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View Poll Results: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds on its promise?

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  • Never. I don't care about paying 10x as much for 10% more quality.

    16 17.39%
  • C'mon, D800 will never match DoF, dynamic range and microcontrast of my Phase One!

    34 36.96%
  • I'm into tech cams.Won't give up Rodesntocks & stitching, even if that luxury costs me 40k more!

    15 16.30%
  • Damn. I just sold off my Canon/Nikon gear to get into MFD!

    8 8.70%
  • If that Zeiss/Leica glass on the D800E performs as I think it should ... EBAY here I come!

    5 5.43%
  • I just preordered a D800E. Hell it's cheaper than that MFD lens I'm longing for!

    14 15.22%
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Thread: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

  1. #101
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    In the end, intention rules the roost... and (in a sense) pays for my gear.

    Even though the Nikon ups the ante in megapixels over my lowly 28mp back, the sensor size renders a different look completely... and that larger-sensor rendition, especially as it relates to DoF, is something that can't be replicated on the smallish sensor. As Fred has shown wonderfully in another thread, go to 6x7 film and the rendition changes even more dramatically. Right now, even my smallish 44x33 sensor and the RZ glass have a look that is worlds different than anything I've gotten from 35mm-land (and I've shot Nikon, Canon, and Sony professional bodies for a living)... and this has nothing to do with good/bad, but everything to do with proclivities towards a certain rendering of the image plane and the subsequent falloff of sharpness behind (and in front of) said plane.

    So.. due to my intentions to shoot subjects with an eye towards how the larger sensor/lens combos render, the D800 won't fit the bill no matter how it "lives up to its promise".

    The sample in this thread looks horrible. I hope others are better... even though I've never seen high-mp nikon camera with a very pleasing rendering on skin.

    Oh... I couldn't get into a well performing D800 system (due to lens costs needed to live up to the high MP) for what I got into my RZ/Aptus system... my RZ cost less than 1/2 the d800, lenses are roughly $200-$400, and my aptus was about the cost of a 200/2 VR. I'm well outfitted in MF land for less than most think it costs. So no money bias here.

    It's about the image and, yes, SIZE MATTERS.
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  2. #102
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    No. Why would I step backward?

    Sorry, but no, I'm not interested in the D800 either. I went on a "Hype" diet some time ago.

    What I consolidated and got rid of is all the pretender cameras with big hype budgets, and spent the money on lighting which makes more impact than any camera I could buy.

    Like it or not, the photo industry has changed dramatically, and "good enough" is the new "excellent." So, it stands to reason that a camera like this will be quite popular. That is the crux of the "numbers" discussion as opposed to the personal art aspect.

    IMHO, if someone thinks they can get to the level of even a 31 meg MFD with a high spec 35MM, then they didn't need a MFD in the first place. I was still shooting an "old tech" 16 Meg CFV on a 203FE when I had a Nikon D3X and all of the latest Nano coated optics, and always preferred the 16 meg MFD files to the 24 meg Nikon ones in terms of IQ. I use 35mm DSLRs for functional differences, not IQ.

    The real question that hasn't been asked is ... how many shooters will dump their $8K D3X for this higher meg camera? That seems to be what will flood the used market ... or will it?

    As to S2 users quaking in their boots ... anyone that says that just doesn't get it. If Leica had launched an 18 to 24 meg 35mm R-10 instead, THAT is what many S2 users would have bought. Leica cameras are a path to their lenses. The S2 is my new 35mm DSLR and the A900 is now relegated to a snapshot camera.

    For some odd reason, a few people want the big guys kicked to the curb, and they want to extoll the virtues of their "little camera that could". No matter how hard they wish upon a star, I doesn't change the fact that it's a fairy tale ... in reality, the only way Canon or Nikon will equal MFD IQ, is if they make a MFD camera and all new lenses.

    -Marc
    Funny thing though - most people who've declared that the D800 is 'as good as' an MFD aren't MFD shooters. I shoot with both, and like many here, it's horses for courses. 35mm has a place in my bag for certain assignments, while MFD has another.

    If I were a shooter on a budget with a stable of good 35mm lenses already, the D800 might be a viable alternative to ponying up a huge chunk of change for an MFD system, for pushing the envelope of what 35mm can do, but knowing that it's not an MFD system.

    Some people are happy with a heavily juiced 600 bhp 4-banger, but let's face it, at a different plane, it's not quite the same as a 600bhp V12 :P
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  3. #103
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    the MF people go to defense mode, the deniers state their everlasting loyalty for MF,...... a lot of fun to read.
    Stefan, you consider a dinosaur anyone who is not shooting video or using your own camera system. It's very easy for you to sit on the mountain and continually proclaim "The future is coming and no-one sees it but me!". There is a lot of room in the world for all flavours of photographic/imaging practice.

    P.S. I don't hear any denying going on from MF owners. I hear intelligent people reacting to a thread with inane poll questions. If anything, there is a lot more talk on the internet from the Nikon cultists who are out for blood, wanting (hoping?) to prove that the D800 will kill MF. This old song keeps getting rehashed every few years, whether its film vs digital, 135 vs MF vs LF, E6 vs C41, wet vs pigment prints, Zeiss vs Leica, Canon vs Nikon, etc etc etc.

    And, yes, I own both Nikon and tech cameras. Both systems help me in my professional work, each in the right context.
    Last edited by cng; 9th February 2012 at 00:09.
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  4. #104
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    I, for one, am excited about the announcement and have pre-ordered an 800E. No.... I won't be selling any of my MF gear but my Zeiss glass will have a new home. I have three Zeiss lenses that I use on my 5DII.... all with Nikon mounts. I had to pay a little extra for lens adaptors but I wanted to have future options. This will more than likely be the perfect travel camera for me.

    Victor

  5. #105
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    @cng

    yes this is raising emotions and if anyone should be concerned than it is me, we heavily rely on MF, I would wish the MF industry would raise their pace.
    I also have deep sympathy for people who hammer out such milestones of engineering as this D800 will soon be called. This camera will change things - for good and bad, if the actual lenses will not hold up - good - there will be better ones ! Zeiss will sell twice as many primes as before, old Leica-R glass will become even more expensive , Nikon will do a ProLens line and this again will force Canon to raise the bar for their forthcoming Cameras and lenses too.
    Good !
    And I will not beat a dead horse now - I will NOT ask what the answers from MF are...........

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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  6. #106
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    ... This camera will change things - for good and bad, ...
    I hope so. Go folks and put your MFD gear on the market

    But at the moment i can't see the flood of thousands of digital backs in Ebay... what a pity for me

  7. #107
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by b&w View Post
    I hope so. Go folks and put your MFD gear on the market

    But at the moment i can't see the flood of thousands of digital backs in Ebay... what a pity for me
    Gimme six weeks and I might have an IQ180 for you

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    This camera will change things - for good and bad
    This is nothing new. EVERY new product has an impact, some more than others. I just don't understand all the angst. Things will settle down once everyone realises the compromises involved with the D800's sensor, similar to what we found with the 80MP backs (diffraction, file sizes etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    I would wish the MF industry would raise their pace.
    Every company in every industry can always theoretically move faster, be braver. But give the MF companies credit where its due, they have achieved a lot. And in some ways, they have even pushed the consumer-based companies to lift their own game. The proof is in the continual release of new glass from Nikon and Canon, as well as now the D800 with it's high MP and negated AA.

    Think for a second what the MF companies HAVE achieved compared to the likes of Canon and Nikon: excellent, constantly updated RAW converters; consistently cutting-edge MFDB's; modular systems able to be paired with amazing lenses; P1's iPad preview tool, etc etc etc. Sure, MF DSLR's could have more functionality, faster focusing lenses, CMOS, video etc., but don't you think that the MF guys know this and are working on it?

    Don't forget also that for a long while Nikon and Canon were considered to be moving too slowly in releasing new and better glass for their DSLR's, let alone a (surprise, surprise) high-MP camera with no AA filter.

  9. #109
    Super Duper
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Marc,

    My tone and intent while writing these comments was droll at best, and nothing more than that. But it's also one of honest opinion and experience. The saying, "you get what you paid for", isn't always true in MFD, at least for me. Without even capturing 100 images, my MFD was on the fritz, just like the other two MFD cameras that followed. My Canon 1Ds however, never once had issues in 10,000 captures, and I sold it for a logical upgrade to MFD. Although, I think I finally have a great H model, each has its rightful place in my business. I certainly won't bring a MFD to cover the Superbowl, that's the Nikon's territory.
    Soon the D800e will be available for me to shoot, and i'll post some RAW images here with no manipulation or adjustments. As I mentioned before MFD has its purpose. Recently I was contacted by a producer from ABC Television, who wanted to purchase one of my photographs they saw in a magazine. One of the prints made from that photo was over 4x3 feet (1.2 x 1 meters). Of all the photographs they could have chosen, it was the MFD image. I'm grateful because i'm not sure my current 35mm FF would have held up to that increase in dimensions. But now Nikon might make that possible at a fraction of the investment - I'd like to at least try.
    Certain photography will always benefit from MFD over any 35mm, in a particular situation, but the slight promise of both formats getting ever so closer, is tantalizing, and exciting for digital photography as a whole.
    Perhaps I should have put a smiley face next to my first comment, so people won't be so offended. Come 'on it's just photography
    Offence, defence ... the retoric here sounds like football descriptions

    Frankly, your ideas about "Applications" ... and Shelby's comments regarding "Intent" ... or Bill's lucid notion regarding "Affect on personal style", get more to the crux of the matter IMO.

    I believe folks that are using a 12 to 21 meg 35mm DSLR and move to 36 meg are going to be in for a surprise. Unless their technique is flawless, and their lenses the latest, greatest and are shot stopped down, they won't be seeing much of the advantage in the end files over what they have now. Higher resolution isn't a walk in the park, it comes with a hidden penalty no camera maker is going to publish in their hype.

    In short, to get anywhere near MFD quality, the shooter will have to employ a MFD approach and technique. That negates the whole advantage of the 35mm form factor. Swift and agile doesn't mix well with mega megs. Not to mention the penalty in shooting speed and high ISO performance people have come to expect of 35mm DSLRs. It is exactly what happened to many 35mm users that moved to the S2 for the similar form factor thinking it was like their 35mm DSLR, but with more res. Surprise! Wrongo!

    Despite the fact that Nikon will sell every one of these D800s they can make because people actually buy into the meg hype without considering any penalty, I personally believe this was a mistake on Nikon's part . The D700 was a great camera ... solid, fast, agile, FF and well suited to 35mm work. If the D800 had followed Canon's excellent example, and moved to 18 meg or so, kept the higher ISO ability, while offering all the new features, it would have retained the spontaneity that is the hallmark of 35mm DSLRs.

    I don't specifically need an almost as good substitute for a lower end MFD, that isn't as good for 35mm work in spontaneous situations and lower light. It leaves me in no-man's land. Like mystery meat ... neither fish nor fowl.

    I've a dilemma now, I built a Sony A900 system that at the time was my "do all" wedding camera ... it has been fine, but deficient in the higher ISO arena. I've been waiting for a Sony version of a high ISO camera which to date hasn't arrived. I'm now afraid a FF low light camera will never come from them, and face the prospect of a system swap again now that I have a S2 to cover the high res needs.

    On a related note: I just read through all the looooong D800 treads on the Pro Digital Wedding Forum (DWF) I belong to. The target that Nikon claims this camera is aimed at isn't exactly thrilled. Many had hoped for a D4 lite ... 18 meg FF that is excellent for lower light, higher ISO performance in a smaller easier to carry package that doesn't max out computer processing and storage when dealing with 500 to 1500 images at a crack for off-line up-loads. The D4 is too big and too expensive for the average wedding shooter, and the D800 can't do what they need. So far, Nikon has left us nothing that fits our needs.

    -Marc
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  10. #110
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Higher resolution isn't a walk in the park, it comes with a hidden penalty no camera maker is going to publish in their hype.

    In short, to get anywhere near MFD quality, the shooter will have to employ a MFD approach and technique. That negates the whole advantage of the 35mm form factor. Swift and agile doesn't mix well with mega megs.
    My thinking exactly, that's why I'm hanging on to my D700. But damn if I'm not tempted by the D800E though. Will be very interested to see reports on suitable lenses and diffraction in the coming weeks/months. I have had my eye on upgrading to the new AF-S 24/35/85 f1.4 lenses for a little while now.

    Personally, my D700 produces nice, film-like files. I have my IQ and tech cam for big files (medium files if using Sensor+). D700 for faster work, tech cam for slower work.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The D4 is too big and too expensive for the average wedding shooter, and the D800 can't do what they need. So far, Nikon has left us nothing that fits our needs.
    Nikon is reportedly continuing to produce the D700 (but for how long?). It may even prove to be a sweeter deal if the rumours of a price drop are true.

  11. #111
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    One look at the Nikon D800 samples was all I needed to see that Nikon is barking up the wrong tree. It is very sharp, but the tonal resolution and punch in the blacks can't even match a P25+. I prefer the shadows from the D7000

    It seems people are getting over exited by the big numbers and claims of medium format quality.

    Here is a sample from the Nikon D800 at iso 100:



    http://chsvimg.nikon.com/lineup/dslr...1/img_04_l.jpg

    This is a good lighting situation to test a camera. Just one light. No fancy lighting to spruce things up.
    Looks dull and rather flat. Eyeballs are greyish and skin does not have a tonal rendition that makes skin luminous or rich.

    On the other hand the Canon 1D X sample files look very very good. Impressive improvement in the overall image quality. may not have the hyper resolution of a 60MP or 80MP but the overall image is terrific. Great blacks and very nice luminous skin tones.

    Personally I think that Canon has made the better choice. 18 MP is the sweet spot.
    At ISO 100 I always preferred my Canon 1ds files to my Canon 5D Mark II

    I am hoping to a little brother to the Canon 1D X running at 5/6 frames per second (or even less) but with stellar focusing and the same 18MP sensor.

    Canon is also developing a 50ish to 100ish f2 zoom with IS. IF it's the same quality of the 70 to 200 2.8L II it will be a lens I'd like for sure.
    It is interesting to scan through the further replies. Above is one who has the intelligence to view the samples and to SEE what it actually appear to be. I agree. I do not think it looks up to the 20MP backs in image quality at low ISO. The samples all look tad plastic and like DSLR. Difference of size of sensors yes, but also a design of sensor for broad range of ISO for general use (indeed appear to apply also for E version).

  12. #112
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    In short, to get anywhere near MFD quality, the shooter will have to employ a MFD approach and technique. That negates the whole advantage of the 35mm form factor. Swift and agile doesn't mix well with mega megs. Not to mention the penalty in shooting speed and high ISO performance people have come to expect of 35mm DSLRs.
    Well said. We have a lot of MF shooters in Death Valley right now and to a one, we've all seen the significant added gains of moving our backs to a tech camera (and the latest tech lenses) from our main main MF SLR system, and this includes Phase, Hassy and Rollei/Leaf camera system users.

    Just as the tech cam cannot compete with the 35 DSLR for speed and agility, the 35 DSLR cannot compete with the tech cam on ultimate imaging quality and image adjustment controls. So while the D800 certainly looks interesting and I am probably going to buy one, it will definitely NOT be replacing my MF tech kit.
    Jack
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    @cng

    yes this is raising emotions and if anyone should be concerned than it is me, we heavily rely on MF, I would wish the MF industry would raise their pace.
    I also have deep sympathy for people who hammer out such milestones of engineering as this D800 will soon be called. This camera will change things - for good and bad, if the actual lenses will not hold up - good - there will be better ones ! Zeiss will sell twice as many primes as before, old Leica-R glass will become even more expensive , Nikon will do a ProLens line and this again will force Canon to raise the bar for their forthcoming Cameras and lenses too.
    Good !
    And I will not beat a dead horse now - I will NOT ask what the answers from MF are...........

    Regards
    Stefan
    What emotions? Do you mean experiential conviction, clearly stated?

    You want MF to raise the pace, I don't! In fact, antidotally, very few people I know actually want that (unless it is free). At one time yes, the pace needed to move along ... but now, we are way past what most people can even realize out of these systems. Very few shooters have a MFD kit long enough to actually learn all it can do, then think in those terms, then exploit it ... before they are onto yet another iteration, and start the cycle all over again.

    For crying out loud, let me catch my breath and get good with this one, before you cram another newer, shiner, one in my face with a bunch of hype attached to it.

    -Marc

  14. #114
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    HI Marc
    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Despite the fact that Nikon will sell every one of these D800s they can make because people actually buy into the meg hype without considering any penalty, I personally believe this was a mistake on Nikon's part . The D700 was a great camera ... solid, fast, agile, FF and well suited to 35mm work. If the D800 had followed Canon's excellent example, and moved to 18 meg or so, kept the higher ISO ability, while offering all the new features, it would have retained the spontaneity that is the hallmark of 35mm DSLRs.
    Whilst I understand what you're saying, I don't agree - at least personally. I don't want to go to MF - but I do want to be able to get good full sized prints from my Epson 3880 - the A900 just about cuts it (as does the M9) - the D700 certainly didn't. 36mp would be enough.

    So - I think there really is a market for high MP 35mm bodies - not to suggest for a second that it's a substitute for MF -. I take you're point about shooting it like an MF camera - but even if you don't, you don't get bad images, just don't maximise

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I don't specifically need an almost as good substitute for a lower end MFD, that isn't as good for 35mm work in spontaneous situations and lower light. It leaves me in no-man's land. Like mystery meat ... neither fish nor fowl.
    No - but lots of us do need that - or at least want it.
    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I've a dilemma now, I built a Sony A900 system that at the time was my "do all" wedding camera ... it has been fine, but deficient in the higher ISO arena. I've been waiting for a Sony version of a high ISO camera which to date hasn't arrived. I'm now afraid a FF low light camera will never come from them, and face the prospect of a system swap again now that I have a S2 to cover the high res needs.
    all the rumour sites seem to suggest that the next FF camera from Sony will be 24mp and that the 36mp version won't come until next year. One would assume that a new 24mp FF sensor from Sony would be really good in the high ISO arena . . . really REALLY good!

    I would expect the 800 to be pretty good at high ISO as well - the pixel pitch suggests a jumped up version of the sensor in the D7000 and the Pentax K5 - both of which do well. I think 3200 is enough for most wedding work . . . and all of these cameras will surely do this.


    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    On a related note: I just read through all the looooong D800 treads on the Pro Digital Wedding Forum (DWF) I belong to. The target that Nikon claims this camera is aimed at isn't exactly thrilled. Many had hoped for a D4 lite ... 18 meg FF that is excellent for lower light, higher ISO performance in a smaller easier to carry package that doesn't max out computer processing and storage when dealing with 500 to 1500 images at a crack for off-line up-loads. The D4 is too big and too expensive for the average wedding shooter, and the D800 can't do what they need. So far, Nikon has left us nothing that fits our needs.

    -Marc
    But wedding photographers always whinge (I know - because I do it myself)

    The reason I don't want a D800 is because I've discovered the joys of focus peaking with Leica R lenses . . . and of course, that won't be available, so I'll need to wait for the Sony equivalent. . . . . but I would like the 36mp for at least some of my work.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    I have not really run into moiree problems with the S2 and the M9 - if Nikon offers both a D800 and a D800E - is there a reason to believe the D800E would show more often moiree-problems than the M9 or the S2?
    The fact that Nikon offers both versions would make me thinking if Ihad to decide between the 2.

    I dont shoot fashion but often take images of kids and they also wear fabrics.
    Recently I had few images wihc showed some miree on the camera display but it all disappeared in Lightroom.

    Do others share my experience?

  16. #116
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I have not really run into moiree problems with the S2 and the M9 - if Nikon offers both a D800 and a D800E - is there a reason to believe the D800E would show more often moiree-problems than the M9 or the S2?
    The fact that Nikon offers both versions would make me thinking if Ihad to decide between the 2.

    I dont shoot fashion but often take images of kids and they also wear fabrics.
    Recently I had few images wihc showed some miree on the camera display but it all disappeared in Lightroom.

    Do others share my experience?
    In relationship to and as an addition to your question, are all the current cameras that have no AA, use a CCD sensor or are there any cameras out there with no AA and CMOS? The reason I ask is why did Nikon go though their apparently elaborate set-up of canceling glass/filter array to achieve the effect of no AA as opposed to how most others do it? Maybe it's due to how the CMOS without AA captures an image vs a CCD without AA (and what the two respective images look like with respect to moire') and that's why Nikon had to employ their scheme? Maybe I'm missing something or not seeing the obvious?

    Dave (D&A)

  17. #117
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Fotografz- "I believe folks that are using a 12 to 21 meg 35mm DSLR and move to 36 meg are going to be in for a surprise. Unless their technique is flawless, and their lenses the latest, greatest and are shot stopped down, they won't be seeing much of the advantage in the end files over what they have now. Higher resolution isn't a walk in the park, it comes with a hidden penalty no camera maker is going to publish in their hype."

    Ah, but what if their technique is just that...flawless? The idea is to pull in this market share of pros/semi-pros and rank amateurs who want to shoot in this realm of MP's, and because the initial investment is so little compared to MFD, they can do just that. Higher resolution isn't rocket science either!

    These generic assumptions that the new D800 owners won't be able to master technique is flawed because most likely, this camera will fill a void and compliment a MFD users camera bag and not replace it. The ones that step right into purchasing D800 as their only camera could also be the ones that want to improve their camera technique and thus, figure it out. The learning curve with photography has been greatly reduced with digital!

    Fotografz-" Very few shooters have a MFD kit long enough to actually learn all it can do, then think in those terms, then exploit it ... before they are onto yet another iteration, and start the cycle all over again.
    For crying out loud, let me catch my breath and get good with this one, before you cram another newer, shiner, one in my face with a bunch of hype attached to it."


    Marc, this is the same point I made in my first comment about business models in MFD that I got trounced for. I wouldn't assume that MFD shooters aren't exploiting there camera before switching, but the nature of planned obsolescence in this industry creates "pixel envy" and now you have to justify that to your ego...or your spouse!

    Nobody expects these cameras to replace MFD, but in fact, enhance the experience. Sony will soon introduce the A99 with it's translucent mirror, that won't even move during 10 FPS capture! Now why can't a $40,000 MFD camera do that?

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post

    Nobody expects these cameras to replace MFD, but in fact, enhance the experience. Sony will soon introduce the A99 with it's translucent mirror, that won't even move during 10 FPS capture! Now why can't a $40,000 MFD camera do that?
    I quite agree with you - I wonder if it won't actually increase demand for MF when people understand the distinction and lust after more . . .
    As for the A99 - bring it on!

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    In relationship to and as an addition to your question, are all the current cameras that have no AA, use a CCD sensor or are there any cameras out there with no AA and CMOS? The reason I ask is why did Nikon go though their apparently elaborate set-up of canceling glass/filter array to achieve the effect of no AA as opposed to how most others do it? Maybe it's due to how the CMOS without AA captures an image vs a CCD without AA (and what the two respective images look like with respect to moire') and that's why Nikon had to employ their scheme? Maybe I'm missing something or not seeing the obvious?

    Dave (D&A)
    The only CMOS sensored cameras without an AA (direct from factory) are the Ricoh A12 M mount and the upcoming Fuji X-Pro 1.

    It isn't clear to me why Nikon have implemented such a filter in the D800E. Apparently, the AA filter requirement for the analog CCD sensors are much simpler than the ones for the digital CMOS sensors.

    Having said that, I have been using NMOS sensors (a variant of CMOS) without the AA filter stack and just plain glass with high transmission with no ill effects in any region from 300nm to 1100nm!
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The only CMOS sensored cameras without an AA (direct from factory) are the Ricoh A12 M mount and the upcoming Fuji X-Pro 1.

    It isn't clear to me why Nikon have implemented such a filter in the D800E. Apparently, the AA filter requirement for the analog CCD sensors are much simpler than the ones for the digital CMOS sensors.

    Having said that, I have been using NMOS sensors (a variant of CMOS) without the AA filter stack and just plain glass with high transmission with no ill effects in any region from 300nm to 1100nm!
    Interesting info, thanks! None of those CMOS cameras you mentioned lacking AA, are full frame. Its possible that the incidence, frequency and/or kind of moire seen with a CMOS without AA (where the AA is simply removed like done with the M9, S2 and MF back CCD's) would be too problematic and thats why Nikon had implement it in the way that they have in the D800e. I doubt they would go through all that trouble for nothing.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    No I'm just interested in people's economical priorities. It is true that the camera per se is not a deciding factor if your output is considered "professional" and I bet a good architectural photographer will create stunning work with a 5D MKII and a TSE 17. But there's that thing of democratization of photography that leads to your uncle doing freelance wedding photography for 300 USD with his newly acquired 5D MKII. 30 Years ago the entry price for wedding photography was much higher. I remember a wedding where the guy had a Hasselblad 500 and at that time I didn't know anything about photography but was impressed by the professional looking camera and I was sure it cost him a lot of money ...
    My parents wedding was shot on two Minolta Autocords. Came out beautifully.
    No big investment for a couple of AutoCords.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Dave

    I am using a rebuilt Canon 5D MKII with the AA removed as well as the UV/IR Cut. I do very - I mean VERY RARELY see any moiree.
    If I do see it on location, I can just move some centimeters backwards or forwards and it´s gone most of the time. If this slips through, I still have Capture One and paint a mask on the moiree, pull one slider and - it´s gone.
    Why should this be more of a problem than with the MF backs ?

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Dave

    I am using a rebuilt Canon 5D MKII with the AA removed as well as the UV/IR Cut. I do very - I mean VERY RARELY see any moiree.
    If I do see it on location, I can just move some centimeters backwards or forwards and it´s gone most of the time. If this slips through, I still have Capture One and paint a mask on the moiree, pull one slider and - it´s gone.
    Why should this be more of a problem than with the MF backs ?

    regards
    Stefan
    I just wondered why Nikon does not just offer the D800E if its so easy to remove with software.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Dave

    I am using a rebuilt Canon 5D MKII with the AA removed as well as the UV/IR Cut. I do very - I mean VERY RARELY see any moiree.
    If I do see it on location, I can just move some centimeters backwards or forwards and it´s gone most of the time. If this slips through, I still have Capture One and paint a mask on the moiree, pull one slider and - it´s gone.
    Why should this be more of a problem than with the MF backs ?

    regards
    Stefan
    Hi Stefen,

    I'm not saying its more of a problem with MF backs. I was wondering if removing an AA on a CMOS sensor causes more of a problem or issues than removing it on CCD...since Nikon apparently went through a lot more trouble that just simply leaving it off on their D800e model. There must be a logical reason why they implimented it in such a way resulting in part for the increase in price over the D800.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 10th February 2012 at 06:17.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I just wondered why Nikon does not just offer the D800E if its so easy to remove with software.
    I wondered that too but my assumption is with Nikon's relatively large user base (compared to say 645D S2 and MF digital backs users), they would have angered half who had to deal with any moire' in post processing (D800e users) while upsetting others by not allowing the camera to reach full potential (D800 users). This way they satisfy both camps with one basic model and avoid major criticism.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    I think Nikon's answer to no Anti (A) filter has something to do with the way the light is gathered or scattered, but that there's still a component to the sensor array. Obviously, the less glass or filter results in a cleaner image, much like a prime vs zoom. The Sony A99 will supposedly have no Anti (A) filter either.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    The fun with MF images thread has 8261 posts. You guys are going to have to increase your posting frequency here to catch up.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Hi Stefen,

    I'm not saying its more of a problem with MF backs. I was wondering if removing an AA on a CMOS sensor causes more of a problem or issues than removing it on CCD...since Nikon aparntly went through a lot more trouble that just simply leaving it off on their D800e model. There must be a logical reason why they implimented it in such a way resulting in part for the increase in price over the D800.

    Dave (D&A)
    I think Nikon is leaving it on to create the same optical path length. That appears easier than making a different sensor position for the D800E--both cameras can use the same molds.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders_HK View Post
    It is interesting to scan through the further replies. Above is one who has the intelligence to view the samples and to SEE what it actually appear to be. I agree. I do not think it looks up to the 20MP backs in image quality at low ISO. The samples all look tad plastic and like DSLR. Difference of size of sensors yes, but also a design of sensor for broad range of ISO for general use (indeed appear to apply also for E version).
    Really not fair from you guys to comment a sensor IQ based on this kind of photo.
    Look dull ? yes, sure. Surprised with such histo ??... a simple level correction makes the pic look already better.

    I'll carefully wait for well taken raw - and for feedback like the one I hope tashley will give us.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I think Nikon is leaving it on to create the same optical path length. That appears easier than making a different sensor position for the D800E--both cameras can use the same molds.
    Hi Shashin
    I'm sure you're right - it'll be interesting to see whether a double AA filter (do it then undo it) is really exactly the same as no AA filter.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Posted images are from prerelease D800 cameras and software/firmware. If this thread is about quality at the pixel level then it's three months early to discuss that.

    OTOH if this discussion is about sensor size, glass, and camera system then such a discussion makes much more sense.
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I just wondered why Nikon does not just offer the D800E if its so easy to remove with software.
    I'm guessing it's because the DSLR market is driven by high-volume shooters who don't have the time to examine each image at the detail level required to find and remove moire when it shows up.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Check out this image from this blogger. I think it is quite amazing for a 3k camera. The tiff of a fashion model is linked at this address:

    NIKON D 800 « PHOTO LEGACY

    So what do you guys think of the IQ?

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    Check out this image from this blogger. I think it is quite amazing for a 3k camera. The tiff of a fashion model is linked at this address:

    NIKON D 800 « PHOTO LEGACY

    So what do you guys think of the IQ?
    It seems overexposed.
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Whilst I understand what you're saying, I don't agree - at least personally. I don't want to go to MF - but I do want to be able to get good full sized prints from my Epson 3880 - the A900 just about cuts it (as does the M9) - the D700 certainly didn't. 36mp would be enough.
    I completely agree with you here - and I think it's because like me you do a lot of travel photography. Planes, buses, trains, moto rickshaws, by foot. I'm happy to put the camera on a tripod, take distance measurements (using AF no less) and carefully manage DoF. But I'm not willing to carry a MFD kit - that's just not going to happen. And when I got the carefully set up shot over with I pop the camera off the tripod and hand hold it. Maybe put a 70-200 VR on and set it to ISO 1600. Sure the tripod work will be technically better, I don't think that ought to surprise anyone, but the latter isn't going to be worse than any other 35mm camera, and with VR, good f/2.8 performance and high ISO it's going to run circles around anything MF handheld in low light.

    Unlike you though I really want the broad range of Nikon glass, from T/S to fisheyes, to a 500/4. I want an underwater housing for it. Again, I want versatility that no MF system can offer. And I'm not waiting for the A99, because Sony is so short in the optical department, short on third-party L brackets and QR plates, short on third-party accessories (like UW housings), uses silly memory sticks, and I'm concerned they'll go all-EVF. Though I could live with all that, the fact that Nikon is making the D800E without the AA filter seriously convinced me. Sony has traditionally better color response (to my taste), but everything else about the A99 is a big fat unknown... can I get it w/o an AA filter? With OVF? Will I get a decent L bracket for it? So in the D800E I see win-win-win-meh, in the A99 I see win-maybe-maybe-maybe. A little too much pig in the sack at this point for me...

    I know every lens isn't going to push the technical limits of the D800E - and that's fine. I just won't use those lenses to those ends, like a 105/2.5. Just like I shoot with a Summarit 5cm f2 on my M9; it has qualities that make it attractive for reasons other than resolving power. And packing a lens for some particular type of shot is pretty easy. Secondary gear like this I often just wrap in a shirt and toss in the suitcase.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    It seems overexposed.
    My exact thoughts . Why would anyone post a full size TIFF and blow the heck out of highlights ? Makes me wonder how nikon picked the photographers for the beta testing .

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    Sony has traditionally better color response (to my taste), but everything else about the A99 is a big fat unknown... can I get it w/o an AA filter? With OVF? Will I get a decent L bracket for it? So in the D800E I see win-win-win-meh, in the A99 I see win-maybe-maybe-maybe. A little too much pig in the sack at this point for me...
    Hi Jan
    I think you're right - I can see lots of advantages in the D800e . . the reason I'm not leaping down Nikon's throat is:

    1. although I prefer an optical finder, I can live with an EVF, and I want to use Leica R lenses . . . and as far as I'm concerned that means an EVF

    2. I'm not in so much of a hurry - this is the first iteration of this sensor, but history suggests that there will be other implementations . . . and it's always possible that Leica will come up with the perfect solution. Right now the A900, A77, NEX7 and of course my lovely M9 are producing the results.

    3. I've moved to Nikon before . . . and out again 3 times now, and it's always the colour which has sent me away (yes yes - my problem, not Nikon's!)

    4. It means a complete system switch, and although I could do it . . it would mean swapping those nice Zeiss lenses for Nikon . . and I'm not ready to go there yet .

    We have two trips planned, but they're both lightweight trips, so it'll be the M9s - another reason not to make a decision yet.

    all the best

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    SLR hand held shooters don't need MF - in fact MF it is a dumbing and sub optimal exercise in futility for that style of work.

    ANY 35mm SLR is better than ANY MF camera for that style of shooting or work.


    Pete

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I believe folks that are using a 12 to 21 meg 35mm DSLR and move to 36 meg are going to be in for a surprise. Unless their technique is flawless, and their lenses the latest, greatest and are shot stopped down, they won't be seeing much of the advantage in the end files over what they have now. Higher resolution isn't a walk in the park, it comes with a hidden penalty no camera maker is going to publish in their hype.
    I agree with one exception ... they aren't going to be able to shoot stopped down anymore. A customer today that ordered both a d800 and d800E was puzzled that all of the sample files he's seen so far have been shot at f/4 or f/5.6. Good chance this camera may show diffraction at f/8. Those that like to shoot a f/11 or f/16 might find they don't get much more out of it than the did a D3x or a 5Dmark2.
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Samples I have seen from the Canon 1D X look very nice. The perfect complement to a MF digital amd a large MF film camera.

    Super fast and very advanced auto focus in a package with a realistic MP count for a FF 35mm sensor.

    18 million really good pixels will beat 36 crammed into a small space.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Marc

    Whilst I understand what you're saying, I don't agree - at least personally. I don't want to go to MF - but I do want to be able to get good full sized prints from my Epson 3880 - the A900 just about cuts it (as does the M9) - the D700 certainly didn't. 36mp would be enough.

    So - I think there really is a market for high MP 35mm bodies - not to suggest for a second that it's a substitute for MF -. I take you're point about shooting it like an MF camera - but even if you don't, you don't get bad images, just don't maximise

    No - but lots of us do need that - or at least want it.

    all the rumour sites seem to suggest that the next FF camera from Sony will be 24mp and that the 36mp version won't come until next year. One would assume that a new 24mp FF sensor from Sony would be really good in the high ISO arena . . . really REALLY good!

    I would expect the 800 to be pretty good at high ISO as well - the pixel pitch suggests a jumped up version of the sensor in the D7000 and the Pentax K5 - both of which do well. I think 3200 is enough for most wedding work . . . and all of these cameras will surely do this.

    But wedding photographers always whinge (I know - because I do it myself)

    The reason I don't want a D800 is because I've discovered the joys of focus peaking with Leica R lenses . . . and of course, that won't be available, so I'll need to wait for the Sony equivalent. . . . . but I would like the 36mp for at least some of my work.
    Excellent points here Jono, and subsequently by others. By taking it out of MFD verses D800, and evaluating the merits of the D800 against personal need, a clearer positioning can be discussed. Yes, I could see this becoming a number one choice for a Travel/Adventure camera. There are always threads by people agonizing over what to take to some exotic location ... and it usually centers around size/weight verses IQ.

    Point also taken on the printing aspect. While I think the A900 and M9 are perfectly able to make 17X22s on my 3880, the ability to crop a 36 meg file provides more creative lee-way.

    I seriously hope the rumors and assumptions of a high ISO Sony Alpha DSLR are true. 24 meg with a super clean 3200 or even 6400 is exactly what I need to keep this system alive for my application needs, because the current A900 can't compete with the S2 for all the rest. I'm more interested in how the M10 will do in that respect than a 35mm DSLR.

    As to weddings, the camera is over-kill for most professionals ... while you may shoot weddings also, the people I'm quoting do it for a living and shoot upwards of 30 to 50+ weddings a season on average. Many felt the 5D-II went to far, but mitigated that criticism because a compressed RAW could be shot. IMO, anyone that HAS to shoot anywhere near 50 weddings has every right to whine

    -Marc

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    SLR hand held shooters don't need MF - in fact MF it is a dumbing and sub optimal exercise in futility for that style of work.

    ANY 35mm SLR is better than ANY MF camera for that style of shooting or work.


    Pete
    There is a more 'open' point of view:
    Make a trip to Thailand, take hand held photos in a crowded market, of children running in the streets and from a boat - then wake-up early next morning for a technical landscape shot on tripod, etc.
    Can do that with a D3x and then a Phase One if you have the money and find not to be a problem to travel with such large equipment kit (good luck on the plane) - or with a single system that (almost) reach medium format IQ and still has DSLR shooting ergonomic and convenience.
    I really doubt that the D800E will be good enough in pure IQ (maybe to early technologically) but sometime it will happen. Nevertheless a good D800E review will be worth reading.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    Check out this image from this blogger. I think it is quite amazing for a 3k camera. The tiff of a fashion model is linked at this address:

    NIKON D 800 « PHOTO LEGACY

    So what do you guys think of the IQ?
    We need to see pictures taken with decent lenses rather than zooms, the sharpness just isn't up to par on this shot even with sharpening. Or is this the version with the AA filter? I thought it was the E version.
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  44. #144
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by anGy View Post
    There is a more 'open' point of view:
    Make a trip to Thailand, take hand held photos in a crowded market, of children running in the streets and from a boat - then wake-up early next morning for a technical landscape shot on tripod, etc.
    Can do that with a D3x and then a Phase One if you have the money and find not to be a problem to travel with such large equipment kit (good luck on the plane) - or with a single system that (almost) reach medium format IQ and still has DSLR shooting ergonomic and convenience.
    I really doubt that the D800E will be good enough in pure IQ (maybe to early technologically) but sometime it will happen. Nevertheless a good D800E review will be worth reading.
    What I dont understand here would be the big difference between the D3x and the D800 besides a little bit more resolution.
    If you are writing about MF IQ and (near) DSLR-shooting experience it would be the S2 in my eyes.

    And-I might get critics for that- but I find the approach to shoot with the S2 not that much different than shooting with a DSLR.
    I keep the exp times a little shorter (if possible - however I have also had good shots with 1/30 Sec. handhold) and you have to compensate a bit the shallower DOF by stopping down. The AF is a bit slower but then its very accurate and the large viewfinder makes it much easier to check if you have focus correctly or tomanually focus if you like.
    The S2 with 2 lenses (I can often decide for 2 lenses when I know what I will be shooting) fits in a relativly small backpack leaving the upper area of the backback free for other stuff or a third lens.

    What I am trying to say is that MF doesnt necessarly mean that you cant use it in the field. I carry it even for the sundayafternoon walk with the family in a sling bag.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Where is it overexposed or blown?

    I took readings off this shot, and even the specular highlight in the eye from the Octa box is holding ample tone. The only zero reading is directly behind her right shoulder and the small specular highlight on her thumbnail.

    We may not like the lighting approach, but the tone is there for adjustments. This can tell us the degree of plasticity the files have for curves adjustments even with a tiff. Try it yourself, bring it into LR4 and also experiment with the new more sensitive exposure adjustment tools.

    The Exif info says it's ISO 100, and 70mm @ f/9. Oddly, the exif doesn't identify which lens. I'd guess it's the 24-70/2.8 (or maybe the 70-200/2.8), both of which are very good Nikon lenses. IMO, to say we need to see shots from primes, begs the question "which primes?" ... this was shot at f/9 where the difference is all but eliminated depending on which lenses we're talking about. Besides, eliminating zooms further limits the whole notion of versatility from a 35mm DSLR. IMO, zooms have to be taken into account regarding IQ.

    At 100% screen, the shot doesn't look very detail-sharp for a 36 meg camera. At 1/160th shutter along with flash duration, subject/camera movement shouldn't be the issue. The hair with-in the plane of focus on the light side (camera right), isn't defined, and the lower eye-lashes are blurry/mushy. I sure hope the hell that diffraction isn't setting in that much at f/9.

    I agree with the blogger regarding the skin-tones ... this is one reason I abandoned Nikon, and it seems to persists with this camera based on this example. Remains to be seen if it is representative. In no way can something like this skin rendering compete with my MFD cameras, especially a Dalsa chipped MFD. In fact, my A900 does a much better job. Skin is important because it is the most difficult thing to adjust, so counting on Post processing is not always the wisest plan of action.

    Time will tell ... initial images always seem to be lacking. However, it is an alert to be vigilant and not just jump in without seeing a lot more.

    -Marc

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Think I've been hoping to try to give it the benefit of the doubt Marc by hoping it's lens/software based, the mush isn't very inspiring.

    I was chatting to Stefan last night, he mentioned that the skin colour/tone deficiencies we see in these cameras is on purpose, it's the way they prefer the rendition in the far east, the cameras are not calibrated for western tastes in facial colour/tones. Interesting take on things.
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Think I've been hoping to try to give it the benefit of the doubt Marc by hoping it's lens/software based, the mush isn't very inspiring.

    I was chatting to Stefan last night, he mentioned that the skin colour/tone deficiencies we see in these cameras is on purpose, it's the way they prefer the rendition in the far east, the cameras are not calibrated for western tastes in facial colour/tones. Interesting take on things.
    Well Ben, I guess I had a D700, D3 and D3X that was calibrated that way then ... odd, since I bought my Nikons in the USA ... along with every modern, nano coated new lens available at the time ... even the 200/2 VR.

    Processing wedding files from those cameras took twice as long as it does with my Sony A900 (which has the same sensor as the D3X but obviously doesn't adhere to the same color calibration as the Nikon ). Skin is a bitch to deal with, and as you well know, 99% of a wedding and 100% of portrait work involves skin tones. It's my evaluative basis for any system.

    However, let's not place to much stock in one initial image. Give the thing some breathing room and time to get it into a lot more hands.

    -Marc

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    He was talking about Nikon and Canon cameras in general.
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Think I've been hoping to try to give it the benefit of the doubt Marc by hoping it's lens/software based, the mush isn't very inspiring.

    I was chatting to Stefan last night, he mentioned that the skin colour/tone deficiencies we see in these cameras is on purpose, it's the way they prefer the rendition in the far east, the cameras are not calibrated for western tastes in facial colour/tones. Interesting take on things.
    This might explain why I - as a german-like the Leica colors
    But i heard that before- for example between the Panasonic DLUX4 and the equivalent Leica digicam showing different color and that Europeans like other color than Asians. I dont know about the Americans-which color-approach they would prefer

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    What I dont understand here would be the big difference between the D3x and the D800 besides a little bit more resolution.
    If you are writing about MF IQ and (near) DSLR-shooting experience it would be the S2 in my eyes.

    And-I might get critics for that- but I find the approach to shoot with the S2 not that much different than shooting with a DSLR.
    I keep the exp times a little shorter (if possible - however I have also had good shots with 1/30 Sec. handhold) and you have to compensate a bit the shallower DOF by stopping down. The AF is a bit slower but then its very accurate and the large viewfinder makes it much easier to check if you have focus correctly or tomanually focus if you like.
    The S2 with 2 lenses (I can often decide for 2 lenses when I know what I will be shooting) fits in a relativly small backpack leaving the upper area of the backback free for other stuff or a third lens.

    What I am trying to say is that MF doesnt necessarly mean that you cant use it in the field. I carry it even for the sundayafternoon walk with the family in a sling bag.
    D800 vs D3x = 50% more resolution, 50% less weight and volume, 50% of the price. So if - and only if - IQ is good enough, it can well replace the D3x (when no pro body is needed).

    I'm sure the S2 is a wonderful system. Really tempting thanks to its ergonomics and lens quality. But I keep thinking that such investment with no possibility to use it on a tech cam is a biiiig draw back. This is why I chose a Phase One back.
    And this is also why I secretly hope that the D800E will be ''good enough'' to make me choose to play with it in certain circumstances and leave my IQ back at home.

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