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Hasselblad CFV-39 digital back and a missed opportunity to sell thousands of them.

neil

New member
Interested in peoples thoughts on this.

In Japan there are tens of thousands of photographers who are retired and own a Hasselblad V camera. They bought them when they retired before digital took a hold. It use to be the thing to have. They would be in there seventies or older now. Which in Japan is regarded as still quite young ! They have money and would be able to spend around 900,000 Yen ( 11,550 US ) on their hobby. But unfortunately the Hasselblad CFV-39 was priced around 2,000,000 Yen (25,000 US) in Japan. Way too much... and way different from the price in other countries. If it would have been priced around 900,000 Yen and made available in the usual camera stores, Hasselblad would have sold thousands of CFV 39 digital backs.

There is something selling like hot cakes in Japan ( well sort of ) and that is a device called a Pentax 645D medium format camera. That is because they got the price right. Street price around 700,000 Yen. The camera is sold in normal camera shops and they got the target audience correct.

While walking around the usual camera stores in Tokyo last week, I saw something very interesting in at least three of the camera stores. Phase One P30+ in Hasselblad V mount priced around 950,000 Yen. Available over the counter at the shop. Only trouble is it does not say Hasselblad on it and not sure how the devoted Hasselblad owners are going to feel about that, but you never know it just might catch on and Phase might just sell thousands of them. I think Phase One found the market and priced something appropriately here. They could do very well.
 

JorisV

New member
In the US the price for a new P30+ digital back is still $17K, completely unrealistic, especially with refurbished backs with warranty available for around $8-9K. The price in Japan, around $12K if I have calculated correctly, sounds like a much more realistic and appropriate price.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Simple answer is that NONE of the MFD companies understood that the real market to go for was MASS market- in effect they have ALWAYS been snobs in consumer terms.

The business model was based on smaller quantities (maybe 10K units world wide p.a) and a constant upgrade cycle - maintaining unrealistic high margins able to pay for the clip the ticket geographic based dealer network employed.

I can remember numerous posts made in forums - where I was literally laughed at by the 'professional photographers' for saying that the market would end up being run by well heeled amateur or enthusiasts.

This forum is n excellent example of where the market really is and I guess Phase One's PODAS ting directly addresses this segment.

Pentax is a consumer based company and if it had enough MF lenses available would be enjoying even more success than it is today.

Hasselblad really goofed - they have the NAME and the exiting user base in mass market - they just IGNORED it in price terms - really sad and stupid management and strategy actually - funny even.

Now Leica will capture slowly and inexorably the high end consumer market - and Phase One and the rest can fight over the (relatively) small pro market and the enthusiast market.

However only the Japanese companies have the consumer / mass market culture to bring this tech to the market- and they are limited by no lens platform and teh need t be able to make chips that talk to out of date camera bodies.

Pete
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Funny, I have four lenses for my Pentax and a whole bunch more I can buy. And the Pentax body is as up to date as any modern DSLR.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Funny, I have four lenses for my Pentax and a whole bunch more I can buy. And the Pentax body is as up to date as any modern DSLR.
I am sure the Pentax is not only as up to date as any DSLR body - but no doubt better than anything else anyone could buy - sadly your obviously correct and immaculatey conceived point of view is rather irrelevant to the OP question.

However sisnce every thread is about YOU and YOUR Pentax - please tell me exactly how many lenses Pentax has released so far for this body? - I am figuring it adds up to one - I could be wrong though.:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Of course you can use older lenses of the Pentax - wonderful!!

Have a nice day

Pete
 

tjv

Active member
Has Pentax shipped their new "super wide" lens for sale yet? That would make two "digital" lenses. The 645D looks brilliant but everyone I know who owns one or has used one is crying out for lenses that meet the demands of the sensor. The second hand market seems to be hit and miss?

Back to the topic of the OP, Hasselblad seem to be between a rock and a hard place. If memory serves me correctly, Zeiss is not interested in building lenses for them anymore and the lenses that are available second had are often found to be getting rather sloppy – same story with Pentax here. I firmly believe if they had of made their CFV backs rotatable they would have captured a heck of a lot more customers who are hanging on to old kit, even if modern systems offer more in the way of AF, integration, etc.

And to be honest, I think 12K USD is way too much for a new P30+. It may be a great back and sensor, but it's a bit long in the tooth to justify that price point don't you think? At $10K it'd tempt more people, I'm sure. Package it for $12K with a body and lens and it's still way more that the Pentax but comparable to the current street price Hasselblad's H4D-31.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I am sure the Pentax is not only as up to date as any DSLR body

Pete
You are so right! I don't have sweep panorama nor those neat art filters! What am I to do to be a creative photographer?

And you are wrong. Pentax has released two new lenses with a third coming next year. Funny how no one complains about all the "old" lenses Mamiya still sells for their cameras nor the fact the Hasselblad keeps using higher resolution sensors, but never updates its lens line--putting "Digital" on them does not always make them new. I guess the old lenses that are really sharp on 645D really aren't sharp because the Pentax did not put "Digital" on the barrel--seeing I guess is not believing, got to have the marketing dept. chime in. And 6um pixels are so small only superduper lenses could work.

You have a great evening, champ.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Has Pentax shipped their new "super wide" lens for sale yet? That would make two "digital" lenses. The 645D looks brilliant but everyone I know who owns one or has used one is crying out for lenses that meet the demands of the sensor. The second hand market seems to be hit and miss?
I own and use a 645D. I am not crying out for more lenses and have not found a bad copy of a lens yet and they meet the demands of the sensor. And I know of a number of people using the new 25mm lens.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
The idea you drop prices and increase sale to make up the loss or better does not always work. Pricing for photographic equipment is harder than basing it on material/production costs. Sure companies make mistakes, but they also understand the business better than those on the outside.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
The discussion was about Hasselblad's missed opportunity with the CFV line of backs in Japan (in case you have forgotten - again)

I am glad Pentax is bringing out lenses that its client base is wanting - it is a company well capable of delivering what a larger market wants - 40 megapixels, a decent body and a range of lenses. Congratulations on your camera and I am happy that you are happy with your lenses.

The OP asked for opinions - I gave mine. Rather than start another one of your polemics - perhaps you can stick to the topic. As for business advice - mate I can assure you I don't need yours I do rather well myself and have done so for quite some time ;)

Cheers
Pete
 

vieri

Well-known member
The OP definitely makes a good point: pricing, in the DMF world like in any other, is of the essence if you want to earn market shares and/or increase the ones you already have. Digital backs are priced interestingly according to which area of the world you are in, but I find that most camera & photo related goods are - being an expatriate, I can easily compare prices in my adoptive country with those in my home country, plus there is the net allowing easy comparisons with US & Japanese prices for instance, and the result of such comparisons show a schizophrenic approach so to speak from manufacturers when it comes to pricing stuff :D

However, back to the case in point, where I really think Hasselblad has screwed up in their CFV line is their decision of using a non-revolving sensor as well as not allowing for the back to be mounted both horizontally and vertically. When one thinks that it supposedly is a back made for the V cameras, with which the use of a WLF is one of the core features, one wonders what were they thinking - either they think that the V customer base never shoots portraits, or they think that 100% of the V customer base use a prism finder, or they simply messed it up. This is why, in my personal situation, I will be getting an Aptus II 12R to use with my Tech camera and with my V system; way too many pixels for my need, 50-60 Mp would have been fine, but compared to the CFV-50 (among other features and stuff I don't particularly need):
- Rotating sensor, very useful on the Tech camera and fundamental on the V;
- Price not much higher than the CFV-50 once taking into account that Leaf offer competitive upgrades with old DMF gear while Hassy does not (get a Mamiya ZD camera for a song & trade it in for 22% of the Aptus price is a very interesting option);
- Much better UI than the Hassy, much better screen;
- etc.

I really think that Hasselblad would already have a winner if they made a back with rotating sensor and price it just right (the CFV is not priced bad here, actually); but, even better: I think they'd really sell like hot cakes if they'd make a back with a 56x56 mm square sensor, 40-50 Mp (no need for more), priced around 12K euro or 15K US.
 

carstenw

Active member
I think that Hasselblad did this the way they did because they don't want all this success with the CFV line. They want to sell a few units, keep some people happy, but they want the success to belong to the H line, partly because they still sell the bodies and lenses, and partly because if you make a new camera and the old one sells better, you look bad.
 

vieri

Well-known member
I think that Hasselblad did this the way they did because they don't want all this success with the CFV line. They want to sell a few units, keep some people happy, but they want the success to belong to the H line, partly because they still sell the bodies and lenses, and partly because if you make a new camera and the old one sells better, you look bad.
Possible - however, if so it doesn't really sound like a sound business strategy to me, both in general and in particular; I might be the only one in the world that ended up buying neither the CFV nor their H line, but I don't think I am; instead, I think that they lost many customers like me, either to a different brand back with the V or to a different brand altogether: I mean, if a customer has to give up to his or her old system completely, he or she might as well go with Phase or maybe recently with Pentax, and this is what I think appears most people did; hence the success Phase is enjoying and the not-so-hot times Hasselblad is living in. The transition from film to digital left a lot of players dead or drastically downsized, and saw the emerging of new players (Phase/Leaf specifically in the MF arena); IMO lack of vision on some manufacturers' part and a good vision on the part of some others is what brought to today's scenario. See for instance Hasselblad's dance with open system/close system/partially open system again/CFV yes, no, not fully exploited/etc. versus Phase's very clear strategy and very determined pursuing of that strategy - please note that I am not a Phase fanboy, in fact I just sold all my Phase gear (and I had a pretty large investment in that) to use a Leaf back in V mount on my tech camera and on my V system, and I would have bought an Hassy competitive back in a second if they had revolving sensor (or even a back that could be mounted in both directions, at least!). I surely hope Hasselblad will get their act together soon - the more successful players in the DMF arena, the better for everybody :D
 

carstenw

Active member
I know what you mean, I had the same feeling with the CFV line, but Hasselblad, like all these companies, is not really set up for large-scale success of anything, and for better or for worse, Hasselblad has chosen to focus narrowly and deeply on the 645 form factor. Realistically, that probably doesn't lose them a lot of business compared to working closer with tech cameras, and so on.

W.r.t. the CFV backs, these companies just have a few people working on these backs, and if they started selling tens of thousands, they would have to change things around a lot to even be able to keep up. And then after a couple of years of this, it would peter out completely as they caught up with demand, and then they would have to ramp down again.

A completely different strategy is needed on Hasselblad's part, and Phase One/Leaf/Sinar as well, if they want a larger scale business, but these companies are so deeply invested in their current systems that I cannot even imagine when they would bring out the replacement systems, never mind re-thinking the complete business.

While there may have been an initial move from Hasselblad to Phase, I think those days are long gone, and while Phase has more compelling backs, the lenses and the rest of the Hasselblad system is stronger, and many pros still choose Hasselblad. I don't know exactly why, but it seems that hobbyists tend to go for the Phase cameras. Maybe hobbyists are more concerned with the colour of the camera :)

Personally, if I get back into MFD, I would either pick up a Phase back for my Contax, or a Hy6 and a Leaf back.
 

vieri

Well-known member
...

Personally, if I get back into MFD, I would either pick up a Phase back for my Contax, or a Hy6 and a Leaf back.
So you see, not a Hasselblad H ;) Seriously, I was considering getting a back for the Contax as well, to side my tech camera, but I decided to keep my V instead due to different reasons: both being dead systems, and I not needing particularly AF capabilities, my reasoning has been that the V definitely has a lot more support both in terms of repairing facilities, availability of spares/bodies/lenses, the V is a much better developed system, Hassy is still around and might some day decide to give us a new WA or something for the V (dreaming is free, isn't it) while with Contax that is not even a dream, etc etc. Plus, I'd have to buy a Contax system from scratch - easy enough, but it's still money that I don't need to spend staying with the V.

As far as Hassy H being a better system than Phase, well I find it debatable; both have strength and weaknesses. Phase has the better backs, Hassy the better AF; the lens lineup, well, Hassy is weaker on the WA (that 28 working only on crop was really a genius move), better on the portrait side, but Phase is picking up speed with all the Schneider lenses; Hassy has more lenses, but Phase has enough for a pro to be able to work anyway, plus a higher flash sync for those interested. Plus, Phase is developing forward at a faster pace than Hassy, and the more the revenue scale will pend in their direction, the more this will be true and so on. So, I think if it's true that more pros are still using Hasselblad, I think it's due to the rental channels being more rich in Hasselblad equipment (historical reasons, maybe), but this might and probably will change as well.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
So why did you bring up Pentax?

BTW, I was nOt commenting on your business, but the camera industry which the OP was discussing.

Cheers

The discussion was about Hasselblad's missed opportunity with the CFV line of backs in Japan (in case you have forgotten - again)

I am glad Pentax is bringing out lenses that its client base is wanting - it is a company well capable of delivering what a larger market wants - 40 megapixels, a decent body and a range of lenses. Congratulations on your camera and I am happy that you are happy with your lenses.

The OP asked for opinions - I gave mine. Rather than start another one of your polemics - perhaps you can stick to the topic. As for business advice - mate I can assure you I don't need yours I do rather well myself and have done so for quite some time ;)

Cheers
Pete
 

fotografz

Well-known member
You are so right! I don't have sweep panorama nor those neat art filters! What am I to do to be a creative photographer?

And you are wrong. Pentax has released two new lenses with a third coming next year. Funny how no one complains about all the "old" lenses Mamiya still sells for their cameras nor the fact the Hasselblad keeps using higher resolution sensors, but never updates its lens line--putting "Digital" on them does not always make them new. I guess the old lenses that are really sharp on 645D really aren't sharp because the Pentax did not put "Digital" on the barrel--seeing I guess is not believing, got to have the marketing dept. chime in. And 6um pixels are so small only superduper lenses could work.

You have a great evening, champ.
Well, Hassey released totally new lenses optimized for digital: the high performance HCD28 and HCD 35-90 (which wasn't adding a "D" to some existing lens) ... and has re-done the HC50-II, 120-II and 150N ... (the 100 and 210 do not need redone). One look at the MTFs for the 50-II shows the obvious improvement, which is born out in using one on a H4D/60. The lens left in need of a make-over is the HC35.

So you are 95% incorrect in your statement ;)

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
The CFV is an extension of the CF line of Hasselblad backs that fit almost anything with an iAdapter ... all of which are now discontinued.

The CFV was designed to be the only back not needing a sync cord, instead using the advance mechanism in the V camera bodies to activate the back ... making it impossible to rotate. (The CF backs could be rotated on a V with the proper iAdapter).

I think the CFV was originally intended to placate square V shooters with the CFV/16, and that was the last production square sensor. Adding the 39 and 50 with the auto crop to a square was a way to still shoot the square, and increase resolution. Dedicated V users are used to cropping a portrait from a square.

If you wanted to use Zeiss, but wanted to easily shoot a rectangle in portrait mode, they made the CF adapter for the H camera. IMO, that helped those with Zeiss V lenses migrate to the H and eventually get the AF H lenses.

I think Hasselblad will concentrate on the H and ride out the CFV as is as long as there is any demand, but hoping demand remains limited so as to not take the production eye off the "H ball" ... maintaining prices is one way to do that. I think when new CVF prices start falling it'll be to liquidate stocks and discontinue it for something else, if anything else.

I disagree that Hassey is weaker on the W/A ... the 28mm is a D lens but works on a 1.1X and only reduces the H4D/60 by a sliver ... but all the wides are leaf shutter which many prefer. The new HC 50-II is a spectacular update, and now one of the best lenses in the set.

The rest of the P1 Hassey debate is moot. It is what it is, until the next round. This was about the CFV, and that's what I addressed above with a few observations and opinions.

-Marc
 

neil

New member
That is a good point that Hasselblad may not be geared up to produce thousands of v mount digital backs. They will be aiming the manpower resources at the H system.

What surprised me about these companies is that they really are quiet small.
I am guessing, but probably less than one hundred factory employees.
A few wrong long term strategic decisions and that could be the end of the company.

In hasselblads case it seems that the xpan camera got them through some difficult times and then the H camera saved the company. Took around five years to develop.
That's a long time to pay for research and development before any money comes in the door.

I hope Hasselblad can do more with the historical brand name and get some more products for v system to sell. The high end hobby market in Asia can be quite nostalgic. That is why Leica sells so well in Asia. Hasselblad also have that name power so they need a product that can sell to that market.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
That is a good point that Hasselblad may not be geared up to produce thousands of v mount digital backs. They will be aiming the manpower resources at the H system.

What surprised me about these companies is that they really are quiet small.
I am guessing, but probably less than one hundred factory employees.
A few wrong long term strategic decisions and that could be the end of the company.

In hasselblads case it seems that the xpan camera got them through some difficult times and then the H camera saved the company. Took around five years to develop.
That's a long time to pay for research and development before any money comes in the door.

I hope Hasselblad can do more with the historical brand name and get some more products for v system to sell. The high end hobby market in Asia can be quite nostalgic. That is why Leica sells so well in Asia. Hasselblad also have that name power so they need a product that can sell to that market.
Apparently that is quite true. In the most recent issue of LFI, the owner of Leica stated that very fact ... China is a major growth market for them and much emphasis is being placed on expansion there.

I think the absolutely perfect way that Hasselblad made the CFV back to nostalgically match the V camera was ingenious. However, the price point to get a 50 meg CFV became a cross-roads for many users. For the same price, users could move to a H4D and pick-up a CF adapter for their Zeiss lenses and gain a TTL meter and focus confirmation.

Personally, I couldn't hack supporting two systems with the same basic form factor and sensor, nostalgic cosmetics or not. I then opted to swing all Hassey efforts to a H4D/60, and moved to the Leica S2 for a truly different form factor.

If there ever was a 56 X 56, 40-50 meg sensor in a CFV, I'd probably regret that decision immediately. Not going to happen. 645 is the digital machine, and that hasn't maxed out yet ... theoretically 100 meg is possible in a single shot ... and who knows what is on the drawing boards in terms of sensors, LCDs, in-camera engines, speed, elimination of mirrors, wifi, and all that Si-Fi stuff.

I think the HY6 spelled it out ... arguably one of the best MFD cameras ever designed ... but was still born, and never had the chance to be all it could be.

-Marc
 
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