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Thread: Kodak file ch 11

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    Kodak file ch 11

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/kod...tcy-2012-01-19

    Portra, Leica m9 sensors, only dalsa for us now I suppose! Let's hope these things carry on unhampered by excessive baggage of the old corporate.

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    The sensor division was sold to a private equity firm in October 2011, so there's still a chance for the M9...
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Not off to a good start for Kodak branded paper/media which has been licensed to Brand Management Group. I was looking for icc profiles for my Epson 9900 for Kodak Universal Backlit and was directed here: http://www.brandmanagementgroup.com/support

    All the folders are empty---no icc profiles to download.

    **fingers-crossed: just received an email from Brand Management Group stating they were working on generating the profiles and posting them. No love lost for Kodak's (mismanagment woes) but would like to see companies that do pick up Kodak's products be responsive. My Kodak ML500 event printer (initial retail $25K), without media (no alternative supplier) becomes a flower planter later this year....thanks Kodak.
    Last edited by kdphotography; 19th January 2012 at 06:27.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    The sensor division was sold to a private equity firm in October 2011, so there's still a chance for the M9...
    But for a M10 or S3 than they need to start looking at Dalsa or other alternates is my prediction. I hope Leica took a clue about this months ago and started the process of looking at there next sensors.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Will film production keep going? (It was profitable for them).

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    This is a filing for bankruptcy PROTECTION, not a ch.7 of liquidation. Kodak has already secured the funding to keep operations running throughout the restructuring.

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    I hope Leica finally looks at a good CMOS.... not another crappy CCD :-P

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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    It is sad news really..... I was really fond of Tmax, HC 110, Dektol and a host of their other products....
    Guess its time for "Momma, don't take my Kodachrome away..."

    http://youtu.be/QXZTBu_3ioI

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by Swissblad View Post
    It is sad news really..... I was really fond of Tmax, HC 110, Dektol and a host of their other products....
    Guess its time for "Momma, don't take my Kodachrome away..."

    http://youtu.be/QXZTBu_3ioI
    They already did

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I hope Leica finally looks at a good CMOS.... not another crappy CCD :-P

    Eh? You want them to have terrible pictures then?

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    But for a M10 or S3 than they need to start looking at Dalsa or other alternates is my prediction. I hope Leica took a clue about this months ago and started the process of looking at there next sensors.
    Actually as far as I know only two companies have products that go beyond the moire plagued bayer pattern. ( as well as Sigma ).

    Fuji and Truesense Imaging, Inc (ex Kodak).

    It's interesting that both are film companies.

    Truesense Imaging, Inc is combining monochromatic sensor sites with color. Dynamic range and anti blooming is improved.
    Fuji is using a different pattern that drastically reduces moire.

    Truesense Imaging, Inc (kodak's sensors) is now owned by Platinum Equity that has 30 billion in annual revenue. Kodak's ex sensor division is in good hands and with deep pockets. Kodak retains special access to the new companies products.

    Dalsa on the other hand is part of Teledyne. A group with more of a military focus.
    Last edited by FredBGG; 19th January 2012 at 21:44.

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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    They already did
    True - but at least we still have our Nikon cameras.....

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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Interesting point about both being film companies.

    A Leica M9 with a Fuji sensor would be interesting - the X100 has stunning performance - now image that in FX

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by Swissblad View Post
    Interesting point about both being film companies.

    A Leica M9 with a Fuji sensor would be interesting - the X100 has stunning performance - now image that in FX
    The sensor in the x-Pro 1 is even better.

    Look at the high res samples here:

    http://www.fujifilm.com/products/dig...sample_images/

    Scale that up to MF size and it's game over.

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    Eh? You want them to have terrible pictures then?
    First of all it's still the point that for a terrible picture the fault lies to 99% with the person behind it. Second, I don't see any reason for CCDs anymore. Just look at good photography from the d3x... Even if I don't own the camera, I have to admit that the pixel quality is amazing. Now the sensor is again already 3 years old. I am pretty sure that most companies understand that the future is CMOS OR a different technologie, but certainly not CCDs. I would even bet, that the next high end models in medium format won't be CCDs anymore.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    This is what Henrik Hakansson (Phase One) said in an interview in German Profifoto 4/2010:

    The technical possibilities of CCD have come to an end and we are aware that we need to switch to CMOS and search cooperation with other makers for this.........

    I think this says it all......

    Greetings from right now Wroclaw/Poland

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    The sensor in the x-Pro 1 is even better.

    Look at the high res samples here:

    http://www.fujifilm.com/products/dig...sample_images/

    Scale that up to MF size and it's game over.
    Could you please point us to any particular image or area in an image that demonstrates high image quality?

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    I've downloaded all the Fuji sample jpgs, had a good play with them. What I see is excellent colour and a nice curve in the files. But they're still that same sony chip we've seen elsewhere which has yet to impress me (the NEX7's chip was the first crop chip I've ever seen to have tonality which I liked for all that it's noisy). Infact I'd go so far to say that they should have left the AA filter on in this case, there is crunchyness to the files which I don't find that pleasing.
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    First of all it's still the point that for a terrible picture the fault lies to 99% with the person behind it. Second, I don't see any reason for CCDs anymore. Just look at good photography from the d3x...
    And yet.. when it comes to color - CCD beats CMOS in my eyes at least. Just like it does with lower ISO. I have shot with D3x many times. Not impressed at all with it. Like D700 better And then i liked E-1 even better just like i do like CCD based MF.

    Also quality control on CCD production is much much higher simply due technology used.

    Sure - bayer sucks and you effectively have 1/3rd of colour pixels.. but hey. CMOS just as bad. And i had shot same glass with CCD and CMOS. So why my hands might be absolutely pear shaped - its same hands with same glass. And colour rendition on CCD was winner every time.

    And while Foveon got some potential - its hard to judge it due lack of any decent lenses to uncover its potential. So i am passing on that too. And you don't want to know what i think of Fuji, while its got wider DR...

    Then again - to each his own

    So, while its sad that they filing for protection, i hope Kodak and their stuff will stick around. I like their papers and chemicals and some of films, which i use.

    Plus my first portable digital camera was actually Kodak. Not that it forced me to switch from film back in days of 98, but it did make me think.

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Could you please point us to any particular image or area in an image that demonstrates high image quality?
    For one look at the fibers on the black rope in the photo of the book and stones.
    Look at the brighter spots on the rope. Absolutely no moire. When I get a chance I'll pull up a sample of shinny black fiber shot with a MF sensor and post it here...


    Fuji X pro 1




    The blacks are nice and color moire free.



    Phase one digital back


    Evident Moire.

    Both ropes are black
    Last edited by FredBGG; 21st January 2012 at 01:09.

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Any details on distance/ crop size? Is that a processed raw? A jpeg out of the camera?
    (neither crops look v good IMO)
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Senior Member MaxKißler's Avatar
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Any details on distance/ crop size? Is that a processed raw? A jpeg out of the camera?
    (neither crops look v good IMO)
    +1


    On the one hand, I strongly support any new ideas that could improve the technical aspect of photography but on the other hand, these samples don't convince me yet. Most probably because I raelly dislike cmos sensors... If these were in fact jpegs straight out of the camera, I'd say they're fine. But considering the fact that it's just another aps-c-sized cmos sensor would very likely get me to buying a used M8 instead, which is likely to be in the same price range...

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Any details on distance/ crop size? Is that a processed raw? A jpeg out of the camera?
    (neither crops look v good IMO)
    All three are 1:1 crops.
    They are out of camera jpegs.

    You say neither crops look good... what about the moire on the CCD MF and none at all with the Fuji.


    One thing I found interesting is that in photoshop I ran the shadow highlights filter to snoop into the blacks
    and found that they held up very well as do most CCD sensors in the shadows. This tends to be an area where
    most cmos sensors have trouble.

    Fuji knows a thing or two about sensors.... I remember testing a Fuji back for the GX680 ages ago.
    It was a dual array of sites. One for shadows and one for highlights. Images were brilliant.
    Unfortunately it was only sold in Japan.



    What is it that you don't like about the Fuji samples?
    What about the moire on the CCD back.. the third image.

    EDIT:

    I just noticed your a Leaf product manager....

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    All three are 1:1 crops.
    They are out of camera jpegs.
    what phase back produced out of camera jpegs?

    since they aren't identical shots of identical subject with identical data compared, they are pretty much irrelevant. The artifacts you claim is moire could be caused by many things.

    BTW, seems to be a far reach from the topic. One thing I've always liked about getDPI is how things tend to stay on topic. there are a lot more relevant things to discuss about the implications of kodak's chapter 11 (for example, does apple really own the rights to many of the patents Kodak claims to own) than if a fuji sensor is better than a phase sensor...
    Last edited by Wayne Fox; 21st January 2012 at 19:51.
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    what phase back produced out of camera jpegs?

    since they aren't identical shots of identical subject with identical data compared, they are pretty much irrelevant. The artifacts you claim is moire could be caused by many things.

    BTW, seems to be a far reach from the topic. One thing I've always liked about getDPI is how things tend to stay on topic. there are a lot more relevant things to discuss about the implications of kodak's chapter 11 (for example, does apple really own the rights to many of the patents Kodak claims to own) than if a fuji sensor is better than a phase sensor...
    The Fuji images are out of camera jpegs. Obviously the Phase image is not an out of camera jpeg.

    The artifacts in the image are moire. Totally absent on slide film shot with the very same camera.

    What in your opinion would be causing it?

    I think that moire free (or almost free) sensors are very on topic when discussing Kodak's chapter 11. Many people think kodak sensor division is dead.
    It is not and they are developing moire free sensors as well as sensors with superior monochrome. A FF 24x36 has already been announced that is not a bayer array.

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Going back to the Chapter 11 issue...

    One of the main reasons Kodak is doing this is to get out of part of their pension contracts with it retired employees. A huge obligation. This is going to be tough for many many people.

    http://www.timesnews.net/article/904...-by-bankruptcy

    It also makes it much easier for Kodak to sell it's intellectual property.
    One the bankruptcy court OKs the sale can go ahead with out 3rd parties being able to block the sales.

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    The Fuji images are out of camera jpegs. Obviously the Phase image is not an out of camera jpeg.

    The artifacts in the image are moire. Totally absent on slide film shot with the very same camera.

    What in your opinion would be causing it?

    I think that moire free (or almost free) sensors are very on topic when discussing Kodak's chapter 11. Many people think kodak sensor division is dead.
    It is not and they are developing moire free sensors as well as sensors with superior monochrome. A FF 24x36 has already been announced that is not a bayer array.
    Well, you did imply all three are out of camera. I knew the phase wasn't, seems it should have been clearer in your post.

    So is the fuji's "lack" of moire due to sensor design? Does it have an AA filter? What's going on with the camera firmware? Moire can be resolved by software and that software is getting better (LR4 seems to be pretty good at it). All I can say is they look a little soft ... like an AA filter. I"m not saying they're not good, but then unless they put one in a medium format system not much interest from me.

    Even though the sensor might not be a "bayer" sensor, it's still based on the concept, with each sensel seeing only red, green, or blue. the arrangement changes and perhaps the susceptibility to moire decreases, but it still must extrapolate color so we'll see how perfect it can be. I know all sensor makers are testing other arrangements than the traditional bayer, to me the most promising was this one by Kodak.

    Still seems off topic because Kodak no longer owns their sensor division and has nothing to do with future developments of sensors. Whether or not the company that purchased them is viable is another topic.Might be a good thing for all they sold the sensor division, although maybe there's too much competition for it to be viable. Important, probably, but nothing to do with Kodak anymore.
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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Going back to the Chapter 11 issue...

    One of the main reasons Kodak is doing this is to get out of part of their pension contracts with it retired employees. A huge obligation. This is going to be tough for many many people.

    Kodak retirees may be affected by bankruptcy- Kingsport Times-News

    It also makes it much easier for Kodak to sell it's intellectual property.
    One the bankruptcy court OKs the sale can go ahead with out 3rd parties being able to block the sales.
    good points.

    I have dealt directly with Kodak for several decades, and was a beta facility for some of their digital printing equipment in the 90s. (I even got a ride on their private jet once before they had to sell those). I have many friends from those relationships that have lost their jobs over the years, and several who basically chose early retirement. Stockholders also lose, but then again the stock had tanked so bad already there wasn't much left to lose.

    Of course the alternative of foundering on until having to file Chapter 7 nets the same results for the pensions. still tough going for many friends.

    And I'm sure there are a couple more rounds of layoffs coming ...
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    Still seems off topic because Kodak no longer owns their sensor division and has nothing to do with future developments of sensors. Whether or not the company that purchased them is viable is another topic.Might be a good thing for all they sold the sensor division, although maybe there's too much competition for it to be viable. Important, probably, but nothing to do with Kodak anymore.
    Actually the new company has a lot to do with Kodak.
    It has preferential access to Kodak know how and Kodak has preferential access to the new companies products.
    The companies have such a close relationship that Truesense Imaging, Inc home page is still under the Kodak domain.
    Platinum Equity is smart enough to keep ties to Kodak.

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    Still seems off topic because Kodak no longer owns their sensor division and has nothing to do with future developments of sensors. Whether or not the company that purchased them is viable is another topic.Might be a good thing for all they sold the sensor division, although maybe there's too much competition for it to be viable. Important, probably, but nothing to do with Kodak anymore.
    Actually the new company has a lot to do with Kodak.
    It has preferential access to Kodak know how and Kodak has preferential access to the new companies products.
    Kodak also has a lot to do with future developments seeing that much is based on current and future kodak research.

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    Even though the sensor might not be a "bayer" sensor, it's still based on the concept, with each sensel seeing only red, green, or blue. the arrangement changes and perhaps the susceptibility to moire decreases, but it still must extrapolate color so we'll see how perfect it can be. I know all sensor makers are testing other arrangements than the traditional bayer, to me the most promising was this one by Kodak.
    Well it's not a thing of the past.

    New Products on Display at Vision 2011 Bring Advances in Image Quality,Resolution, Sensitivity, and Customer Support

    The KODAK KAI-16070 Image Sensor is the first device based on the KODAK
    TRUESENSE 7.4-Micron Interline Transfer CCD Platform, a new technology that
    leverages the superior capabilities of Kodak’s 5.5 micron pixel platform into a larger, 7.4
    micron pixel. The new platform shares a number of performance features with the 5.5
    micron pixel devices, including low read noise, high QE, and a flexible output structure
    that supports the use of 1, 2, or 4 outputs on a single device. But the larger pixel size of
    the new platform helps to increase the light gathering capability of the pixel by 80%,
    improving signal-to-noise and low light performance. In addition, smear rejection has
    been improved by 4x (to -115 dB), dynamic range has been doubled to 70 dB, and
    blooming suppression has been increased to over 1000x.

    In addition to improving the base performance of the pixel, the platform also
    includes a new output design that allows a single charge packet to be sampled either
    once (standard readout configuration) or twice – at both high and low gain – to enable
    measurement of very high signal levels. When operated in this dual-gain mode, signals
    of up to 160k electrons (corresponding to a 2x2 bin of the base pixel array) can be
    measured, increasing the linear dynamic range available from the sensor to 82 dB.
    Taken together, these improvements result in a technology platform that provides
    superior image quality for use in the most demanding imaging applications.

    The KODAK KAI-16070 Image Sensor is the first product to leverage this new
    7.4 micron pixel platform. With 16 million pixels in a 35mm optical format, the KAI-
    16070 supports full resolution readout at up to eight frames per second. In addition, this
    product is both pin and package compatible with devices in the 5.5 micron pixel
    platform, allowing the KAI-16070 to directly leverage cameras that support the 35mm
    format KODAK KAI-29050 Image Sensor. The KAI-16070 is available in monochrome,
    Bayer Color, and KODAK TRUESENSE Color Filter Pattern configurations.

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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post

    So is the fuji's "lack" of moire due to sensor design? Does it have an AA filter? What's going on with the camera firmware? Moire can be resolved by software and that software is getting better (LR4 seems to be pretty good at it). All I can say is they look a little soft ... like an AA filter.
    No AA filter.

    The sensor uses a more irregular layout of the different colored sensors producing more of a randomized irregular sampling to achieve more of a film like look.


    I don't find the images soft at all.

    Here is an example of what this camera and it's sensor can do.



    Keep in mind this is a street photo and not something setup for a camera ad.

    Night time image with great depth and smoothness while retaining fine detail without looking harsh.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that Fuji has a huge advantage over other camera companies when it comes to small sensor lens design. Fuji has invested millions in
    small capture area lenses due to it's development of feature film lenses. These are very advanced designs and the trickle down value is immense.



    These are $20,000 to $60,000 dollar lenses that produce amazing images crammed down into small sensors of cine cameras.

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Kodak file ch 11

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Well it's not a thing of the past.
    This sale announcement came just 2 days before Vision 2011 and there was no point in changing the show's plans and coming as something other than Kodak

    At the show when talking to employees they could not say anything about future plans or future name of the new company simply because they did not know what the future holds for them

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