New Member Switching to MF (Intro and Samples)

[dougpeterson]

Small point, but in looking at systems, it's worth noticing that MamiyaLeaf does not show the RZ67 line on it's website. I don't know what that means, but if I was thinking about an RZ ProIID, I'd fine out before I got one.

Even smaller point is while the RZ Pro IID has great curb appeal and is an impressive looking piece of gear, there is some added weight to think about if doing on-location work, and based on the sample images, that happens a lot of the time. Add to that the back-up camera/lens you probably have handy in case of the unforeseen and the weight starts to get up there.

Mamiya+Leaf have gone through a few rebrandings since Leaf, Mamiya, and Phase One hooked up.

My understanding is they are just behind on getting specific content from the previous various Leaf and Mamiya international sites into the new consolidated single-website-for-everything identity.

The RZ Pro IID is still a current product (some limitations on importation to Europe due to environmental regulations) and is supported by every Leaf, Mamiya, and Phase One M mount back including all the latest backs (P65+, P40+, IQ, Leaf Aptus II 10 and 12).

It's no secret or shame that there are far fewer sales of RZ than DF based backs (the market for those ok with manually focusing is inherently smaller today and it's a larger/heavier camera). But those who have them absolutely love them and since it's a manual focus camera with manual control lenses (meaning there isn't anything to "improve") and all the design/manufacturing/bug-fixing is already done I suspect you'll see the RZ in production as a current product well into the future.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[David Schneider]

Mamiya+Leaf have gone through a few rebrandings since Leaf, Mamiya, and Phase One hooked up.

My understanding is they are just behind on getting specific content from the previous various Leaf and Mamiya international sites into the new consolidated single-website-for-everything identity.

Doug.

Thanks for update. Does seem odd that if you put the RZ ProDII into a search engine and click on the Mamaya-USA link thinking that's the best place to get info and it takes you to MamayaLeaf with no mention of the camera.

Sorry for the hijack of the thread.

 

[yaya]

Doug.

Thanks for update. Does seem odd that if you put the RZ ProDII into a search engine and click on the Mamaya-USA link thinking that's the best place to get info and it takes you to MamayaLeaf with no mention of the camera.

Sorry for the hijack of the thread.

We're in the process of editing & migrating data from the old mamiya-usa site into a special section on Mamiya Leaf

For those on a budget a used RZ ProII can save you a buck or two and it works just fine with all Aptus-II backs, with 4 mounts to choose from: M, V, H or AFi, note that two of these are 645 AF cameras...

All our adapters let you rotate the back on the camera body

Yair

 

[Mario]

Hasselblad rep just left... quite giddy. I'll be demoing the H4D-31 and H4D-50 over the next few weeks at some shoots. Camera felt fantastic, ergonomics was great, ISO1600 was beyond impressive (looked comparable to my 1Ds on the few shots I took). Can't wait to put it through the ringer and see how it does.

Phase Rep just had twins and is still in the NICU but looking forward to meeting him as well.

 

[David Schneider]

Mario,

One the small points, you might find the H4d has less vibration due to shutters in lenses. Additionally, there's a delay in mirror slap you can adjust. It's a factor if hand holding.

It's very easy for someone else to spend your money, but if you are getting family sessions from your seniors (I work pretty hard at it) then you'll appreciate the larger sensor of the H4d-50. On the other hand, if you think the higher ISO of the H4d-31 is more important, you appreciate that. Either one (or comparable Phase/Mamiya) will keep any Nikon or Canon in the camera bag for a family photo session.

I would suggest when you test, duplicate the image with your 1Ds at the exact same time for a few files. Of course, the danger in doing that is it will empty out your wallet when you see the results.

 

[gazwas]

Mario, why are you not trying the H4d-40?

The Kodak chip in that camera is supposed to be a gem!

As an SLR, I was mad for the H4d-50! The Phase (DF) camera was a big let down next to it.

For me, there was very little difference in image quality between the Phase One and Hasselblad digital backs and both companies produce great lenses. It all boiled down to how it handled as a camera and how well the software worked.

In the end, I was more interested in tech camera use rather than as an SLR and Phase backs and Capture One software is easier/better to use with a tech camera than Phocus so I purchased Phase One.

By the way, the H4d-50 will blow the socks off your 1Ds so be prepared for poverty!

 

[FredBGG]

A huge appeal to MFD is definitely slowing my shooting style down.

Mario you can slow down your shooting style by simply giving things more thought.

There are times when I will shoot an A list client and maybe only shoot 6 to 12 shots total over 15 minutes.... and that could be with a film, digital... MF or 35mm DSLR.

 

[FredBGG]

There are two principal difference that you will get shooting MF instead of 35mm DSLR.

More dynamic range (compared to the 1Ds) and far better blacks.

The look of MF lenses depending on what lenses you get.

Quite a few modern MF lenses will not give you what you need.
You are shooting portraits so hyper resolution is not something you need, actually it can be a problem.

Looking at you images I don't think you will like the Mamiya/Phase 80mm 2.8 LS.
These lenses have to be designed to fit the super fast leaf shutter that cannot be larger than a certain size.

Looking at your samples I'm guessing that shooting wide open and isolating your subjects from the background is important, but you also don't go for long lenses as you images have a touch of intimacy of shorter lenses.

Of all the MF lenses I have used and tested (very many) the best for this look are:

645 and 6x6 MF:
110mm f2 Carl Zeiss Hasselblad (or Rollie)
150mm 2.8 Carl Zeiss Contax or Hasselblad
180mm 2.8 Carl Zeiss Jena Pentacon.
100mm f2.2 Fuji/Hasselblad H
80mm f2 Carl Zeiss Contax or Rollie

6x7 and 6x8 Medium format.

180mm 3.2 Fuji GX680
125mm 3.2 Fuji GX680
250mm 5.6 Fuji GX680

110mm 2.8 Mamiya RZ
150mm 3.5 Mamiya RZ


Another important thing for you to keep in mind is maximum shutter speed. The higher you can go the more you can take advantage of shooting wide open.
The Hasselblad H is limited in this feature with a max speed of 1/800th.
Mamiya RZ only 1/400th 1/500th
Fuji GX680 is also limited to 1/400th, but you can fit a neutral density filter behind the mirror so you can still have a nice bright viewfinder (actually the best viewfinder of all MF).
The Mamiya Phase goes up to 1/4000th.

Hasselblad True Focus won't make a big difference for you. It is most effective with wider lenses and you compositions don't look like you need to do that much focus and recompose. It also does not account for in axis movements.


The Mamiya/Phase is a nice body to give you more options.

With adapters you can shoot with focus confirmation with lenses like the one of a kind Carl Zeiss 110mm f2 with an adapter and go as fast as 1/4000th.
You can also get an LS lens as a fast 1/1600th of a second flash sync.

The Hasselblad H system only has leaf shutters so you cannot use other lenses.

Regarding sensors.. don't go for a massive MP count. For what you (and I do) sensor size is important.
No point moving from FF top of the line DSLR to shoot crop frame on a MF camera.

You should also consider film. You mentioned that you want MF to distinguish you more. The distinct look of LARGE MF film (6x7 and 6x8)
can't even be matched by the best MF digital.

Don't expect the reliability of your Canon 1Ds III from MF digital cameras. Very few cameras are built like the Canon 1d cameras.

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

Mario,

I think you'll really like the H4D/31. The crop sensor favors portrait scenarios, and the micro lenses will allow great low light hand held shots too. It's really up to the lenses to resolve all these MP's, and personally, if your not printing billboards, what's the point - Buy extra lenses instead. I think the "H" models are the easiest to use all day long! They fit perfectly in any orientation. Don't fall prey to pixel envy, it's not worth it...the H4d/31 is the perfect size for resolution and budget...you'll be amazed!

 

[BANKER1]

+1

Greg

 

[Mario]

Thanks for all the thoughts. The Hassy rep didn't have a 31/40 available right away, but he did have a 50. I figure I would take out for kicks.

MF definitely lives up to the hype... the files are unreal. Camera was comfortable. Menu is simple and straight forward. I think I had a faulty battery as it lasted for less than 200 captures. The lens locked up once. My friend Shelby (ha!) let me squeal, curse, jump, frown, and take some pictures for the day.


Testing and abusing the high sync speed. Taken at 11:30a on a full bright sunny day. This was the second capture with the camera ever:

Better balance with ambient:

Testing backlight and tonal gradations:

Testing full on flare. Focusing was a breeze and the 80 eats sunlight gorgeously:

The Mario classic shot... motion/spinning. Significantly less keepers, but overall I didn't find it impossible to get what I wanted.

 

[FredBGG]

Be sure to test the focal lengths that are best for you.

While the tests you did show technical foreground quality
the bokeh is not as nice as your Canon images.

Also I would suggest you hold off on any decision on a MF system until you test
a couple of other cameras.

A few things you should keep in mind.

Fuji's new sensor technology debuting in the X-pro 1. Looks simply amazing even on a small sensor.
No anti alias filter on it.

Nikon will have a 36MP camera without an anti alias filter.

Canon is coming out with a 50 to 110mm f2 zoom. Give or take a few millimeters. Short range, but prime lens quality.

Going back to MF I strongly recommend a larger sensor. Even if it's 22 MP. Don't go for 33x44mm sensors.
36x48 or above. No point shooting MF on a crop sensor. The type of depth and dimension that a bigger sensor gives you is something your customers will perceive more than resolution.

Canon's new 18mp sensor is rumored (a bit more than rumored) to have a large improvement in dynamic range.

One last thing. I don't agree with the reasoning that for family shoots you need MF. Flexibility and speed of a top of the line 35mm DSLR
will outweigh shooting with MF. And take this from a photographer obsessed with larger formats.... hell I even shoot beauty on location with an 8x10
and heave around my Fuji GX680 cameras all over the place.

One other thing I'd like to bring up is film.

You mentioned that you what to differentiate yourself form the rest of the market. Well I think the great photos you take have already done most of that
You might want to consider a digital and film combination. While MF digital is great it still has a look that is quite similar from a pictorical point of view as
the very best 35mm DSLR cameras with certain stand out lenses like the 85mm 1.2, 100mm f2 etc etc. MF digital is still limited by the relatively small size of the sensor.
A 6x7 camera or better still a 6x8 camera will give you a look that digital cannot. What is also interesting is that due to the whole move to digital
you can get absolutely amazing lenses that used to cost $ 5,000 (and would cost more today) for $200-400.

I totally favor 35mm DSLR plus 6x8 film combination compared to MF digital.

You could shoot some very dynamic stuff with say the Canon 1D X and then shoot some more quiet and moody images with film.
portra 160 NC is simply beautiful on large MF.

Take a look at this ladies work. She shoots a combination of digital 35mm DSLR and various film formats.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/laurenrosenbaum/6286495112/in/photostream

And look at these guys work... all film:
http://www.thebrotherswright.com/bwrightphoto/

Best of all you can take a stab at large medium format film for a small investment and if it's not for you sell it all for what you paid for it ... or more if your good at listing on ebay.

 

[cng]

Although I agree with the general point of Fred's comments, one major caveat with film is: make sure you have access to a consistently good lab. They are a dying breed.

I've watched small, good labs and large, poor labs go out of business these last few years. Now the remaining large, good labs are slowly turning into small, poor labs. If this is not the case in your local area, then great.

I've tried to support my favorite lab(s) over the years but as their QC dropped, I just couldn't justify the risk and cost of continuing to shoot film, even for personal stuff. Unfortunately, it was a vicious cycle: as processing and scanning quality dropped, so did the amount of film I shot. (Of course, digital may have had a part to play in all this too. )

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Have to admit, looking at your canon stuff, I'm not sure exactly what is missing. FF dslrs's I find to be far kinder to non models without pro makeup and lighting to be honest. The depth and shadows of MF may be incredible but they ain't that kind to your average John/Jane.

P.S. this is an opinion advanced by my wife, as a photographer I of couse ooh and aah at all the depth, detail and 'alive' shadows that I can get but as as an average onlooker, her opinion is far more relevant to the real world outside of pro models, makeup and endlessly controlled light (I'm a wedding shooter).

 

[gazwas]

Even though its only your first outing with MFD, after looking again at your (excellent) Canon images as a comparison IMO the Canon files are more flattering to your style of shooting and more flattering to your subject. The way the Canon lenses seem to over exaggerate the transition from sharp subject and out of focus areas of the image is similar to a Gaussian Blur in Photoshop. The MFD lens has a more traditional sharpness fall off that while giving the image more dimension, looses some of that dreamy feel of your original images. I'm sure that look is a big reason why people like your style of shooting and book your to shoot their portrait/wedding.

 

[David Schneider]

I disagree with Ben. I have found retouching with or without make up on a subject is easier with mf. My experience is more info in a file gives me more flexibility in retouching and more options; easier and faster and better, more realistic results if doing either minimal retouching for a more "natural" look or extensive retouching where there's heavy retouching. My world is a lot of high school seniors in a highly diverse ethnic area so I'll have seniors come in with no make-up, heavy make-up, or pay to have make-up applied for the session by my retoucher/MUA.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Geez have we forgot its Dante's Inferno here. We do NOT let people out of here. LOL

Bottom line you can't do faster than 1/250 with flash sync on a DSLR PERIOD. That's ends the argument right there for me at least the rest is gravy. I'm shooting a crap load of models lately even with sensor plus and I'm flying way faster than 1/250 for outdoor fill on a regular basis. Otherwise I would shoot my Sony and even though I like to give up my MF cam I can't seem to pull the trigger. So going tech cam and Sony is still a stretch because of the fast sync. Now go get a demo on the Phase stuff try a IQ 140 or IQ 160. Spend money keep the insane people alive here. Lol

 

[fotografz]

I disagree with Ben. I have found retouching with or without make up on a subject is easier with mf. My experience is more info in a file gives me more flexibility in retouching and more options; easier and faster and better, more realistic results if doing either minimal retouching for a more "natural" look or extensive retouching where there's heavy retouching. My world is a lot of high school seniors in a highly diverse ethnic area so I'll have seniors come in with no make-up, heavy make-up, or pay to have make-up applied for the session by my retoucher/MUA.

I agree.

My friend just swapped over to Hasselblad from Canon and his work became more natural looking immediately ... his opinion is the same as David's, much easier to work on.

Marc

 

[Mario]

I can't stress how helpful everyone has been. Thank you all for providing such insight.

I don't think anything is 'missing' from my Canon files... but you don't miss a 400hp twin turbo Audi until you've driven it for the past couple years.

 

[fotografz]

Even though its only your first outing with MFD, after looking again at your (excellent) Canon images as a comparison IMO the Canon files are more flattering to your style of shooting and more flattering to your subject. The way the Canon lenses seem to over exaggerate the transition from sharp subject and out of focus areas of the image is similar to a Gaussian Blur in Photoshop. The MFD lens has a more traditional sharpness fall off that while giving the image more dimension, looses some of that dreamy feel of your original images. I'm sure that look is a big reason why people like your style of shooting and book your to shoot their portrait/wedding.

Shooting with the HC 100/2.2 wide open gives that dreamy look. So does the 150N. The HC80 is like a 50mm ... too short, and is a 2.8 lens compared to a canon 85/1.2 ... the 100/2.2 is my choice for "standard" lens on the Hasselblad H camera and results look remarkably like the Leica 75/1.4 OOF areas.

-Marc