Making the jump.. seeking some advise

[Zerimar]

Hello!

I am a lurker that finally signed up and this is my first post..

Anyways, I am planning on jumping into the MFD camera system. I currently use 35mm digital with some nice lenses (85 f1.2 and some others) and am looking into the Mamiya 645DF with a Leaf back.

My current options due to my budget for this are either the DM22 or DM28, with the kit 80 f2.8 LS lens.

I was then planing on making a few other purchases, including an 80 f1.9, and possibly a 105-210 f4.5. Those would be a bit after the initial purchase.

I shoot a majority of my work in studio with a 2400 ws Profoto pack, so enough light shouldn't be a problem..

The draws of this system over the Hasselblad H4D-31 is the fact that the camera has both a focal plane shutter, and that there are leaf shutter lenses which allow for 1/1600 flash sync. That I find handy for shooting much cheaper lenses than Hasselblad, while also benefiting from the 1/4000 focal plane shutter where as the H system is limited to 1/800.

Given that I am pretty decided on what I want to do, which back would you recommend more and why?

The Mamiya rep I talked to said that I should go for the DM28 as I am pretty much going to only shoot people with the camera (Thus the Leaf for skin tones as well) and that it would make the lenses a bit longer and the resolution would be good for potential advertising work.

I however understand the draw of a larger sensor for several reasons (just like going for full frame over a 1.6x crop DSLR) but am wondering if I really need it for this system..

I obviously would love the DM33 back to solve my problem, but sadly it is out of my reach in terms of funding.

anyways thanks for reading and look forward to any replies! My work for reference: Los Angeles Fashion and Portrait Photographer - Rick Rose

 

[FredBGG]

Go for sensors larger than 44x33mm.

You don't want to upgrade to MF and then shoot crop sensor.

The 22MP leaf or Phase One backs are a good size. 22 MP is plenty.
The 9x9 micron photosites will give you great files.

Start with a nice used 22MP back. You can always rent a higher MP back if you have a client who insists on more.
Best of all you can always sell a nice used back for what you paid for it.....

I agree with your choice of Mamiya for the focal plane shutter option. Lets you use lenses like the Carl Zeiss Hasselblad V 110mm f2.... The Noctilux of MF.

Look at this image by Jim Collum that is a member of this forum

Shot wide open

 

[fotografz]

Welcome to the swirling world of MFD Rick!

Thoughts: think ahead If you can swing it, seriously re-consider the Leaf Aptus-II 33 meg back which is a non-cropped sized sensor like the 22 (33 is the same meg back Jim Collum used for the photo Fred posted ... I know this because I sold it to him). While 22 meg is indeed great, it can produce moiré when shooting people with certain types of clothing ... I know this because I had the Leaf 22 back before the 33 meg one. Also, for whatever reason, the Leaf 33 meg backs are the sweet spot for a lot of legacy Mamiya and adapted Hasselblad F/FE lenses ... I know this because I had all of the Zeiss V FE series lenses like the 50/2.8, 110/2, 150/2.8, and 250/4, and used them with the 33 Leaf back.

Consider looking for a used 33 in Mamiya mount if you can't afford new. That is what Jim Collum did.

Advice: do your homework I'm not an expert on the current Phase One cameras and backs you can use on them, but I'd double check about the available sync speeds with a Leaf back. I'm pretty sure 1/1600th is not available. I believe you need a Phase One IQ back, Schneider CS lenses, and Profoto AIR radio system to achieve that sync speed ... If I recall correctly, the 80/1.8 and zoom you mentioned are focal plane lenses and will allow up to 1/125th sync speed.

Experience: there's more to it than meets the eye I also use Profoto lighting, including D4-2400R Packs. You need the Profoto AIR radio system to achieve the high sync speeds. Pocket Wizards top out at 1/500th for leaf shutter lenses. I now use a Hasselblad H4D/60, and have converted my studio over to Profoto AIR with D1s replacing my Compacts, and AIR receivers on my D4 Packs so I can shoot all my HC lenses at up to 1/800th.

-Marc

 

[Zerimar]

Thanks for the replies so far!

I would be able to buy the DM33 kit with the 645DF body and 80 f2.8 LS lens for around $15700 (student discount!) How much would a used kit cost?

From what the Mamiya rep told me, and as advertised online you can in fact reach the 1/1600 sync speed on the Leaf Aptus II 5 or 6 back (with some 'simple firmware modification' according to the Mamiya rep)

Also, I do know that only the Profoto Air system can Wirelessly sync at 1/1600, but believe that hard sync cables can reach 1/1600. I do not think I will be shooting at that speed unless out doors anyways.

As for the other lenses I am aware of the 1/125. That is what 90% of my pictures taken with my 5d2 are taken at so that is no issue for me.

As for used over new, I would be buying new and hopefully using a credit card to accommodate around half of the cost at 12 months no interest and I could pay it off easily in that time, and paying cash to balance it out. I was looking into buying this at the local Calumet here in Hollywood as I would get some perks from there (being able to bring in anything that's not working and take out a rental for free while they fix it, borrow certain pieces of equipment for free, etc)

For a new system I feel that getting the new 645DF body with the 80 f2.8 LS with either the Aptus II 22 or 28 would be a nice deal for $10,222 + tax.. the 1 year warranty is also nice to have..

I don't want a crop sensor, but the native ISO and moiré issues of the 22 back seem to make me lean towards the 28 (higher native ISO as I will mostly use 100-200)

I am currently in college and swinging the extra $5500 + tax for the DM33 would be hard, if not near impossible anytime in the near future. I would have to save up for several months to be able to accomplish that. If it really is that much worth it (over spending $5500 possibly on a profoto D4 2400 pack which is that much with student discount) then I suppose I can hold out and wait until I can afford the extra money.

 

[FredBGG]

Welcome to the swirling world of MFD Rick!

...... seriously re-consider the Leaf Aptus-II 33 meg back which is a non-cropped sized sensor like the 22 (33 is the same meg back Jim Collum used for the photo Fred posted ... I know this because I sold it to him). While 22 meg is indeed great, it can produce moiré when shooting people with certain types of clothing ...


... If I recall correctly, the 80/1.8 and zoom you mentioned are focal plane lenses and will allow up to 1/125th sync speed.

-Marc

Moire is an issue with all bayer sensors that don't have an anti alias filter on the sensor. IF the 22 shows moire that 33 will to, maybe just a little less.
Even with higher MP counts Moire is an issue. IT can be handled in post quite well.

The 80mm 1.9 is an older Mamiya lens and requires a focal plane shutter so sync is 1/125.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Welcome to the swirling world of MFD Rick!

Thoughts: think ahead If you can swing it, seriously re-consider the Leaf Aptus-II 33 meg back which is a non-cropped sized sensor like the 22 (33 is the same meg back Jim Collum used for the photo Fred posted ... I know this because I sold it to him). While 22 meg is indeed great, it can produce moiré when shooting people with certain types of clothing ... I know this because I had the Leaf 22 back before the 33 meg one. Also, for whatever reason, the Leaf 33 meg backs are the sweet spot for a lot of legacy Mamiya and adapted Hasselblad F/FE lenses ... I know this because I had all of the Zeiss V FE series lenses like the 50/2.8, 110/2, 150/2.8, and 250/4, and used them with the 33 Leaf back.

Consider looking for a used 33 in Mamiya mount if you can't afford new. That is what Jim Collum did.

Advice: do your homework I'm not an expert on the current Phase One cameras and backs you can use on them, but I'd double check about the available sync speeds with a Leaf back. I'm pretty sure 1/1600th is not available. I believe you need a Phase One IQ back, Schneider CS lenses, and Profoto AIR radio system to achieve that sync speed ... If I recall correctly, the 80/1.8 and zoom you mentioned are focal plane lenses and will allow up to 1/125th sync speed.

Experience: there's more to it than meets the eye I also use Profoto lighting, including D4-2400R Packs. You need the Profoto AIR radio system to achieve the high sync speeds. Pocket Wizards top out at 1/500th for leaf shutter lenses. I now use a Hasselblad H4D/60, and have converted my studio over to Profoto AIR with D1s replacing my Compacts, and AIR receivers on my D4 Packs so I can shoot all my HC lenses at up to 1/800th.

-Marc

Agree my friend the 22 mpx backs are great but Moire will wring its ugly head and for people not really a recommended back. For Phase it starts at the new Dalsa sensors at 6 micron for the high speed flash sync and leaf lenses. Starting at P40 plus as the lowest entry point for the 1/1600 sync speeds. The P30 plus another older great back and very nice for people fashion type work will sync at 1/800 th with a DF body which is a must here to work with the LS lenses. So bottom line you first must have a DF for the sync speeds to match the LS lenses to start with than the backs really starting at the P40 which used is around 10k and highly recommended from me who shot it for almost 2 years until I went FF with really the same sensor. Love this sensor. Good rule of thumb newer stuff in Phase will do the tricks. Another good rule of thumb the smaller the microns the less Moire.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I also use The Profoto Air system in the D1 mono lights and the Acute 600 battery system. Very tricky here you need very fast duration times to match the 1/1600 sync.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Btw you can get a used P40 plus with DF and 80 LS for less than 15k through our sponsored dealers and still use your credit card in any amount you want or they also sell Leaf backs as well. Contact our dealers here, you want dealer support.

 

[fotografz]

I also use The Profoto Air system in the D1 mono lights and the Acute 600 battery system. Very tricky here you need very fast duration times to match the 1/1600 sync.

+1 ... gotta watch the pack or mono-head durations here.

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

Thanks for the replies so far!

I would be able to buy the DM33 kit with the 645DF body and 80 f2.8 LS lens for around $15700 (student discount!) How much would a used kit cost?

From what the Mamiya rep told me, and as advertised online you can in fact reach the 1/1600 sync speed on the Leaf Aptus II 5 or 6 back (with some 'simple firmware modification' according to the Mamiya rep)

Also, I do know that only the Profoto Air system can Wirelessly sync at 1/1600, but believe that hard sync cables can reach 1/1600. I do not think I will be shooting at that speed unless out doors anyways.

As for the other lenses I am aware of the 1/125. That is what 90% of my pictures taken with my 5d2 are taken at so that is no issue for me.

As for used over new, I would be buying new and hopefully using a credit card to accommodate around half of the cost at 12 months no interest and I could pay it off easily in that time, and paying cash to balance it out. I was looking into buying this at the local Calumet here in Hollywood as I would get some perks from there (being able to bring in anything that's not working and take out a rental for free while they fix it, borrow certain pieces of equipment for free, etc)

For a new system I feel that getting the new 645DF body with the 80 f2.8 LS with either the Aptus II 22 or 28 would be a nice deal for $10,222 + tax.. the 1 year warranty is also nice to have..

I don't want a crop sensor, but the native ISO and moiré issues of the 22 back seem to make me lean towards the 28 (higher native ISO as I will mostly use 100-200)

I am currently in college and swinging the extra $5500 + tax for the DM33 would be hard, if not near impossible anytime in the near future. I would have to save up for several months to be able to accomplish that. If it really is that much worth it (over spending $5500 possibly on a profoto D4 2400 pack which is that much with student discount) then I suppose I can hold out and wait until I can afford the extra money.

That all may be right for all I know ... Guy knows much more than I do about these products. However, double check the sync speeds with what-ever camera/back/lens combo you go for. Just sayin'

Also, look into Pay Pal's "Bill Me Later" which is interest free up to 6 months. Better than the usurious credit card interest rates.

 

[dougpeterson]

That all may be right for all I know ... Guy knows much more than I do about these products. However, double check the sync speeds with what-ever camera/back/lens combo you go for. Just sayin'

Consider it double checked: Current Mamiya/Leaf (including the 22, 28, and 33mp models mentioned in the thread) all work at 1/1600th with a DF body and LS lens.

Older Leafs (e.g. Aptus 75) and older/Kodak Phase backs (notably P30+ and p45+) are limited to 1/800th.

Moire is an issue with all bayer sensors that don't have an anti alias filter on the sensor. IF the 22 shows moire that 33 will to, maybe just a little less.
Even with higher MP counts Moire is an issue. IT can be handled in post quite well.

The 80mm 1.9 is an older Mamiya lens and requires a focal plane shutter so sync is 1/125.

My suggestion is the 33mp back (variously called the DM33 and the Aptus II 7 at various points). It fills a real sweet spot when it comes to large-sensor, high resolution, speed, and cost.

Moire is an issue with all bayer sensors that don't have an anti alias filter on the sensor. IF the 22 shows moire that 33 will to, maybe just a little less.
Even with higher MP counts Moire is an issue. IT can be handled in post quite well.

Moire can actually occur on any sensor, including those with a strong AA filter - the AA filter just dramatically reduces it's occurrence (along with softening every image it captures).

I strongly disagree with "just a little less" in your statement. A 33mp sensor will moire far less frequently than a 22mp sensor. If moire is a concern (e.g. shooting people at f/5.6-f/11) then a 33mp sensor is a huge advantage over a 22mp sensor.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[Guy Mancuso]

Doug thanks for the update on the Leaf backs . Not having shot the leaf system it's hard for me to remember it all on those products as well as Hassy stuff. Hell I can only buy so much stuff. LOL

 

[etrump]

Nice work Rick. Everything is pretty much covered already. Not to muddy the water but:

While crop sensor is not the ultimate answer it does make a great entry point and every shot is within the sweet spot of the glass.

It doesn't look like you need wide angle from your site and I think you would do fine with the 80mm in your portrait work. Many photographers prefer a slightly longer perspective in their portraits.

I know, at least with P1 backs, you can always upgrade later and get a good percentage of your investment in the back credited to your new purchase.

The improved IQ with either solution is going to be amazing.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

You are in college and need to put it on a credit-card. That says to me stick with what you have and rent if you need MFD. If you were already running a full time studio, it would be one thing, but for part time it seems to me you would be way better off sticking with your current gear and then renting a digital back (which could be any level or price point, always up to date etc) for the times when it is truly necessary.

 

[kinok1]

You are in college and need to put it on a credit-card. That says to me stick with what you have and rent if you need MFD. If you were already running a full time studio, it would be one thing, but for part time it seems to me you would be way better off sticking with your current gear and then renting a digital back (which could be any level or price point, always up to date etc) for the times when it is truly necessary.

+1

 

[Zerimar]

Thanks for the compliment Ed!

That is one of the main points for me, I shoot almost exclusively portraits/beauty/fashion and the moire issues of the 22 would be a nightmare for me. I am attracted to the larger sensor for obvious reasons, but it seems the main reason for people suggesting it is due to it's size, where as the crop sensor would work just as well for me, using the 'sweet spot' center of the lens.

Considering that everyone has been only suggesting the 22mp 1.1x crop back, or spending a lot more for the 33mp one.. I wonder if it would be worth it to get the $5600 AFD645 with 80 f2.8 and the Aptus I 22mp.. that would be half the cost of a new kit at the sacrifice of the leaf shutter lens and the newer body and back.. does anyone here think it's worth it?

I also typed out another reply earlier but it looks like it didn't go through or hasn't been approved.. not sure how this site works exactly.

 

[Zerimar]

You are in college and need to put it on a credit-card. That says to me stick with what you have and rent if you need MFD. If you were already running a full time studio, it would be one thing, but for part time it seems to me you would be way better off sticking with your current gear and then renting a digital back (which could be any level or price point, always up to date etc) for the times when it is truly necessary.

I may be a college student but as of now I could afford to make this investment and pay it off fully within 6 months. I work for Estee Lauder and Neiman Marcus and am booked for enough days this spring season with them alone to pay for the camera.. on top of other random work that I receive. As of now my monthly expenses are minimal and I have enough income from my photography work to make such a purchase lucrative.

I figured if anything, I might as well buy this camera while I can receive a student discount, decent income from photography, and essentially no expenses.

 

[Don Libby]

Go for sensors larger than 44x33mm.

You don't want to upgrade to MF and then shoot crop sensor.

The 22MP leaf or Phase One backs are a good size. 22 MP is plenty.
The 9x9 micron photosites will give you great files.

Start with a nice used 22MP back. You can always rent a higher MP back if you have a client who insists on more.
Best of all you can always sell a nice used back for what you paid for it.....

I agree with your choice of Mamiya for the focal plane shutter option. Lets you use lenses like the Carl Zeiss Hasselblad V 110mm f2.... The Noctilux of MF.

Look at this image by Jim Collum that is a member of this forum


Shot wide open

Fred, I've been following some of your threads as you give advice on medium format gear and it's got me mildly curious as to what gear you own and use the most. It seems you have vast experience in digital medium format as you offer a plethora of advice.

Don

 

[Mike Dote]

Thanks for the compliment Ed!

That is one of the main points for me, I shoot almost exclusively portraits/beauty/fashion and the moire issues of the 22 would be a nightmare for me. I am attracted to the larger sensor for obvious reasons, but it seems the main reason for people suggesting it is due to it's size, where as the crop sensor would work just as well for me, using the 'sweet spot' center of the lens.

Considering that everyone has been only suggesting the 22mp 1.1x crop back, or spending a lot more for the 33mp one.. I wonder if it would be worth it to get the $5600 AFD645 with 80 f2.8 and the Aptus I 22mp.. that would be half the cost of a new kit at the sacrifice of the leaf shutter lens and the newer body and back.. does anyone here think it's worth it?

I also typed out another reply earlier but it looks like it didn't go through or hasn't been approved.. not sure how this site works exactly.

Rick,
I shoot primarily beauty and portraits and I've found the Aptus I Kit to be very good and also much more affordable than the alternatives as well as a significant upgrade to the 5d2. If you can save yourself ~10k now, I would certainly do so. You can always upgrade later on, once you're more comfortable with the system.

 

[MarkoRepse]

Oh please, the moire issues of the 22mp backs are not that bad. Yes you do get moire, but its not as if it dominates every frame. And when it does occur, the localized adjustments in C1 do an excellent job of getting rid of it. It is a very rare image you cannot fix. And you can always shoot f18 or so, where it disappears from diffraction. The used kit should be wonderful. Spending (a lot) more for the 33mp back would be a serious waste of money in my opinion. The resolution increase is marginal. The only advantages I can find (having owned an aptus22 and tested the II-7) are better high iso performance and indeed more resistance to moire. And don't rule out the smaller sensors. Bigger is better for shallower DOF, but if you stop down it doesn't matter. You get used to the sensor size in either case. In short, I suggest getting the cheapest kit you can find. It'll be great!