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Thread: RZ67 & Long Exposure with DB

  1. #1
    sonar
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    RZ67 & Long Exposure with DB

    Hello experts- and Merry Christmas!

    I am very interested in either adapting my RZ67 Pro II to work with my P45, or getting a 'D' body for more compatibility. My main concern is the length of the exposures. According to Mamiya and Phase One's websites, the maximum exposure length you can achieve with a DB on the 'D' body is 60-seconds. I'm guessing this is because of the shutter dial, which only has a "B" setting that caps out at 60-seconds. Is there no way to use the camera in "T" mode using a digital back?

    I know that there is a long/multiple exposure cable for the Phase backs that you can use for manual cameras, which would presumably work with the Pro II (non-D) body, but is this cable necessary for the "D" version as well for longer than 60-second shots? And even then, will it work? Does the D body communicate with the back all the necessary information thereby making longer than 60-exposures simply impossible by virtue of the digital connection itself? In other words- does the 'D' camera override the override?

    If anyone shoots long exposure with an RZ67 I would love to hear about your technique/experience.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    sonar
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    Re: RZ67 & Long Exposure with DB

    Hello, just bumping my own original post to see if there is anyone out there who has an answer. Hello? Anyone?

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    Re: RZ67 & Long Exposure with DB

    Ryan, pleasure to see you on the forum! As promised I'm here to clear up the details for you. I'm posting this on forum so others can see the answer - so forgive me for first covering some of the basics that I know you are aware of (that others may not be). Please don't hesitate to call or email me directly for any clarification/followup. You have my cell!

    Technical Background
    A P45/P45+ requires two signals. When it sees the first signal it wakes up. It then exposes for the duration of the second signal. So a 120 second exposure requires a wakeup signal, followed by an exposure-signal that lasts 120 seconds.

    Diagram of this "2-shot architecture"
    ___Signal: [Beep]-----------------------------------[Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep]
    Response: [Back Wakes Up]-----------------------[Exposure Begins]------------------------[Exposure Ends]

    With Digital Bodies the two signals are provided entirely automatically. The user doesn't need to know or care what's going on - it "just works".

    With Dumb Bodies the second-signal is provided by the sync port of the lens while the wakeup signal is provided by the user using a dedicated wakeup-button-cable or using a Kapture Group 1-shot cable which provides the wakeup signal using the same cable that triggers the lens.

    With Semi-Digital bodies there are adapters made by Kapture Group or Phase One which provide a wakeup signal as well as the exposure signal.

    Digital Bodies:
    Phase One AF, DF | Mamiya AFD1/2/3, AF, DF | Hassy H1,H2, H4X | Contax 645AF | Mamiya RZ Pro IID | Hartblei

    Semi-Digital Bodies:
    Mamiya RZ Pro II, Fuji 680

    Dumb Bodies:
    All Tech Cameras (other than Hartblei), All View Cameras, All Home-Made Cameras (e.g. pinholes, holgas etc)

    Note that the [P40+, P65+, IQ backs, and all Leaf backs] do not require a wakeup signal. But none of those backs can exceed 2 minutes in exposure at room temperature. The rest of this response is specific to an M mount P45+.

    ===================

    The RZ Pro II vs. RZ Pro IID

    RZ Pro IID
    The [RZ Pro IID + Phase One Adapter for M Mount Back] qualifies as a "Digital" body. The adapter plate provides both the wakeup signal and the exposure signal. The just pushes the shutter release and it "just works".

    The caveat is that the Pro IID body will not provide a digital signal beyond 60 seconds. So even if you place the body in bulb and hold the shutter release for 2 minutes the second digital signal will end at 60 seconds and the system will stop exposing. In other words the digital interface "just works" for exposures 60 seconds or less - but doesn't work at all for exposures longer than that.

    The other caveat is that the Pro IID body normally only allows the shutter to be fired if a back is mounted and ready to expose. So solutions like our "Multishot/Long-Exposure Box" wouldn't normally work since they require the back to be "decoupled" from the body (and triggered independently) - turning it into a "dumb" body.

    But! The RZ Pro IID does have a "troubleshooting mode" on the shutter dial - this is the orange (rather than white or red position). When operating in the orange mode the electronic interface of the body is disengaged. This means that the back will receive no signals through the interface plate (neither the wakeup signal, nor the exposure-signal) - it becomes a "dumb body". In this mode the can fire without the back attached, but electronic shutter control does not work - the body will only fire at 1/400th of a second. HOWEVER, in this "troubleshooting mode" the T dial on the lens (which is purely mechanical) still works, and the flash sync port on the lens still works (since that is just a circuit which closes/opens based on the mechanical movement of the lens shutter).

    SO to expose for more than 60 seconds with an M mount back on a RZ Pro IID:
    - place the body in orange-dot "troubleshooting mode"
    - attach a wakeup cable to the back
    - run a sync cable from the back's multiport to the lens sync port
    - attach a LONG-throw cable release to the lens' cable-release-port
    - to capture an image: trigger the body, push the wakeup button, trigger the lens

    If that sounds complicated - it kind of is the first time. You have to attach two cables to the system, and to take a picture you have to push three separate buttons. Technically you could skip one of these steps, but I consider Mirror-Up to be non-optional for long exposures with the RZ (which has a big mirror). But once you've got the steps down it's pretty easy. And it works for any length of exposure.

    RZ Pro II (non D)
    There are adapters made by Leaf and Phase One for the M, H, and V mounts. However, only the Phase One V-mount Adapter provides a wakeup signal. So when using an M mount Phase One back which requires wakeup on an RZ Pro II (non D) you must wake the back up using a wakeup cable/button before every exposure. This makes such a setup impractical for portraits/fashion or just about anything that requires any level of spontaneity or hand-holding.

    Executive Summary:

    If you own a P45+ M mount and want to use an RZ to do both normal (handheld/spontaneous) photography as well as exposures longer than 60 seconds your best bet - by far - is an RZ Pro IID with the P1 M mount adapter plate. Normal photography "just works" (no cables, no hassle, just push the button). Exposures longer than 60 seconds require a wakeup cable, a sync cable, a cable release, and a flip of a switch - a minor hassle that will take <1 min to set up.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: RZ67 & Long Exposure with DB

    Superbly thorough info, Doug.

    Now the real question is: why is such information not provided in such clear fashion by the "official" Phase One website? Why do they rely on their dealers to document fundamental things like the compatibility of their own products?

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    Re: RZ67 & Long Exposure with DB

    Thanks Doug for the thorough and clear explanation, oh how I've hunted in the past about a DB for my RZII (non-D), and had to piece so many different explanations together to finally give up in my pursuit for a DB for my Mamiya.
    It now sits quietly in a Think Tank bag with 4 lenses

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    Re: RZ67 & Long Exposure with DB

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    Thanks Doug for the thorough and clear explanation, oh how I've hunted in the past about a DB for my RZII (non-D), and had to piece so many different explanations together to finally give up in my pursuit for a DB for my Mamiya.
    It now sits quietly in a Think Tank bag with 4 lenses
    Why'd you give up?? There are many options for you. Anything from a 22mp Leaf (with warranty) for $5k+adapter to an IQ180 for $44k+adapter.

    What do you mean "piece together" - weren't you able to get the information from a good dealer? We do this "hunt" with photographers all the time.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
    Phase One Partner of the Year
    Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

    National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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  7. #7
    sonar
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    Smile Re: RZ67 & Long Exposure with DB

    Thank you Doug! Man, what a frustrating but ultimately fruitful experience this has been trying to figure this out.

    For those interested I ended up trading with another photographer my Pro II for a Pro IID (and some cash), and ordering the appropriate adapter plate and sync cable (from Capture Integration) for long exposure work. The reason I went with the "D" version is just as Doug says, it makes a lot more sense for normal shooting, so now I have the option to do both.

    There is no definitive source on the internet for how to do this, and unfortunately the information on Phase One's website isn't correct about using an "M" mount on the Pro II (non-D) body. Nor is there ANY information about how to do longer than 60-second exposures with any system. So after exhausting all of my own searches, calling Phase One, calling Mamiya, and ultimately taking Doug's advice, I am finally up and running with my Pro IID system and a very glitchy P45 (which will be upgraded to a + soon).

    If anyone would like to ask me specific questions about my experience with this system in specific regards to long exposures, fire away. I should have a lot more experience with this in a few months time.

    Again, thank you Doug- you are indeed the expert on this stuff and I can't tell you how grateful I am that you broke this down for me.

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    Re: RZ67 & Long Exposure with DB

    Sorry about bringing this ghost back to life...
    Here is how ProIID plays with cables:

    RZ67ProIID
    Bulb mode (troubleshooting mode) - "TwoShot Pulse too short - should be max 1 sec" or "TwoShot Pulse too long - should be max 4 sec"
    Bulb mode (standard operational mode) - working fine though shutter appears to be firing in 1/125s (obviously dark frame in low light)
    Bulb mode (standard operational mode, lens set to "T") - no capture, back idling

    In addition, should back respond to button press on wake-up cable in some visual/audiable manner? No matter how much you press nothing happens, so I assume it doesn't notify on wake-up...

    PS I am sure I am doing something fundamentally wrong. I always been under impression that mirror lock up on RZ67 simply required triggering the camera and did not require attaching a release cable if you have one attached to the lens. As for the shooting modes - T mode on the lens required camera to be set to B (bulb), else camera shot at shutter speed set using dial.
    So, the shooting always been according to following sequence:
    1. Set shutter/mode
    2. Cock the lever
    3. Trigger the mirror (no cable attached to the camera trigger)
    4. wait 2-3 sec to ensure there are no movements affecting stability (tripod of course)
    5. Trigger the lens attached release cable

    Logically, attaching release cable to the camera shutter and holding in B mode (except draining the battery) eliminates the need to use lens attached shutter release.
    Last edited by Krosavcheg; 6th September 2017 at 00:20.

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