and the difference in the results. In the studio I found that nothing beats the natural ease for communicating with the sitter when working with the waist level finder. There's some magic there. Across more than two decades many sitters mentioned this without me mentioning it first.
Happy holidays
Eduardo
When I needed speed, mobility and convenience over the other things, that's when I went "auto-everything" with the auto slr. Using 2 really different systems (I believe) provided me with 2 different perspectives and workflows that helped refresh my photography morning to evening, day to day.
The H camera operation philosophy is more akin to an SLR than to the traditional medium format camera which by the way, is more akin to operating a large format. I understand that if you strive for top IQ from weddings and documentation, the H, the S2 and the Pentax is the way to go. My market is not there. Dslr's provide me with excellent quality at a lower cost.
These days I only shoot with a dslr. I missed the difference of the V system. I don't mean the IQ, I mean the workflow and the difference in the results. In the studio I found that nothing beats the natural ease for communicating with the sitter when working with the waist level finder. There's some magic there. Across more than two decades many sitters mentioned this without me mentioning it first.
Happy holidays
Eduardo
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KeithL
Well-known member
I loved my V series cameras, loved the format and used them for more years than I care to remember. I sold the lot within a week or two of first using the H series.
My V and H series cameras were/are permanently bolted to a tripod.
That's strange, mine is pretty much a manual everything camera.
It's simple, just leave it set how you want it.
Funny, when last I looked both the V and H series were SLRs. Neither the V series or the H series are anything like akin to operating a large format camera.
Neither is mine.
Three years on from changing to the H series and I still haven't had a moments regret; simply the most versatile and rewarding system I've ever used.
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Hey, maybe they will do that ... who knows? I doubt it.Carsten, I am ready to spend more if need be and if the extra money will go into something worth - however, what I was talking about was a general business idea in order to sell better, not what "I" specifically want
How much is a Leaf Aptus-IIR V mount in the 50 meg range? How does it compare to the Price of a CFV/50?
BTW, it would take a bit to engineer that new CFV, and you can't leave the LCD as it is either. All for the same price?
It seems ill advised to chase after a large base comprised of a few dedicated and well heeled old-school users that may spring for a $25K to $30K back. I seriously doubt there are herds of Hasselblad V users that picked up their camera for $800 that are clamoring for a $25K to $30K digital back.
Meanwhile, those resources that were spent on the past, deplete those ear-marked for the future.
The R&D spent on the CFV was probably negligible in comparison ... The CFV/16 and 39 were simply a revamped CF and CF-II backs ... and the CFV/50 used the sensor from the H3D/50. So it isn't quite the same as Leica needing to cut the R altogether.
The difference now is that with the end of the CF backs, there are no models to spread the CFV R&D over.
Besides, if there was such a driving need to rotate the back on the V camera, why didn't the CF-II backs sell like hotcakes? .... they could be rotated.
Oddly, Leica has become the poster child for looking to the future and letting go of the past. Seems to be working.
Frankly, I saw where this seemed to all be going, only one V camera, less and less lenses available, and no new ones in the pipeline. No AF, No meter, The death of the excellent 200 series, discontinued CF line of DBs, etc.
Of course it will retain it's devotees, just like the Contax 645 did ... but for me it was time to wake up and smell the Vs burning ... it's a dead-end system for what the future begs for ... and will get.
But that's just me ... an ex-devotee that's now glad he got out while the getting was good. But the money all went to a good home ... in Solms Germany :ROTFL:
-Marc
You are right. I agree, they shouldn't be so uniform.
What drove 645 format was the increased ability of a smaller media to perform at a larger scale. Now its 80 meg. and still 645.
I'm most certainly FOR a broad base of selections and form factors. What I question is holding onto old designs made for the film era. They are big and bulky, and everything for them is big and bulky.
The only reason one would want a rotating sensor is for old square or 6X7 formats that are simply to damned big to rotate. Or cameras that weren't designed to be rotated like the V.
I actually support the notion of different form factors for choice ... which is why I now have a S2 rather than a V system. The H4D/60 stays mostly locked down on a tripod, and 80% of the work is commercial assignments, like product and industrial, and is shot tethered.
IMO, what is needed are more NEW designs for the digital age ... ground up like the S2, only compatible with the new lenses and coming backs.
-Marc
If you didn't care for the H3D (not the same as a H4D), then I'd be sure to try the Mamiya 645 before making any brash moves. Just sayin'
However, IF I were looking for a back primarily for Tech camera use, I'd go straight for one of the Phase One IQs ... and get it in the mount for the SLR camera that best fits your needs.
-Marc
The Leaf backs can be ordered in almost any camera mount ... the CFV fits one. Economy of scale, you do the math.Marc, I have to disagree with you. Wanting support for the V system has nothing to do with being a luddite or against technology's development; just makes a lot of business sense, whilst Hasselblad's choices since they got digital apparently didn't, if one sees their results compared to those of Phamiya; think about their position on open vs closed system and the various turns on that issue, not last the H4X (finally!) but with the bizarre decision to sell it only to H1/H2 updaters (why oh why!?!?), the development of the 28 for cropped sensors not foreseeing that sensors would get bigger (no Einstein needed to figure that one out), etc. This has nothing to do with the quality of their cameras and products, which are great; it has everything to do with their management and business decisions.
So, back to the OP's point, making the existing CFV 50 a rotating back, leaving the trigger mechanism where it is (or getting rid of it, a cable solution works better anyway in practice - though less elegant aesthetically - than the one they have now), and keeping it at the same price the CFV sells now would make for almost no R&D costs and would sell a ton - even if for some years only as you say, maybe, which is however debatable IMO. With that money, develop whatever technology you like for the H, while keeping two different lines of cameras alive in the meantime. The V system per se - I mean, a simple box with various prisms/backs/etc - is still a very competitive one IMHO for a lot of application where AF is not needed; plus, it's a fact that the V is the most popular MF system out there as far as units sold historically and bodies/lenses available on the market.
Not supporting it completely? Of course I see your point on that, in fact I think that not supporting it completely and just moving on would have been an acceptable choice, a poor one IMHO but a sound choice compare to what they actually did (look at what Leica did with the R, not dissimilar, and how it did end after the Module R: lot of unhappy users there); to keep supporting it as they are doing now, on the other end, with a back that is basically unusable on the very camera it has been designed to work with (unless you only shoot in landscape all the time!), makes no sense at all.
One last thing worth thinking about: if what I said above wouldn't make any sense, why do you think Leaf invested in developing and building the R backs in V mount?
-Marc
carstenw
Active member
Sadly not in Rolleiflex mount (the Leaf backs), at least not the newer, more interesting backs. I would be quite interested in getting a back for the 6008 system.
You make some good points about the V system, and I am finally, finally ready to agree with you about the desirability of the V system as a basis for digital explorations. Some will want it, and I regret that Hasselblad was never able to make a nice, large square sensor back for fans, but I guess that is just the economics of a company getting out of one system nearly too late, and investing in a new one. The CFV16 will always be a classic, I guess, just too bad the sensor is so small. A 48x48mm sensor would have been great, even with only 30-40MP.
I did for a while foster the notion that the 200-series could have been a good base for an alternative system, but having bought one, I was surprised how quirky it was, with metering only usable with the loupe up in the waist-level finder, a choice between ISO from a film back OR communication with a digital back (and a permanent choice at that), and that weird menu system, and difficult-to-read LCD. Throw in the off-centre strap lugs, and at some point it just dawned on me that this is not a modern 500C/M, but a quirky camera made quirkier by the addition of some features which didn't fit all that well. I have made the decision to sell it, as good as it is in its sweet spot.
I have now bought a 6008i instead, and although it is a bit bulky and not as elegant, it is far more modern with a very intuitive control scheme and modern electronics. Too bad the company which brought it out had terrible marketing and international distributors, and worse financials. I hope that DHW can stay healthy and maybe nurse the Hy6 back to full viability. Hope, but don't expect. That is the system I wanted the V to grow into, but Rollei never had the marketing power or success of Hasselblad, so I guess there was no way from here to there, really.
I like the Contax 645 rather a lot and just can't seem to part with mine, but other than that, I am not fond of any other 645 camera. The Mamiya just never appealed to me personally, although it has grown into a good system, and having had a good try at an H4D-40 recently, I had to accept that this camera is also not for me, although I can see that it is a very flexible and competent system, very strong for professional use. I don't love it though, it feels like a tool to me, but not a favorite tool, just a competent tool which does the job, yet doesn't earn my love. This is my personal reaction to it though, and is not really relevant to anyone else.
That leaves me with very little choice. Hy6/AFi with Leaf back is one option, S2 is another, although that is just too much money for what is after all just a hobby for me. I could swing around ten grand, but not twenty or thirty, not with a good conscience. If I could just sell a few large photos, then maybe I could justify it, but that isn't the case, I am just not set up that way for now.
Anyway, I am always watching this space with curiousity, it does have some of the characteristics of a soap opera
Interesting discussion. I actually just placed an order for a Hy6 to replace my V system. In my eyes the Hy6 is a more modern version of the V system. The idea is to shoot film initially. If I really like the system I will start looking for a digital back as well. For the V system I currently have the CFV back. Next to that I have a H4X with a P30+ back.
About DHW, they seem to be doing reasonably well. As a lot of other companies they are mostly focusing on China and surroundings. They have a distributor there called Livecoal:
http://livecoal.com.hk/page/22/
and their dealer network seems to be growing:
http://livecoal.com.hk/dealer/ALL/
I really hope it works out for them.
Joris.
vieri
Well-known member
Nope, wrong. The Leaf R backs are available ONLY in Hasselblad V mount. Hence, sales generated ONLY by the V mount backs need to be high enough to both recuperate the R&D money involved in the development of the R mechanism and - possibly - to make a profit.
vieri
Well-known member
Leaf Aptus II 10R, 56 Mp, 18.995 euro
Hasselblad CFV-50, 50 Mp, 13.020 euro
just for scale, the Aptus 8, 40 Mp, goes for 10.995 euro.
So you see, not that much of a difference once you put MP difference into play. I am sure Hasselblad can do a rotating back, 50 Mp, for 14-15K euro. About $18-19K US, not $25-30K; and we are not talking about users picking an $800 body, at least not only about these users; we are talking about a user base of people, pros and amateurs alike, with large systems and large investments in V body & lenses that would love to keep using the system they know and love with a functional DB, not an aborted design like the current CFV.
kuau
Workshop Member
In regards to Hy6/Afi, I couldn't be happier. I realize I was buying into a system with a very uncertain future, yet at the same time, there is something to say about having a rotating sensor, which I think is a must have today. I use this feature almost everyday whether I am shooting with my Hy6 or Sinar arTec, I just attach my AFI back, and that's it, never have to worry about removing the back and rotating it or rotating my Hy6 / arTec.
I hope in the future Phase comes out with a similar technology that Leaf created.
In the mean time I will keep shooting my Hy6/AFI/arTec system and to me I think I have the best of both worlds. :thumbs:
I hope in the future Phase comes out with a similar technology that Leaf created.
In the mean time I will keep shooting my Hy6/AFI/arTec system and to me I think I have the best of both worlds. :thumbs:
OOPS! FYI, a little research always helps before being so declarativeNope, wrong. The Leaf R backs are available ONLY in Hasselblad V mount. Hence, sales generated ONLY by the V mount backs need to be high enough to both recuperate the R&D money involved in the development of the R mechanism and - possibly - to make a profit.
http://www.leaf-photography.com/products_aptus212r.asp
Scroll down to the Cameras Supported. They are all there: Phase One, Mamiya 645s, Mamiya RZs and RB, Hassey H and V, Fuji GX, Bronica, Contax.
-Marc
vieri
Well-known member
Exactly, a little more research would help you too. Check out on Leaf price list, you can probably get it from your friendly Leaf dealer or I can send it to you directly. The Only R back offered for sale is, in fact, the one in the V mount.OOPS! FYI, a little research always helps before being so declarative
http://www.leaf-photography.com/products_aptus212r.asp
Scroll down to the Cameras Supported. They are all there: Phase One, Mamiya 645s, Mamiya RZs and RB, Hassey H and V, Fuji GX, Bronica, Contax.
-Marc
OOPS! The page you linked, in the "Specification" tab, is the general Leaf specification spreadsheet for all backs, as you can see, is not R-specific; even if they probably "theoretically" could support any mount for the R, they actually sell it only in V mount...I think it is unrealistic to expect Hasselblad to make a back with the features of a $25,000 back from Leaf and sell it for about the same price as the current CFV/50. Really?
The Leaf Aptus 8 you mentioned doesn't come in a R version, so it's out of context to this V rotating sensor discussion.
BTW, I just realized that the CFV/39 is now discontinued ... only the CFV/50 now. Leaf has 8 different backs you can put on a Hasselblad V camera, two with rotating sensors ... and Hasselblad has one. I think Hasselblad is moving in the right direction.
-Marc
carstenw
Active member
Really? The mount is really the least trouble of all of the design, considering that the back, sensor and rotating sensor assembly are already designed. Why would someone not take advantage of that? Hasselblad wouldn't, because it would be a one-system back, but Leaf certainly should.Leaf has 8 different backs you can put on a Hasselblad V camera, two with rotating sensors ... and Hasselblad has one. I think Hasselblad is moving in the right direction.
So, that sounds fairly misleading if not stupid. In fact it is hard to believe.Exactly, a little more research would help you too. Check out on Leaf price list, you can probably get it from your friendly Leaf dealer or I can send it to you directly. The Only R back offered for sale is, in fact, the one in the V mount.
So if I wanted a Leaf 10R or 12R back to use on a technical camera so I don't have to remove and rotate the back out in the field, I'd have to buy a V mount no matter what SLR MF camera system I already have, because V mount is the only R version they sell. Really?
Talk about missing an opportunity. With that restriction I'd never buy a Leaf R back.
Marc
vieri
Well-known member
Marc, read again. The Aptus 10 sells for about $24K AT 56 MP. The CFV-50 sells for $16K AT 50 MP. I mentioned the Aptus 8 as a reference to better situate a possible 50 Mp price between the two Aptus, the 56Mp & the 40Mp; IMO there isn't much of a difference, and IMO Hasselblad could sell a R version of the CFV-50 for what I mentioned in my previous post, TAKING THE MP DIFFERENCE INTO ACCOUNT. Think about it with a non-prejudiced mind, if you canI think it is unrealistic to expect Hasselblad to make a back with the features of a $25,000 back from Leaf and sell it for about the same price as the current CFV/50. Really?
The Leaf Aptus 8 you mentioned doesn't come in a R version, so it's out of context to this V rotating sensor discussion.
BTW, I just realized that the CFV/39 is now discontinued ... only the CFV/50 now. Leaf has 8 different backs you can put on a Hasselblad V camera, two with rotating sensors ... and Hasselblad has one. I think Hasselblad is moving in the right direction.
-Marc
, and you'll see that it makes sense.Exactly. Leaf has 8 different backs you can put on a Hasselblad V camera, two with rotating sensors, and Hasselblad has only (a crippled) one. I think Hasselblad is moving in the wrong direction, seeing that the V is actually Hasselblad own system! :ROTFL:
Anyway, whatever you say Marc, we shall agree to disagree and I am off this futile polemic now, since we each keep repeating pretty much the same things over and over. A very Happy New Year to you!