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Thread: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    We think of the sensor as something divorced from the rest of the system (and ignore light actually has a wavelength). Given a specific aperture, diffraction will impact a smaller sensor more than a larger one. Larger sensors don't need to work at such high frequencies and so can take better advantage of optics optimized for contrast. And given the same angle of view with a given aperture, the larger format will also have greater resolution (but less DoF) than a smaller sensor because of a larger entrance pupil.

    We like to think of these arguments on the terms of everything being equal. The problem is everything is different. We can try to push and shove some of these criteria around to try to make them equal, but we are just creating greater difference with other factors. Ultimately, it does not matter about the individual technical specifications, but the symphony for factors that goes into the image we perceive.

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    What did you pay for your watch? You can buy a working watch for 5$, so why pay more?
    You can buy a shirt on ebay for 1$, so why buy a shirt for 50$?

    If our life was only determined by economic based decisions it would be sooo boaring.
    If everybody was happy with just 95% there would be much less innovations.

    Nothing against the D800 and maybe I will even buy one one day (maybe I might prefer a D4 for my intended use) but what is the sense to compare it to an S2?
    How much one wants to pay for a little more quality is a totally personal decission. And if I couldnt afford the S2 I know I would be totally happy with a D800 as well, I would be happy with the D700 too by the way.

    The best ROI for a hobby photographer would be to give up the hobby and sell all his gear.
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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    What did you pay for your watch? You can buy a working watch for 5$, so why pay more?
    You can buy a shirt on ebay for 1$, so why buy a shirt for 50$?

    If our life was only determined by economic based decisions it would be sooo boaring.
    If everybody was happy with just 95% there would be much less innovations.

    Nothing against the D800 and maybe I will even buy one one day (maybe I might prefer a D4 for my intended use) but what is the sense to compare it to an S2?
    How much one wants to pay for a little more quality is a totally personal decission. And if I couldnt afford the S2 I know I would be totally happy with a D800 as well, I would be happy with the D700 too by the way.

    The best ROI for a hobby photographer would be to give up the hobby and sell all his gear.
    You make excellent points. If people only purchased things based on economic needs, why would elitist brands and "luxury" items exist? Why would any of us own more than a 5D? Or a Rebel T3i, for that matter? Simply put, the economic model of "need" is an incomplete assessment of the situation. It fails to factor in desire -- the human side of the equation, and in some cases, not saying this applies to anyone in the MF world -- conspicuous consumption.

    Regardless of the economic aspects, he camera is not the most important aspect of the puzzle to me, it's just a piece. The prints, at the end of the day, mean the most in my opinion. This is why I purchased a P65+, then later an Aptus-II 12. Printing large, and clearly is my goal.

    I'll likely pick up a D800E when it's released and use my TS canon lenses on it via adapters. I've long been considering picking up a P45+ to complement my Aptus-II 12, but they're both rare and fairly expensive, still. If this sensor has even remotely decent long-exposure capabilities, I'm sold. Will I feel less "professional," or somehow "embarrassed" using a DSLR? Not at all. It's a tool; a means to an end.

    I'm interested in color handling, and tonal transitions, gradients. Sharpness/resolution is really only part of the equation, naturally. I'm specifically interested to see if it can match/approach the dynamic range of MF. With 14-bit files, I am inclined to believe that the tonal variations will be much more noticeable than the contemporary offerings from Leaf/Hass/Phase, and subtle tones will suffer due to this. I went from shooting Canon 5Ds and 1Ds to shooting the P65+, and the Aptus-II 12, and the gradient/tonal handling is likely what impressed me most, as well as the useful dynamic range.

    There are natural FoV/DoF concerns inherent to different formats. It remains to be seen just how much of a role diffraction will play into this sensor's performance, as well. I do speculate quality loss due to diffraction will onset fairly quickly, however, but with the use of TS lenses, it should be possible to see near the real resolution.

    At the end of the day, though, the real issue in my eyes is the prints. I'm actually a little surprised this hasn't been mentioned before. . . this is the end-result, right? If it can create the same end result, I see no reason not to buy it. If, however, I see the prints being noticeably inferior, well, at least it's reasonably inexpensive.
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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Gabe, as far as I know you can only use Nikon lenses on Canon bodies via adapters not the other way around ... be aware of that if you want to use your TSEs!

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Regarding lenses, I wouldn't overlook the nikon 14-24. It's a zoom so it cant be a good as a prime zeiss for example? Not really true, it's ridiculously good. Try it and see, it was made for a D800e
    Last edited by Aaron; 8th February 2012 at 15:34. Reason: can't spell

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by coulombic View Post

    At the end of the day, though, the real issue in my eyes is the prints. I'm actually a little surprised this hasn't been mentioned before. . . this is the end-result, right? If it can create the same end result, I see no reason not to buy it. If, however, I see the prints being noticeably inferior, well, at least it's reasonably inexpensive.
    Well said! For those of us who print, this is the decisive point. I'm fortunate enough to have a Phase system for landscapes and "detail" work, a Sony system for wildlife and M system for "walk around". But for the ultimate print quality, there is no discussion.

    It's just a question of the right tool for the job. I have a high regard for Nikon, though I've never owned one, but if it can give me a 30 by 40 inch print of IQ180 quality, then sure, I'll switch.

    But I doubt that that will be the case...

    Bill

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    I sometimes browse through the "fun with...." threads, for example the LF, the Leica M, the MF, the Pentax and the Nikon as well as the m4/3.
    My feeling: Even in websized images one can often see a difference (maybe this difference could be compensated by a certain post processing).
    Same if I see how many of my own images I have rated good/very good the percentage of the S2 shors is higher than that of the M9 is higher than that of my Nikon shots, even though I have some Nikon shots which are of great IQ as well.

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by coulombic View Post
    ......

    Regardless of the economic aspects, he camera is not the most important aspect of the puzzle to me, it's just a piece. The prints, at the end of the day, mean the most in my opinion. This is why I purchased a P65+, then later an Aptus-II 12. Printing large, and clearly is my goal.

    .......


    There are natural FoV/DoF concerns inherent to different formats. It remains to be seen just how much of a role diffraction will play into this sensor's performance, as well. I do speculate quality loss due to diffraction will onset fairly quickly, however, but with the use of TS lenses, it should be possible to see near the real resolution.

    .....At the end of the day, though, the real issue in my eyes is the prints. I'm actually a little surprised this hasn't been mentioned before. . . this is the end-result, right? If it can create the same end result, I see no reason not to buy it. If, however, I see the prints being noticeably inferior, well, at least it's reasonably inexpensive.

    I Agree with this view completely. For this reason I urge people who do take their photography seriously to get the best file they can - with the best tool that they can afford - because one thing is for certain....technology means that the quality of prints and display options will only improve over time...however this means that in order to maximise the potential of the photos one makes today - for the long term...use the best tool that produces the best archival file one can afford for the subject matter..

    I have some photos I am particularly proud of - which were shot with the Canon 10D - my first digital camera...its 6 megapixels are today quite limiting in terms of the size of print I can get ..as well as teh quality of file one gets from modern cameras...

    I say - remember that you are shooting for long term possibility and potential as well as today..

    Pete

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Another D800 comparison thread to re-hash everything over, and over and over based on pure speculation ... but I guess no news, and no controversy is boring ... even if you learn absolutely nothing from it.

    However, personally I have learned from past errors in judgement. When the FF 24 meg Nikon D3X came out and touted as the "studio" Nikon, I stupidly bought the hype again, (just like I fell for the Canon 1DsMK-II hype with the "s" standing for "Studio"). I got the D3X, along with every nano coated optic available then ... including the amazing 14-24 zoom.

    Imagine my disappointment when my buddy's much less expensive Contax 645 and 22 meg Phase One back produced better files and prints (damned those fat pixels!). In addition, the NEF RAW files were the hardest to process of any I had ever encountered to date ... and trust me I know how to post process.

    It was no match in any measure of IQ against my Leaf Aptus7s 33 meg back with it's wonderful Dalsa skin rendering.

    For a frame of reference, the S2 exhibits higher over-all IQ than all the above MFD cameras (partly because of those incomparably delicious S lenses)

    I've said this on other D800 threads ... this camera will require a change in shooting technique to realize the extra resolution. People will have to adopt MFD techniques to see it in a final print. Plus, this camera is not a higher ISO machine like the D4 ... so two key features that separate 35mm DSLRs from other formats are compromised ... spontaneity and low ambient light shooting ... all in the cause of "almost as good as" the low end of MFD ... which is exactly the lesson I learned with the D3X and Leaf Aptus7s comparisons.

    Nothing against this fine camera from Nikon ... it'll have a place in many a tool box. But delusional wishes and dreams won't make it a MFD.

    -Marc
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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Maybe it is better to evaluate the merits of the D800 as a DSLR-like MFDB rather than as a MFDB-like DSLR?

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    Maybe it is better to evaluate the merits of the D800 as a DSLR-like MFDB rather than as a MFDB-like DSLR?
    Hope you have your flameproof suit on.

    But seriously, the basic problem with your statement is that the D800 is still physically "only" 24x36mm. That's analogous to saying in the film days that 135 was comparable to 645/6x6/6x7 because we could use the same film in different formats. MP's are not the only considerations format size still matters (at least to me).

    I'll let all the tech heads debate signal/noise, dynamic range, lenses etc. but every format has a different look as far as I'm concerned.
    Last edited by cng; 9th February 2012 at 05:17.

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by cng View Post
    Hope you have your flameproof suit on. :too cool:


    ... but every format has a different look as far as I'm concerned.
    YES!!!... and the sample images also of D800E do look very DSLR... why should they not??? It is a DSLR and with a sensor that no matter what pixels is designed for general use and a broad ISO range...

    That does not mean bad by any means, since it means better than any DSLR to date assumably, which obvious is better than 4/3, P&S and camera phones, but ... why should it be a surprise it does not equal image quality of medium format such as even 20MP Leaf back in image quality at low ISO, albeit pixel count differ... ??? :sleep006:

    I am tired of these threads

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    In the S2's favour, apart from points already made, it is the first body of a series and certainly has room to grow.

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    The D800E will match the S2 in resolution but I would be surprised if it comes close to it in terms of clarity and depth of feel. The dynamic range will be close in terms of specifications but in the mid-range will respond more like a D3x than an MF sensor. To my eye a flatter look which is tough to correct in post.

    It WILL make a great backup to my MF system and at $3k very affordable. It is what it is and will probably excel at things MF is not good for such as long exposure and fast paced work where VR makes a huge difference.

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ...
    Imagine my disappointment when my buddy's much less expensive Contax 645 and 22 meg Phase One back produced better files and prints (damned those fat pixels!). In addition, the NEF RAW files were the hardest to process of any I had ever encountered to date ... and trust me I know how to post process.
    ....
    To my taste I have found that those "old" fat pixel backs look most pleasing and I often wondered why people gave them up so quickly. I would happily pick up a 6x7 camera that has a FF 9 micron chip. Maybe Phaseone should think in that direction too, not only to overpopulate an already too small 645 sized chip with more and more pixels.

    With regards to the D800: It will be a winner for sure in sales numbers.
    Taken all the good stuff that is in it at a very attractive price point one has to like this piece of technology.

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    It's not just you. I just downloaded all the D800 sample images from the Nikon website. Based on what I see here, these don't look anything like what I get with my S2. They have the look of a D300 with a lot more pixels. Missing is the per-pixel sharpness, microcontrast and texture. In fact, nothing in these images is actually sharp. I'll reserve final judgement until a controlled test can be done and we're not just looking at JPGs from CaptureNX.

    David
    exaclty, jpgs give very little information and nikon has a long history in publishing crap files of new cameras. i have seen NEFs (nikon d800E with nikon 24mm f1.4) and they give my S2 files a real run for the money. tonality in the S2 files is still better but acuity is very similar. color rendering is a matter of taste anyway and (mostly) can be fixed in pp.
    certainly the S2 lenses beat the nikons but it will take leica another 10 years to set up a reasonably complete system and who knows how long to get up to date as far as camera electronics is concerned.
    i shall be dumping the S2 very soon and use the nikon d800E or, if real quality is desired, the IQ180 on my alpa system.
    same for M, time for me to de-leicanize. will keep my MP though....
    peter

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Gotta admit, those official RAW samples are pretty f-ing amazing. Especially the one shot with the 35mm lens. Matches up perfectly with the tests I did with the S2 when I had one on loan a year or so ago. An awesome camera, that's for sure. If only money grew on trees, then I'd buy an S2 AND D800E and let you know which one wins the shootout!

    Quote Originally Posted by henrylim80 View Post
    you guys must be joking right?
    Take a look at S2's raw files:

    LEICA Camera AG - S2 RAW

    and maybe some photos from its users:

    Church of the Good Sheperd

    or:

    Omo valley - ethiopia

    D800E can match that how?

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by m21apsh View Post
    it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Nikon only cost 1/10 price 36MP vs 37.5MP

    Even more fun, Leica R vs Leica S lens
    if use lens adapter to use Leica R lens on D800 vs Leica S2
    Interesting? Sounds super boring to me.

    But, hey, I like an "all-in-good-fun" dog fight from time-to-time.

    There's always some delusional little doggy that thinks it can take on the big dog ...

    We've nick-named the little Chihuaua/mix "Nikon" ...

    BTW, these were shot with a S2 and 180mm hand-held without a slew of AF points or VR for those that think it has to be glued to a tripod or is too slow to get the shots

    -Marc

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Interesting? Sounds super boring to me.

    But, hey, I like an "all-in-good-fun" dog fight from time-to-time.

    There's always some delusional little doggy that thinks it can take on the big dog ...

    We've nick-named the little Chihuaua/mix "Nikon" ...

    -Marc
    +1 Marc. And a good tongue-in-cheek chuckle...

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    I have printed exhibitions from people using the D7000, and I was very impressed by the image quality. It is an exceptionally good DSLR! I am sure the D800 will be even more excellent if you pair it with the right lenses. That said, I also use an S2 and have printed large (1m+) prints from it. The S2 is so far beyond any camera I have ever used or printed from that it is quite staggering. I say this as a custom printer who makes prints from many different cameras on a daily basis. Everyone knows the lenses in the S2 are spectacularly good, but it is not just that -- having the whole system built from the ground up to accommodate 40mp+ is a tremendous advantage. The precision needed to extract the most out of this much resolution is extremely high, in everything from the body frame, focusing screen, mounting hardware, AF sensors and motors... Based on my experience with Nikon's modern zooms and the D3, frankly I think it is beyond the capability of Nikon's current lenses and manufacturing tolerance. We'll see. This is not to say you won't get very good files, but a real 36 MP on most shots? I sincerely doubt it. Don't even think of mounting anything on it other than Nikon's absolute cream of the crop, as even those are going to be a stretch.

    But, I will be considered biased since I am an S2 owner. Suffice to say, I really don't care! The S2 is so good that other (digital) cameras don't even really register on my radar anymore.
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Mitchell View Post
    In the S2's favour, apart from points already made, it is the first body of a series and certainly has room to grow.
    grow....hmmmm. in terms of euros over image quality it should not grow to much any more. and since leica's development times act on cosmological time scales the next S3 (?) body might come out after the next five economic crisis have already subsided.
    but then iso 400 will certainly be fully useable...-----)))
    peter

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    grow....hmmmm. in terms of euros over image quality it should not grow to much any more. and since leica's development times act on cosmological time scales the next S3 (?) body might come out after the next five economic crisis have already subsided.
    but then iso 400 will certainly be fully useable...-----)))
    peter
    Hi Peter-did you have problems usig ISO400?

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    ... i shall be dumping the S2 very soon ....
    My trash can's as good as yours
    Doug Herr http://www.wildlightphoto.com
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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    i shall be dumping the S2 very soon and use the nikon d800E or, if real quality is desired, the IQ180 on my alpa system.
    same for M, time for me to de-leicanize. will keep my MP though....
    peter
    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    My trash can's as good as yours
    Okay Doug - you can have Peter's S stuff - Peter - please can you dump your M stuff in my bin

    P.S. I hope you and yours are all well - long time no speak - your black 50 'lux is still my most used lens.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Perhaps the comparison should be the S2 vs the Pentax 645D, There both MFD, and the price difference is huge and their both weather sealed.

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Hi Peter-did you have problems usig ISO400?
    as a matter of fact i really dislike the noise pattern. same with M9. looks like D3s at iso25600.
    peter

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Okay Doug - you can have Peter's S stuff - Peter - please can you dump your M stuff in my bin

    P.S. I hope you and yours are all well - long time no speak - your black 50 'lux is still my most used lens.





    all the best
    jono, all ok thanks. good to hear you still like the 50mm LUX!
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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    I have printed exhibitions from people using the D7000, and I was very impressed by the image quality. It is an exceptionally good DSLR! I am sure the D800 will be even more excellent if you pair it with the right lenses. That said, I also use an S2 and have printed large (1m+) prints from it. The S2 is so far beyond any camera I have ever used or printed from that it is quite staggering. I say this as a custom printer who makes prints from many different cameras on a daily basis. Everyone knows the lenses in the S2 are spectacularly good, but it is not just that -- having the whole system built from the ground up to accommodate 40mp+ is a tremendous advantage. The precision needed to extract the most out of this much resolution is extremely high, in everything from the body frame, focusing screen, mounting hardware, AF sensors and motors... Based on my experience with Nikon's modern zooms and the D3, frankly I think it is beyond the capability of Nikon's current lenses and manufacturing tolerance. We'll see. This is not to say you won't get very good files, but a real 36 MP on most shots? I sincerely doubt it. Don't even think of mounting anything on it other than Nikon's absolute cream of the crop, as even those are going to be a stretch.

    But, I will be considered biased since I am an S2 owner. Suffice to say, I really don't care! The S2 is so good that other (digital) cameras don't even really register on my radar anymore.
    Yep.

    The S2 was designed from the ground-up, and is the only MF system that isn't playing catch-up with modern high res sensors ... in fact the sensor has plenty of room to grow into the lenses. You can bolt on legacy lenses for certain creative characteristics if desired, but you aren't forced to deal with re-worked film era optics for more demanding applications. I'd say the S2 lenses have more to do with high resolution impression in final prints than the meg count does ... and prints/reproduction is what counts when we are talking this level of performance.

    This was for a series of posters to be printed 30" X 40" which the S2 does without breaking sweat ... check the "Hairy Knuckle" crop (even though a sub 1 meg web pic doesn't do it justice). For crying out loud, you could take this guy's finger prints from this shot

    -Marc
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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    It's understandable that the S2 owners are going be biased...they have to What's the big deal, I mean we're comparing a 35mm beta version D800 using a zoom lens, with an S2. Why the diatribe about its performance? Lenses are obviously the weak link, and yes, the Leica's are legendary, but also because of cost! When the final production D800e is available using Nikon's best prime with prints at standard sizes, then people can compare, perhaps this discussion is premature.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 11th February 2012 at 20:14.

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    We've nick-named the little Chihuaua/mix "Nikon" ...

    BTW, these were shot with a S2 and 180mm hand-held without a slew of AF points or VR for those that think it has to be glued to a tripod or is too slow to get the shots

    -Marc
    Very cute, indeed!
    So, professional photographers can read the minds of cameras?
    I wonder what all the point and shoots would be thinking then, watching this dog fight.
    Maybe they would attack in hordes. lol

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    Take a look at the samples on the official nikon page. Is it just me? I am a little underwhelmed regarding image quality at display ...

    Not only you.

    I took a look at them. Downloaded them and made a couple of prints on the Canon ipf8000.

    I also took a look at the histograms in some advanced color grading software.

    I did not like what I saw. The did not look as good as D3x. Blacks and shadow detail not as good.
    Skin tones are not particularly nice either.

    The Canon 1D X on the other hand looks like a significant improvement for Canon. I think they really hit the sweet spot with the gap-less 18 MP sensor.
    Black look far better.

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    My trash can's as good as yours
    Yes, but size matters...

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    It's understandable that the S2 owners are going be biased...they have to What's the big deal, I mean we're comparing a 35mm beta version D800 using a zoom lens, with an S2. Why the diatribe about its performance? Lenses are obviously the weak link, and yes, the Leica's are legendary, but also because of cost! When the final production D800e is available using Nikon's best prime with prints at standard sizes, then people can compare, perhaps this discussion is premature.
    We'll the OP begged the question, so a few S2 owners answered it. So, what? I see nothing that constitutes a bitter verbal attack or sharp denunciation against anything here ... (unless someone took umbrage to my nick-naming the feisty, but doomed little Chihuahua "Nikon" ) Maybe anyone challenging a Napoleonic delusion, will be tagged as being biased and defensive I suppose.

    Fact is, for some, this D800 is terrific news with-in the world of 35mm DSLRs. Had it been priced at $4,000. or even $5,000. it would still be terrific news ... so, the price no doubt is a big part of the appeal as it opens up the world of higher resolution capture to a lot more people than ever before. Basically, I see it as the democratization of higher resolution capture. Who can argue with that?

    The notion that Leica buyers somehow feel compelled to comparatively justify costs is a red haring, defensive position that is as old as the Leica brand itself. One need not justify anything they enjoy, use and can afford.

    -Marc

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Karma View Post
    Very cute, indeed!
    So, professional photographers can read the minds of cameras?
    I wonder what all the point and shoots would be thinking then, watching this dog fight.
    Maybe they would attack in hordes. lol

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    as a matter of fact i really dislike the noise pattern. same with M9. looks like D3s at iso25600.
    peter
    Sorry, either my eyes must be defective or the S2 you have used must have been defective.
    As long as one stays at ISO 640 and lower I dont see anything to dislike regarding noise. What did you photograph-maybe its wasnt noise pattern but micro detail of the surface you photographed which you saw in the Leica image but not in the D3s image at 25600 ISO.
    PS: I dont doubt the D3s is a much better high ISO machine

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Sorry, either my eyes must be defective or the S2 you have used must have been defective.
    As long as one stays at ISO 640 and lower I dont see anything to dislike regarding noise. What did you photograph-maybe its wasnt noise pattern but micro detail of the surface you photographed which you saw in the Leica image but not in the D3s image at 25600 ISO.
    PS: I dont doubt the D3s is a much better high ISO machine
    S2 (and as a matter of fact M9) files at 400iso and above have a very unpleasant color speckle noise pattern. this can certainly be eliminated in pp but when i open the files at 100% i get shocked in the first place. most of this does not show up in small scale prints or on webpages but since we live in the 100% magnification world...
    if you doubt that the D3s is a better high iso machine, then i run out of arguments.
    peter

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    as a matter of fact i really dislike the noise pattern. same with M9. looks like D3s at iso25600.
    peter
    Wow! I gotta check out the D3s @ ISO 25,600 if it is as good as the S2 or M9 at 400 or 640. !!!!!!!!!

    Actually, I don't. I can spot a credibility eroding exaggeration from a mile away. Just more internet "noise".

    Here are a couple of working wedding shots with the S2 ... the "Bridge Kiss" was shot at ISO 320 and pushed a stop in Post to open up the shadows a bit ... crop shows noise levels, or I should say lack of noise levels. The "Pear Picking" shot was done at 640, and crop still shows lack of noise. Of 370 shots done at this wedding 299 were @ ISO 640, so I could keep the shutter speeds up for spontaneous work, as well as these more structured shots. Lots of 17X22 prints were ordered from this wedding ($$$$$$)

    Talk's cheap, exaggerations even cheaper ... let the pics do the talking.

    -Marc

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Wow! I gotta check out the D3s @ ISO 25,600 if it is as good as the S2 or M9 at 400 or 640. !!!!!!!!!

    Actually, I don't. I can spot a credibility eroding exaggeration from a mile away. Just more internet "noise".

    Here are a couple of working wedding shots with the S2 ... the "Bridge Kiss" was shot at ISO 320 and pushed a stop in Post to open up the shadows a bit ... crop shows noise levels, or I should say lack of noise levels. The "Pear Picking" shot was done at 640, and crop still shows lack of noise. Of 370 shots done at this wedding 299 were @ ISO 640, so I could keep the shutter speeds up for spontaneous work, as well as these more structured shots. Lots of 17X22 prints were ordered from this wedding ($$$$$$)

    Talk's cheap, exaggerations even cheaper ... let the pics do the talking.

    -Marc
    you show pics of an extremely well lit scene, so what is the issue here?
    heard of DxO sensor tests? just check M9 and D3s. or is this too scientific?
    not real world enough---)))?
    i can already guess what will be the next line of arguments: the S2 autofocus beats the D3s autofocus, right?
    peter

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Before this descends any further, just a few short remarks:

    Peter -- Tom said he DOESN'T doubt that the D3s is a better high ISO machine, not that he did doubt.

    As for the speckled color noise pattern, I know what you are referring to, and it is present in both the M9 and S2. It is however, very easily taken care of with even the smallest amount of color noise reduction in lightroom or whatever other RAW converter you use. I think part of the issue here is the difference between CCDs and CMOS sensors. CMOS does a lot of image processing on the chip, and the "RAW" output of a DSLR has had more noise reduction and tweaking in the camera than most CCD cameras. This is where EXPEED and Digic 5+ and Maestro all come to play. Raw data is not actually raw, a lot has been done to it. Different manufacturers have different priorities and capabilities. Medium format cameras tend to leave things more "raw" than 35mm DSLR's. This is one reason why they tend to get smoked in DxO testing. Personally, I just think we should judge based on final output, after all the processing required and so on (and then add in a subjective evaluation on how much work it took to get there!).
    But clearly, if the S2 is not working for you at ISO 400, then it is probably not for you. There is certainly not anything wrong with that!
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    you show pics of an extremely well lit scene, so what is the issue here?
    heard of DxO sensor tests? just check M9 and D3s. or is this too scientific?
    not real world enough---)))?
    i can already guess what will be the next line of arguments: the S2 autofocus beats the D3s autofocus, right?
    peter
    Well, I don't have any line of initial arguments, just responses to undefined, general blanket statements. I doubt anyone has made a claim that the S2 is a low light tool, nor that it is a sports camera for tracking-focus shots, or anything of the sort. Horses for courses. If that is your criteria for your photography, then the S2 is the wrong choice IMO.

    Like with real estate, three words ... application, application, application.

    -Marc

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    hi stuart,
    i do agree that some of the perceptual noise differences come down to the CMOS-CCD issue and the pre-preparation of RAW data (canikon certainly does some of it) and of course user-pp. but signal to noise data (measured off the sensor) speak a very clear language in favour of CMOS technology.
    i believe that the argument is rather moot since the M10 and -i would guess- also the S3 or whatever it will be called, will feature CMOS technology.
    all the best, peter


    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Before this descends any further, just a few short remarks:

    Peter -- Tom said he DOESN'T doubt that the D3s is a better high ISO machine, not that he did doubt.

    As for the speckled color noise pattern, I know what you are referring to, and it is present in both the M9 and S2. It is however, very easily taken care of with even the smallest amount of color noise reduction in lightroom or whatever other RAW converter you use. I think part of the issue here is the difference between CCDs and CMOS sensors. CMOS does a lot of image processing on the chip, and the "RAW" output of a DSLR has had more noise reduction and tweaking in the camera than most CCD cameras. This is where EXPEED and Digic 5+ and Maestro all come to play. Raw data is not actually raw, a lot has been done to it. Different manufacturers have different priorities and capabilities. Medium format cameras tend to leave things more "raw" than 35mm DSLR's. This is one reason why they tend to get smoked in DxO testing. Personally, I just think we should judge based on final output, after all the processing required and so on (and then add in a subjective evaluation on how much work it took to get there!).
    But clearly, if the S2 is not working for you at ISO 400, then it is probably not for you. There is certainly not anything wrong with that!

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Peter,
    I havent done dxo analyses or anything else - I just say what I see and what I like (which might be different from what you like).
    I have shot the M9 in all kinds of light and for my taste I prefer the images up to ISO 640 of the M9 over those from the D700 (I know the d3s has a better sensor but the d700 isnt too bad).
    I have shot many images with the S2 at ISO 640 and also here I can not see any problem. ISO 1250 of the S2 is another question - first I totally avoided it but now I use it here and then, also realizing that 100% is different from looking at files in print and 1250 ISO with the S2 I clearly see as not great.
    I am talking about overall IQ which does not inlcude noise only but also detail and micro detail.
    With the Leica CCDs I find ISO up to a certain value very good (and better than most cmos) but then if you go higher it looks like crap and cmos is still very usable. But thats my taste and I dont say its scientific or the truth, its just my impression and how I see things.

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    here is a 1250 iso and a 640 ISO iamge from the S2, which looks ok to me. (I know its downsized but it doesnt look bad either in a larger size.)




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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    you show pics of an extremely well lit scene, so what is the issue here?
    heard of DxO sensor tests? just check M9 and D3s. or is this too scientific?
    not real world enough---)))?
    i can already guess what will be the next line of arguments: the S2 autofocus beats the D3s autofocus, right?
    peter
    Sorry for many answers,
    but I wanted to add some more thoughts:
    1) I am not talking against Nikon, further more I have used D3 and D3x and still own a D700 and some nice Nikon glass for those times when I want to have fast AF.
    2) Who would care for dxo as long as we have eyes to see. I dont waste my time with such numbers.

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Sorry for many answers,
    but I wanted to add some more thoughts:
    1) I am not talking against Nikon, further more I have used D3 and D3x and still own a D700 and some nice Nikon glass for those times when I want to have fast AF.
    2) Who would care for dxo as long as we have eyes to see. I dont waste my time with such numbers.
    i see your point. but it is at the heart of my scientific believes that generally 'numbers' have a deep impact on reality and that they are able to represent a strong part of what we perceive, if interpreted correcty of course.
    but this is a philosophical point, not a photographic one---)))
    anyway, i do not want to trash leica either, i have an M9 with 5 lenses and the S2 with 4 lenses and i appreciate both systems to some extent. what i criticize is leica's ultraconservative engineering approach. certainly this is at the heart of german engineering tradition but other german companies have become technology leaders (porsche, bmw, audi........etc...). leica still seems still to struggle to free itself from a retro-orientation which in my view has no place in modern photography anymore. but they might prove me wrong later this year in september...
    peter

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    here is a 1250 iso and a 640 ISO iamge from the S2, which looks ok to me. (I know its downsized but it doesnt look bad either in a larger size.)



    Nice shots!

    I think the noise discussion revolves around performance in low ambient rather than decent light. Personally, the use of S2 @ 640 and 1250 more frequently meets a different need ... allowing a smaller aperture for DOF, or a higher shutter speed for action or hand-holding more steady. Really high ISO performance is the domaine of some 35mm DSLRs, however, I never found them to be as good as I was lead to believe they were. Too much CMOS mush ... which the D800E may correct.

    I do use the S2 in low light. While the attached wedding shot (with a crop included) was backlit by a 400w/s strobe, the dominate part was exposed by dragging the shutter to capture the ambient, and shadow detail was restored using shadow recovery ... which can produce more than normal noise.

    I prefer that the camera not apply noise control in a wholesale manner, which is why I like working with the M9, S2 or H4D/60 CCD cameras. This allows me to be very selective as to noise control applications. It is just a different working methodology. Frankly, I don't go out looking for low light challenges beyond the scope of what is possible with the S2 ... that's the place for a good 35mm DSLR IMO.

    I actually hope the S2 doesn't go CMOS ... but it may be a good thing for the M digital since that is supposed to be a low ambient light animal. Or CCD if they could just squeeze another full stop out of it. Pretty sure the M10 will be a CMOS.

    -Marc

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    We'll the OP begged the question, so a few S2 owners answered it. So, what? I see nothing that constitutes a bitter verbal attack or sharp denunciation against anything here ... (unless someone took umbrage to my nick-naming the feisty, but doomed little Chihuahua "Nikon" ) Maybe anyone challenging a Napoleonic delusion, will be tagged as being biased and defensive I suppose.

    Fact is, for some, this D800 is terrific news with-in the world of 35mm DSLRs. Had it been priced at $4,000. or even $5,000. it would still be terrific news ... so, the price no doubt is a big part of the appeal as it opens up the world of higher resolution capture to a lot more people than ever before. Basically, I see it as the democratization of higher resolution capture. Who can argue with that?

    The notion that Leica buyers somehow feel compelled to comparatively justify costs is a red haring, defensive position that is as old as the Leica brand itself. One need not justify anything they enjoy, use and can afford.

    -Marc
    If S2 owners were not so quick to defend, then why all the S2 photographs to show how amazing they are. Although, the thread title is D800e vs S2, there's no production models with prime lenses yet to compare it to the S2. They're two different camera formats,(sort of) so what's to compare other than the fact that there close in MP's and approximately $35,000 difference in price for just one lens S2? I demoed an S2 for a possible purchase, I had it for a week. I loved the form factor, and weather sealing, my intent was to use this for portraits and landscapes, but there was little room for cropping, if needed, and the colors were to "crunchy", and needed dialing back right out of the camera. Having an H4D/40, I couldn't justify what seemed to me a 35mm camera on steroids, and I guess that's why all the comparisons. The S2 is a fantastic camera, for what it is, but I admittedly kept comparing it to a 35mm, and that's exactly why I decided against it. Those who did, you have a fine camera, but let's be honest about these comparisons.

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Marc,

    I love the detail and symmetry in this photo, and how nicely the S2 takes post. Even the un flagged 400w does nice.

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    [B][SIZE="1"]

    Here are a couple of working wedding shots with the S2 ... the "Bridge Kiss" was shot at ISO 320 and pushed a stop in Post to open up the shadows a bit ... crop shows noise levels, or I should say lack of noise levels. The "Pear Picking" shot was done at 640, and crop still shows lack of noise. Of 370 shots done at this wedding 299 were @ ISO 640, so I could keep the shutter speeds up for spontaneous work, as well as these more structured shots. Lots of 17X22 prints were ordered from this wedding ($$$$$$)

    Talk's cheap, exaggerations even cheaper ... let the pics do the talking.

    -Marc
    Marc -
    Great crops. Truly amazing.

    In the one with the flowers, is the hand a bit soft? Is that DOF issue raising its head? Maybe its the lens and aperture? It seems that with MFDB, DOF is more of an issue than one expects....

    Geoff

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    Re: it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2

    I have not read almost any of this but it's clear once again everything gets compared against everything else. The S2 has a lot going for it PERIOD. This simply comes down to money this cost which we all agree is not low is compared to something that is much lower in price so the cheaper model must be better. Folks that is the theme of every one of these comparisons. The cheaper model is always better. It's gotta be its what most of us can afford so lets just make it a better choice. ROTFLMAO

    I so wish this stuff was not based on the delta's. End of day this stuff means very little if someone is completely happy and comfortable with what they have as long as they can produce great art which we all can with a P&S if we had to. Hell I may buy a Nikon also but not to replace my MF gear nor to replace a S2 if I had one. BTW the Nikon is vapor right now how the hell can you compare it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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