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Thread: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

  1. #51
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Something (and no, it wasn't the specter of the S2..;>) prompted Hasselblad/Imacon (and their holding company) to precipitate a MFDB price war. Over the the next x months we'll see a press release from someone that will drop in like the key piece in a jigsaw puzzle.
    Yes... Canon or Nikon wants to join the picnic...

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Another thought is maybe Hassy has decided to abandon their closed system approach? That might explain a desire to "clear out" existing inventory...
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    The move away from a closed system would be interesting - and cause a hell of a stir to say the least. There is also the possibility they want to change the form factor of all or part of the H3 line..

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Indeed. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...."
    can't get fooled again!
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Something (and no, it wasn't the specter of the S2..;>) prompted Hasselblad/Imacon (and their holding company) to precipitate a MFDB price war. Over the the next x months we'll see a press release from someone that will drop in like the key piece in a jigsaw puzzle.
    Why don't you think that the 21MP 1Ds3, the $3000 A900 and 5D2, and the entry of Sinar/Rollei/Leaf into the MF market is to blame? They could hardly have expected Leica's entry, but if they had, trying to squeeze them with a price drop would also make sense.
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    A price signal of 40% is a pretty big signal in competitive markets - this is a declaration of war amongst the manufacturers - and recent purchasers are just suffering some collateral damage. Sure we will benefit from lower pricing for teh next purchase...ahem assuming there will be a next purchase .
    Hasselblad has made a really strange move here. Perhaps they are sitting pretty financially, and are making a pre-emptive strike against Rollei/Sinar/Leaf/Leica/Canikon. I am sceptical, however.

    Putting price pressure on others also means pressure from below from second-hand equipment. By abandoning the trade-up strategy, they are letting the second-hand equipment market flourish, and since these backs are made to last, they will be around for a long time (like Leica's old M lenses). They could try to kill this market by dropping support and/or reducing parts availability, but that would make them even more unpopular. Phase backs would look a lot more attractive in that scenario, which would mean that Hasselblad would not sell any more H3s.

    And adding value to new backs could be hard. Given that each pro photographer has specific needs, and a certain budget, the existence of 39MP backs on the second-hand market could seriously put a damper on anyone's need/desire to upgrade to 50. I mean, how much extra resolution is that anyway, <10% linear? What premium will anyone want to pay on that? How many people will choose 39MP as their final stop?


    I personally think that one thing will come back to haunt Hasselblad: they are probably the least favorite manufacturer at the moment, due to the H1->H2->H3 transitions, going proprietary after people bought into their system, and then giving photographers who know better a line of B.S. about "optimizing" the 28mm in software being a good thing (Leica will let the air out of that particular balloon, thankfully), and now giving massive price-drops with no warning, and no recourse for recent purchasers of gear. In other words, if the switch from one manufacturer to another becomes easier due to lower prices overall, Hasselblad is probably the first company which will lose.
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    In an earlier post I mentioned it was a competitive move against Phamiya, Sinar,etc, - but also to keep the gap between the ever plunging price/performance gap of uber-DSLRs (with the advent of the $2500 21MP FF body) and at least entry level MFDBs from getting to large.

    As for the S2 - putting pricing pressure on Leica this early is nothing but a pleasant side-effect from Hassy's perspective. The S2 is ONLY a competitor when it is out there and selling - were almost a year away from that happening. A year in DSLR (and now MFDB) land is a lifetime from a competitive aspect.

    In addition, despite the S2's tech strengths, the biggest threat it faces to gaining any traction with pros (vs. just well-healed gearheads) and thus posing ANY threat isn't Hassy, Phamiya, etc - it's Leica and what it does or doesn't do re: S&S, teething problems, etc.

    Success for the S2 is it being mentioned in the same breath as an option by Hassy, Sinar and Phamiya buyers. Failure is it being relegated to discussion on Leica-centric gear forums only.

    tech strengths aside, they can't afford the S2 becoming positioned in the market like another M8 or DMR (small production, niche brand-loyal customers). If they pull-it off in the pro market (NOT just x units sold to Leicaphiles) it will remake Leica. If they drop the ball....

    The big questions between now and summer of '10 are when will CanNikon enter the 'tweener market and how much damage will they do to the S2's price/performance curve -- and MFDB pricing?

    Also, does Hassy have something cooking that compelled them to lose some inventory that could change the game once again - or do they know of a threat coming that we don't?

    Like a bloody soap opera.


    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Why don't you think that the 21MP 1Ds3, the $3000 A900 and 5D2, and the entry of Sinar/Rollei/Leaf into the MF market is to blame? They could hardly have expected Leica's entry, but if they had, trying to squeeze them with a price drop would also make sense.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    As for the impact on buyers of late from the Hassy drops, I feel for folks like Woody, etc.

    Given the $$$ involved and drama of the move in a staid market like MF, some sort of protection for ambushed buyers, at least at the start of what is the MFDB segment's slide into DSLR market dynamics would go a long way to retain customer loyalty.

    Welcome to the world of teh 1Ds3 in MFDB land. Buy it for $8000 now and have the rug pulled out from under your resale value shortly thereafter with a $2500 competitor - from the same company.

    No trade-in program, no credit towards squat, no apologies and no 1/2 bottle of Pinot Noir beforehand.

    The more pros that opt for or consider uber-DSLRs due to price vs. MFDB and/or clamor for more DSLR-like features in their MF kit, the more they are forcing folks like Hassy, etc to start treating MFDB like honkin' DSLRs: fast model churn, stepwise price drops, startling depreciation in the used market, limited trade-up programs, etc. Wait until the #$%^ engineering creep starts and they saddle your back with 101 useless 'neat' features.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Given the potential market for the S2 and these price drops which are sure to precipitate a price war, what is there to pursuade Canon or Nikon to enter such a tiny market? Once Nikon get's the D3x out why wouldn't the big two concentrate on their current product lines with perhaps improvements to noise, DR, etc rather than tooling up an entire product line for sales which are in the magnitude of thousands worldwide rather than the probable 100,000's which the 5D mkII/1Ds mkIII or D700/D3x market, selling to a current user base with an investment in lenses. Given the current (relatively) tiny MFDB market and even tinier 'tweener' market, I just don't see them bothering. Canon may want to sell more megapixels in the 1Ds mkVI but selling a new lens line isn't going to do it IMO, people buy a Canon for the convenience and cost over a MF solution.
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Actually Canon and Nikon should honestly stay out of it. they have the market tied up in 35mm , making a expansion above that size is a major investment and actually more competition from Hassy, Phase and Sinar in that market plus let's add Leica to that now. BUT Canon and NIKON are huge companies that can spare the millions to do it, so they may try it if they feel there losing market share in 35mm. It's all about market share and what the can get from the competition and how to make share holders happy. Bottom line it is a three word answer ( Share Holder Value)
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    I think the 'tweener market has MUCH bigger potential than one would think. Leica ahs it's challenges with the S2, but they have the right idea. Deep MP performance, convenience of an SLR but the S/N, DoF and absolute IQ of a MFDB sans the hassles.

    I can't see them entering the MFDB market, but both are running out of MP on 24x36mm room for acceptable (to an SLR shooter) ISO performance. I think you'll see one or both (Nikon MX rumor and Nikon adverts of something "BIG" coming at fall wedding/portrait trade show) push FF down the stack from one-time luxury item to common-place and move > 24x36mm into their "pro" line with a set of top-end lenses (or whatever Canon calls top-end).

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    I think this all will have to do with price, glass, and expectations.

    Leica can enter this market for one main reason ... Optical Excellence. If these new "S" lenses are anything like what we expect from Leica, there will be those who will opt for the system even at a higher price point ... as long as the other stuff works well.

    But if Canon or Nikon come forward with a "Tweener" MF system, they'll have to deal with some optical skepticism, and the price to value relationship. I have no doubt that Canon could come out with a S class camera ... question is, what would be hanging off the front of the box? And, it all would have to be priced well against the current MF crop of cameras ... which are improving in terms of handling each year.

    Canon wides still have issues, and Nikon is disappointingly slow in replacing their aging prime lenses ... considering the pent up demand for new optics from both C & N, one would think that to be a money making priority.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    I made up my mind that I was not interested in 50 or 60 megapixels before the announcements. 40 megapixels is plenty for me and my uses. Perhaps Hasselblad and others have got the same feedback from many many people - who knows?. I think the biggest lever one has in a market that is maturing into terms of technology and therefore ability to differentiate is ..price.

    These prices are going to force competitive response from other manufacturers - or other manufacturers are going to lose market share very very quickly. Unless of course people believe that the Hasselblad specs are inferior to other manufacturers offers.

    So Hasselblad is saying compete @ $20-30K boys or get out of business. i tis interesting to note how manufacturers have been switching between Kodak and Dalsa willy nilly lately...perhaps the chip makers are having their own little price war?

    bwt I dont think that CaNikon are going to be too impressed with these developments. I would like to know how many 1DsMk111 machines are sold pa - people may be surprised to see how few are sold at full rack prices - compared to their one down models.

    I would love to get market statistics on the total size of the so called professional shooters market - perhaps defined as yearly sales of 1dsmk11 type bodies in 35mm land and digi backs. Would it be as much as 300,000 individuals around the world willing to spend between $10K and $35K pa.a on the latest and greatest? I dont know the answers to these questions.

    However I suspect that the number of top end annual buyers would not be as large as 300K. Now add in a global recession of in determinant duration and extent....

    Also throw in the fact that a refurbished P45 may be just as good as a P45+ for 90% of uses?? ..etc etc etc..maybe teh total size of teh market is being squeezed by the second hand trade up market as well as teh number of manufacturing competitors.

    I would love to get some stats of number of full rack price units sold pa in Canon Nikon and MFD manufacturers sales. The answer to that question allows a definition of market size in terms of revenue - all other analysis becomes a lot more clear after that.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Agree, some market specs w/segmentation would be VERY interesting.

    While I agree a LOT of folks would be compelled by the S2 due to the promises of the glass, the same folks will also be willing write-the S2 off as an option at the first rumors of M8-esque issues re: reliability, consistent behavior, slow service, etc.

    Leica will always sell well to Leica fans. The challenge is to sell to folks who (in their minds) have LOTs of options and would normally never consider, for a variety of reasons, Leica. Tougher nut to crack.

    Had the degree of Phase involvement held up to the press releases, that would have gone a long way to reassuring potential non-typical customers. Even the ongoing soap- opera as to who is doing what re: the relationship has GOT to have some folks wondering "Hell, if they can't even get that straight on day 1...".

    So far (and it is still very early) Leica appears to be treating the S2 re: sales, support, service, etc., like a large R10 and that COULD end up being a tragic mistake. I hope things change re: Phase and the firm starts giving some concrete guidance as to how it intends to sell, warranty and S&S the product ASAP - BEFORE it is released.

    Of the two DSLR placers entering the 'tweener market, they do have a LOT of work to do re: glass that will support 30-40MP (in Canon's case 21 MP).

    That said, I suspect the first player to post a claim will be Nikon. Yes there is the mX rumor and adverts re: the upcoming WPPI (sic?) show, but they've also shown the most innovation and willingness to break outside their typical comfort zone with the new Board members.

    The D3 and D700 were sudden shifts in behavior and in many cases innovative. The 14-24 and 24-70 G are outstanding WA optics and clearly designed for absolute IQ. Much like Leica and the after-thought that is the R10, the lack of announcements by Nikon at the show may be linked to where the resources are quietly going outside their normal market. On the other hand, maybe not.

    Canon is still the old Canon so far and may play camp-follower to Nikon, at least initially. The 5DII shook up the market, but it wasn't due to innovation or a sudden change in behavior by the firm, it was all due to price - a tactic anyone with enough resources can use. Glass wise - so far nothing of interest.

    It's all speculation, but still fun ;>

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Jusr a flat question ; what will be the CFV's price or will it remain the same ?

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by sinwen View Post
    Jusr a flat question ; what will be the CFV's price or will it remain the same ?
    Yes, it remains the same and will be bundled with the 40IF at the same price.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Thanks for the answer.

    For you who spent a lot of time comparing, which entry level back gives the most for the money, CFV, P+20 or something else ?

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by sinwen View Post
    Thanks for the answer.

    For you who spent a lot of time comparing, which entry level back gives the most for the money, CFV, P+20 or something else ?
    Depends on the camera. If you use a Hasselblad 200 series it's the only the CFV. If you use a Hasselblad 500 series camera it's also the CFV IMO. That is what that back was made for. No sync cords, etc.

    If you use a Contax 645, then I'd look at the Phase One. Their backs fit that camera like a glove.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    well, at least it will keep pressure on incoming leica and sinar/leaf/rolleiflex
    most likely, it's really bad news for phaseone-branded mamiya, as with almost non-existent price difference one will be hard-pressed not to choose hasselblad.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yes, it remains the same and will be bundled with the 40IF at the same price.
    And for someone like myself, an amateur who wanted to get into MF digital at a 'reasonable cost'....I don't think anything beats the 503CWD-II kit with the 40IF lens. Even with the teething problems I had, I'd do it all over again.

    Gary Benson
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Gary - BTW how did that work out?

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by irakly View Post
    well, at least it will keep pressure on incoming leica and sinar/leaf/rolleiflex
    most likely, it's really bad news for phaseone-branded mamiya, as with almost non-existent price difference one will be hard-pressed not to choose hasselblad.
    You know what is ironic? I bought a Phase One back - with a Phase One body - so I can shoot Hasselbald lenses - which Hasselblad doesn't allow me to do - except with a cropped sensor.

    Hasselblad is its own worst enemy sometimes.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Depends on the camera. If you use a Hasselblad 200 series it's the only the CFV. If you use a Hasselblad 500 series camera it's also the CFV IMO. That is what that back was made for. No sync cords, etc.

    If you use a Contax 645, then I'd look at the Phase One. Their backs fit that camera like a glove.
    I use a 501cm. Do you need sync cord with PhaseOne P+20 ?

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    yes the p20+ will require a sync cable from the lens to the back.
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Peter,
    There is nothing stopping you from using a Hasselblad CFII-Series back with your PhaseOne 645, or Hasselblad H-Series, or Hasselblad V-Series, or Contax 645AF. All of these camera platforms will allow you to use the vast array of Hasselblad C/CF/CFi (and F) series lenses via an appropriate adapter.

    In fact, the Hasselblad CFII-Series backs can be mounted in both horizontal and vertical orientation on a V-Series camera. This prevents you from having to rotate 6x6cm camera, who's ergonomics were never designed for vertical orientation.

    Regards,

    Jordan Miller
    DTG

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    You know what is ironic? I bought a Phase One back - with a Phase One body - so I can shoot Hasselbald lenses - which Hasselblad doesn't allow me to do - except with a cropped sensor.

    Hasselblad is its own worst enemy sometimes.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Hi Jordan, I am one of those foolish people who bought an H3D11-39 in the last few months. i cant use my back on a V series anything. How do I use an F series lens on a Leaf based body ? I know I can use the CF and CFE seris lenses via adaptor - but I cant use eg the 110/2 F or FE on an H series body.

    Cheers Pete

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Sometimes?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    You know what is ironic? I bought a Phase One back - with a Phase One body - so I can shoot Hasselbald lenses - which Hasselblad doesn't allow me to do - except with a cropped sensor.

    Hasselblad is its own worst enemy sometimes.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Jeeze, give it a rest.

    The only Zeiss/Hasselblad lenses you can't use are the F series which are for Focal Plane cameras. The H camera is a Leaf Shutter camera. Not really all that hard to figure out.

    The 200 series Focal Plane camera is long discontinued. NO ONE makes a 645 digital back for the 200 series camera. I'm sure it can be done since Hasselblad did one as an adjunt to the 500 series CFV back ... but the demand would be miniscule for the amount of development that would be required.

    We all use what works for us. Bashing Hasselblad, or Mamiya for that matter, is a load of horse ****. These cameras are used every day to put food on the table for thousands of shooters doing everything from everyday catalog work to high profile shoots for Vogue, etc.

    In those cases, what you need is something that works (for you), plain and simple. Guy goes off to NY for a shoot and comes home with the goods. I just did a grueling 2 day shoot in a tech center and delivered the goods this AM. Flawless, reliable high quality performance ... all the rest is internet chatter.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Hasselblad has made a lot of lenses in a lot of configurations. Takes a new user a while to sort it all out. I am as pleased as punch with the 110/2 F series lens I got from Jack and have subsequrntly bought a 50 and 250 in FE to use - with a Mamiya body.

    I might be mistaken but I think Marc - that you are one person who would like to see a focal plane H series body from Hasselblad so that you can use your FE series lenses..this would of course remove the necessity to buy a non Hasselbald body in order to get use of a less cropped sensor than the CFV1/11. the added benefits of course are stopped down metering and focus confirmation.

    It is a pity that Hasselblad dont have a focal plane body - perhaps in these sensitive times I may have come across as too critical with the off hand statement - "sometimes Hasselblad are their own worst enemy" - perhaps also my attempted self deprecating black humour with " I am one of those people 'foolish' enough to have bought an H3D11-39 in the last few months .." added to chagrin.

    Let me say that I am very happy with my H3D11-39 and ALL my HC lenses - I would of course been happier to buy the camera back today than 3 months ago! - and I do look forward to many years happy and productive use from same.


    Cheers
    Pete

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Hasselblad has made a lot of lenses in a lot of configurations. Takes a new user a while to sort it all out. I am as pleased as punch with the 110/2 F series lens I got from Jack and have subsequently bought a 50 and 250 in FE to use - with a Mamiya body.

    I might be mistaken but I think Marc - that you are one person who would like to see a focal plane H series body from Hasselblad so that you can use your FE series lenses..this would of course remove the necessity to buy a non Hasselbald body in order to get use of a less cropped sensor than the CFV1/11. the added benefits of course are stopped down metering and focus confirmation.

    It is a pity that Hasselblad dont have a focal plane body - perhaps in these sensitive times I may have come across as too critical with the off hand statement - "sometimes Hasselblad are their own worst enemy" - perhaps also my attempted self deprecating black humour with " I am one of those people 'foolish' enough to have bought an H3D11-39 in the last few months .." added to chagrin.

    Let me say that I am very happy with my H3D11-39 and ALL my HC lenses - I would of course been happier to buy the camera back today than 3 months ago! - and I do look forward to many years happy and productive use from same.


    Cheers
    Pete
    Peter, yes I would like a H Focal Plane shutter camera, but not just for the F series lenses using an adapter. It'd be nice to use the AF HC lenses also. But in reality, I don't need it for 95% of the work I do. And as a reality check, it would be far more intelligent to rent for the other 5%.

    What some of us would like, and what would actually sell in enough quantity to justify making it, are two different things. I'd guess that if the 200 series camera had been selling like hot cakes, it wouldn't have been discontinued, let alone have justified further R&D to keep it modern and digital ready.

    Frankly, I'm NOT a fan boy of anything (even though I may come across that way at times.) What I am a fan of is stuff that relentlessly works and IQ that clients do not question. I was a fan of Leica Ms for 30+ years, but was the first critic of the M8 debacle, and subsequent service screw-ups.

    So, yes, after shooting a 8 hour wedding one day, then cranking out 20 set-ups in a Tech Center the following week, with no back talk from my H stuff ... just relentless performance ... my only regret is that I can't show the results here (the tech Center had yet to be introduced cars on dynos.)

    Frankly, these are primarily Pro cameras that pay for themselves. Amateurs (not a quality comment) are wacked by pricing issues ... but those shooting for money get this paid for pretty quickly, and only upgrade if they actually need something more in order to make more money. My H3D-II will be written off by next April ... essentially paid for by line item rental fees in every bid I do. The only difference between the price I paid and the new prices is how long it takes my clients to pay it off

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Gary - BTW how did that work out?
    It's still clicking. I've been using the camera and seeing no effect on the images and I suppose I've gotten somewhat used to it by now. I'm leaning towards sending it back to Hasselblad to be adjusted/tightened up. I had set a date of October 1st in my own mind to make a decision one way or the other, so I think I'll be giving David Chapman at PPR a call tomorrow. I do love the camera and expect to keep it for many, many years so I guess it's worth the hassle of sending it back and being without it for a couple weeks. This is just a really nice time of year in Alaska for taking outdoor landscape photos....before winter arrives and it gets very cold and dark.

    Gary Benson
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    So, I am considering selling one or two not-so-often-used-but-expensive Leica M lenses and picking up some kind of second-hand MF kit, and then looking around for a cheap new, or second-hand digital back to try my hand at this, mostly for portraits, but perhaps also for macro/studio use. Listening in here I am kinda thinking that some kind of Phase One back might be my preference, but I don't really have a way to compare at the moment, and since I don't know when I will have the money to pull it all together, I don't want to bother a dealer.

    Above all, I am looking for more than 20MP (otherwise I am quite happy with my M8, and I *really* want to see the difference), and high dynamic range/low noise, preferably with at least a clean ISO 200. What kinds of prices am I looking at for my options here, like a P20 or similar backs, up to about a P25+? European prices are most useful, but I can convert American prices in my head if needed.

    Are there other options I should consider? I am just trying to get an overview clear in my head.

    Due to all the weird decisions made recently, I would like to avoid Hasselblad.
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    There's always the Conta....

    naaa, you wouldn't like it... :-)

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    I do like the Contax. I also like the Rollei 6008AF, and might even consider a newer Hasselblad V. I just don't know enough about them to make intelligent decisions and there are few enough of the first two around to make research difficult. This is surely a FAQ question, so if there is a body of knowledge anywhere, or a book I can buy to read up on this, just point me in the right direction.

    Why did you choose the Contax, Victor? What is the value of a Contax 645+80/2 in great shape? Is the waist-level finder easy to find? The prism finder? Which is better to have, or perhaps both, or is it just preference? A million questions
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Sorry to hear still clicking, but I'm sure they'll tweak it. I'd wait until the snow was say thigh-deep and it got dark at 4pm . Nasty enough you want to stay inside but enough time before the holiday season that you can have it back in time.

    Gotta get me one of those CWDs ASAP. Keep hearing how it's a 16MP back that thinks its a 25MP unit....

    until
    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    It's still clicking. I've been using the camera and seeing no effect on the images and I suppose I've gotten somewhat used to it by now. I'm leaning towards sending it back to Hasselblad to be adjusted/tightened up. I had set a date of October 1st in my own mind to make a decision one way or the other, so I think I'll be giving David Chapman at PPR a call tomorrow. I do love the camera and expect to keep it for many, many years so I guess it's worth the hassle of sending it back and being without it for a couple weeks. This is just a really nice time of year in Alaska for taking outdoor landscape photos....before winter arrives and it gets very cold and dark.

    Gary Benson
    Eagle River, Alaska

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Carsten,

    Your first decision is probably focal plane shutter or leaf shutter as that will narrow your system decision matrix pretty significantly. Then look at body features and lens line-up and/or third-party lens mounting options. Each of the major systems has their own set of benefits and disadvantages, and those choices will be different based on individual shooting style and requirements.

    Once that is settled then you can decide which back you want to mount on it. Do you want bigger LCD or highest resolution and do you like: the software used for conversion; software for tethered shooting; UI on the back; service and tech support; capture speed; ISO range and long exposure abilities? Answer those questions and your decision will come into focus. ()

    The good news is there is not any bad combination in the entire matrix of available choices!
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    I have not done any flash work, so I am not sure if I understand why it is so desirable to have a high flash sync in the studio. Isn't 1/250s enough for portraits and product shots?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I have not done any flash work, so I am not sure if I understand why it is so desirable to have a high flash sync in the studio. Isn't 1/250s enough for portraits and product shots?
    What current MF focal plane camera has 1/250th sync speed? The Contax 645 and Mamiya 645's are 1/125th. The sync for 200 series Hasselblad's is 1/90th.

    In the studio with fairly static subjects, you are right, sync speed may often not be an issue. It definitely is an issue when shooting some moving subjects where ambient light is present, or shooting outdoors when you want to use a more open aperture with fill flash.

    The problem arises because of the cost of these systems. A complete leaf shutter system like the H or Hy6 isn't inexpensive. To cost to duplicate the same coverage with a Focal Plane system can force a decision as to which is more important to how you work.

    Basically, I had parallel systems for a couple of years: a H3D/39 system, and a Mamiya AFD-II with an Aptus 75s system. It simply became to expensive to maintain both and I had to make a decision as to which was more important. For me it was easy ... higher sync speed is essential for the broader variety of my paying work.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    What kinds of moving subjects are you referring to here?

    I find it interesting that leaf shutters have higher flash sync but lower fastest times, meaning that you shoot more and more at the very top end of the shutter speed range, which are typically, what, 1/500s or 1/1000s? I presume that you find yourself shooting a lot at 1/250s and 1/500s with flash?
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    What kinds of moving subjects are you referring to here?

    I find it interesting that leaf shutters have higher flash sync but lower fastest times, meaning that you shoot more and more at the very top end of the shutter speed range, which are typically, what, 1/500s or 1/1000s? I presume that you find yourself shooting a lot at 1/250s and 1/500s with flash?
    In most cases, flash duration freezes action in a dark studio. Which is why is doesn't matter all that much which shutter system you use. But I have shot things like kids jumping skateboards in studio or a model flipping her hair where I needed some decent ambient light so we could see what we were doing and at 1/90th or 1/125th got subject ghosting. More importantly is outside, where ambient light is what it is, and I want a more open aperture to isolate the subject but need flash to fill deep shadows ... then it is quite often I am shooting at 1/800th with the H system @ ISO 50.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    I don't quite understand the connection between shooting outside with fill flash, and the need for high sync times... Could you run through an example for me?

    Thanks a lot for your answers, by the way. This is very helpful.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I don't quite understand the connection between shooting outside with fill flash, and the need for high sync times... Could you run through an example for me?

    Thanks a lot for your answers, by the way. This is very helpful.
    No problem. I'll give it a try.

    Let's say I need to shoot outdoors in bright ambient light ... like at a wedding where I don't have full control of where and when I shoot. Or a portrait session with strong ambient back light.

    Creatively, I want to isolate the subject from the background using the shallower depth of field of a more open aperture ... but need some fill flash to open up the deep shadows caused by the harsher light (like what's called "Raccoon Eyes" where the shadows darken the eye sockets for example ... or where people are wearing hats that put their faces in shadow ... or that back-lit subject who is all in shadow compared to the background.)

    If I use a more open aperture, the shutter speed now has to go up in order to meter the bright ambient light properly. With a Focal Plane shutter MF camera, that top shutter speed is 1/125th ... any higher shutter speed than 1/125th will not sync with the flash. 1/125th forces me to stop down the aperture to properly meter the ambient light. With the H camera, I can use up to 1/800th which allows a more open aperture ... and some Rollei lenses allow up to 1/1000th sync speed. So I can shoot with flash at f/2.8 instead of f/8 or f/11.

    This aspect was somewhat overcome with 35mm DSLRs when HSS (High Speed Sync) flash systems were incorporated into some camera systems. In actual practice, it's often a weak solution.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Aaaaah, a little light just went on. In other words, there are situations in which other factors force the shutter speed above flash sync speed. I hadn't thought of that. Hmm.

    So, there are two camps of cameras:

    FPS: Contax 645, Mamiya AFDx, ...
    LS: Rollei 6008, Hasselblad V/H, Rolleiflex/Leaf/Sinar Hy6...

    Did I miss anything important (other than ultra-unaffordable systems like the Sinar modular)?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    In the FPS camp there is the discontinued Hassy 200 series (take F, FE lenses).

    One advantage of a FPS system is you can use both FPS and LS lenses on it by simply locking open the LS on say the Hassy CF_ lenses.

    With FPS you can also use cross-platform lenses in stop-down mode (e.g. Hassy CF/F series and I think Mamiya M645 on say Contax 645). Could lower your entry/expansion costs re: glass and increase your choices. Lenses like M645 units are dirt cheap as system is long discontinued.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Here Carsten , good example of controlling the ambient light. In this case i am using fill flash at F14 for both shots . First i am shooting at 1/125 of a second which will obviously produce a darker ambient light on the background over 1/60 of a second in the second shot. Also if I could have went higher in shutter speed than the sky and such would even be darker. So a higher shutter speed can have real uses. Now I shoot with a Focal plane shutter with a top of 1/125 so what I have to do is add more fill to overcome the sun more than i would have too with a higher sync speed of a leaf shutter. This directly relates to what Marc is describing. For the focal plane shutters i have to find more ways to cheat this to a degree , more fill and longer lenses if i want less DOF

    So first at 1/125 and second at 1/60
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Guys there's an awful lot of misinformation further back in this thread and some of the comments are just plain wrong. I'll try and post a considered response when I get back home (I'm in UK recovering from Photokina before heading back to N.Z tonight), but in the mean time here's a link to what I posted on Luminous landscape regarding the price drops:

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...howtopic=28295

    Cheers
    Nick-T

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    The issue is with a leaf shutter your top shutter speed i thing the most is 1/1000 of a second and a FP shutter is 1/4000. So there is a downside on the speed side and wide open work without flash. Say you want to shoot at 2.8 with the sun than the focal plane would be better because you need that top speed to compensate for being that wide open in bright light. With a leaf shutter you may have to add a ND filter to bring the amount of light down just to fit inside the 1/800 second or 1/1000 second top speed of leaf shutter.

    Obviously the S2 will be a real benefit giving you both options. The Mamiya is focal plane but some leaf shutters are coming to market. The Hassy H series is only leaf shutters but there series 200 is focal plane with some leaf lens options I believe. Sinar is leaf also and the Contax is focal plane. Hope that helped, my personal preference is focal plane which every DSLR is today. Matter of what you need more of. No bad decision here but your shooting style
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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    Guys there's an awful lot of misinformation further back in this thread and some of the comments are just plain wrong. I'll try and post a considered response when I get back home (I'm in UK recovering from Photokina before heading back to N.Z tonight), but in the mean time here's a link to what I posted on Luminous landscape regarding the price drops:

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...howtopic=28295

    Cheers
    Nick-T
    Nick I believe many of it is speculations on why the price drops which when someone drops the price 10k in one day folks do have to wonder why and i understand that . Hassy has never really said why in essence so if you have a more clear path why this is than that would be great but i would consider speculation normal when something changes in one day . Let's also remember folks lost 10 grand on paper from buying last month and there resale value just went up in smoke. Not a lot of happy campers on that side of it, obviously we can all understand that POV also. I think we can all speculate on why because that price drop was a big surprise on the heels of some Photokinia announcements from other OEM's also. Obviously as more time goes by more details come to light also.

    I know your in the know more with Hassy than most so your thoughts would be great.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Aaaaah, a little light just went on. In other words, there are situations in which other factors force the shutter speed above flash sync speed. I hadn't thought of that. Hmm.

    So, there are two camps of cameras:

    FPS: Contax 645, Mamiya AFDx, ...
    LS: Rollei 6008, Hasselblad V/H, Rolleiflex/Leaf/Sinar Hy6...

    Did I miss anything important (other than ultra-unaffordable systems like the Sinar modular)?
    What can mitigate the versatility of Focal Plane shutter cameras is when the maker also offers Leaf Shutter lenses in their line-up. (Leaf Shutters are located in the lenses itself.)

    Mamiya is developing some of these which are supposed to be here soon, and the Leica S is supposed to also have a few leaf shutter lenses. Unfortunately, the Contax 645 was discontinued before any were offered from Kyocera/Zeiss.

    My personal issue with that, is that I need all of my lenses to be Leaf Shutter type. I cannot be confined to a few focal lengths in my work.

    The cool thing about the later Hasselblad 200 Focal Plane camera series is that the camera takes all of the Zeiss V lenses ... both focal plane "F/FE" type, and the Leaf Shutter "CF, CFi and CFE" type. The issue with the 200 cameras is lack digital back choices. The only one that fully functions is the Hasselblad CFV series ... which is a crop frame square 16 meg sensor. But if you shoot film, you have full access to a huge range of both type lenses with no crop factor. I have this system, which is one of my favorites of all time.

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    Re: Hasselblad significantly drops prices.

    Well said Marc and for me having one or two leaf lenses would be sufficient for those times i would need the high sync speed. So as you see there are options but also limitations. Hope that helps but going into MF this is the area that one needs to understand first before leaping in with both feet. The Leica as it stands today if it was released lets say offers the most options because most of the lenses are leaf shutters but with a override on the body for focal plane. But that is obviously a ways out. So first have to decide what is most important and also within the budget. If focal plane than Contax and Mamiya are pretty cost effective in the used area. The Hassy series 200 is also but does have back limits. Marc maybe able to give you some advice on a cost effective way in the Hassy door with leaf if that is what you need. resident expert of Hassy here and rather him speak of it than me with limited knowledge of that system. But once you figure out what your needs are than it becomes a little easier.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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