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MF realities and limitations

J

jmvdigital

Guest
I'm in a bit of a quandary. I have recently acquired a Canon 1DsIII, and it just hasn't been cutting it for me. I've had some problems with the AF, and several problems with lenses not being up to snuff. I'm tired of the whole "your copy is soft, try another one" crap shoot with Canon's quality. I don't see Canon being a realistic long term option, as their 1DsIV-V with 30+ mp will not have the lens resolution available. My 1DsIII already pushes my L glass.

So here I am, staring down the barrel of a MFDB. I want a reality check. My main reasons for upgrading would be to increase overall image quality, better lens quality over Canon, and higher pixel counts for large printing. Convenience and durability would obviously take a hit with MFDB, but it is all about the image after all.

I do not shoot in a studio, and don't ever use extra lighting (i.e., flash sync of zero importance); 100% available light. I shoot a lot of urban stuff, landscape, macro, abandoned buildings, etc. High frame rates and super fast AF is not important to me. However, my camera needs to be reasonably durable, as I often shoot on hikes, in the mountains, on dirt roads.. generally a walk-around type of shooter, not a carry around mountains of equipment and spend 30 mins. setting up a shot. It would be my main, do-it-all camera.

Can MF handle this style of shooting?

My current contenders are the Sinar Hy6 65, Phamiya w/ P30+, or the H3DII-31.

Thanks for any input and help. I've been in touch with Chris at Capture Integration, and he's been helpful as well.

-Justin

PS: My first post here.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Justin welcome to the forum. Bottom line you need a MF camera. It will do all that you ask and than some. I own a Phase One body and P25 Plus. I do love it and it is my main squeeze. pricing right now is good on all three systems. Obviously i lean towards the Phase systems because i like the high shutter speeds and focal plane shutters. The Sinar and Hassy limits are 1/800 shutter speed and leaf lenses . If your a outside guy than you want the Phase stuff since you can shoot wide open for effect and such. On the leaf shutter systems you will have to stop down or use ND filters if you want to shoot wide open. Right there are you most basic considerations. Than take it from there. Also all three of these backs have the same sensor and will perform pretty much the same . Difference will be functions and software. Whats your favorite software that you like is a consideration . Phase is mainly C1 , Hassy is Phocus and Sinar has there own forget the name , sorry.

Now delve into the threads and do some research on all of them and we are also here to help answer any questions. We have experts here on all the systems, so the data you will gather here will be spot on.
 
A

andershald

Guest
Hi Justin.

Welcome to the forum. I am relatively new here too and I am in the same situation as you, about to pull the trigger on a MFDB, for more or less the same reasons as you. I have been a 1DSII shooter for at few years and I long for better image quality and better optics, but also to differentiate myself from the competition. The last 5 years so many different photographers have been shooting their images using the same camera body, the same 3-4 lenses and the same software, no wonder why many photographers seem to have lost their style, to some extend.

I also shoot location and a lot of available light stuff...but I don't hike (unless I can avoid it).

I completely agree with your sentiments on the Canon quality, I am very fed up of my repeated trips to Canon for 'focus calibration'.

I tested a couple of systems and you can read in detail some of my findings in the very long thread "Considering the H3DII-31" which is what I was considering first. In regards to your needs for convenience, I think it will be a step down from the Canon, nothing beats a DSLR for convenience, as for durability, I don't think durability or ruggedness is a problem with most of these systems. The ones I have tried (Contax, Hasselblad H and Phamiya) are all proffesional grade cameras, buildt as workhorses for pros and none of them feel particularly flimsy. I am happy with the build quality of all of them.

I found that actually testing the various systems is really a must, you cannot deduct anything about an actual shooting experience from any amount of spec sheets and other peoples experiences related through posts in groups like this. It is really really important to try before you buy. But I must say that this site in particular is excellent because the group of photographers posting here are very knowledgable and willing to share their wealth of experiences.

Good luck in choosing a system.

Best regards,
Anders
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Justin

Let me add my welcome to the forum as well.

My history is shooting Canon 1DsII for landscape and knowing/feeling that something has to or was better thus I moved into the great world of medium format and never looked back.

I currently use a Phase P30+ digital back on a Phase One 645 body and have been getting great results with my landscape. However it seems I want more (my wife says I'll never be completely satisfied which I have to agree) and I'm now looking towards a technical camera with better lens and a move up to a P45+. Michael Reichmann, an artist I respect greatly wrote about the inability of certain lens to meet the challenges of digital format; he also wrote about what he called "In Search of Ultimate Image Quality" which I strongly recommend reading. Bottom line is that if I were in the same category as Michael I too would consider the Linhof M 679cs for my landscape images; however (there's that word again) since I'm not, I'm currently considering a Cambo and a P45+ a system that is close and uses similar lens.

Guy is right on the money regarding researching the threads on this forum as much has been discussed, and will continue to be discussed about this very same subject.

Getting on my soap box :angel:- Just my opinion however I truly believe that medium format is much better suited for serious landscape work only topped by large format.

Best of luck

don

I see that Anders added a reply just as I was about to which showed me that I missed a critical point - testing the equipment whenever possible; very good point Anders.:salute:
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
My main reasons for upgrading would be to increase overall image quality, better lens quality over Canon, and higher pixel counts for large printing. Convenience and durability would obviously take a hit with MFDB, but it is all about the image after all.
SNIP
Can MF handle this style of shooting?
Yes it will, and in fact that is what MF excels at. There is no DSLR yet that can even get close to the net image quality of a 2-generation-old 22MP digital back. The DSLR will have better AF, faster frame rates and higher ISO performance, but given what you stated, it sounds like you don't need any of that.

I would add one comment on the cameras you have listed as possibles. For the same or less money, you could get P25 or even P45 non-plus, an Aptus 22 or 75 non-S, a Mamiya ZD back, or a Hassy HD39 non-II. All of these are durable backs, and have larger sensors than the P30/A65/H31 backs do, and as such may be worth you considering. However, ANY of the backs mentioned will deliver superior image quality to the best DSLR.

Welcome to the forum!
 

LJL

New member
Justin,
Welcome to the forum. You will find a ton of very good and straight-shooter info here, so as Guy and others suggest, pull up a chair and beverages for a long reading session or two ;-)

I am in the same quandary you are describing. I have been shooting with a 1DsMkII since its release. I did not move up to the 1DsMkIII for many of the reasons you mention, so I keep making the 1DsMkII work more as I try to extract whatever I can from it. I will move to MF, but still not sure if it will be one of the systems mentioned, or waiting to see what the newly announced Leica S2 can deliver. The lenses promise to be interesting if not outstanding. The S2 also will accommodate your needs for both leaf and focal plane shutters, plus it is built more like a DSLR from the looks and descriptions. That may be attractive or not, but being smaller, more weather sealed, and maybe lighter, it might better suit needs you describe. Just have to wait and see on delivery, service, support, and most importantly, image quality. (I worry more about the first three than the last one.)

From what you are describing, the Phase One 645 (Mamiya AFDIII) sounds like it could meet most of your present and future needs. I keep looking at it myself. I do like the other offerings from Sinar and Hasselblad, but there are things that are going to be more challenging....only leaf shutters that do max out at 1/500 or 1/1000 for Sinar stuff (PQ and PQS lenses respectively), or 1/800 for Hasselblad, as Guy pointed out. If you want to shoot wide open with really good glass, that can become a problem in bright light. You may not be a "studio person" or have a desire to use lights, but that is the really great thing about MF....it can draw you and your work into so many more directions than you might be expecting now, so you may not want to rule out that option in your choice. (Phase/Mamiya will be releasing some leaf shutter lenses for use on their focal plane shutter bodies, but there is only one now and no idea when the rest may come along, nor the pricing. Leica, with its S2 has both leaf or Central Shutter as they call it, plus focal plane shutter lenses in the works for delivery mid-2009.)

So, if you need a solution soon, there are some very nice looking deals right now at the entry end of things. If you can wait a while, there may be even more interesting things coming along, like the S2, and possibly similar kinds of offerings from Canon and Nikon, though that still does not solve the lens quality issue from what we know now.

There are some great folks here, and they are both very helpful and quite candid, plus there are excellent reps and vendors that can answer most of your questions, usually very quickly. As others have mentioned, do try to get you hands on things you are considering, as handling is quite different for each and all quite different than DSLRs for sure.

LJ
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I think one think should be pointed out immediately is MF and almost any back you choose will just beat any 35mm DSLR out there with regards to DR, Resolution , Tonal range and stuff like that. You jump up you really jump up above the 35mm curve. Believe i had every system in 35mm out there and even my lowly 25plus back will trounce about anything. Yes i will get more detail in the higher res backs but you may only need that with going really big on prints. I just shot the P25,P30 and P45 plus backs last week on our workshop shooting fashion and such. Honestly i could not tell the difference unless i actually compared them side by side to each other. My point here more than anything is your taking a quantum leap up in quality of files, so that part don't concern yourself too much about . Seriously there all great and honestly we never ever fight which maybe the better of the backs, because we all know there virtually very close in image quality.
Our comparisons come down to software, functions, ergonomics and usability more than anything else. The service is awesome all around.
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
Justin, I've been using a Phase MFDB for about 3-4 months. Before purchasing the back, I had a variety of DSLRs but hadn't ever tried using medium format. I found, however, that I simply wanted more resolution and image flexibility to print larger when I want to print larger.

The caveat was that I wanted to be able to use the back in a variety of setting much like a DSLR. Since I don't own a flash system, I was concerned about how happy I'd be in available light settings at higher ISO levels. So far, I'm very pleased with my decision. Case in point, I was able to easily use the system over the past week for a trip to Vegas ... on the show floor, walking around at night for street photos and to capture some landscapes. I could have used different tools for each scenario but was comfortable using the MFDB in each situation. Different courses for different horses ... but it's working for me.

Kurt
 

woodyspedden

New member
Kurt

Good stuff. Were these taken at high ISO (800-1600). I believe you have the Phase P45+ but I am not sure.

Very encouraging indeed.

Woody
 

charlesphoto

New member
I know you're all obsessed with MF digital, but from the sounds of the original poster, he might be best off with a Mamiya 7 and a few lenses (which on the used market would set you back maybe $4K for the lot) and putting the rest of the money in the bank. With the interest could probably pay for the film and scanning.:p

To me MFD only makes sense for high rate of pro use (read lots of $ coming in from clients). Otherwise MF film is still very very good esp 6x7, 6X9 and 6X12 (read Mamiya, Fuji, and Horseman) and the gear is a steal (well maybe not the Horseman!). Also, to do wider stuff you get the full frame and therefore more depth. Most photographers I know shooting "art" are still doing so with film (many of them very very successful).

Anyway, just something to think about. If you were to go MFD, I would wait for the Leica S2. To me that's the camera that makes a really nice bridge between 35 and MF. I'll never be able to afford it (esp with a kid on the way) but it sure looks yummy.
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
Hi Woody,

Here are the details. Sorry if you got the impression they were 800 ISO shots. Although, I've been more satisfied with 800 ISO on the P45+ than I thought that I would be with the P45+.

Photo 1 ... 45mm/f2.8 400 ISO
Photo 2 ... 80mm/f2.8 200 ISO
Photo 3 ... 150mm/f8 50 ISO

Kurt
 
C

carbonmetrictree

Guest
Hi Justin, welcome to the forums!

I was in the same boat with the decision to move toward a MFDB. The 1DS-Mark III is a great camera with very good image quality within the DSLR line. However, when testing the P25+ and the P45+, I found that there was a significant boost in image quality compared to DSLR sensors. You do lose the function of high speed shooting capabilities, but I have been learning to gain a better eye in terms of timing, composition and framing because of the slower shooting style. Your work flow sounds close to how I shoot, and one of the most important features for me to use a digital back is the amount of dynamic range I can capture in a photograph. I do a lot of night photography and some day stuff for my personal portfolio and I need all of the dynamic range I can get. I was with a friend in an abandoned retirement home a few months ago and was shooting fairly quickly with the 1dsMk3. One of the major issues that I had when I got home was that I could not push or pull the files to where I wanted them to be. I also had to stop down to f/16 to get the image quality of a MFDB at f/8. I thought that a digital back might seem more fragile compared to the 1DS series of cameras, but after handling a few, I can now say that I am comfortable taking my camera to the same type of places I took the Canon (plus the MF sensor is WAY easier to clean :D). The Phase 645, Sinar HY, and the Hasselblad H series cameras are all great cameras to use for your application if you need auto focus.

Hope this helps!

Andrew
 

Mammy645

New member
Considering what you shoot I'd go with a Mamiya AFDIII for the focal plane shutter, and a P25+/P45+ for the micro-lens free sensor (in case you want to use it on a technical camera down the road) and the ability to shoot noise-free long exposures. JMHO.
 
J

jmvdigital

Guest
Thank you everyone for you kind welcoming and helpful words of wisdom.

Here's where I'm at in my thought process...

The Phamiya AFD with the P30+ is numero uno right now. I like the extra resolution of the P45+, but cost is a factor, and so is the extra stop of ISO from the P30+. Similar for the P25+, I like the extra res from the 30+ and the extra ISO. That of course assumes that the 800-1600 ISO from the 30+ isn't horrendously noisy. I can deal with some noise, in fact, I often add back monochromatic noise in my processing because I like the grainy textural look. My shooting is often about "old" and decaying subjects, like buildings, and smaller vignettes of found still life.

I see the 30+ has microlens, which some of you mentioned. I'm not terribly scared of them, coming from the DSLR world where every camera has them. Should I be scared? I'm not exactly sure how they affect IQ (aside from using them on a view cam.); as from what I know, they are used for better light gathering. Thus with the microlens, and 1600 ISO, I might gain say 2 usable stops from the 30+ over the 45+ (for example). At this point in my life, I see no future move to a technical or view cam. Of course things can change, but I'd rather evaluate that when I get to it, and not make concessions now for something that may never happen.

As for the S2... well it sure looks sexy. But $37,000 for the body alone is WAY out of my reach for now. At that price, lenses will be like $10k each.

The Hasselblad line is nice indeed, but I am a little wary of everything you guy's have been saying in the "price drop" thread. I don't want to be caught up in whatever is happening there. I don't want the stress of wondering whether they can keep things alive with this severe price drop if sales numbers don't pick up. I also don't really want to be caught holding an H3DII if they are ramping up for H4D with completely new body/back styles and lenses. The Hy6 looks like a great camera, but with their news of "collaboration" with Leaf, I again don't want to be holding the bag if the MF market starts into a cycle of consolidation to keep alive. I don't feel that way about Phase/Mamiya. For whatever reason, they feel like a solid company to me. Not that Sinar and Hassy don't right now, I'm just cautious with an investment this large.

The slow max shutter of the Sinar and Hassy were the main reasons I stayed away though. Almost all of my work (aside from landscape) is shot wide open. 95% of my shooting on 35mm is done wide open at 2.8 (and I recently acquired two 1.4L lenses), both for the shallow DoF and the increased exposure in difficult conditions. The later obviously wouldn't be a problem with the max shutter speed, but the former would. I'd rather not fuss with the variable ND and loss of the viewfinder if I can help it. I also don't envy the lens prices for Hassy.

Charles, thanks for the alternative of film, but after shooting digital now for 5 years, I have absolutely no desire to go back. There are too many headaches with film, made far worse by the shrinking market of both film manuf. and lab processing. :)

While I've got you all here, I'd like to discuss lenses. I am not AT ALL familiar with what lens choices are out there for the Mamiya, what can and cannot be used, what typically has the best quality, and what the trade-offs are for different types of lenses. I don't mean this in the basic sense, I have a BS from RIT in Imaging & Photo Tech, so optics aren't new to me. In the Canon world, everything is laid out for you, you choose what you wish from their line, they are all AF, and the L lenses are the best, period. Zooms are also typically poorer in IQ than primes, which I imagine holds true with MF as well.

That said, can you guys give me a quick and dirty primer on Mamiya lenses (or alt lenses that will fit)? I had been shooting with a 24-70 (on the Canon 35mm), but recently sold that and moved to a prime line up of 35mm, 85mm, and 135mm, with an UWA like 20 or 24mm in the future. So that's where I'd like to start. I had cursory picked out the 45mm f2.8 AF ($1100 on B&H) and the 150mm f3.5 AF ($1200) with extension tubes (which I assume are available for MFDB?). I also thought about the 120mm Macro f4 MF ($2000) instead of the 150mm. From there, I'd add the 28mm or the 35mm f3.5 AF later on. Thoughts? Alternatives? The Mamiya zooms look enticing for ease of use, but the slow aperture and decreased IQ (I assume) would counterintuitive. IQ and lots of light are my primary concerns.

That's all I've got for now. Continue the barrage of helpfulness. Can I tell you guys? This forum is such a huge change from the Canikon folks. Over at Fred Miranda and DP Review guys are so ruthless and outright rude. I keep waiting for someone to post here to tell me to f*ck off and go back to my little Canon. :)

-Justin
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Re two usable stops over the P45+, I doubt it :) In all the comparisons Guy and I did, the P25+ or 45+ at ISO 800 looked just like the P30+ at 1600 --- and all of them give up detail over one stop lower. Also note, I took a P45+ file, under-exposed one stop at ISO 800 and pushed it one in processing for an effective ISO 1600; the result was impressive as I found it quite usable, albeit with less fine detail available than at 400, but then it also has more residual pixels than the P30+, so maybe a wash.

On lenses for the Mamiya. Peruse this MF forum and you'll find tons of discussion. Without being repetitive, you can directly mount and shoot all older manual focus Mamiya 645 lenses on your newest Mamiya AF body, though they'll operate in stop-down mode, and can mount Hassy CF or F/FE lenses via an adapter for stop-down manual use. Some of these older manual lenses represent incredible bargains too: since you like shallow DoF, you should see Mamiya's 80mm f1.9 lens, maybe $250 used and Hassy 110 f2 F lens at around $1200 used. Lastly, the newest Mamiya 150 f2.8 D AF lens has paper-thin DoF and is razor-sharp wide open.

A wrap-up of my current lenses: 35 AF, very good if stopped down to f8 or 11, soft-ish (but usable) corners when more open; 55 AF, excellent all over; 80 AF, excellent; 150 AF, excellent; 300 AF, excellent.
 

LJL

New member
Justin,
If you decide to go Phase/Mamiya, which is a very good option based on your comments and interests, you may want to look more seriously at the 150mm f2.8 lens for that system. Guy has been using it a lot, and it looks like quite the stunner. Not super cheap, but the extra speed for your shallow DOF, plus the overall optics look to make this an excellent choice to think about.

LJ
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
:ROTFL: Well no one will tell you that here i can guarantee it. They would haveto go through Jack, Me and our mods. and we will NOT tolerate anyof that stuff.

Anyway you certainly sound like a focal plane shutter , no question in my mind. That is your basic consideration right out of the gate. The difference between the P25,P30 and P45 plus backs is slight and the P30 has that stop advantage but also has that crop of 1.3.

Now i noticed you like to shoot fast and wide open, I do also. Lenses I will just go down the list with quick thoughts. Budget is up to you but given you like wide open I can't recommend the 150 2.8 enough as you may have noticed in another thread but 3300.00 is the price tag and i think worth ever penny. Now you do get the 80mm in the kit and it is very good. Next the 28mm is a very expensive lens and I just bought one and only Hassy has one also. Nice rectilinear lens but sometimes a slight soft corners in some images. I think it has more to do with curvature of the lesn anyway it will be a 21mm 35mmFF on a P25 or p45 back and more like a 23 or 24 on a P30 . Need to do the math there.

35mm is a nice lens overall. Again not the sharpest tool in the shed but getting it down a couple stops it does a real nice job.

45mm current lens is supposed to real nice but a new D lens is coming

55mm current lens is a sharp lens and can be bought used for 500 or 600 dollars . Buy it you won't regret it or get the new 45mm. I have the 28,35 and 55 but will sell the 35 and 55 and get the new 45mm since I have the 28mm now

80mm new one great lens

Old 150mm 3.5 this is also a nice lens but need to stop down a little the new 150mm is better at the wider apertures and at the same f4 f stop the new one is better, actually one of my favorites is the new 150

210mm is a older lens but very sharp. i don't have that though Jack does and can comment better

300mm 4.5 AF I bought used for 1800 and is a kick ass lens for a 300mm lens

Zooms i will let others reply
 

Mitchell

New member
I'm in more or less the same boat as Justine, but coming from Leica 35mm.

One thing I noticed in using the Hy6/75 LV for a few days is that the decreased dof from 35mm is quite significant, perhaps some what mitigating concerns about the slow shutter speed of 1/1000 with PQS lenses. I found more difficulty getting large dof than narrow. This would be less true with the P30 or the Sinar 65 because of the smaller sensor.

I found the Hy6 to be outstanding ergonomically and a joy to use. For me, it's best attribute is the viewfinder. I was only able to use the Waist Level Finder. I think it could significantly improve my picture taking process, making me more aware of all the nuances contained in the whole frame.

I'm leaning towards the Hy6 65.

Best,

Mitchell
 
J

jmvdigital

Guest
Jack/Guy-

I'll have to revisit my thoughts on the 25+/30+/45+ after your remarks regarding ISO. Aside from no microlens and crop factor difference, is there any preference to the 25+ over the 30+? Chris at CaptureIntegration was leaning me more towards the 30+ for the ISO handling and increased resolution. The 45+ sounds like a stunner. Chris is expecting some new lower pricing from P1 next week, so let's see how that plays out. Right now, the 45+ is out of reach unless I can get a deal/steal somehow.

Guy, I can't seem to find the 150 2.8 for sale anywhere. I found one on Calumet's site, but it's listed at $1600, so can't be the same (http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/MA1212/). Any ideas on when the new 45 D will be available, and a cost? The current 45 is like $1100 I believe.

On a side note, is there ANY difference between the Mamiya-branded AFD-III and the P1 AFD bodies? the P1 seems just like a rebrand, but wanted to make sure there wasn't any worth to specifically getting the Mamiya.

Back to my research....
 
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