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View Poll Results: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds on its promise?

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  • Never. I don't care about paying 10x as much for 10% more quality.

    16 17.39%
  • C'mon, D800 will never match DoF, dynamic range and microcontrast of my Phase One!

    34 36.96%
  • I'm into tech cams.Won't give up Rodesntocks & stitching, even if that luxury costs me 40k more!

    15 16.30%
  • Damn. I just sold off my Canon/Nikon gear to get into MFD!

    8 8.70%
  • If that Zeiss/Leica glass on the D800E performs as I think it should ... EBAY here I come!

    5 5.43%
  • I just preordered a D800E. Hell it's cheaper than that MFD lens I'm longing for!

    14 15.22%
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Thread: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

  1. #151
    Super Duper
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    He was talking about Nikon and Canon cameras in general.
    Do you agree with that regarding Canon Ben? I don't, nor do I agree regarding Sony either. Skin tones from the Sony A900 have been on, or very close, right out of the camera regardless of ethnic origin.

    While this test shot is preliminary, it is indicative of my previous (subjective) experiences with Nikon skin rendering. Not that it can't be adjusted, but that it has to be adjusted to that degree in the first place.

    What is a bit disconcerting is that this sample was done with clean light, and while it renders the details of the skin quite well as evidenced by the pores and blemishes @ 100%, the over-all feel lacks the luminance of skin ... (even taking into account heavy make-up, I doubt her arms are heavily made up). The general effect is like color was added afterward, which never looks quite real.

    Oh well not my worry ... I have no plan to get one anyway.

    -Marc

  2. #152
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Struggling over samples right now is a exercise in futility. No one EVER shoots great samples out the door. Simply can't judge things right now until it's out and software is supporting it. Not sure why anyone thinks this is a MF killer. There may never be one. I say that as I am buying more lenses for my tech cam and just bought a cube for it. LOL

    Okay back to workshop but have to say folks scanning these posts your all nuts. MF is MF nothing smaller will equal it end of day but sure this may get closer but getting your panties in a wad of a pissing match is not worth the effort over it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  3. #153
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Relax have fun and go enjoy photography.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  4. #154
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    It is all the same, every time a new camera present to the market, the old ones are just old crap - a day before best you can get, a day after impossible to make photos with it

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Relax have fun and go enjoy photography.
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  5. #155
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ....I am buying more lenses for my tech cam and just bought a cube for it. LOL

    .....
    The last hold out.

    Congratulations! Now we're all twinsies!

    ken

  6. #156
    Super Duper
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by anGy View Post
    D800 vs D3x = 50% more resolution, 50% less weight and volume, 50% of the price. So if - and only if - IQ is good enough, it can well replace the D3x (when no pro body is needed).

    I'm sure the S2 is a wonderful system. Really tempting thanks to its ergonomics and lens quality. But I keep thinking that such investment with no possibility to use it on a tech cam is a biiiig draw back. This is why I chose a Phase One back.
    And this is also why I secretly hope that the D800E will be ''good enough'' to make me choose to play with it in certain circumstances and leave my IQ back at home.
    Yes, not being able to use the S2 as a digital back on a tech cam is maybe its biggest disadvantage - but I guess its the price for having a relativly compact and weatherproof MF camera. Even though I have to admit that it was more the process of using a Tech cam than really taking benefit of the T/S stuff which made me use the Artec.
    I think Techcams are overhyped anyways these days

  7. #157
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Think I've been hoping to try to give it the benefit of the doubt Marc by hoping it's lens/software based, the mush isn't very inspiring.

    I was chatting to Stefan last night, he mentioned that the skin colour/tone deficiencies we see in these cameras is on purpose, it's the way they prefer the rendition in the far east, the cameras are not calibrated for western tastes in facial colour/tones. Interesting take on things.
    Fuji vs. Kodak.

    30 years later, Fuji growing; Kodak shrinking.

  8. #158
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    but I guess its the price for having a relativly compact and weatherproof MF camera.
    Nah, the price for having the S2 is twenty thousand quid, or seventeen and a half thousand quid more than the Nikon.

  9. #159
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Nah, the price for having the S2 is twenty thousand quid, or seventeen and a half thousand quid more than the Nikon.
    Actually the difference is a little bit less - but yes - I agree, it is a lot of money one has to pay if you want medium format image quality.
    Thats why my wife has to drive an 9 year old VW-T4 instead of a new T5 But I believe its worth it.

  10. #160
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    "....I was chatting to Stefan last night, he mentioned that the skin colour/tone deficiencies we see in these cameras is on purpose, it's the way they prefer the rendition in the far east, the cameras are not calibrated for western tastes in facial colour/tones. Interesting take on things...."

    Does someone remember these strange looking calibration samples that were sold by Fuji maybe 10 years ago, Japanese Girl sitting on a table with lots of stuff and colorcharts. On western standards she looked like already been a vampire, but the Japanese like that. Still if you take alook at Japanese magazines their skintones are different and overall they like more color saturation and a bit more flat gradation.

    I am sure that the international marketing departments have had a voice in this connection and Canon and Nikon are doing different firmware for different markets too. Raw output is differing anyway, but I strongly suspect that the beta bodies used for these shots were running japanese develloper style prerelease firmware and the JPG output was directly from the camera.

    regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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  11. #161
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Skin tone is HIGHLY subjective. The reality (actual scientific skintone) varies strongly from person to person and from one region/ethnicity to another. Cultural expectations/biases/preferences vary strongly from one culture to another. Color is relative within a frame (skin may look too magenta when the model is lying in a field of green grass vs. in a field of purple flowers - even if the RGB of the skin is the same in each). Finally Industry/Category standards vary (fashion/portrait/fine-art) and technological possibilities vary over time (what you can do with film responses changed over the years and now what can be done with IR cutoffs, ICC profiling, and Photoshop has changed over the years.

    This is why I could not live without the Skin Tone section of the Color Editor in C1. You can roll-your-own skin tone in a few minutes and then in the future preview/apply various presets with a single click.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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  12. #162
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Have to agree with Doug on that point. My son has a difficult skin tone to get right especially in front of a background with warm red/yellow tones. I struggled with Lightroom and Aperture and finally got it spot on with C1. And these were files from my D700. I am interested in the D800 professionally. MFD would be great for portrait work but not for shooting dance. I have to face economic realities here. I currently cannot afford two cameras for pro work. I have to see what system will get me the most bag for my buck. I will test the D800/D800E and see if it provides me with any benefits. Otherwise I will carry on with what I have and wait for TNBT (The Next Big Thing).
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  13. #163
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    I think ultimately with skin tones is about accuracy rather than taste right? I mean I have Asian eyes, but I doubt I see things MORE yellow right? :P

    Seriously though, I found the RAW files Nikon D700 gave me more yellow skin tones, and feel Canon gives more accurately balance skin tones in general. Both are Japanese manufacturers. So I question the taste comment, even though it may be true!

    Samples from the Canon 1DX as a new camera, showed to me better skin hues too! I put an early order on B&H for the D800E, but am now faced with debating about possibly cancelling my order based on two main criteria, one color fidelity and sharpness. Perhaps I'm seeing things, I don't find things sharp upto MF quality, while certainly there is detail with larger MP, from the samples alone there isn't enough definition in the details, while my choice of wording may be wrong, I hope I am conveying what I am trying to say.....or not! :P

    There may also be a third excuse I'm hiding too!

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    I think ultimately with skin tones is about accuracy rather than taste right? I mean I have Asian eyes, but I doubt I see things MORE yellow right? :P
    Shoot a baby at two weeks old and tell me if you want "accurate" or "pleasing" skin tones.

    Historically Fuji and Kodak made special films that took colors near a particular "skin tone" and pushed them to be more similar to that particular skin tone than they were (scientifically/accurately). That created more "pleasing" skin tones in that areas of skin that were patchy magenta or unhealthy looking olive were nudged back towards a uniform standard skin tone. It's stunning to me that they were able to do this chemically, but then again we put a man on the moon with 60s technology...

    The caveat was that they (Fuji/Kodak) picked what the target skin tone was. The benefit however was that you, the photographer, could pick up a Portra film when shooting portraits and a Velvia when shooting landscapes, and a repro film when shooting Art Reproduction.

    Canon and Nikon cameras are used for everything, not just portraits, so they can only go so far. If they (and PP software) were too aggressive at defaults then people who shoot products would complain that e.g. two shades of a red purse were showing as the same color.

    That's why the Skin Tone tab in Color Editor is so great. It lets you:
    - be as aggressive as you'd like (keep off for product catalogs, use mildly for models, aggressively for newborns)
    - also adjust skin luminance (great, when used in moderation, for hard/uncontrolled lighting conditions like weddings)
    - target a specific skin tone of your choosing
    - apply to incoming shots when shooting tethered (instantly beautifying your subjects)
    - greatly reduce the appearance of blemishes when combined properly with the rest of the Color Editor.

    This is also why Phase One and Leaf backs come with pre-made Skin Tone oriented profiles ("Portrait" profiles) in Capture One.

    If you're shooting people it's hard to beat.

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  15. #165
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post

    Samples from the Canon 1DX as a new camera, showed to me better skin hues too! I put an early order on B&H for the D800E, but am now faced with debating about possibly cancelling my order based on two main criteria, one color fidelity and sharpness. Perhaps I'm seeing things, I don't find things sharp upto MF quality, while certainly there is detail with larger MP, from the samples alone there isn't enough definition in the details, while my choice of wording may be wrong, I hope I am conveying what I am trying to say.....or not! :P

    There may also be a third excuse I'm hiding too!
    I agree: those two 1DX model samples from their website might or might not be to an individual's taste for skin hues (not to my taste at all) but the details are weird: sort of like they cranked up NR and sharpening at the same time so it looks plastic. Quite nasty in fact, though lots of people seem to be impressed...

  16. #166
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Shoot a baby at two weeks old and tell me if you want "accurate" or "pleasing" skin tones.

    [/SIZE]
    I'm glad you said that, almost two years ago, my son was born, I had both cameras, the D700 and the 5D2. Pleasing is a choice, something i can adjust to, and CaptureOne and LR and the like can certainly help with that. While my 5D2 gave me something more accurate, the D700 was still too yellow and too much saturation out of camera in my opinion, both of which I could adjust, but certainly to my own taste, looking at both cameras, I certainly prefer the RAW files I was getting from the 5D2.

    Either way you can get close to what you need with software, it's the amount of tweaking on a personal level. I've been shooting pictures of my son almost every day to every other day and so on for the first half year, and certainly at least every week now! So if what I see, is in fact a matter of taste, I certainly agree taste wins every time

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I agree: those two 1DX model samples from their website might or might not be to an individual's taste for skin hues (not to my taste at all) but the details are weird: sort of like they cranked up NR and sharpening at the same time so it looks plastic. Quite nasty in fact, though lots of people seem to be impressed...
    Most people's points of reference for quality files are not the same as yours and I's :-).

  18. #168
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Doug

    I know this will sound funny, but maybe as soon as Capture One Pro will support the D800E this will be the day when many people will take this camera for serious. Hard decision for Phase One. If they support it they will sell more software and less backs. If they will not support it the users may just go to Lightroom or Aperture and Phase may even loose the software customers, maybe a bit less back users...........
    This is a classic dilemma.......

    Proposal for Phase one: sell an OEM Version of Capture One that only runs for Nikon cameras to Nikon and have them send NX where it belongs !
    With this money build a CMOS Back.......

    Regards
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Doug, I know this will sound funny, but maybe as soon as Capture One Pro will support the D800E this will be the day when many people will take this camera for serious. Hard decision for Phase One. If they support it they will sell more software and less backs. If they will not support it the users may just go to Lightroom or Aperture and Phase may even loose the software customers, maybe a bit less back users...........
    As I've said many times with previous similar-resolution back vs. dSLRs... resolution is the easiest spec to advertise but it's usually the 3rd or 4th reason down the list of why customers choose a digital back. Other reasons may include Color rendition, flash sync speed, built-in flash transmitter, faster and more robust tethered capture, WLF, better vertical ergonomics, post processing flexibility, native 4:3 capture, native 1:1 capture, compatibility with a beloved "older" body (e.g. hassy 500 / contax / RZ), ability to use on a tech camera, ability to use on a view camera, ability to use one sensor on multiple SLR bodies (e.g. RZ and DF) quality/look of MF lenses, lack of AA filter, touch screen iPhone quality LCD, tonal smoothness, dynamic range, reliability (e.g. no moving parts), good upgrade offers from their existing backs, low native ISO, tilts and shifts based on the body (tech camera) rather than the lens, slower working speed (a positive for many who tire of machine gunning), differentiation from competition (not the client's son's camera). And so on.

    I don't foresee any meaningful impact on digital back sales based on the release of the D800e. Of that list it improves somewhat on resolution (though it still pales to an 80mp back) and lack of AA filter. But otherwise is just a D700 with more resolution (if/when the lenses used can take advantage of it). Which is to say a really sweet/awesome dSLR that will be a great choice for many photographers --- but mostly the same photographers who would have been using a D700.

    Literally EVERY new dSLR I've ever seen come out has raised the same question: is this now a replacement for medium format? I think it must be because all the manufacturers do such a good job of advertising resolution as spec'd in megapixels of the sensor that the natural thing to do is compare cameras based on the number of mp rather than application, cost, ergonomics, overall file quality, etc. Fact is I can take a Phase One H25 or Leaf Valeo from 2003 and it will still (at base ISO for short exposures) produce a more desirable file than every dSLR I've shot. Could that change when I shoot a D800e? It's not impossible and I'll wait and see (I don't say anything I can't test), but I wouldn't hold my breath just because they added a reverse AA filter and increased the pixel count.

    I can't speak for Phase One's engineers but Capture One Pro has supported every major Nikon and Canon camera for many years. I don't see that changing.

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    Last edited by dougpeterson; 10th February 2012 at 14:08.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    So the question is ...

    with Nikon's D800 around the corner and hence the promise of a 36MPX photographic system that shoots at 4fps, has live view, an advanced autofocus system and a huge screen paired with great battery life and uncompressed HDMI output ...

    at a price point lower than a new MFD optic ...

    do you consider consolidating your gear and selling off your MFD kit?
    ABSOLUTELY NOT.
    I may buy a new FF or APS-C camera with around 16-18MP, great high ISO performance and fast autofocus/face detection for handheld shooting at available light but I have no reason to believe that the D800 will consistently produce images comparable to those coming out of my S2, not only in terms of "image quality" in the technical sense, but also in terms of the overall "look". But for sure the D800 looks like a nice camera that will make a lot of people happy (once they realize that having MF-like resolution requires MF-like shooting technique...).

  21. #171
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Doug

    I don´t want to argue with you about the advantages that you have offered (we could), just one thing - the H25 or the leaf Valeo may probably be a bit misplaced to compare with any new DSLR. Until you have set them up with a firewire cable and a notebook or a stationary computer, controlled sharpness and exposure,and have taken your shot, the motiv you wanted to photograph has probably disappeared on the horizon together with the DSLR photographer........

    I also own an H20. It has a nice image quality, but I don´t use it anymore.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Remember first and foremost that niche markets that have low overall market share do NOT function the same as the mainstream market.

    If anything I actually think the release of the D800 will increase sales (yes I'm dead serious) of digital backs because:
    1) when anyone and their brother can have "36mp" on the cheap there is more motivation to look into options beyond that (regardless of whether resolution is the most important thing or whether most D800 shooters end up capturing 36mp of details given their lenses/techniques)
    2) Canon/Sony shooters may get jealous (rightly or wrongly) and be motivated to switch systems, and every time a photographer mentally accepts they are ready to switch systems there is an opportunity for them to consider something entirely new (the largest hinderance to sales in cameras, IMO, is not competitive product but momentum)
    3) Many shooters assume they have no use for more resolution than their current 20ish mp dSLR. Many are right (e.g. shooting for the web, school headshots, etc), but many are wrong and will change their mind when they see how great it is to make large prints. I still remember when I thought an 11x14 was a "big print" and "all I'd ever want to do". Now I'm pissed when I get a great shot and don't have enough detail to make a fantastic 40x60. I also used to think that my 11x14 prints were "detailed" and "couldn't get any better".
    4) Every time a new camera is out on the horizon there is an assumption by many photographers that the next announcement will solve all their problems and they wait for that new camera. i.e. "I'm not getting the quality I want out of my D700 but if I just wait for the D800 I know it will be everything I'm hoping for". For some this will end up being true, but for many it will not. Take the pool of those that have been waiting for a D800 (or 5DIII etc). If 80% of them find it matches their wildest dreams (which I think is incredibly optimistic based on prior experience with "the next big thing"s of the past) that's still 20% that have been waiting (and thereby postponing consideration of any other solution) that will be floating in the market. If those 20% were waiting because of image quality (and not, e.g. for 4k video capture or 3D or autofocus improvements) then medium format may well end up on their search for what to do instead.

  23. #173
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Doug

    as you and I know the camera is not making the image. Unfortunately still several people believe this to be the case. The working Pros are probably mostly immune to that idea because they learn every day that only their craft and imagination makes an image happen.
    I think you are right with the definition of a niche market. But also the niche market runs into technical limitations after a while when the niche does not keep its uniqueness. It may well be that this D800E is not the final answer for the people who look for an alternative. But the 5D MK3 may be even closer or the Sony XX may be even better suited for this.
    MF with CCD´s is hitting a wall right now, 80 Mpix is probably the border.
    With real sensitivities more closer to 200 Asa instead of the proclaimed 800 asa you will need full sunlight to be able to shoot them out of hand reliably without shaking the image. A Nikon D800E will have true 800 or 1600asa usable for out of hand shots, because of the smaller format you can also use shorter focal lenght lenses with wider apertures. It´s all about usability. The image quality is probably catching up later, whereas I think with proper Rawfile treatment the difference is VERY small.
    I am speaking to many people who use the actual latest generation of backs. It´s always the same: they like them, but after some talk you will hear the same story again and again: No longterm exposures, lack of sensitivity (only perfect low asa performance) and lack of special lenses, may it be long teles, superwides. This is essential and needs to be solved.

    Otherwise it will become more and more difficult.
    Of course you are right- if someone wants to buy a camera to impress his friends it doesn´t sound good if this was only 3000 $ instead of 40000 $.
    Maybe these are many more potential customers than those who "just" want to photograph. I wish you are right and the market will thrive.

    But I fear that´s not the case.

    regards
    Stefan
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  24. #174
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    {I can't speak for Phase One's engineers but Capture One Pro has supported every major Nikon and Canon camera for many years. I don't see that changing.}

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Doug

    I thought your point about the skin tones targets that Kodak in particular used to use for film was particularly relevant . With film you picked the type of film that worked best for the situation . You don t have to convince me that larger sensors like larger film formats excel at those subtle tone separations that make renderings look great . This of course impacts ones perception of color but I believe its a different point .

    Rather I was focusing in on a common statement ..that Nikon files render skin tones slightly yellow and are difficult to calibrate to a more pleasing (if not necessarily more accurate skin tone). You went on to point out how capture one has a real focus on skin tones and plenty of user control to get it where you feel its pleasing. Then you indicated that Capture One has handled nikon and canon files .

    From those statements it would appear that if I had .NEF files and would just learn to use C1 then I could produce skin tones that would be considered pretty decent . I don t think you said this and I am looking for the missing set of facts .

  25. #175
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    With real sensitivities more closer to 200 Asa instead of the proclaimed 800 asa you will need full sunlight to be able to shoot them out of hand reliably without shaking the image. A Nikon D800E will have true 800 or 1600asa usable for out of hand shots, because of the smaller format you can also use shorter focal lenght lenses with wider apertures. It´s all about usability. The image quality is probably catching up later, whereas I think with proper Rawfile treatment the difference is VERY small.
    ??? I really don't understand this. My Pentax 645D, a MFD camera, has very good ISOs and they are real upto 1600. I can handhold as easily as any camera I have used and get sharp images. I don't really think I will need a lens wider than 25mm (19mm on 35mm) but 25mm is short. I have never felt any really limitation with apertures in medium format.

  26. #176
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    >>>>> "??? I really don't understand this. My Pentax 645D, a MFD camera, has very good ISOs and they are real upto 1600. I can handhold as easily as any camera I have used and get sharp images. I don't really think I will need a lens wider than 25mm (19mm on 35mm) but 25mm is short. I have never felt any really limitation with apertures in medium format" <<<<<

    +1! I agree with this statement (in regards to the 645D) with a few exceptions and of course some precautions with regards to hand holding and selection of aperture with use of certain lenses in order to extract the most potential from each file.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 11th February 2012 at 07:40.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    I'm late to the game and can't be bothered reading all the comments above but I'll throw in my personal opinion anyway...

    I'm probably the perfect person for the D800E. I'm currently undertaking an artist residency in Asia and have been shooting a Mamiya 7 system and some 4x5" sheet film. Now, as much as I love film and the way the big negs of these systems look, it's just a pain in the a## in terms of time and money being so far away from home and having to try communicate with and rely on labs to do a key part of the process for me. If I were at home, things would be different because I have a setup where I can be self sufficient and can do things in my own time.

    Now, when I heard about the D800E announcement, I thought to myself it is time for me to give up on medium format film. At home I shoot 4x5" for 99% of my work (documentary and fine art) and I can't see that changing any time soon. I'm addicted to the process and quality that can be pulled out of the massive neg. But for times like those I'm in now, where I need to work faster and free up valuable shooting time, a 36mpx DSLR *might* be just the ticket. I know depth will render differently, blah blah blah, but moving to the smaller digital format (MFD is unfortunately out of my budget by a long margin) and complimenting my 4x5" kit with a D800E and a couple of PC-E lenses to replicate my preferred focal lengths, I might get the best of both worlds. I'm already frustrated with not having movements on my Mamiya 7, despite the lenses being the best I've ever used. The clincher is perhaps that I had a local lab where I am scan and print four 6x7cm negatives for me at 1.1x1.4m. They looked horrible in comparison to what I'd be able to achieve myself at home using a Nikon 9000 scanner. They were using an X5, so I don't know what the problem was. Anyway, case in point, if I was shooting digitally I'd know exactly how to pull the best out of my RAW files and get them how I want them.

    Anyway, this has been a long ramble, but I just really wanted to say that we live in technologically exciting times. Despite the appeal of the D800E I still lust after a H4D-40 / Phase 1Q140. Choices, choices...

  28. #178
    Senior Member aztwang's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Well I have read all the posts and most of ya'll make some sense. I shoot for a living, am a Nikon shooter, cover mostly sports and events and have a private based studio, shoot with a couple of D3S's and have just about all of Nikons fast glass. Last year I almost bought a Phase 645 with a 40mp back and three Schneider lenses for starts, but I could not justify the purchase. I think if my studio were to really take off, I could justify the switch or even have both products but sports and photojournalism work is a large part of what I do.
    That being said, I think the D800e, if IQ follows thru, will be a great add for someone such as myself for the studio. I can keep and USE all my current glass. One thing that was a negative for me after to talking to Guy last year was, for me, the auto focus is not the fastest/accurate in certain instances and I was not sure if I could use the Phase anywhere other than the studio and landscapes. I think Nikons fast A/F will be great for the studio but more so as an outdoor portrait and a runway/fashion application.
    I also believe in the long run, the D800e will open doors for MF manufactures. I can imagine DSLR owners eyes opening up with disbelief and after really seeing what a 36MP image looks like and what one can do with that many MP's... what happens next????? GAS... We want the next bigger and best thing.... Enter Phase, Leica, Mamiya...etc.
    The price point of where the D800 comes in at is pretty crazy. But this isn't Nikons first rodeo. Nikon has a plan. I do think as another member stated that Nikon's price point will launch lens sales like they've never seen before to take advantage of 36MP
    I dont believe current MF owners are going to jump ship. MF is a religion. The D800 will be a great addition to the MF owners bag as it will be to mine.

  29. #179
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Shashin

    I am talking about the IQ180. Leafs Aptus 12 seems to do better (albeit the same chip !). But the 5.2 micron pixel are bleeding edge and need compromising. And I haven´t even spoken about image stabilization.
    There are very good ones for DSLR´s but there are none for MF. The best implementations of it gain 4 stops. So all the predictions of the D800E to have the same shaking problems as MF are nonsense, at least when you use stabilized lenses.

    Regards
    Stefan
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  30. #180
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    IMHO, it is a bit more useful to discuss the diffraction limits and how these dense sensors can be used (in a separate thread) with actual examples than beating this dead horse.

  31. #181
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    One of the strengths of the S system is the brilliance of the lenses. Expensive yes, but you get what you pay for ... fantastic image rendering ... especially wide open. I go into each situation knowing that they've been designed with regard to the medium. As a result, I only worry about the limits of hand-holding in situations where I would need to utilize something with very high ISO limits.


    Kurt

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Doug

    as you and I know the camera is not making the image. Unfortunately still several people believe this to be the case. The working Pros are probably mostly immune to that idea because they learn every day that only their craft and imagination makes an image happen.
    I think you are right with the definition of a niche market. But also the niche market runs into technical limitations after a while when the niche does not keep its uniqueness. It may well be that this D800E is not the final answer for the people who look for an alternative. But the 5D MK3 may be even closer or the Sony XX may be even better suited for this.
    MF with CCD´s is hitting a wall right now, 80 Mpix is probably the border.
    With real sensitivities more closer to 200 Asa instead of the proclaimed 800 asa you will need full sunlight to be able to shoot them out of hand reliably without shaking the image. A Nikon D800E will have true 800 or 1600asa usable for out of hand shots, because of the smaller format you can also use shorter focal lenght lenses with wider apertures. It´s all about usability. The image quality is probably catching up later, whereas I think with proper Rawfile treatment the difference is VERY small.
    I am speaking to many people who use the actual latest generation of backs. It´s always the same: they like them, but after some talk you will hear the same story again and again: No longterm exposures, lack of sensitivity (only perfect low asa performance) and lack of special lenses, may it be long teles, superwides. This is essential and needs to be solved.

    Otherwise it will become more and more difficult.
    Of course you are right- if someone wants to buy a camera to impress his friends it doesn´t sound good if this was only 3000 $ instead of 40000 $.
    Maybe these are many more potential customers than those who "just" want to photograph. I wish you are right and the market will thrive.

    But I fear that´s not the case.

    regards
    Stefan
    Stefan, I won't rehash the "size matters" idea. If you don't get it, or choose to ignore it, more discussion won't help

    You keep describing the 35mm experience as the competing aspect verses MFD, as if everyone wanted or needed that experience, and there is no other. This argument is as old as the first Leica from the beginning of the last century.

    Personally, I don't go out with a MFD to see how fast I can get over the next horizon like it was some race to fill the CF card faster than the next guy.

    Besides, counter to most on this forum, many (if not most) MFDs are used at ISO 50/100 on a studio stand tethered to a pair of large monitors with 10,000w/s+ of highly controllable light to work with.

    Yet, MFD has evolved to allow location work with on board card-capture, accurate AF, higher available ISOs, plus continued access to technical cameras and optics that no Nikon/Canon/Sony lens will ever equal.

    If 80 meg is the "Wall", then Hasselblad didn't get that news. Maybe a 200 meg RAW file is the wall, since that already exists. Doesn't matter what technology was used to reach that final meg count, or it's limited application ... it is just one of the niche utilizations of MFD available, one that uses technological innovation to solve specific photographic problems or needs. That is what niche means ... to be specific, in marketing it means: "A focused, targetable part of the market" ...not everyone, and his camera toting uncle Bob.

    Unfortunately, your points of comparisons are peppered with loaded bias and exaggerations which runs directly counter to experiences of actual users of certain MFD systems. Short changing actual accomplishments on one hand and puffing up others on the other hand, just erodes credibility IMHO.

    Fact is, I've shot a H4D/40 available light @ ISO 1600, with a short lens, at very low hand-held shutter speeds. Hasselblad allows this by letting me set a ms mirror delay, and the leaf-shutter lenses virtually eliminates shutter vibration, not to mention how camera mass is at play. 16 bit capture helps keep the color fidelity and subtile separation, as opposed to the color shift and loss of subtlety of many higher meg 35mm cameras when shooting at this ISO level. My H4D/40 was better at this than the D3X I used, and just as good or slightly better than the Sony A900 I now use ... only the H4D file was much larger, required less enlargement to final size, and easier to work on in post. Not to say, I run out and shoot that sort of thing all the time, but I could or can, and that's the point.

    See example "proof" below that I've posted before (a simple, walk-about snap-shot while on vacation): H4D/40 and HCD35-90 ... ISO 1600, f/4, 1/25 shutter, handheld @ eye-level, no support, (no wall, post, monopod, tripod). Real life shot, as opposed to web rhetoric and theoretical limitations based on lack of skill and the lowest common denominator.

    Select your gear to fit you, keep it long enough to learn how to use it, and get on with making photographs your way, not all the "The sky is falling" technophile's ideas of how to make photographs based on ever more "do it for you" substitutions for human talent, skill, and ... dare I say it ... practice actually making photos, as opposed to talking about making photos.

    My advice is ... back to work everyone ... this horse is dead ... beaten into fertilizer to grow grass that's eaten by more horses who were then beaten to death again ... and so on ...and so on

    No offense meant to horse lovers

    -Marc
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  33. #183
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    I switched to MF last year. My own reaction to the d800 is curious even to myself: Kind of apathetic.

    When I was shooting 35mm I was all wrapped up in the new camera craze. 1ds this d3x that 5dII this... Should I switch platforms cuz of this new camera? Will I get better results with that new lens? I notice most of the posts about "death of MF" are from 35mm format shooters. I believe it is because like I used to be, they are wrapped up in the new camera craze.

    Not any more. I get more excited about LR4 or C1 upgrades now than a new camera announcement. Perhaps it has to do with the Theory of Constraints. With my current gear I am my own constraint to image quality, both aesthetically and technically; my gear is not the constraint.

    That's a very fun place to be actually.

    Dave
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  34. #184
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    HeadIng home today from the workshop. We had 13 of 14 folks shooting MF all week. They loved it. So this death talk is pretty funny to read as this stuff when grown men are calling home to there wives letting them know they are buying there own Valentines present this time. Also maybe 3 folks getting the Nikon too but it is to compliment our MF systems. This either or stuff in reality does not exist. I will have both myself and I added to my MF kit myself. No 35mm on the planet will ever replace the absolute best gear on the planet. People with money or limited amounts want to shoot the best they can get in there hands PERIOD. Nothing is going to change that fact and I am a wittness to it everyday. It's also includes me. What I read comes down to a money debate more than anything. People will buy whatever suites them regardless of the amount, photography is actually a cheap hobby compared to many. I wish these debates would leave the costs out of the equation when folks compare but we all know that's impossible.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Now on the same token MF can't replace 35mm in absolute terms either so we look for the best image machine we can get given our needs and budget. It's the classic I want this can only afford that. That's life folks
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  36. #186
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Stefan, I won't rehash the "size matters" idea. If you don't get it, or choose to ignore it, more discussion won't help

    You keep describing the 35mm experience as the competing aspect verses MFD, as if everyone wanted or needed that experience, and there is no other. This argument is as old as the first Leica from the beginning of the last century.

    Personally, I don't go out with a MFD to see how fast I can get over the next horizon like it was some race to fill the CF card faster than the next guy.

    Besides, counter to most on this forum, many (if not most) MFDs are used at ISO 50/100 on a studio stand tethered to a pair of large monitors with 10,000w/s+ of highly controllable light to work with.

    Yet, MFD has evolved to allow location work with on board card-capture, accurate AF, higher available ISOs, plus continued access to technical cameras and optics that no Nikon/Canon/Sony lens will ever equal.

    If 80 meg is the "Wall", then Hasselblad didn't get that news. Maybe a 200 meg RAW file is the wall, since that already exists. Doesn't matter what technology was used to reach that final meg count, or it's limited application ... it is just one of the niche utilizations of MFD available, one that uses technological innovation to solve specific photographic problems or needs. That is what niche means ... to be specific, in marketing it means: "A focused, targetable part of the market" ...not everyone, and his camera toting uncle Bob.

    Unfortunately, your points of comparisons are peppered with loaded bias and exaggerations which runs directly counter to experiences of actual users of certain MFD systems. Short changing actual accomplishments on one hand and puffing up others on the other hand, just erodes credibility IMHO.

    Fact is, I've shot a H4D/40 available light @ ISO 1600, with a short lens, at very low hand-held shutter speeds. Hasselblad allows this by letting me set a ms mirror delay, and the leaf-shutter lenses virtually eliminates shutter vibration, not to mention how camera mass is at play. 16 bit capture helps keep the color fidelity and subtile separation, as opposed to the color shift and loss of subtlety of many higher meg 35mm cameras when shooting at this ISO level. My H4D/40 was better at this than the D3X I used, and just as good or slightly better than the Sony A900 I now use ... only the H4D file was much larger, required less enlargement to final size, and easier to work on in post. Not to say, I run out and shoot that sort of thing all the time, but I could or can, and that's the point.

    See example "proof" below that I've posted before (a simple, walk-about snap-shot while on vacation): H4D/40 and HCD35-90 ... ISO 1600, f/4, 1/25 shutter, handheld @ eye-level, no support, (no wall, post, monopod, tripod). Real life shot, as opposed to web rhetoric and theoretical limitations based on lack of skill and the lowest common denominator.

    Select your gear to fit you, keep it long enough to learn how to use it, and get on with making photographs your way, not all the "The sky is falling" technophile's ideas of how to make photographs based on ever more "do it for you" substitutions for human talent, skill, and ... dare I say it ... practice actually making photos, as opposed to talking about making photos.

    My advice is ... back to work everyone ... this horse is dead ... beaten into fertilizer to grow grass that's eaten by more horses who were then beaten to death again ... and so on ...and so on

    No offense meant to horse lovers

    -Marc
    Great shot there, Marc

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  37. #187
    Member David Duffin's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    ..... I get more excited about LR4 or C1 upgrades now than a new camera announcement. Perhaps it has to do with the Theory of Constraints. With my current gear I am my own constraint to image quality, both aesthetically and technically; my gear is not the constraint.

    That's a very fun place to be actually.

    Dave
    Good food for thought, David. And I couldn't have said it better. With great equipment like you and I both have there's a wonderful feeling of confidence in the gear being able to deliver the goods. New DSLR announcements become interesting but personally irrelevant, whereas processing upgrades become a more important key to pushing the envelope.

  38. #188
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Hi Marc

    I think you are right- this discussion doesn´t make any sense. And Doug is probably right, if all the people argue like this, the market for Medium Format will grow.
    I really wish it would be like this.

    Greetings from Lindenberg
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  39. #189
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Shashin

    I am talking about the IQ180. Leafs Aptus 12 seems to do better (albeit the same chip !). But the 5.2 micron pixel are bleeding edge and need compromising. And I haven´t even spoken about image stabilization.
    There are very good ones for DSLR´s but there are none for MF. The best implementations of it gain 4 stops. So all the predictions of the D800E to have the same shaking problems as MF are nonsense, at least when you use stabilized lenses.

    Regards
    Stefan
    There are already larger chips being developed for scientific imaging, so I don't see any limit.

    I have handheld cameras all my life all the way up to 4x5, there is no reason you cannot handhold an IQ180. You do not need image stabilization. There is no reason MF cannot use IS--development in these cameras has not stopped. The fact that I can handhold a Pentax 645D shows you can hold a D800 stabilized lenses or not.

    This is how these argument goes. Someone chooses one camera model and than makes blanket statement for the whole class. Someone said why do you want to us MF when you only have one or three AF areas; my camera has 11. But high-end camera for the most part, and there are exceptions, have been simpler to those pitched to the enthusiast. There are only three things you need to control on a camera, exposure, focus, and framing. With all the advances in technology, there really has been no change in the fact that very skilled photographers will do better with less--I am not really sad Pentax did not include scene selection exposure modes on the 645D and I have done most of my photography with manual cameras.

    Photography as we use it here is an aesthetic discipline. There are really only two criteria that are important: what qualities are a particular system going to impart and what compromises or limitations is that going to have. Format size matters to both of those.

    BTW, does the D800 have pixel shifting technology, binning, or tracking AF on a specified object? All technologies in MFD.

  40. #190
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    BTW, does the D800 have pixel shifting technology, binning, or tracking AF on a specified object? All technologies in MFD.
    My old F5 from 1996 has focus tracking - that's not exactly something new.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  41. #191
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    My old F5 from 1996 has focus tracking - that's not exactly something new.
    None of it is new. But I believe that Hasselblad's focus system is simply not focus tracking within a specific AF area (z), but follows the object laterally as well (x, y). My point was that MFD is not exactly in the dark ages, but has applied technology in the cameras that is not really widely used in smaller DSLRs.

  42. #192
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Duffin View Post
    whereas processing upgrades become a more important key to pushing the envelope.
    For me personally never has a truer word been said!
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  43. #193
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    The argument about the D800e has evolved, but it still remains to be seen what the final production model will shoot like. For those who shoot both formats, this gives us more options with more soon to come in the Sony A99. MFD can't do it all, and 35mm can't either, but with those two cameras a lot can be accomplished. Pixel binning in MFD, is something I wouldn't use either, but many find it useful. Just choose your camera and shoot! Fotografz once said in a post the Sony A900 is a game changer...for 35mm, so why can't we have the same ideas as it relates to the D800e? Many 4x5 photographers would never use free transform to fix key-stoning or convergence effects in their photographs, just because they can, so why are MFD users (me included) having this argument about a 36MP 35mm FF camera?
    Could it be the investment?
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 11th February 2012 at 12:10.
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  44. #194
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Why but a MFD camera for that kind of $, only to have it shoot in the MP range of a 35mm FF?
    Because there is more to image quality than pixels--size matters. That is why I shot 400 speed film in medium-format cameras for documentary work. That is why I went to MFD for documentary work. If I could bin the 645D sensor, there are situations where I would do it.

    I don't think this topic has evolved at all as all people can do is count pixels.

    On the other hand, I doubt anyone is saying anything but the D800 is going to be a fine camera. But Tech Pan did not turn 35mm film cameras into 4x5s. A 12MP 35mm camera is not an Olympus E-P1.

  45. #195
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Size does matter... mostly in end use results, and that's the beauty of this new D800e. The investment is so little many can do both! So to answer the original question...no, I won't sell my MFD, but i'll consider the D800e or Sony A99, to add to the creative tools selection in my camera palette to increase my range and variety. The S2 is going to have to wait.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    No, I won't sell my humble HB 503CWD with the CFV-16II back to buy a Nikon D800 (not even the E version)....that's an apples vs carrots comparison, in my mind.

    I have been tempted to sell off much of my photo gear and buy a Leica S2 or HB H4D-40....but sell off anything to buy a D800?....not me.

    Gary
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    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    None of it is new. But I believe that Hasselblad's focus system is simply not focus tracking within a specific AF area (z), but follows the object laterally as well (x, y). My point was that MFD is not exactly in the dark ages, but has applied technology in the cameras that is not really widely used in smaller DSLRs.
    Yep D2x did that. D700 does that. I think F5 had object tracking too. This video is of focus tracking a bullet train using a D4. D800 is similar.

    CP+ 2012 NIKON D4 3D Tracking! | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

    Nobody said Hasselblad is in the dark ages (although they certainly were until the merge with Imacon - A good friend of mine was a board member back then and has some interesting stories about the complete lack of forward thinking in the company some ten years ago) but when it comes to focus tracking, Nikon and Canon have been ahead for a long time.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Yep D2x did that. D700 does that. I think F5 had object tracking too. This video is of focus tracking a bullet train using a D4. D800 is similar.

    CP+ 2012 NIKON D4 3D Tracking! | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

    Nobody said Hasselblad is in the dark ages (although they certainly were until the merge with Imacon - A good friend of mine was a board member back then and has some interesting stories about the complete lack of forward thinking in the company some ten years ago) but when it comes to focus tracking, Nikon and Canon have been ahead for a long time.

    Lars, I was really replying to Stephan's comment that somehow MFD is not really pushing technology beyond simply having lots of pixels and being big. Tracking has been around for some time. Perhaps I should have said it can even be found in MFD.

    Personally, I think these internet conversation could be a lot clearer if the posters would submit an abstract a month in advance before leaving a detailed post with a works cited section. Unfortunately, we have to leave these short posts where some of the information is implied in relation to a context in another post.

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    Meet Shirley

    This is Shirley, Kodak's test target from the 70's.

    As to the topic at hand, as a requirement I find that I need two systems to do my work in digital, DSLR and MFD. I need and use them both.

    To do my work with film I also needed a large format sheet film 4x5 camera from time to time in addition to 35mm SLR and Medium format film cameras.

    I actually have less gear now, it's all good.

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    Re: POLL: Will you sell your MFD gear if the D800 holds good on its promise?

    I was at the workshop that Guy mentioned.

    There were indeed MANY backs there, and this was their niche .... fine art landscape with an IQ180 is simply stunning. Due the the physics of wide angle lenses and DOF/DOV, I really don't understand how a D800 or even a D900 with twice the mega pixels would influence my decision about the lust for a technical camera to shoot in that niche.

    At the same time, I shoot sports, as did some other folks at that work shop, and many, if not most had some variety of canikon sitting at home in the closet with some very nice pro level glass. Simple the wrong horse for this course.

    That said, one day, a B2 and it's escort passed over head. While most were marveling looking up, I was rushing to my camera bag, pulling out a lowly G3 with a 100-300 and then getting the photo. As near as I know, I was the only one at the workshop to get that shot. So in this very limited niche, the Pany G3 smoked the IQ180 ..... does that mean I should give up on MFDB?
    ( will post the image soon )

    No matter how you slice it, a generalist will never beat a specialist when looking at a specialty! You may get close, and be willing to make compromises, but in their niche, MFDB rules. Surly challenged, and defiantly the laws of diminishing marginal returns hold, but to get the absolute best fine art images, ( assuming the muse is equal for all ) MFDB will still be required.

    I say that with a certainty that ignores some truly disruptive technology yet to be invented. A new 3D live-viewing immersion display will sway me, but as long as we are putting 3D images on 2D displays, MFDB is my choice for fine art work, landscape or studio.

    Dave

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