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New Member Switching to MF (Intro and Samples)

Mario

New member
Hi everyone!

New member here, friend of Shelby Lewis. I'm a full time portrait photographer based out of Denver, Colorado with an emphasis on high-end styled HS Senior Portraits. Will be adding a MF system to the arsenal within the next month or two and am hoping to utilize GetDPI as a great transition resource. Currently looking at the 645DF/Leaf-II 6/7/8 and 80mm LS to start, and am closely considering the H4D-31/40 as well (very open to opinions on this!). I currently shoot with Canon 1Ds's, 24/35/50/85L glass, and a variety of misc. gear.









 
Last edited:
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
Hey Mario... I wondered how long it would be before I saw you over here! :D:D

It's a great place where the folks are especially keen to question the "why" of MF. I look at your images and, like we've talked about on facebook, wonder which direction would allow you the freedom to shoot the way you do and keep the same free quality that your images have.

Currently I think the IQ backs have it over the aptus line in this regard as they allow for better focus checking and generally faster operation... BUT I still wonder if hasselblad might be best for you. The true-focus system might be a fantastic tool for your images and your off-center compositions... and, I'll say it again, that 100/2.2 is to die for. The leaf shutter in the hassy system allows for sync at all shutter speeds up to 1/800th. The DF with the LS lenses is similar (better in some regards).

But, my the price! I know you're in the same budget I was looking at... which will restrict just how much DSLR-like function you are going to get out of your MF camera. Lower price = slower, lol.

I can say this... if anyone here goes and watched any of your behind-the-scenes videos, they'll all tell you that MF will not be the way to go for you as the AF is too slow and depth of field control too imprecise. Yet, if you're looking to slow down with your shooting and aim for similar images but captured with a bit more thoughtfulness and slower pace, the MF will pay off in spades with higher image quality and incredible tonal expansiveness.

For me, the change has been worth it, but it means shooting 50 careful frames in a session (and trusting I can pull it off) instead of 500.

Lovely work, dude!
 

yaya

Active member
I can say this... if anyone here goes and watched any of your behind-the-scenes videos, they'll all tell you that MF will not be the way to go for you as the AF is too slow and depth of field control too imprecise. Yet, if you're looking to slow down with your shooting and aim for similar images but captured with a bit more thoughtfulness and slower pace, the MF will pay off in spades with higher image quality and incredible tonal expansiveness.
As you probably will agree Shelby, AF is sometimes highly overrated:)

Cesar Lloreda in action

Nice work Mario and let us know if you need any advice!

Yair
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Welcome Mario!

No shunning here. :)

If you have the budget, do be sure to also demo the H4D/40 with True Focus-Absolute Position Lock ... very fast camera, and when coupled with a HC100/2.2 will produce the subject isolation and draw very similar to using a 85/1.2 @ about f/1.4 ... only with much greater dynamic range and of course file size.

If on a more restricted budget, a H3D-II/31 is an excellent alternative for a very reasonable price.

The ISO range goes to 1600 and is very good. Hasselblad RAW files are now fully supported in Adobe Light Room including the Hasselblad True Color embedded profile and all HC and HCD lens corrections. So, if you are a LR user nothing will change. Hasselblad has recently released new firmware for the H4D/40 camera that doubled the LCD resolution and added an instant one touch 100% focus check feature.

I am primarily a photojournalist type wedding photographer and have shot fast paced weddings and engagement sessions, with and without lighting, using a H3D-II/31 or H4D/40 (see samples below) ... as well as portrait work and commercial assignments. Based on your posted samples, you will not find the H4D/40 all that different from working with a DSLR, the capture rate isn't as fast of course, but fast enough to shoot a wedding with. Give it a try.

Best of luck on your quest. :thumbs:

-Marc

(Just click on any attached thumbnail to see larger pics)

BTW, if you decide to go the same route as Shelby, I have a mint Mamiya RZ Pro-IID, and a closet full of lenses I will be soon selling to help pay for a Leica S2 lens cap ... :ROTFL:
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Hi Mario,

I also had the 1DsMkII, and have owned the H3d/31, H4d/40, and DF/P45+. Out off all those models, the H3d/31 was my favorite! It's form factor was perfect, it was the least finicky, and a great deal. The file sizes were reasonable, so I didn't need to upgrade my computer too. The difference in quality was outstanding. Also, an H4d/31 is a great deal with good ISO for MFD, and TF. There's something about using MFD, that makes you think and compose with more thought and purpose, and I think that results in better photography.

Another thought would be to consider an H1/H2, with a pre - owned DB from Capture Integration or Digital Transitions. It's around half of the investment of an H4d/31 and allows the upgrade to an H4x with all the features of the higher end models, and the ability to use any "H" mount DB.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
The leaf shutter in the hassy system allows for sync at all shutter speeds up to 1/800th. The DF with the LS lenses is similar (better in some regards).
The DF with LS lenses though can also use the body shutter when needed for faster shutter speeds. So in addition to syncing with flash at 1/1600 you can also shoot ambient light (with e.g. a sunbounce as needed) down to 1/4000. Since you seem to favor shooting side open you should be aware that 1/800 can be a limitation when shooting at ISO100 wide open.

Since you'll be shooting relatively high volume (note that some on this board shoot 10-12 pictures max per day - that's what I mean by "relatively") you'll also want to explore the workflow software you'll end up using with whatever backs you're considering. The skintone consistency tools, batch processing, focus mask, loupe tool, styles system, very high speed batch editing, Capture Pilot on the iPad for client selections, and color editor tools in Capture One makes (in my very biased opinion) a fantastic tool for a senior portrait photographer. You'll be spending at least as much time in software as shooting (even with a fast/efficient workflow), so this matters a lot.

But regardless you won't be shunned for choosing whatever system you find works best for you. There are shooters of every brand on this forum, even several that are no longer made. The important thing is to try, wherever possible, to get your hands on the equipment and see what pros and cons matter most to you in actual shooting (e.g. you may find my observation about shutter speed limitations to be completely irrelevant to how you shoot once it's in your hands, or you may find it to be a major factor).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I'm shooting another round of models today 5 actually my kit is really simple. Phase One IQ 160 on sensor plus since I really don't need the 60 mpx size files, 110LS lens and 80 LS lens both in the studio with Profoto D1's and outside I use a Profoto Acute 600 battery unit with shutter reaching as high as 1/1600 with my V grip. I don't miss focus often and if I do it is usually my fault not the DF. Its fast and accurate for this stuff, the trick is knowing your gear no matter what system you chose.

BTW we don't shun anyone here and if someone does the have hell to pay. LOL
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
Welcome Mario!

If on a more restricted budget, a H3D-II/31 is an excellent alternative for a very reasonable price.
I think you've heard this one before Mario :D... I think the 31 is one of the under-rated values out there. There are also a small minority of us that use Lightroom to great affect with our MF files. In general C1 is a much better raw converter for most of the backs, but since LR3, adobe has closed the gap.

I've been using the LR4 beta and am VERY impressed how it works with my aptus II 6 (28mp) files. Because I'm a student and broke most of the time, I'm using the Paul Buff Einstein lights with Vaganbond mini-lithium power on-location... triggered with normal pocketwizards (up to 1/400th!) on my RZ since it has leaf shutter lenses.

Marc... let me know when you decide to sell your RZ stuff. If you break apart your kit, I want your T/S adapter and a few of your lenses plus some odds and ends! :)
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I think you've heard this one before Mario :D... I think the 31 is one of the under-rated values out there. There are also a small minority of us that use Lightroom to great affect with our MF files. In general C1 is a much better raw converter for most of the backs, but since LR3, adobe has closed the gap. I've been using the LR4 beta and am VERY impressed how it works with my aptus II 6 (28mp) files.
Indeed, I'm very eager for LR4 and C1 7 to be released and have their initial kinks worked out. I expect both will be great tools for digital back owners.


Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Just feel lucky you did not think of using a Pentax 645D or Leica S2!:ROTFL:

Welcome.
Honestly comments like these are not warranted nor are they friendly to the forum and its members. Just sayin comments like this create the problems to start with.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Guy, sorry. I will delete my post. Perhaps Mario can edit his original post for the idea he got from Shelby. Perhaps Shelby should not have made the suggestion either. Certainly the topic seems too sensitive to joke about. Just saying'...
 

Mario

New member
Hey Mario... I wondered how long it would be before I saw you over here! :D:D

It's a great place where the folks are especially keen to question the "why" of MF. I look at your images and, like we've talked about on facebook, wonder which direction would allow you the freedom to shoot the way you do and keep the same free quality that your images have.

Currently I think the IQ backs have it over the aptus line in this regard as they allow for better focus checking and generally faster operation... BUT I still wonder if hasselblad might be best for you. The true-focus system might be a fantastic tool for your images and your off-center compositions... and, I'll say it again, that 100/2.2 is to die for. The leaf shutter in the hassy system allows for sync at all shutter speeds up to 1/800th. The DF with the LS lenses is similar (better in some regards).

But, my the price! I know you're in the same budget I was looking at... which will restrict just how much DSLR-like function you are going to get out of your MF camera. Lower price = slower, lol.

I can say this... if anyone here goes and watched any of your behind-the-scenes videos, they'll all tell you that MF will not be the way to go for you as the AF is too slow and depth of field control too imprecise. Yet, if you're looking to slow down with your shooting and aim for similar images but captured with a bit more thoughtfulness and slower pace, the MF will pay off in spades with higher image quality and incredible tonal expansiveness.

For me, the change has been worth it, but it means shooting 50 careful frames in a session (and trusting I can pull it off) instead of 500.

Lovely work, dude!
Thanks man. I definitely owe you a few beers at some point for listening to all my rambling with MFD haha.

A huge appeal to MFD is definitely slowing my shooting style down. I'm down to shooting about 200-250 frames for a Senior client which seems pretty attainable with MFD with little change in how I am shooting now. Famous last words though right? Don't let the behind-the-scenes fool you... they are definitely meant to show a high energy. ;)

From the echoes it sounds like the Hassy is potentially a better camera for me. I'm trying to find a local dealer that can let me test drive one.

I really wish I could multi-quote replies on this board.. so here I go one by one! Haha.
 

Mario

New member
As you probably will agree Shelby, AF is sometimes highly overrated:)

Cesar Lloreda in action

Nice work Mario and let us know if you need any advice!

Yair
Awesome to watch! Thanks for sharing.

Welcome Mario!

No shunning here. :)

If you have the budget, do be sure to also demo the H4D/40 with True Focus-Absolute Position Lock ... very fast camera, and when coupled with a HC100/2.2 will produce the subject isolation and draw very similar to using a 85/1.2 @ about f/1.4 ... only with much greater dynamic range and of course file size.

If on a more restricted budget, a H3D-II/31 is an excellent alternative for a very reasonable price.

The ISO range goes to 1600 and is very good. Hasselblad RAW files are now fully supported in Adobe Light Room including the Hasselblad True Color embedded profile and all HC and HCD lens corrections. So, if you are a LR user nothing will change. Hasselblad has recently released new firmware for the H4D/40 camera that doubled the LCD resolution and added an instant one touch 100% focus check feature.

I am primarily a photojournalist type wedding photographer and have shot fast paced weddings and engagement sessions, with and without lighting, using a H3D-II/31 or H4D/40 (see samples below) ... as well as portrait work and commercial assignments. Based on your posted samples, you will not find the H4D/40 all that different from working with a DSLR, the capture rate isn't as fast of course, but fast enough to shoot a wedding with. Give it a try.

Best of luck on your quest. :thumbs:

-Marc

(Just click on any attached thumbnail to see larger pics)

BTW, if you decide to go the same route as Shelby, I have a mint Mamiya RZ Pro-IID, and a closet full of lenses I will be soon selling to help pay for a Leica S2 lens cap ... :ROTFL:
Thanks so much for the insight! Pretty work as well. Shooting events is definitely not my thing but I am impressed to see you do it well. Great to know about ISO and the workflow. The APL system is definitely intriguing me. Does the H4D/31 have the same focusing features as the H4D/40? My research is not saying yes... but it's not saying no either.

Hi Mario,

I also had the 1DsMkII, and have owned the H3d/31, H4d/40, and DF/P45+. Out off all those models, the H3d/31 was my favorite! It's form factor was perfect, it was the least finicky, and a great deal. The file sizes were reasonable, so I didn't need to upgrade my computer too. The difference in quality was outstanding. Also, an H4d/31 is a great deal with good ISO for MFD, and TF. There's something about using MFD, that makes you think and compose with more thought and purpose, and I think that results in better photography.

Another thought would be to consider an H1/H2, with a pre - owned DB from Capture Integration or Digital Transitions. It's around half of the investment of an H4d/31 and allows the upgrade to an H4x with all the features of the higher end models, and the ability to use any "H" mount DB.
Great to know about the H3D/31... I had not even considered it. I'm slightly nervous though as I am having trouble finding pricing, more or less units for sale. Is there any sort of ballpark price on what they go for?

The DF with LS lenses though can also use the body shutter when needed for faster shutter speeds. So in addition to syncing with flash at 1/1600 you can also shoot ambient light (with e.g. a sunbounce as needed) down to 1/4000. Since you seem to favor shooting side open you should be aware that 1/800 can be a limitation when shooting at ISO100 wide open.

Since you'll be shooting relatively high volume (note that some on this board shoot 10-12 pictures max per day - that's what I mean by "relatively") you'll also want to explore the workflow software you'll end up using with whatever backs you're considering. The skintone consistency tools, batch processing, focus mask, loupe tool, styles system, very high speed batch editing, Capture Pilot on the iPad for client selections, and color editor tools in Capture One makes (in my very biased opinion) a fantastic tool for a senior portrait photographer. You'll be spending at least as much time in software as shooting (even with a fast/efficient workflow), so this matters a lot.

But regardless you won't be shunned for choosing whatever system you find works best for you. There are shooters of every brand on this forum, even several that are no longer made. The important thing is to try, wherever possible, to get your hands on the equipment and see what pros and cons matter most to you in actual shooting (e.g. you may find my observation about shutter speed limitations to be completely irrelevant to how you shoot once it's in your hands, or you may find it to be a major factor).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
Great to know. I definitely want to use LS lenses as I tend to strobe a lot (and am thinking that'll be even truer as I switch to MFD). My workflow is spot on right now (investing less than ten hours a client with shooting, post-production, sales, etc.) however I am definitely expecting some change I am hoping that an already lean and efficient system will help make that transition a bit simpler.

I'm shooting another round of models today 5 actually my kit is really simple. Phase One IQ 160 on sensor plus since I really don't need the 60 mpx size files, 110LS lens and 80 LS lens both in the studio with Profoto D1's and outside I use a Profoto Acute 600 battery unit with shutter reaching as high as 1/1600 with my V grip. I don't miss focus often and if I do it is usually my fault not the DF. Its fast and accurate for this stuff, the trick is knowing your gear no matter what system you chose.

BTW we don't shun anyone here and if someone does the have hell to pay. LOL
Great to know. I'll be using 640w/s lights on location however I am keeping that side of purchasing open as well.

I think you've heard this one before Mario :D... I think the 31 is one of the under-rated values out there. There are also a small minority of us that use Lightroom to great affect with our MF files. In general C1 is a much better raw converter for most of the backs, but since LR3, adobe has closed the gap.

I've been using the LR4 beta and am VERY impressed how it works with my aptus II 6 (28mp) files. Because I'm a student and broke most of the time, I'm using the Paul Buff Einstein lights with Vaganbond mini-lithium power on-location... triggered with normal pocketwizards (up to 1/400th!) on my RZ since it has leaf shutter lenses.

Marc... let me know when you decide to sell your RZ stuff. If you break apart your kit, I want your T/S adapter and a few of your lenses plus some odds and ends! :)
Great to know about LR! I am definitely enjoying the upgrades that LR4 has to offer but I've been eying C1 as a potential switch too.
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
Guy, sorry. I will delete my post. Perhaps Mario can edit his original post for the idea he got from Shelby. Perhaps Shelby should not have made the suggestion either. Certainly the topic seems too sensitive to joke about. Just saying'...
Huh? :(

Mario and I have a long (long!) backstory that includes coming up through the ranks shooting seniors with the same types of equipment... I jumped to MF and when he decided he wanted to , he just asked my opinion. We've been friends for years. I gave it to him, but never have I disparaged any of the other brands. Ask him, he'll tell you when he's all excited about a articular camera I'll say "I'm not so sure...". If you're talking about Mario's "shunned" statement... those weren't my words. That was, in my perception, just him joking about my thoughts about this being a phase/landscape-heavy forum. He knows this is an open, friendly, cool place to be... thus the winky emoticon.

There are biases on this board, but they are for good reasons, oftetimes. I'll point them out, but I'll never discourage someone from trying a particular camera/software out.

Please, point out where I've made a comment that should be deleted and I'll pull it.

With exception to the tenor of the comment about the 645D, I'm glad the pentax was brought up. I didn't mention the Leica because I personally know Mario and his budget and the Leica seems, IMO, beyond his budget (even though it would be PERFECT for him).
 

Mario

New member
Huh? :(

Mario and I have a long (long!) backstory that includes coming up through the ranks shooting seniors with the same types of equipment... I jumped to MF and when he decided he wanted to , he just asked my opinion. We've been friends for years. I gave it to him, but never have I disparaged any of the other brands. Ask him, he'll tell you when he's all excited about a articular camera I'll say "I'm not so sure...". If you're talking about Mario's "shunned" statement... those weren't my words. That was, in my perception, just him joking about my thoughts about this being a phase/landscape-heavy forum. He knows this is an open, friendly, cool place to be... thus the winky emoticon.

There are biases on this board, but they are for good reasons, oftetimes. I'll point them out, but I'll never discourage someone from trying a particular camera/software out.

Please, point out where I've made a comment that should be deleted and I'll pull it.

With exception to the tenor of the comment about the 645D, I'm glad the pentax was brought up. I didn't mention the Leica because I personally know Mario and his budget and the Leica seems, IMO, beyond his budget (even though it would be PERFECT for him).
Sorry guys, this should have been better executed. Shelby and I definitely go way back and it's all tongue in cheek.

And I thought the Canon/Nikon war was a brutal one. :thumbs:

No harm no foul. :)
 

David Schneider

New member
Mario,

Maybe 85% of my senior season is July and August and I do about 150 seniors in total from June to mid-October.

There's a few things to consider. Size prints that are ordered, volume of sessions and workflow (and who is doing that workflow), if you think there's marketing value to using mf, will you be in situations that require ISO over 800, are you using a tripod for virtually all images, can you live with dof that's about two stops less than dslr, are you ok with limited number of zoom lenses, etc.

My use of mf for seniors is generally limited to my winter "model/rep/ambassador" images when I have time, can do what I want, and am not worried about a day packed with back to back sessions and the resulting workflow from those kind of days. While I sell a nice percentage of wall portraits to seniors, the overwhelming majority of those are composites of 3-7 images so the quality differences of mfd over dlsr are not that noticeable as each image isn't that large.

Of course, there's a certain satisfaction that you are producing files and images that are superior to your dslr work that is hard to put a price on. That doesn't show up on profit and loss statement.
 

Mario

New member
Mario,

Maybe 85% of my senior season is July and August and I do about 150 seniors in total from June to mid-October.

There's a few things to consider. Size prints that are ordered, volume of sessions and workflow (and who is doing that workflow), if you think there's marketing value to using mf, will you be in situations that require ISO over 800, are you using a tripod for virtually all images, can you live with dof that's about two stops less than dslr, are you ok with limited number of zoom lenses, etc.

My use of mf for seniors is generally limited to my winter "model/rep/ambassador" images when I have time, can do what I want, and am not worried about a day packed with back to back sessions and the resulting workflow from those kind of days. While I sell a nice percentage of wall portraits to seniors, the overwhelming majority of those are composites of 3-7 images so the quality differences of mfd over dlsr are not that noticeable as each image isn't that large.

Of course, there's a certain satisfaction that you are producing files and images that are superior to your dslr work that is hard to put a price on. That doesn't show up on profit and loss statement.
David,

You are absolutely right. I am lucky that I am a relatively low volume shooter. I won't shoot more than 50-60 Seniors a year, and no more than 4 a week. My clients really do get undivided attention from me.

I'm extremely fortunate to have done a fantastic job at differentiating myself in a overall very saturated industry. MFD has this appeal of creating a. overall better files and b. perceived higher value from my clients. Silly? Perhaps. But I'm at the price point where they will appreciate it.

I expect (and almost look forward to) the hiccups of switching systems to be quite honest. Might sound a little reckless, but I pride myself on not only making things work but making them work well.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Mario one thing to point out on flash sync . To achieve these 1/800 and 1/1600 shutter speeds you really need very very short flash duration strobes and a lot of flash systems out there will not get there so in many cases that would mean cutting power to get those short flash durations. So you really need to pick your strobe systems correctly to match. On the camera system Hassy can go to 1/800, Phase can go to 1/1600 with there LS lenses. Leica S2 does not have any leaf lenses in the market yet although its been promised and Pentax i don't believe has any Leaf shutter lenses and is a focal plane system. So if you need these high sync speeds than right now Hassy and Phase are the ones to consider. I think the Pentax like Nikon/Canon go to 1/250. Now this really depends on YOUR needs and in a lot of case the weather zone your in. I'm in the desert with tons of hot sun so for me it is a real need. Its all about balance here. Good luck in your choices and as we always say around here do your homework and try them out first. A lot of money here to be guessing at it.

BTW that was the highlights on it but its very involved on the whole flash system camera system combination. If the high sync is a major priority for you than you really need to investigate it.
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
This is a great rehash of all the systems and how the peripheral issues are so important... things like flash duration become very important with these LS lenses.

It's actually why I like the RZ so much. It's a tweener of sorts with regards to flash capability. It has a higher flash sync than focal plane cameras, but not so high that I run into problems with slow durations with my strobes. The downside is the max shutter speed (and the fact that the camera is a tank). :)

That's why I think the Hassy system is so nice for portrait/senior work... it sits in nice place, IMO, as far as capabilities with its flash system and lens selection.

Mario hasn't said so, but he's been using regular pocket wizards (unless something has changed) and the slower sync associated with non-ttl sync speeds on the canon system... so the higher sync of the LS lenses and all will be a whole new world.

I personally LOVE the fact that I don't even think about sync speed anymore... that my lenses sync at any speed. Leaf shutter lenses are so liberating for my kind of work. Maybe not so much for others. I might just pick up the next iteration phase 645 body to use with a couple of the LS lenses alongside of my RZ.

Mario... a cheaper way to get into MF while not changing your current workflow is to continue shooting canon and start out with the RZ67 Pro IID (which uses a mamiya mount back). Lenses are stupidly cheap and very good. They're all leaf shutter lenses as well. Continue to shoot canon when needed and then later on add a 645 body and few DF lenses as well... the back can then be used on both bodies. The rendering of the RZ lenses is a whole different world than the 645 lenses. Not better/worse... just different.

I still pull out my 5Dii on occasion.
 

David Schneider

New member
Small point, but in looking at systems, it's worth noticing that MamiyaLeaf does not show the RZ67 line on it's website. I don't know what that means, but if I was thinking about an RZ ProIID, I'd fine out before I got one.

Even smaller point is while the RZ Pro IID has great curb appeal and is an impressive looking piece of gear, there is some added weight to think about if doing on-location work, and based on the sample images, that happens a lot of the time. Add to that the back-up camera/lens you probably have handy in case of the unforeseen and the weight starts to get up there.
 
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