The S2

[PeterA]

I would be interested to hear from representatives of MFD systems regarding their view on the Leica S2 type camera. Current users and owners of MFD systems might chip in as well with their thoughts.

Do they think that thsi camera will take market share away from their system?
Do they think that the market for 'larger than 35mm' format cameras and systems will steal share from 35mm systems?
Do they think that CaNikon will respond?
Do they think they might bring out their own version of the S2?
and finally...
What doesnt an S2 type camera do which MFD camera systems do do?

Pete

 

[fotografz]

Peter, I think this camera is squarely aimed at "inbetweeners."

On the professional front I think this is an alternative to those high meg DSLRs, and all the smaller sensor MFD cameras like my H3D-II/31 ... or any MFD camera with sensors using microlenses. Depending on S2 pricing, I suspect that is where some of the sales volume will be sourced from.

Considering the proposed lens system which includes leaf shutter versions and T/S options, assumed tethered ability with Phase One, there is a lot of commercal work this camera appears very capable of doing. A good example of that is the job I am doing this week ... 20 set-ups in an automotive Tech Center. Others might include location food shoots, fashion, even catalog work ... but probably most importantly higher energy shoots that pros bought or rented a high meg AF Canon for.

This is a smarter solution compared to trying to cram more resolution into a 35mm frame and the consequences that has had on image quality.

Based on functionality (setting aside price for now), I would not see the S2 as competiting with my H3D-II/39 (or H3D-II/60 when I get it : -) ... I use that on a full featured view camera more than I do on the H body. I could easily see it replacing my H3D-II/31 and eliminating any consideration of a higher meg DSLR like Canon and the upcoming Sony... or anything big from Nikon that may be coming.

But price and service will be two key considerations that are yet to be defined. If it's the same old service we all hate, and the price is anywhere near the big MFD backs like a Phase One or Hasselblad 60 meg back ... it'd be a tough call to buy into this S2 system.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Agree completely Marc. Service on this is my KEY factor. I am not kidding here. Been there and done that with 2 systems from leica and i simply can't afford not to have a replacement with 24 hours like almost all of us MF shooters can realize today through Phase, Hassy, Sinar and Leaf dealers. The way Leica is structured they cannot do that through retail stores.

 

[fotografz]

Well, it IS concievable that Phase One dealers could be included in the mix ... just like you can order a Hasselblad H3D from B&H or Calumet ... or from a Hasselblad dedicated dealer. It's the customer's choice. Obviously anyone in the know would go with the dealer for personalized service.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Exactly what i want. BTW not saying I do not love my dear friends at Dale labs and Camera west, these guy's are the best around but they can't do replacements. That is not my point and will buy if I go this route many things from both of them but will buy the body through Phase. Most MF shooters will do the same thing. Seriously this is my only nit pick . i do like very much what i am seeing and reading and it fits me very well with my work. Again compelling is key here because i am really happy with what I have in a huge way

 

[PeterA]

hey there Marc and Guy - just logging in as a do some trading in Chicago. I think that markets are seeing their worst now..fear is running rampant and everyone has finally woken up - people are losing their hair...so petey is now going long for the first time this year...love the smell of napalm in the morning! :ROTFL::ROTFL:

so what has this to do with the S2 you ask?

if Leica get the price value equation correct. if they get quality control correct. If they get distribution and service correct. Then they have done something quite revolutionary in the photographic market.

If they get execution wrong - all they have done is defined the next market the next battlefield for others to benefit from..and others will come - no way will CaNikon want to see there 'high end' segment disappear in a cloude of German Pnazer division dust - no way..

I agree the camera is a superior DSLR with ergonomic advantages over the typical MFD camera. I can see CaNikon getting the old white Board out already...hahahha

oh yeah back to photography..hmm the only 'problem' I see with this system is execution risk. I am concerned about the one year( +???) delay to market. I am not concerned about their ability to make the glass or their ability to get a camera to make a DNG file..over to Capture One or Adobe for processing of raw file thank you very much.

but will the number of cameras made be enough to create a critical mass before CaNikon respond? Will the service and support levels be good enough for a high end pro? - whatever whoever that is?

great idea - but execution will now be the key. the system looks fantastic and has me drooling...I dont give a rats about Leaf lenses HAssie has that market well and trully sewn up...but a handholdable 39 megapixels getting fed with fsast Leica glass?..hmm thats just the ants pants I reckon.

not surprised that with all teh work Thierry etc are doing at photokina we havent heard responses from the existing 'players'..maybe in a few days..when they pick their jaws up off the ground?..

 

[pcunite]

Do they think that the market for 'larger than 35mm' format cameras and systems will steal share from 35mm systems?

This is the only statement I am qualified to answer. I am a part of the 35mm market and unless something drastic is announced I am going with the Canon 5DII. You can see examples of my work in the Lighting Forum. Even though I am passing on pre-Photokina announcements (still waiting to see what is yet to be) it is only a stop-gap measure for me.

The 5DII will most likely be my last 35mm. Most of us wanting MFD but not 60mp are doing so for ourselves and NOT because of a client. I won't spend $40,000 on a camera for my own pleasure or for a customer who won't notice. This is why MFD prices will have to come down as I suspect others are like me.

However, because of my annoyances with 35mm quality I still want MFD and will get one. Now the market can sell me a used one or they can sell something like the S2. I think you are going to see Canon and Nikon for sure enter this field. 35mm for speed/weddings and MFD for strategic/planned shots.

The only mistake I think the S2 has made is the size of the sensor. It is not that much larger than 35mm and if there are any compromises from current MFD then I will pass. I have seen MFD quality and that is what I personally want and since I don't have to have it for a client anyway I will get what I want. In short the S2 is only a success IF the image quality is just like current MFD at 37mp. If I am going to compromise I will just stay with Canon.

 

[kipling]

In my opinion this was a brilliant marketing idea from Leica.

They had nowhere to compete on the playing field, so they drew a new map. If they are as smart as this leads me to believe they are, then this camera will be introduced at a price point symilar to the H3D II 31.

As is, there is no stopping Canikony and the dslr machinery. And the MFDB companies have all but lost touch with reality with their new true wide really really full format, twisting, turning, anabolic steroid sensors made exclusively for ex-investmentbankers and russian oil executives. So by driving a wedge between them with a camera that will have Phaseone software and the latest sensor tech. and those amazing Leica lenses is a brilliant move.

:salute:

As long as they don't shoot themselves in the foot with a huge price tag, it should be a home run.

 

[LJL]

Well, as somebody that is shooting higher end DSLR's now, and looking at MF as a preferred direction, I can say that the S2 does look like it could pull me away from the higher end DSLR segment, and also keep me from worrying too much over the rest of the MF segment. We all talk about the image being the critical piece. The sensors we know have the capability, so it starts to come right back around to the glass, and for me, Leica may have a very nice edge over others.

I have been reading, researching, wending through discussions, playing with different systems on the MF side, and honestly, though there are some incredible capabilities out there and coming. This S2 is quite bit of a game changer in my eyes. It has the size, handling, and much of the very good stuff about DSLRs, with the imaging capability of the MF crowd. Do I want/need 60MP? Not at this point. Would 37MP, 50% larger sensor than 35mm FF meet most needs? For me, absolutely. The real test is going to be the support and service for this new offering. If Leica, through Phase or whomever, get that nailed like other MF players, or Canon and Nikon for their DSLRs, I think they will succeed.

Will Canon, Nikon and maybe others toss their hats into this "pro format" (Leica's words) ring? Maybe. Will they do it more cheaply? Most likely. Will it be as good? Well, they still have not been able to produce any glass that even comes close to Leica for their present highest end DSLRs, so that contributing factor must change dramatically, which has not been their strength to date. There is good glass, but nothing close to what Leica has been making nearly forever. So, given that scenario, would I be more likely to pick up a cheaper Canon or Nikon that could enter this same "pro format" space with their own offerings? Probably not. I have that level of quality now and am not as impressed.

What I would wish for is a bit more modest pricing, but the Red Dot folks have not been known for that. IF, and this is a big one, they did offer the S2 and glass at a competitive price, I think they would have a hard time keeping up with demand. I do think a lot of pros would look at the S2 and move into it for the majority of their needs, if the IQ and pro service is there. There will always be needs for bigger, and MF is heading that way now, but that is probably a much smaller overall market segment than what could be handled nicely by this S2, I think.

Just my thinking on this. I know I will be watching this very closely, and if things are what they say, and service and support are at the level pros need (next day replacement loaner, week or less turnaround on repairs, timely firmware updates as needed, etc.), I will most likely be dumping most of my DSLR gear, and going with this S2 and glass. It looks that good to me....on paper at least. The images will tell the final story, as will price and service, but this could be a camera to pull me away from high end DSLR as well as meet most of my MF "needs" at this stage.

LJ

 

[TRSmith]

I tend to be in pcunite's camp, but with at least one caveat. At this early stage it might be impossible to assess how the S2 will fit in the mix, but one very clear advantage it has in my mind over the current line of MF systems is weather sealing. It suggests the portability and ruggedness of a current high end "35".

Once the images can be compared side by side, it will be interesting to see whether the compromise is on the part of the MF or the S2.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

LJ ,I would maybe do the same if all the levels are meet as you describe. i could use the speed but I will not put myself out on a limb if the levels are not there. Really just that simple. I will not risk a 30k investment as a pro small business owner and Leica needs to look extremely careful at this because about 100 percent of us have said relatively the same thing. We need hand holding

My word of the day on this is COMPELLING

 

[LJL]

Guy,
I agree with you. For me, the "compelling" thing may be different than you, since I am not into a MF system at this point. However, my present choices are leaning toward things like Hasselblad, Sinar, and yes, I am still looking hard at Phase, especially if they get the leaf shutter lenses part moving faster. I do like their backs. Not as thrilled with the body and its performance, and that is why the S2 keeps exciting me at this point. David's blog (excellent perspective) does start to get at some important detail. Is 1.5fps for this kind of camera fast enough? Sure better than 1.5spf.

I would like to see a few faster lenses, but then the higher ISO capabilities being touted could help there, except for DOF control. Is f2.5 fast enough? Might be for how and what I would be shooting, especially if the f2.5 is usable and sharp to the edges, and not a f2.8 lens that needs to be stopped down to f5.6 or so to get the sharpness.

The service and support is by far the most concerning. I too have gone through the M8 debacle, and that alone still gives me chills. No way I could ever incorporate it into my pro work with confidence. (Canon has replaced shutters, repaired lenses, etc., inside a week, not 3-4 months or more as Leica.) That is really important for me. I worry about Sinar and Leaf on that front, less so with Phase and Hassy.

Is 37MP compelling? Well, for most of my shooting and plans at this stage, yes....but only if those images are as tight and clean as say the 30MP or so now available from others. If closer to the 39MP, which it should be, that is icing in my book. I really do not need 50-60MP files sizes, and if I do I can rent, or by that time, Leica may have another iteration of the S2, though that could be a tough trick and pixels would surely be smaller than the 6 microns they have now.

Bottom line, if Leica can hit the service and support marks, can deliver at or above the present marketing specs, and can do so at a price to get folks like us into their system more easily, I think that would cover the "compelling" part for me. Still need to see images, details of offerings, prices and availability, but so far things are looking magnetic to me.

LJ

 

[pcunite]

Word on the street is that Hasselblad has pricing below $15,000 for some models. This is heating up fast! :clap:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Need to find that ski mask quick:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:


I'm playing with my new mamiya 28mm and my Elinchrom rangers. Now this is fun stuff

 

[Uaiomex]

Really? That gives me the chills!

On the S2, I think the hardest part on acquiring such an expensive camera like this one, is the high rate of relentless technical developments. At present rate, this camera will be a great photo-taking dinosaur in short. It is a tough decision for a photographer to come with $50K to add this system to his/her workflow. If I could charge 10X what I presently charge for pj'ing a wedding, I'd buy into it.
For the time being, a 5D2 is perfect and it is so cheap I can buy 2 of them and replace them once the 5D3 comes out.
I'm comparing the S2 to Canon (and Nikon as well) because I thinK is a camera that operationally behaves more like a dslr than medium format, despite its quality will be comparable to the bigger one. The S2 sensor shape and size is closer to 35 than to any 120.
I wish Leica a total success and the best of luck. They deserve it for having the huevos.
Eduardo

PS. Will Leica have an official S type trade-in program? A permanent one, would make a really big difference.

Word on the street is that Hasselblad has pricing below $15,000 for some models. This is heating up fast! :clap:

 

[LJL]

PS. Will Leica have an official S type trade-in program? A permanent one, would make a really big difference.

I would very much doubt this. However, this does not stop dealers from offering various arrangements, just as some do now. So, I would not count on Leica trying to manage that aspect, but I would look to dealers that have high inventory turns, great customer service, and a desire to help get folks into something like this. There are several members on this forum that come to mind, but it is up to them to decide how they are going to help market the S2 within whatever parameters Leica may set on pricing. I love the concept.

LJ

 

[Bob]

As a fairly recent purchaser of P45+/MAMY/Horseman setup, the nicecest thing I see in this deal is maybe some Leica glass for the AFD.
The S2 can't so shifts, and tilt/shift lenses are no substitute on the wide end of things IMO.
The S2 stands a chance with me of replacing the Mamy if it has a very short shutter lag and a multi per sec frame rate. I don't see it replacing the removable back for some applications.
Now it all depends on the price of a well rounded kit.
If it approximates Warren Buffet's recent investment in Goldman, then I will have to pass.
-bob

 

[Woody Campbell]

I'll stick with my H3D-39 kit for now and get a bit more value out of it before I consider the S2. I'm also happy to let the rest of you work out the teething difficulties. I'll check this space again in a year.

 

[Jack]

I'm also happy to let the rest of you work out the teething difficulties.

Amen to that! Been there more than once myself and have the tee-shirts -- and don't need any more...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Same here. I am NOT going to be the guinea pig again with my money. I'm actually quite freaking happy with what I have. Unless leica wants to loan me one to test out which frankly is a another brilliant idea