Site Sponsors
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 51 to 100 of 132

Thread: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

  1. #51
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Really....having a stock of Contax replacement parts to keep it breathing for more years will not improve the AF, will not improve any metering, will not be able to introduce any newer, faster features. If you can live with its present configuration and capabilities.....great....stay with it. If one wants the ability to employ newer developing technologies, it is not the system for that. If the backs and glass can do everything, then as a body, it works fine, but there are no paths to improving anything for it. Not bashing it, just taking a forward look which Contax does not have. It may not need it for some folks, and that is fine, but in the larger scheme of things, it, and others are not going to be delivering things that folks may want and need.

    LJ
    Well, the AF is still faster than a Leica M8 or Leica-R. Talk about limited growth....those Leica lenses will never be able to focus fast, no matter how much you advance their bodies. I have owned all of these cameras, but I dumped the Leica gear (much like Guy dumped his for Mamiya). For me, the Contax is still the one that is capable of the best files, and it is the one that can handle more diverse shooting conditions than these "newer" Leica cameras.

  2. #52
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Well, the AF is still faster than a Leica M8 or Leica-R. Talk about limited growth....those Leica lenses will never be able to focus fast, no matter how much you advance their bodies. I have owned all of these cameras, but I dumped the Leica gear (much like Guy dumped his for Mamiya). For me, the Contax is still the one that is capable of the best files, and it is the one that can handle more diverse shooting conditions than these "newer" Leica cameras.
    David,
    I appreciate the comment, but I never bought an M8 with AF in mind It is a different camera for different needs and uses, in my mind. I have not put it into my pro kit, as I just cannot count on it to get the shots I need when and how I need to get them. What it does capture is great. BTW, it still has some upgrade path with firmware and other options, should one need some of that. The DMR is a different story, but there may be some reprieve for R glass owners with the coming R10, so that may not be such a problem for them. They cannot upgrade the body, much as you cannot upgrade the Contax, so that is about the same.

    Not sure how you can say that the pending S2 will not be able to handle diverse shooting situations, as it is not out yet, and those that have handled it seem quite impressed with what it can offer. I am holding my own judgment on it until released and working, but on paper, it seems to hit a lot of the marks one may want for THAT kind of camera. No camera is a perfect solution, including the Contax. It may be perfect for your needs, but obviously is not for a lot of others. Nice to have some options.

    LJ

  3. #53
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,871
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Guy, the Zeiss lenses are a major point in the cost equation. Not even one of the new Leica S2 lenses offer the speed of the Contax Zeiss F2 80mm lens, which pro portrait photographers like Mark Tucker have put to great use.

    However, even if we compare bodies only, the Contax still offers more for less. If you are doing any serious macro or copy work, the waist level finder option on the Contax is invaluable ergonomically, and a real PITA when using a Mamiya 645. Then, there is the in-camera flash meter, which is like having a Sekonic flash meter at your fingertips. For any product work, the Contax auto-bellows offers shifts, tilts and swings, with a build quality and precision almost identical to a Horseman. In fact, just ask Irakly, who is able to use this equipment quite effectively in his work.

    And, I do not think you even want to bring up the shutter lag issues that Mamiya has, when the Contax has none.

    I will agree that new cameras are offering some newer and different features, but all in all, there are so many useful and productive features of the Contax that newer cameras like the Mamiya still do not even offer yet. So, it is pointless to claim that the newer cameras are actually "moving forward". It may not be the fastest camera for fashion and event photography. But, for portrait, copy, macro and product work, the Contax is more than capable of delivering professional results.
    Reality is, that the Contax System does not exist anymore nor is it supported and any future developments to be expected.

    While you may have such a system and be happily using it with great digital backs it is no longer supported. Unfortunately, because it had evolved to a really great system and would be - frankly - a serious competition to the S System as well as the other MF Systems. But - Contax decided to skip it. Kind of really crazy management decision

    Thus comparing the Contax 645 system to any other MF system, especially the S System does not make any sense in my eyes. Never look into the past, better look into the future

    And the future will be definitely cool

  4. #54
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Keep in mind that the DMR was probably the lamest, most insanely overpriced camera system in existence, but the photos told a different story. I'll do the same I did with the DMR -- wait for Guy to buy a couple and then make my decision.

  5. #55
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    They need to give me one to test. Not joking either
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  6. #56
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Reality is, that the Contax System does not exist anymore nor is it supported and any future developments to be expected.

    While you may have such a system and be happily using it with great digital backs it is no longer supported. Unfortunately, because it had evolved to a really great system and would be - frankly - a serious competition to the S System as well as the other MF Systems. But - Contax decided to skip it. Kind of really crazy management decision

    Thus comparing the Contax 645 system to any other MF system, especially the S System does not make any sense in my eyes. Never look into the past, better look into the future

    And the future will be definitely cool
    Of course the Contax system exists. The Contax brand company may be out of business, but the system itself is still available and going strong. Contrary to what you say, it is still supported, at least by ToCad in the US who have the official support rights and honor all warranties. All of the support equipment and spare parts that were in Japan are now at ToCad. As for future developments, there will be none, but as I pointed out previously, they were so far ahead of everyone else in terms of providing a complete professional system, that it is still taking other companies like Mamiya years to catch up. For example, Mamiya still has serious shutter lag issues, no waist finder, no flash meter, no 500mm AF lens, no T/S bellows, etc. etc.

    In fact, the Leica DMR is a much more dead system than the Contax. I am not just speaking for myself, as there are many well-known photographers who prefer the Contax 645 in their work (e.g., James Russel in addition to the other names already dropped in this thread).

    I understand that Leica must discredit the Contax 645, and will use whatever means it can to promote its new S2. As you say, it is a serious competitor. It offers an incredibly lower entry price point, allowing people to put their money into a more capable and more flexible digital back system for themselves. This is exactly what Leica does not want people to do. They need to compete at a more equivalent price competitor like Hasselblad.

    So, the reality is that per dollar (or per euro), you will be able to get a better image file with a Contax 645 (and its Zeiss glass) and a high end MFDB, than with a new S2 system. In fact, you will see the MFDB makers continue to support the Contax 645, despite what you may hear. The other digital back makers will eventually realize that supporting the Contax actually helps them to keep Leica from stealing any significant part of their MFDB sales.

    The Contax 645 is just so much more economical and can deliver the goods for most photographer's businesses. For the casual photographer with some money, the S2 will be a great toy, but for anyone with business sense, these people will continue to use the Contax system until the shutter gives out completely. It will last for years and years, and they will have made and saved tons of money over those years. There is no pressure for such people to jump to something like an S2. When the time comes, and their Contax really dies, only then do they need to look for another camera.

    I guess it is a lot like cars. Some of us feel the need to upgrade and get a new car every year or so, and others can continue to turn their odometers over and over, and enjoy doing something else with their profits.

  7. #57
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    They need to give me one to test. Not joking either
    Guy, why so shy? Why not say they need to really give you one, PLUS all the lenses.....to keep, not just to test? Be bold

    LJ

  8. #58
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I understand that Leica must discredit the Contax 645, and will use whatever means it can to promote its new S2. As you say, it is a serious competitor. It offers an incredibly lower entry price point, allowing people to put their money into a more capable and more flexible digital back system for themselves. This is exactly what Leica does not want people to do. They need to compete at a more equivalent price competitor like Hasselblad.

    So, the reality is that per dollar (or per euro), you will be able to get a better image file with a Contax 645 (and its Zeiss glass) and a high end MFDB, than with a new S2 system. In fact, you will see the MFDB makers continue to support the Contax 645, despite what you may hear. The other digital back makers will eventually realize that supporting the Contax actually helps them to keep Leica from stealing any significant part of their MFDB sales.


    David how much koolaid have you been drinking.

    Where in the world does leica discredit the Contax system. PLEASE show me that info. Sorry that one is completely out of the blue. I have never heard leica ever discredit any manufacture in public.

    How do you know the Contax system will produce a better file. The Leica S2 does not exist yet for that to be even compared. Again show me. There is one lens made at this point and no files to even look at . Sorry the Leica will kick a lot of *** when it comes to speed and it's versatility with leaf and focal lenses all in one package and just about anyones else's. Sure it does not have a separate back but for many folks that will not be a issue look how many P30, Hassy 31 and the Sinar 65 will be sold or already sold. They can't do much with there backs either. So they never come off, this is about the only downside i see if you want to call it that.

    Please let's get real here, I know you love your Contax system but the fact is it is a dead system David you can chew around it all you want but that body will never improve. Frankly I like the Contax but that is not the point if i do or i don't obviously you love it at a point that these statements are false. Please let's not mislead the public on this. You can't improve what already has been made and forgotten. Sure a cheap way in the door but i would never recommend a camera that can't be improved. I have 5 friends that owned it and sold it or trying to unload it and moved on to other systems, so it is not perfect . Mamiya maybe no great shakes in your eyes but it is a system of note and still in business making improvements and lenses. BTW that shutter lag is being worked on as we speak. Phase One is still in business to do that, Contax is not able to have changes made and it is not perfect the AF is extremely slow. Now tell me can that be fixed. And we have no clue on the pricing of the S2 yet, it is not officially announced or in store to make a per dollar comparison either the numbers tossed out are from 12k to 45 k US , How do you get a number that is real out of that. This may sell like hot cakes or flop like a bird but no one knows that yet. On paper it looks pretty darn good but until it is real nothing is fact. I consider the DMR a dead system too but leica is still in business to make those repairs and will do so for a long time. But you can't buy a new body and additional firmware will not be made it is a dead system. Lovely as it is but that is the fact.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  9. #59
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Anything that works for the user is NOT a dead system ... including the Contax 645. Let's say the S2 kit costs $25K-30K ... one could buy a Phase P30+ and a box of C645 bodies and dust bin them as they wear out

    The Hasselblad 200 series is a discontinued system and hobbled by lack of digital choices ... but it sure the Hell isn't "dead." All my sparkling new techno-gear genuflects in adoration when in it's presence

    Here's how I personally see the Leica S2 ...

    This camera is a possible exit from the 35mm DSLR rat race that has cost me as much money over the years of moving up and/or over as any MFD kit has.

    I'm personally sick of trying to squeeze IQ out of the confined sensor DSLRs ... especially after being spoiled by even 16 meg., 9 micron CFV MFD files, let alone 39 meg MFD files.

    By the time this camera is available, I will most likely already be shooting with a 60 meg. even larger sensor camera that uses all the uber-sensor technology the S2 delivers. And I am NOT giving up my FULL range of Leaf Shutter lenses from 28mm to 510mm, plus T/S and Tech Camera Rollei Xact-II application with unquestioned optical APO digital solutions from Schneider and Rodenstock. So, absolutely no contest there. None.

    The S2 is the FOCAL PLANE solution I have been waiting for. I've owned the complete Contax 645 system (including exotic stuff some folks may have never even seen) The AF made me crazy, and they never delivered the promised Leaf Shutter lenses. I've owned the Mamiya 645AFD-II with a Aptus 75s back ... and sold it (personal preference, enough said.)

    If the S2 AF is at least as good as my H3D-II/31, and the ISO 800 files are as good, (as good will do, but it promises to be a LOT better and that's a bonus), AND if the flash control is anywhere near that of the H system or Nikon ... then bye-bye Nikon, bye, bye H3D-II/31, maybe even bye-bye Hasselblad 203FE/CFV (if I can stand to part with this thing of beauty.)

    The Caveat Emptor ... the "Elephant in the room" so to speak ... is how Leica handles the Pro service.

  10. #60
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Marc,
    Have to agree with a lot of what you say, especially about the S2 possibly becoming much more of a go-to camera, IF it does what is being advertised, and IF (bigger IF) Leica gets the S&S working for pros.

    As you note, the S2 will probably NOT replace any of the higher resolving MP kits for folks. It may, but somehow I am not yet "seeing" it for some of that. That being said, the 37MP top end may be enough, if it delivers as many here hope. These possibilities are stalling me right now from jumping to something like the Hy6, H3DII-39, and even the Phase One 645/Mamiya AFDIII, as well as having me hold off on anything more than needed spendings for the Canon 1-series stuff. The S2 may not be able to do ALL the things I do now with the Canons (or Nikons for others), but if it gets most of the things done, I would rather go that route, and then rent a Canikon when needed, or keep just a 50D for the 400 f2.8 or something.

    This entire thread argument about "dead" or not systems seems a bit off track. They are what they are. They deliver what they do, or not. The paths to improving the system/camera exist or they do not. What really matters is if the choice can do what you need it to do, and be repaired/fixed as is needed. There are some things in all systems that are dead ends, like that eye-point focus for Canon film cameras a while back. Guess this is just my way of saying folks need not be so hyperbolic about their own choices. If they are happy with what they have and use, fine. Others may gravitate to a similar solution themselves, but should not be pushed in either direction. My personal choice it to avoid a system that cannot be supported, as so much tech is changing so rapidly. The mechanical stuff may still function flawlessly, and that is great, but anymore, that is not the entire story. Hassy is demonstrating that with its system, Phase is looking at similar things, as it Sinar. The discontinued kits still work, but maybe not with everything that folks may want and need moving forward. Just my own observations and experiences so far.

    LJ

  11. #61
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Alright dead maybe a bad choice of words. My bad but when making any purchase this stuff comes into play along with dealer support and such . The Contax is a nice system, almost went there but decided it would not work in the end for me. I may own Mamiya but guy's you know me , I would turn on a dime if something made more sense to me. I have absolutely no problem switching any system out. I also have no brand loyalty to any system. I like all of them for what they are and represent. But I will not steer someone in a bad direction if they have certain needs or wants because i may like something else better that is not my place nor my personal desire. End of story
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  12. #62
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Guy,
    I think your comments and suggestions are valid, and I agree that one should take ALL pieces of the puzzle into account. The Contax system may work for some folks, but its lack of support could really become a problem for others. (By lack of support, I am talking about those things regarding readily available servicing, help, etc. There is a large community of folks shooting Contax, and for the most part could be very helpful, but most are not a simple call to a good dealer that can help you immediately. In that respect, any non-supported system can become problematic for folks, even present things on the market that may not have an extensive network to help when needed. In another thread folks were talking about Briese lighting.....great stuff, but if you do not have support, like Profoto and others, you can really be stuck.)

    I think a lot of folks understand your "no-brand loyalty" position, and like you appreciate that perspective. Others may have much more deeply invested feelings, and that is fine. (I shot Nikon for decades and really tried to find a viable solution when things went digital. They just could not provide that, so my brand loyalty also got quickly displaced with the "it needs to work for me and my shooting" perspective. The only thing that will continue to hang folks up on things is the possible switching costs, with their accompanying losses. I know that bugs the daylights out of me now, and why I have been slow to commit to anything really seriously at this point.)

    There are just a lot more things that folks should consider in their choices of things, so it is good to have a variety of views and perspectives on things. I happen to agree with you on this Contax thing.....very good camera....maybe was a system ahead of its time when at its peak...still useful for many....lacks ability to provide improvements that some may want/need/look forward to....lacks any dedicated support network to get help....still has parts and repairs available, but those will dry up.

    So, folks should pick and choose things for their needs and what they can or wish to afford, both financially and from a support perspective. All of this stuff is complicated enough and expensive enough that it can make a very big difference.

    LJ

  13. #63
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ... Where in the world does leica discredit the Contax system. PLEASE show me that info. Sorry that one is completely out of the blue. I have never heard leica ever discredit any manufacture in public...
    Yes, I did not word that correctly. What I meant was that Leica benefits the most from any notion that the Contax system is dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ...How do you know the Contax system will produce a better file. The Leica S2 does not exist yet for that to be even compared. Again show me. There is one lens made at this point and no files to even look at . Sorry the Leica will kick a lot of *** when it comes to speed and it's versatility with leaf and focal lenses all in one package and just about anyones else's...
    Again, it is not that the Contax system will produce a better file, but rather a Phase back such as the P65+, even if it is on a Contax 645.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ... Sure it does not have a separate back but for many folks that will not be a issue look how many P30, Hassy 31 and the Sinar 65 will be sold or already sold. They can't do much with there backs either. So they never come off, this is about the only downside i see if you want to call it that...
    At least these MFDB owners can clean their sensors more easily before a shot. In practice, it is so much easier to clean the sensor of a digital back. WIth a DSLR like the S2, you must take off the lens, flip up the mirror, and then poke around with a cleaning swab. No thank you! I would not want any DSLR that does not at least offer some form of automatic sensor cleaning. Even though there is mature technology for this, Leica doesn't offer it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ...Please let's get real here, I know you love your Contax system but the fact is it is a dead system David you can chew around it all you want but that body will never improve. Frankly I like the Contax but that is not the point if i do or i don't obviously you love it at a point that these statements are false. Please let's not mislead the public on this...
    I am getting real. My response in these threads is precisely to help other people from being mislead. The Contax is only one of several MF systems that I use, and I am fortunate to be able to use more than one MF system, whereas others may not. I have nothing to gain from anyone deciding to choose the Contax or not, as it is no skin off my back. I do feel that people should think hard about where to put their money, as I see a lot of photographers struggling to keep afloat in their businesses. Such people will be scared into keeping their Contax systems or from buying them as entry cameras, when they are perfectly legitimate and capable to handle professional work. It allows their funding to go towards a more versatile and more modern MFDB such as the P65+ for instance.

    And yes, if anyone is happier with a Mamiya or Phase camera, that's great too. Again, it is not so much the Contax 645 that I am endorsing, but rather the consideration that a more capable, flexible and upwardly mobile MFDB can be purchased to give perhaps a better file than the S2 at the same price point.

  14. #64
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ...If the S2 AF is at least as good as my H3D-II/31, and the ISO 800 files are as good, (as good will do, but it promises to be a LOT better and that's a bonus), AND if the flash control is anywhere near that of the H system or Nikon ... then bye-bye Nikon, bye, bye H3D-II/31, maybe even bye-bye Hasselblad 203FE/CFV (if I can stand to part with this thing of beauty.)...
    Well, at least you did not say bye-bye to your H3D-II/50 on order.

    I am sure there is a place for the Leica S2, as there is a place for all cameras. I find it strange that Leica chose to make only three or four lenses with leaf shutters, and the rest without. Whereas, with Hasselblad H3D, you get the full spectrum from 28mm to 500mm focal lengths (and many with tilt/shift via the HTS), all with a leaf shutter. It seems to me that if Hasselblad ever decides to add a focal plane shutter to their H camera, then the variety of their leaf shutter lenses (which could also make use of the focal plane shutter) would then be a huge advantage for Hasselblad.

  15. #65
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,871
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Putting some oil in the fire here - but sorry, the Contax 645 is a DEAD system. It is no longer produced, nor will there be any further developments. Kyocera decided to skip it a few years ago and BTW all existing cameras and lenses they had produced were destroyed and not sold (I mean the ones which were not already at dealers).

    No idea why this decision was taken and I personally think it was completely wrong, because the C 645 system was really great, but it was decided by Kyocera.

    Of course it may be still a great system for many users, but it will not be developed any further. And thus for me it is dead.

  16. #66
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,383
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Well,
    I am sorry but I can't let David respond alone; though I am likely considered more a Contax fanatic than fan!
    Most of the discussion here is just so much jaw flexing, and focusing on DEAD is, as fotografz says, pretty off mark with people still buying it. (and all manufacurers stll making backs for it!)
    Is the DMR dead?
    Is the M8 (with higher shuuter speed) dead?
    Are the early Nikon F bodies DEAD?

    Most forget that photographers in the past used bodies and lenses for decade. Hell, even the film didn't change that much.

    Yet the same people who talk dead systems harken back to the golden age of photography when the focus was on image making not equipment.

    Whether or not the Contax is right or wrong for a person, the fact that it is a discontinued system esp calling it DEAD is a great DISSERVICE to those who COULD be quite happy with it but are frightened off because a preofessional or serious amateur they look to for advice uses scare words instead of facts.

    Look at the Contax promoters; they don't call it the best thing since cheesecake; however, we know that there are limited Schott glass components, that classic Leica lenses are well sought after (my god, the prices of the Summarex! LOL) Maybe we see something that is in the Contax that is important and lost- a system that you don't have to worry about, you just use and get good files.

    And let's stop this nonesense about supporting Contax prices; I have seen NO evidence of shilling for a Contax sales, and even once, in the face of a 700 WLF sale, I think someone priced it at 400-pretty close to market for comparables.

    The biggest issue I have with the Contra-Contax crowd is that they are using unfair emotional issues to disuade buyers and shift them to another system, without even trying, since they buy into the DEAD STORY

    and that's what it is; the use of DEAD should itself be a dead story.

    Regards
    Victor

  17. #67
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Victor please no one is using scare tactics to switch people to a different system period . So let's stop that talk now. The point being made it is a system that has no future in firmware and upgrades to it just like the DMR which you still can get repaired by Leica, the Contax you cannot get repaired by there OEM. Either you accept it for what it is and buy it or not but first time buyers should be aware of what they are buying otherwise it is a disservice to them not to know it's place in the industry and that is what this forum is about and that is helping people. I think the best advice given from the non Contax users is make sure you know what you are buying , get extra batteries and accessories to support the system and even a backup body is not out of the question. That's it there is no scare tactics or anything else , we are not salesman trying to make money here and gain nothing, just folks trying to help out and be aware of what is available to them. Period
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  18. #68
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter, Fla.
    Posts
    1,967
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Tempest in a teapot if you ask me.... pretty sure we all know the status of most systems here on this forum. Taking issue with somebody's choice of words is pretty far afield from photography. I'm a Contax guy... not my prime system any longer, but I've been a fan long enough to remember when most of those using that system didn't want anybody saying nice things about it for fear of driving the price of used gear up and out of reach. Anybody else remember that. The more people that are scared away from Contax the better I like it

  19. #69
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ... The point being made it is a system that has no future in firmware and upgrades to it just like the DMR which you still can get repaired by Leica, the Contax you cannot get repaired by there OEM...
    This is exactly the kind of mis-information that I am against. Your statement here is entirely untrue. I can give you several cases from my own experience. Last year, I had a Contax TLA 360 flash stop working. It was barely within the three year warranty period....ToCad replaced it with a new one. Also, I sent ToCad my Contax 350 APO lens for CLA. The tech called me on the phone and asked if I also wanted to check any elements for centering/misalignment. The cost was only a few hundred bucks, so I said what the heck, sure. They sent the lens to Zeiss, and it came back like new, polished elements and razor sharp. I also have my bodies checked every year for metering and shutter accuracy, and ToCad has no problem and does a wonderful job. They have ex-Contax technicians who have worked with both Contax and Zeiss for years, all the way back to the RTS series cameras. They are extremely professional, and technically capable with all the proper equipment for repair and calibration (except for lenses, which Zeiss still supports).

    So, please get your facts straight before you write such things.

    And, regarding your statement about not being able to move forward with any updates....is precisely because no updates are needed. You said it yourself earlier that Mamiya is STILL working on their shutter lag issue. Well, Contax does not have a shutter lag issue and never had one. And this is almost a YEAR now for Mamiya. So, you would be happier with using a crippled camera with shutter lag issues that is "supported", over a camera that is working perfectly even though it is no longer being manufactured. I guess that is your personal choice, but for me, I am happy with what is working perfectly.

    Like David Kipper, I am also a Hy6 user, which has its strengths in areas where the Contax does not, like a huge bright viewfinder, rotatable back and leaf shutter lenses. But the Contax camera is still delivering the goods as far as being able to produce the highest quality images, with the latest and highest quality digital backs....and at an incredibly reasonable and inexpensive price point.

    The top of the line backs from every vendor, including Hasselblad, Phase, Sinar and Leaf all support the Contax 645. Obviously, the presidents and chief executives of all these companies do not think the Contax 645 is dead. Of course, you are free to disagree with them, but I think their current business decisions carry more weight than your personal opinion about the Contax.

  20. #70
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    David, Tocad is NOT the original equipment manufacture it is a repair shop just like the one here in Tempe Arizona that can fix Hassy, Nikon Canon and many other systems

    From ToCad website
    Note: Contax N Digital, RTS III, U4R, I4R, SL300R T* and TVS Digital cameras and 645 lenses are sent to Contax Japan for estimate, approval and repair. This process can take up to 90 days. An estimate is provided free of cost even in the event the unit is not approved for repair.

    90 days to get a lens fixed

    David bottom line there is NO OEM making the Contax 645 period. It is nolonger supported by the company that built it. leica is and the DMR is supported by leica in Solms and NJ.

    Let's drop the working perfectly please the AF is slower than a turtle on the Contax system. Please have fun with your system on a personal level i really don't care one way or another. If you want to praise Contax that is your decision but it is not being made anymore and that is the very point that has been said over and over and you completely overlook that fact. That is the real fact

    BTW the Phase One body has been out 2 months and several of us here have been working with Phase one on some additional firmware and also cutting down the lag time. This is a active system with OEM support

    Time to move on
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  21. #71
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    David, Tocad is NOT the original equipment manufacture it is a repair shop just like the one here in Tempe Arizona that can fix Hassy, Nikon Canon and many other systems...
    Guy, boy you do not know the facts very well here. Tocad is the name of the parent company that bought out the east coast Contax repair center in New Jersey from Kyocera. Furthermore, they purchased ALL of the repair assets and legal rights to support the Contax brand cameras. Let me repeat. ALL of the standard processes, including ALL Contax repair assets from Kyocera in Japan have been moved to this repair center in New Jersey. And, they are the official repair center who will still HONOR ALL CONTAX WARRANTIES.

    The technicians are the same qualified and trained Contax people as before. The equipment, parts and processes are all the same. So, just because there is a new parent company does not really change the fact that the service is the same. In NO WAY can you compare these highly trained ex-Contax employees who have the legal means to support and honor Contax warranty to a small mom and pop repair shop.

    But, sincerely, I do hope you can get your Mamiya shutter lag problem fixed soon. ToCad has been able to turn around my Contax service really fast.

  22. #72
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I am really tired of this David regardless as i said over and over the camera is NOT being made anymore (it is discontinued PERIOD) and if you read my comments that is what i said all along instead of putting words in my mouth and chewing around this fact , who cares if it can be serviced by anyone that was not my point all along it is a discontinued product and i will not recommend it because of that fact and if i do it comes with that clause in my recommendation it is a discontinued product not being made anymore end of story. Tocad if it is the repair center that is great but it can't improve anything and that is what i said all along. Stop putting words in my mouth
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  23. #73
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    David Klepaki:

    Instead of you and Guy continuing to argue over semantics, please answer these two very simple questions with a "yes" or "no" and I suspect maybe you'll better understand what Guy's points are:

    1) Is the Contax 645 body still being manufactured?

    2) Are Contax 645 AF lenses, OR Contax-compatible AF lenses still being manufactured by *any* company?

    PS: To be clear, I do understand there are lots of places where discontinued gear can get repaired.

    Thanks in advance,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  24. #74
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Jack,

    Ask ANY photographer to inventory his equipment and report how much of his gear is no longer being manufactured. Can you honestly tell me that you have not one piece of equipment that you use that is no longer made?

    The best example is perhaps the Hasselblad FE lenses. Most of those lenses are no longer made, but the value and demand is still there. Why? Because they produce incredibly beautiful images at a reasonable cost. Heck, Mamiya even acknowledges this fact by recently (in 2008) introducing a Hasselblad lens adapter for all of their 645 cameras.

    Even one of the oldest cameras, like the Hasselblad 903/SWC, which has not been made for quite some time, is still very much in professional use. Why? Because it was well made with basically zero distortion, and gets the job done.

    So, the answer to both of your questions is "no", but who gives a hoot.

    Most photographers don't avoid decent gear at a decent price just because it is no longer made. They acquire the appropriate tools to get the job done in an economical manner.

  25. #75
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Guy, I am sorry if you feel I am putting words in your mouth, but this is not the case. I have done nothing more than to state the facts about the Contax system and its current mode of support.

    It is fine if you do not endorse the Contax camera. I think your position is acknowledged and understood. You have every right to endorse or not-endorse any camera system....we all have that right. You did use the word "dead" to describe the Contax system, and that is what I am correcting. I am not debating my opinion versus your opinion, I am only stating the facts of its continued support, not only by Tocad and Zeiss for repair purposes but by all the MFDB manufacturers.

    So, I think we understand each other's positions. You find the Contax 645 to be dead, and do not endorse the Contax 645 because it is no longer being manufactured or upgraded. On the other hand, I tend to agree with the executives of Phase, Leaf, Sinar, and Hasselblad who still recognize its utility among professionals and continue to support the Contax 645, and not to declare it as dead.
    Last edited by David Klepacki; 3rd October 2008 at 11:43.

  26. #76
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    David:

    Nobody is arguing that older equipment is not useful. As for the choice of words, "dead system" means perhaps different things to different people. To me (and likely Guy too) it means a system that no longer has OEM support for repair, replacement or newly introduced *and compatible* bodies, lenses and accessories.

    I do own lenses for my Leica M's for example that are no longer made. HOWEVER, if one of those lenses fails and cannot be repaired, I can still buy brand new lenses of the same focal length from the same manufacturer -- OR even choose from several third party manufacturers -- to replace them. Thus this system does not present a "dead-end" to me.

    In the case of the Contax 645, a user is relegated to a predominantly used and relatively limited market; there were not many (any?) third party offerings I know of for the Contax 645. (Yes, Hassy lenses can be used in stop-down mode via adapter, but no AF options I know of?) So while a continued supply of working bodies and working lenses is certainly available, nobody can say how long it will last; it will last as long as the stuff that's out there works or can be repaired, and when that used supply is gone, then it's done...

    Similar is the Hassy V system. The big difference however is Hassy V has been around for many, many years, and hence there are a plethora of used bodies, lenses and parts still available -- AND a bunch of third-party choices. I do not have any idea how large the used supply of Hassy V is, but certainly considerably more than for the Contax 645 AF. So while it is also close to being a "dead system" it is unlikely a user will run out of replacement parts anytime in the foreseeable future.

    In my own MF system, Mamiya, I would say that any of the pre-AF Mamiya 645 bodies and lenses are part of a "dead" system. Yes, the older lenses can be used on the current bodies, but none of the current lenses or accessories can be used on the old bodies. As soon as the supply of compatible used bodies dries up and can no longer be repaired, it's done too.

    One final point: Very often a working pro looks to viable and rapid replacement or replenishment of their gear. Should one of my lenses or my body fail and I have a job to use it on tomorrow, I need to be able to get my hands on that replacement right now today, not next week. I can go to any number of camera stores and rental centers in most any major city anywhere in the WORLD, and find replacement gear if needed. That is what it means to me to be using a supported system.

    Hope this helps explain my view better!

    ,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  27. #77
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    The big difference between a Contax 645, N, or ND and old Leicas or old Hasselblad 500s are all, or mostly all, of them are mechanical. There are all sorts of qualified repair people to keep these cameras running.

    IMO, the C645 was a camera before it's time, and has held its own to this day.

    However, it's simply to slow AF for those that need that.

  28. #78
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,383
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    However, it's simply to slow AF for those that need that.

    AAAHHH. a genuine comment on capability!

    Yes, I agree, a bit slow on AF, and you need to be careful that it doesnt find a nifty high detail background to focus on instead of your close subject....I have learned, for example to focus on the ground, depress half, recompose and shoot. Better, pre focus on the spot you anticipate the action. (In my experience, 50-70% of ground balls go to the shortstop!)

    But we all make trade-offs. It is why I have pre-ordered the S2, esp for sports...

    Now, on repair... I must say I have nothing to contribute... in 6 years nothing has broken (and I have everything, now that I just bought a 220 vacuum back :-)

    oops, forgot . I am still looking for a WORKING LCD viewer (the one that fits "N" as well)

    I must say though, this thread is unnecessarily straining and may well be closed in the interest of controlling blood pressure!

    best regards
    (and I believe all here are still only expressing their passion - nothing should be taken personally)

    Victor

  29. #79
    andershald
    Guest

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I thought I'd just let you guys know that today I picked up my P30 back and a Contax kit, acquired from Phase One through a dealer. My dealer had been at the Phase One headquarters and was offered to pick me a Contax kit from the shelf, he took one of the boxes that had not been opened, and it was indeed a brand spanking new kit!!! not a frame on the shutter, the little piece of paper saying 'this is the shutter, don't put a finger through it' was still under the body cap.

    I have been studying the manual (just because I felt I ought to) and I am amazed at the engineering that has gone into building this camera. Wow, ahead of its time? Ahead of our time, I say. Build quality is impeccable, like a really expensive super car... (not that I have ever owned one of them) but wow.

    Now if Phase will allow me to buy a second kit...I am quite certain that I will have a working Contax 645 kit for the next 10-15 years. As for lenses, there isn't a lens I would want that doesn't exist in their line-up.

    So I am an extremely happy Contax owner (well, have been for almost 12 hours).

    ...Oh and not an lcd screen anywhere on that thing, marvelous, I say!

    Anders

  30. #80
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Victor go workout and run on the treadmill. I did and feel so much better. LOL

    HecK AF on all these MF systems are not anywhere near Nikon and Canon but it get's us there and I think most of them hunt some too. I know mine does..

    (and I believe all here are still only expressing their passion - nothing should be taken personally) Agree totally
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  31. #81
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I want...... (copied from a post on LL)

  32. #82
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Jack, again more misinformation here. Hasselblad V dead??? Since when? The Hasselblad V system is very much alive. Just go to their website and see for yourself, or call any Hasselblad dealer. They will be happy to take your order for a brand new V system. The 503CW/CWD is still being offered with a full array of brand new CFi and CFE leaf shutter lenses, and they recently introduced a new CFV-II digitial back for it. And, of course, it is fulliy OEM supported. So, maybe you have to revise your definition of "dead", as it is unclear in your example of Hasselblad V.

    As far as you insisting on being able to buy things brand new, how much of your gear was actually purchased brand new in the first place? A lot of people save money by buying used or refurb equipment. And for that matter, what are we to think about the Buy and Sell forum here? Are you only endorsing the purchase of new products only, and recommend that people stay away from anything that could be deemed "dead"?

  33. #83
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Ok,
    I have enough,
    Whateva you folks wanna think that is ok with me.
    Dead or not or simply no longer made or maybe just well preserved.
    My own experience is that once we got beyond the graflex lensboard then all bets were off. Stuff was made for specific lines.
    Now will somebody will make a new Pentax thread mount lens for me?
    Probably not.
    I have a really dead ferrotype plate around my basement somewhere. You know, the old chrome kind.
    anybody want to argue with that?
    It might be useful, but my roller has dried out.
    It is all cruft in the end, whenever that is...
    -bob

  34. #84
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    OK, I will be the first to ask for a truce in this discussion.....I do not enjoy writing these things. In fact, I thought this was over until someone starting fanning the flames again.

    So, can we just move on and enjoy our shooting, with whatever system we may enjoy. I do not find it healthy to debate this any longer...and besides, I do not want Victor to blow an artery as well.

    Please no one start calling any system dead, and let's move on.

  35. #85
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,383
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    OK, I will be the first to ask for a truce in this discussion.....I do not enjoy writing these things. In fact, I thought this was over until someone starting fanning the flames again.

    So, can we just move on and enjoy our shooting, with whatever system we may enjoy. I do not find it healthy to debate this any longer...and besides, I do not want Victor to blow an artery as well.

    Please no one start calling any system dead, and let's move on.
    No worry David
    just had my annual; BP 118/68

    I was actually refering to other guys.....

  36. #86
    Subscriber Member KurtKamka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,232
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    26

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    The only dead thing that concerns me about MF gear is all of the dead presidents that fly out of my wallet every time I buy something else.

  37. #87
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    The only dead thing that concerns me about MF gear is all of the dead presidents that fly out of my wallet every time I buy something else.
    Amen
    Lord bless their souls
    -bob

  38. #88
    andershald
    Guest

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I want...... (copied from a post on LL)
    Holy s***

    I just blew an artery looking at that image. Oh my, I will dream about that all night! (and all of tomorrow, and probably for the next year)

    Gee thanks robmac, hope you are happy now!

    Nah, it's all good what a wonderful image!

    Best regards,
    Anders

  39. #89
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    If I were on better terms with either of my Senators, I would have hoped that there would have been some pork for me. I think that Massachusetts really deserves to have a lens collection like this too.
    -bob

    Well, at least Barney Frank is getting his.....

  40. #90
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I like pain ;>

    Damn near stopped my heart when I saw it.

    Drop me an email address and I''ll send the larger version (450K) - or hit LL and the 'show us your rig' or some such thread in the MFD forum.

    You're one right-click away from a desktop pic that will make your wallet want to pour lighter fluid on itself and walk into the fireplace.

    Next time a see a nice priced Contax kit I may just buy it - even if just to shoot film until the camera budget starts breeding more little camera budgets.

    Reminds me of the Ducatis wife and I used to own - you just wanted sit in the garage with a drink and a cigar when the snow was 3' deep and stare at the suckers.

    Damn, that looks almost too good to use.

    Cheers

    R

    Quote Originally Posted by andershald View Post
    Holy s***

    I just blew an artery looking at that image. Oh my, I will dream about that all night! (and all of tomorrow, and probably for the next year)

    Gee thanks robmac, hope you are happy now!

    Nah, it's all good what a wonderful image!

    Best regards,
    Anders

  41. #91
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    222
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    77

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Yes, and I got my Lotto ticket, drawn tonight, $20 million... its never that high where I am. Would never forgive myself, no choice, get ticket...

    Contax? If I got one, think I'd want 2 bodies in case one decided not to work, get repaired...

  42. #92
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post

    So, the answer to both of your questions is "no", but
    No offense David, but for most pro's there is no "but" after the twin "no's" and no point discussing that point any further. I agree it is a different situation altogether for hobbyists and amateurs.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  43. #93
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Jack, again more misinformation here. Hasselblad V dead???
    I was using Hassy V as an example to make a slightly different point -- that as a deep system that's been around for years, at least turning to it you have a long supply of replacements even if it were dead -- and granted that probably confused the issue further rather than settling it, my bad.

    Regardless, I stand by my comments and the concepts I illustrated with them; and I stand by and agree with Guy's cautions to newcomers about buying into a system that no longer has an OEM to support it; a system that has no future as far as upgrades and improvements is concerned. If they -- pro or amateur -- still want to buy into that system knowing that, then by all means they are welcome to do so.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  44. #94
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    ...Regardless, I stand by my comments and the concepts I illustrated with them; and I stand by and agree with Guy's cautions to newcomers about buying into a system that no longer has an OEM to support it; a system that has no future as far as upgrades and improvements is concerned. If they -- pro or amateur -- still want to buy into that system knowing that, then by all means they are welcome to do so...
    Fair enough. I also stand by my comments and the positions of all the major digital back makers (Hasselblad, Phase, Leaf and Sinar), as they continue to support the Contax 645 with their best digital backs. The same level of support is still available, and there are so many happy Contax users out there.

    I do agree with you that both pro and amateur be cautious with their purchases. I stick with my advice that the Contax should still be considered as a low risk alternative, not only because of its outstanding Zeiss optics and capabilities, but also because the financial risk is minimal, as the price of an entire kit is about the same cost as a single lens in many of the newer systems being offered today.

    I also think you are missing a major point here. It is not that the Contax 645 itself will have no future upgrades or improvements, but the high end digital back to which it is attached will have a future. Therefore, a photographer can put more money into this part of his system that does have a future, namely a higher end digital back. It would allow the use of the latest sensor technology that could offer much higher image quality as a result. In the end, it is the quality of the image file that counts.

    The ability to use high quality Zeiss optics with a higher end, more flexible and capable digital back (like the new P65+ or Aptus 10 backs) is an ideal situation for photographers who are already stretching their budgets. And, a digital back can be easily extended to other camera systems beyond the Contax 645, like the Alpa rangefinders and the various view camera options from Linhof, Sinar, Arca-Swiss, etc.. This is something that the Leica S2 will never be able to do.

    So, I still think the combination of Zeiss optics and a nice digital back will make more sense for many photographers than dumping a ton of money into a fixed and smaller sensor technology from Leica.

  45. #95
    Senior Member PSon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    908
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    145

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I would like to contribute to this thread with pure sincerity to elaborate some information on the Contax 645 system so that those who use this system will benefit from:

    1. About over two years ago when Hasselblad announced the close system to their Hasselblad H system and Sinar/Leaf announced the introduction of the Hy6 protocol, PhaseOne went out and bought all of the remaining Contax 645 inventories. Thus explained why if you own the PhaseOne back in Contax 645 mount and your camera went down PhaseOne will have a replacement for you to work the next day. Capture Integration is one of this company that will service you right. This explain why andershald can get a brand new Contax 645 kit from PhaseOne dealers.

    2. I believe in integration of different systems to make a whole. For example, I find the Contax 645 system to have the best mirror vibration and shutter lag and simply work so will when the condition is required. For example, I can put my Hasselbald Superachromat 2.8/300 on the Hasselblad 200 series camera with mirror up and all and still get vibration from the shutter. I also put this on the Contax 645 body and I get result despite manually stopped down. In addition, to find the Hasselblad Apo Tele-Converter T* 1.4x for the Hasselbald superachromat 5.6/350 FE is next to impossible (eventually found one btw) but the Contax 645 Tele-Converter 1.4x can be used to replace the Hasselblad version simply by using the Contax 645 camera. In addition, the Contax 645 Tele-converter (TC) was half the price of the Hasselblad TC. Another example, I can use the Hasselbad PC Mutar 1.4x Tele-Converter for simple horizontal stitching on both the Contax 645 and PhaseOne/Mamiya 645.

    3. Beside mentally bias but physiologically one choose one system over another system. For example, my hands are not huge (please keep this in the close community here, LOL) and when I used the Mamiya AFD and AFD II, I had a hard time of holding the camera compfortably whereas the Contax 645 is very easy on my hand. This may not applied to other folks such as Jack who is rather a big man.

    4. The Contax user group is not as big as the Leica user group, but they also share similar love for their systems. Like Leica users, I sympathize with the Contax users in that their companies do not treat them right. You can read all kind of stories about Leica. Despite the up and down, the Leica and Contax systems continue to get supports from their users. For example, the Leica DMR is no longer being supported by Leica today but it still holds its value very high. Similar to the Leica system, the Contax 645 system are one of the most in demand system even up to today digital and film markets.

    5. Style and Photography preferences. The Contax 645 system was the first modern Auto Focus 645 systems to have the waist level finder and still one of the two in today market. Thus the system is very useful for product and landscape works. This is why folks love the Mamiya RZ67 system. For example, the Mamiya RB67 and RZ67 systems have extremely bright focusing screen and viewing through the waist level finder is very helpful for photographers to do product and landscape applications.

    Thus the final analysis is within ourselves, the available tools in existence today is very capable to facilitate our applications. One of the areas where we are seeing progress, growth, research and development is the Large format system being transformed into the medium format system to meet the precision of the smaller format size in digital and optic resolution requirement. I look forward to see the coming development of perspective control systems and hope that the new technology will facilitate photographers in these fields for their works. On the same token I continue to respect the past and present tools.

    Best Regards,
    -Son
    Last edited by PSon; 3rd October 2008 at 21:08.

  46. #96
    Senior Member PSon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    908
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    145

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I would like to contribute to this thread with pure sincerity to elaborate some information on the Contax 645 system so that those who use this system will benefit from:

    1. About over two years ago when Hasselblad announced the close system to their Hasselblad H system and Sinar/Leaf announced the introduction of the Hy6 protocol, PhaseOne went out and bought all of the remaining Contax 645 inventories. Thus explained why if you own the PhaseOne back in Contax 645 mount and your camera went down PhaseOne will have a replacement for you to work the next day. Capture Integration is one of this company that will service you right.

    2. I believe in integration of different systems to make a whole. For example, I find the Contax 645 system to have the best mirror vibration and shutter lag and simply work so will when the condition is required. For example, I can put my Hasselbald Superachromat 2.8/300 on the Hasselblad 200 series camera with mirror up and all and still get vibration from the shutter. I also put this on the Contax 645 body and I get result despite manually stopped down. In addition, to find the Hasselblad Apo Tele-Converter T* 1.4x for the Hasselbald superachromat 5.6/350 FE is next to impossible (eventually found one btw) but the Contax 645 Tele-Converter 1.4x can be used to replace the Hasselblad version simply by using the Contax 645 camera. In addition, the Contax 645 Tele-converter (TC) was half the price of the Hasselblad TC. Another example is the I can use the Hasselbad PC Mutar 1.4x Tele-Converter for simple horizontal stitching on both the Contax 645 and PhaseOne/Mamiya 645.

    3. Beside mentally bias but physiologically one choose one system over another system. For example, my hands are not huge (please keep this in the close community here, LOL) and when I used the Mamiya AFD and AFD II, I had a hard time of holding the camera compfortably whereas the Contax 645 is very easy on my hand. This may not applied to other folks such as Jack who is rather a big man.

    4. The Contax followers are not as big as the Leica followers but they really love their systems. Similar to Leica I sympathize with them in that their companies do not treat them right. You can read all kind of stories about Leica. Despite the up and down, the Leica and Contax systems continue to get supports from their users. For example, the Leica DMR is no longer being supported by Leica today but it still holds its value very high. Similar to the Leica system, the Contax 645 system are one of the most in demand system even up to today market.

    5. Style and Photography preferences. The Contax 645 system has the waist level finder and thus very useful for product and landscape works. This is why folks love the Mamiya RZ67 system for example is the bright waist level finder for them to do product and landscape applications.

    Thus the final analysis is within ourselves, the available tools in existence today is very capable to facilitate our applications. One of the areas where we are seeing progress, growth, research and development is the Large format system being transformed into the medium format system to meet the precision of the smaller format size and optic resolution. I look forward to see new system in the horizon but at the same time continue to respect the past and present tools.

    Best Regards,
    -Son

  47. #97
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    David wrote
    Fair enough. I also stand by my comments and the positions of all the major digital back makers (Hasselblad, Phase, Leaf and Sinar), as they continue to support the Contax 645 with their best digital backs. The same level of support is still available, and there are so many happy Contax users out there.

    From Thierry's post the new Sinar 65 back will not work with Contax and are not going to support the Contax mount. This may have changed but i would look into it first with Sinar. But i expect to see as time marches on this could become a common theme among the back makers as the Contax systems get's older and less shooters are using it . Time does march on no matter what anyone says.

    David wrote
    I also think you are missing a major point here. It is not that the Contax 645 itself will have no future upgrades or improvements, but the high end digital back to which it is attached will have a future. Therefore, a photographer can put more money into this part of his system that does have a future, namely a higher end digital back.

    Also if you have to make a change from Contax to another system or any system there is a cost involved with almost any back. For some backs you need to make a mount change that from what I understand about 3k and has to go back to the original OEM to have that done, for Phase if you have a classic warranty you pay a value added you get one for free but the warranty is 3k. I do not know the fees involved with leaf but know there is a cost involved. The Sinar backs you can make the adapter change yourself but they also come at a cost that is not exactly cheap either about 2k from what David Kipper has mentioned to me. Bottom line nothing is free to make a change down the road with the existing back you own. I would imagine the same with Hassy backs that work with Contax
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  48. #98
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    David wrote
    So, I still think the combination of Zeiss optics and a nice digital back will make more sense for many photographers than dumping a ton of money into a fixed and smaller sensor technology from Leica.

    First we do not know the amount of money and let's not speculate because from many sources the number is between 12k and 45k. i also do not agree it will make more sense with a separate back and body, for some obviously if the use of tech camera's will be involved and for many MF shooters this maybe a addition too . For many shooters this maybe the ideal setup and do not care about removing the back or switching systems later. This camera represents many technologies not available in others and the sheer speed of it will appeal to many shooters that want more from 35mm. This on paper as it is today the fastest thing in MF it would appear 1.5 fps is certainly faster than many of the high res comparable backs today. Obviously some of that will improve and has. But also i hear instant review and instant zooming because besides the new Sinar the only back that will do jpeg and raw. leica is also shooting for ISO 1600 and maybe ISO 3200 which be all counts the only back that does ISO 1600 today is the P30 plus. it is a smaller more nimble camera and has at least four leaf lenses slated for release with camera plus more FPS lenses to follow. Now one has a 30mm T/S lens a 24mm FPS lens. i could name other benefits to this system but i think if priced correctly upon release it will sell and sell well. There are many 35mm shooters that want to move up but maintain some what the speed but looking for that extra quality of file. leica glass after 5 years of shooting it is some of the best around , no question. Let's face facts leica is not stupid either and would not base there survival on a whole new line of product if they did not have a good feel for the market and think this would not sell. The DMR and M8 represent some of the best images i have ever seen or shot with when it comes to 35mm, i owned them both and two of each. i would certainly not bury this idea and new line before it hits the streets . i already know many folks if priced correctly are all over this system if Leica has all there ducks lined up correctly. This is a new breed and i think a great idea.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  49. #99
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Guy, it looks like you are getting pretty desperate in trying to label the Contax as dead. While it is true that the entry level Esprit system from Sinar does not currently offer an adapter for the Contax, it is not completely out of the question if there is demand. Sinar has already determined that their Contax based customers are almost unanimously using their eMotion backs, and that they will continue to support that Contax user base on their eMotion system.

    Of course, PhaseOne, Leaf, and Hasselblad all have strong support for the Contax 645.

    As far as changing from a Contax system to another system. I guarantee you that it will be more costly to dump an older Leica S2 system when that time comes. This is because with the Leica S2, you must dump the sensor too (which is where most of the expense is at).

    However, I was not really referring to any mount changing. With the Contax 645 mount, even if my Contax dies for some reason, I am still able to use it with an Alpa rangefinder, Arca-Swiss F monorail, and Sinar P3 systems. None of these other cameras lose their ability to shoot. And, in reality, IFF my Contax body ever dies it does not mean that EVERY Contax body in the universe dies at the same time. There will always be a Contax body available somewhere, at least for many many years to come.

    But you are still not getting the major point. It is not about what your gear will be worth at whatever time, or whether you have to eventually change mounts. It is about getting the best quality images, and preferably at the best price point. The fact is, that a Contax 645 and Zeiss optics with something like a P65+ back will produce a vastly superior image file than the smaller fixed sensor technology from Leica, period. And, if I should ever need to change cameras, I can do so without losing the most important aspect about my image capturing system: the size and quality of the latest digital back sensor technology.

  50. #100
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ... There are many 35mm shooters that want to move up but maintain some what the speed but looking for that extra quality of file....
    Guy, I am sure Leica will be able to sell some of their cameras, and that there will be some happy users. Like I said, every camera has a place. I am just saying that they are marketing to pros, and pros are a little more savvy and discerning about what they are getting for their money. Business is business, and if it makes sense great. Certainly, Hasselblad is not stupid either and will not let Leica take food from their table. As I said before, if Hasselblad introduces a focal plane shutter into their cameras at a lower price point, game over.

    But the bottom line for those professionals who simply want the best image quality, especially landscape and architectural photographers, they will prefer the bigger sensors of the digital backs and the larger image circles of the digital LF lenses. The new announcements of the Rodenstock Digaron-W lenses are more exciting to these folks than the 24mm and 30mm T/S lenses from Leica. Besides, the T/S lenses are somewhat limiting in that they can only tilt or shift in one direction at a time. Professionals typically need to use multi-directional tilts, shifts, and swings, which capability is appearing on the newer cameras from other vendors such as Arca-Swiss (Rm3D) and Sinar (arTech).

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •