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Thread: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

  1. #101
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    I guarantee you that it will be more costly to dump an older Leica S2 system when that time comes. This is because with the Leica S2, you must dump the sensor too (which is where most of the expense is at).
    Well, you cannot guarantee that, because we don't know the future. You can just guess, like the rest of us.

    There are new signs coming from Leica, and it is not clear that we can use the old assumptions any more. Dr. Kaufmann has stated that the price will be between 10.000-20.000, and they hope to keep the price below 15.000. This competes very well with Hasselblad's 31MP system today, so unless something fundamentally changes, they are in the game.

    The other thing that is different is that Leica probably has the best resale values in the industry, so when you buy your new S3/50MP camera, you will get money for the old one, and Leica is making these calculations as well, and they think it is going to work out well for them and their customers.

    They are also building the lenses in a more modular fashion than the bespoke Leica of old, with lenses re-using components, to keep the cost down, so maybe there is also money to be saved by buying Leica lenses rather than Hasselblad lenses.

    This would be a killer strategy for Leica, in fact. If they can keep the lens cost down, through ingenuity, component-sharing and sheer will, then they can compete effectively with *any* MF company!

    Anyway, part of this is still speculation, so let's not write off Leica until they are ready, and their specs and prices are firm.
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    This poster speaks my mind.
    -bob

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Guy, it looks like you are getting pretty desperate in trying to label the Contax as dead.

    The truth is David and everyone on this forum knows your desperate in every comment you have made and your are not worth my time and your comments are becoming insulting and that is not allowed on this forum. i consider this a insult and that is not allowed on this forum PERIOD.
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    The issue here comes down to the meaning of "dead." If it means no longer capable of growing and improving, then Contax is dead. If it means not useful or capable of producing great photos, then it's alive. (And don't forget that even if it is dead, the backs used on it remain alive.)

    I have an ALPA TC. While it isn't dead by either definition, it sure isn't very lively. But it takes pictures okay, if I pay enough attention.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I would suggest that we simply don't use the word "dead" about a system. There are several possibilities here, from 1) still manufactured and fully supported, to 2) no longer manufactured but fully supported, 3) no longer manufactured and conditionally supported (as with the Contax, since the support is not from the manufacturer, to my knowledge), and 4) no longer manufactured and not supported at all. I think the worst case is usually number 3), since there will be dealers with extra parts and ability to repair.
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    How about good old fashioned "discontinued" ?

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    David:

    Have to agree with Guy here. Seriously, it sounds to me as though you feel the need to carry the sword for Contax, no matter what the argument. Setting the semantics of what constitutes a dead system aside for now -- and I like RobMac's moniker of "Discontinued" -- it is now you who has gone over the edge and given untrue information that needs to be clarified.

    To your statement, "all the major digital back makers (Hasselblad, Phase, Leaf and Sinar), as they continue to support the Contax 645 with their best digital backs. This is not true if I understood a recent press release -- Sinar has announced that future support for the Contax body is over.

    Next, "The ability to use high quality Zeiss optics with a higher end, more flexible and capable digital back (like the new P65+ or Aptus 10 backs) is an ideal situation for photographers who are already stretching their budgets. " It should be stated that Contax Zeiss lenses were made by Kyocera in Japan, not Zeiss in Germany -- and anybody that's shot them both will tell you they have different looks. Not saying one is bad or inferior in any way, just different and that should be clarified. More to the point however, is that prices for many used Contax lenses are no longer a "bargain for the budget-minded photographer." Because of the limited supply, many of them cost as much or more than new Hassy H or Mamiya lenses.

    And then, "a digital back can be easily extended to other camera systems beyond the Contax 645," While you may deem this "easy", it is in fact not necessarily economical! Current cost to retrofit a back to a different system is between $2000 and $7000 depending on the program, camera and back. For many photographers, they'll find it easier (more economical) to try and sell off the entire system with the back and buy into the new system directly.

    Then you stated: "It is about getting the best quality images, and preferably at the best price point. The fact is, that a Contax 645 and Zeiss optics with something like a P65+ back will produce a vastly superior image file than the smaller fixed sensor technology from Leica, period." David, this may be your ASSUMPTION, but it is in no way, shape or form a FACT!!! We have not even seen an S2 file yet to make this call.

    And then: "I guarantee you that it will be more costly to dump an older Leica S2 system when that time comes. This is because with the Leica S2, you must dump the sensor too (which is where most of the expense is at)." So are you telling this group you will "guarantee" that statement by backing it with your wallet? I think not, again it is your ASSUMPTION, not a fact... The "fact" is nobody has any idea what the used market will be for the Leica S2... But one thing is for certain, and that is that Leica has historically held the among the best resale values of any camera system.

    So a caution from me as admin going forward: Let's take it down a notch and get back to engaging in polite dialog. Stating opinions is fine, just let's be clear they are opinions and not facts...

    To everybody who has given polite and considered responses, thank you and please continue to do so!

    Carry on,
    Jack
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    OK Jack. Peace time. Sounds good to me. I do remember one of your previous posts where you said we are all big boys here and can take it, but I truly never intended anything personal or insulting to Guy.

    So Guy, if you feel that I have insulted you, then of course I sincerely apologize. Can we shake and move on?

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Jack,
    Quite agree it needs to be toned down a bit. Also, tempering our opinions with a bit of humor never hurts and it makes for a better atmosphere... Most of us have enough stress going on in our non-virtual lives and like to come here for a welcome respite. Let's try to keep it that way.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    David Klepaki, excellent, thank you!

    David Kipper, excellent reminder! An ugly economy and tiresome politics are in the face of most Americans right now, and taking ourselves less seriously and engaging in a little humor could be very good medicine
    Jack
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  11. #111
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Jack,

    I was believing remaining out of this discussion, but am now thrown in by your comment and your claim about what Sinar has said about Contax in a press-release. Let me put it right:

    - Sinar has NEVER issued a press-release concerning Contax, even less so that Sinar will stop to make adapters for Contax 645.
    - Sinar has even never "pronounced" or written the name Contax in this respect.
    - Sinar is STILL providing adapters for ALL its current digital backs, with exception of the newly launched Sinarback eSprit 65
    - Sinar has not stated that they will NEVER propose a Contax 645 adapter for the Sinarback eSprit 65, simply that we will first propose adapters for the Sinar Hy6, the Hasselblad V and H1/H2 and the Mamiya 645 AFD/AFDII. After that, depending on the request, we will see.

    I hope this makes clear that Sinar DOES NOT consider "Contax" as a "dead" (or whatever it is called) camera.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    To your statement, "all the major digital back makers (Hasselblad, Phase, Leaf and Sinar), as they continue to support the Contax 645 with their best digital backs. This is not true if I understood a recent press release -- Sinar has announced that future support for the Contax body is over.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Thanks for that clarification Thierry.
    Jack
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Hi Thierry and welcome back from Photokina. You may recall that I shoot both the Hy6 and Contax 645 with my kit and like them both. I am finding that the Hy6 and excellent Rollei lenses are spending more time on the front of my back than I originally anticipated. I mentioned to some friends offline that I find myself using the wonderful Rollei version of the 110 f/2 quite frequently and, as a result am using the Hassy version of that lens on the Contax 645 (via Mam-1 adapter) less and less. Anyway, this discussion has motivated me to switch back to my Contax 645 for a bit. I do love the 45-90 zoom with that configuration. Also, I'm trying to determine which is my favorite wide angle lens and need to revisit the results I get from the Contax 35mm and Hasselblad 30mm fisheye.

  14. #114
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    hi David, and thanks for your "welcome back"!

    Yes, I do recall that you are using both cameras. I am not surprised that your Schneider/Zeiss glasses "spend" so much time on the camera: the Zeiss 110/2 is a jewel, IMO.

    Cheers,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Hi Thierry and welcome back from Photokina. You may recall that I shoot both the Hy6 and Contax 645 with my kit and like them both. I am finding that the Hy6 and excellent Rollei lenses are spending more time on the front of my back than I originally anticipated. I mentioned to some friends offline that I find myself using the wonderful Rollei version of the 110 f/2 quite frequently and, as a result am using the Hassy version of that lens on the Contax 645 (via Mam-1 adapter) less and less. Anyway, this discussion has motivated me to switch back to my Contax 645 for a bit. I do love the 45-90 zoom with that configuration.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    the Zeiss 110/2 is a jewel, IMO.
    Agreed, that lens gets the full up! I had one and loved using it on my Mamiya/Phase, but had to sell it a few months ago to help fund another lens --- and I missed it so much that I pounced on another one yesterday...
    Jack
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Just not a fan of that focal length. i like the longer 140 or 150mm lenses. Just too close to a 80mm for me.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Guy,
    With the length of my home studio, it is just the ticket.
    I have to shoot from another room with the 150 :-)
    -bob

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Guy,
    I'd love something in that 150mm range as I now have (as Jack calls it) a HUGE, GAPING hole in my lineup between 110 and 180, at least with regard to the Rollei lineup (got it covered with the 140mm in Contax which is a great portrait lens). Am actually on the lookout for a Schneider Apo-Symmar Macro PQ 4.6/150 mm so if anyone has a lead on one of these at a reasonable price I'd appreciate a heads up.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I just find myself not wide enough or close enough with the 110mm with regards to people. For me the 150mm is the 3/4 length lens and my portrait lens but I would rather have a 200 for a portrait lens. I don't crop very often at all if ever and the 150mm is a bit short for portraits with lighting involved . One reason i was not crazy at the proposed Leica lineup is they have a 70mm which is the normal on there sensor than they have a 110mm and a 180mm. i say dump the 110 and make a 130 or 140mm F2 lens and than stretch that 180mm to a 200 because the next lens is a 350mm. To me this gaps the lenses better 70,130 or 140 , 200 and 350 would be my choice. Also I would love them to change there mind on the 120 macro and make it a T/S lens with very close focusing and add some extension tubes for macro. Sort of like the Nikon and Canon 85 and 90 TSE glass that can focus really close but this is a ideal lens for table top. To me this would round it out better although the 180 mm i can certainly use very easily for portraits and corporate gigs. The one that bugs me some is there 110 just needs some more length.

    I should add this is with the P25 and may have a different opinion owning a P30 style sensor with it's crop factor
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    How about good old fashioned "discontinued" ?
    That works for whether or not it is still being manufactured, but still leaves the question of support up in the air. To fully express all 4 possibilites, perhaps "up", "wobbling", "falling" and "down"?
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Guy,
    With the length of my home studio, it is just the ticket.
    I have to shoot from another room with the 150 :-)
    -bob
    Bought a chain saw this morning, needs some workout. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    One reason i was not crazy at the proposed Leica lineup is they have a 70mm which is the normal on there sensor than they have a 110mm and a 180mm.
    Actually, it is even worse (for you): They announced a 100mm lens, not a 110mm. The aperture is still unknown. So, they have a 70mm, 100mm, 120mm, and a 180mm. There is a bit of a gap between 120 and 180, but for you the 180mm would probably be the one.
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Thanks Carsten yes than the 100mm is completely wrong than, just way to close to the 70mm. The 180mm I can certainly put to good use though
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I have been playing with the RZ kit I recently bought. I have never used an RZ or RB system before. The number one surprise for me is just how much I enjoy three things:

    1. The BIG bright waist level finder WOW what a joy
    2. The rotating back - neat when combined with a big viewfinder
    3. The bellows focusing.

    The system was an indulgence for me as even after ditching a few 35m systems I still now find myself with too many cameras and lenses. Each camera can pretty much do what the other can - and I hasten to add pretty much as well as each can.

    These discussions get down to personal preferences, sunk costs, and at the margin working preferences for those who have to earn a living from them and time is money.

    The word 'dead' was probably a bit harsh for some to hear - but I had the opportunity to buy two as new Contax bodies and a complete lens kit ( except not that long glass) I saw in the camera porn post above!

    I have to say that the only reason I didnt go with Contax but instead bought into Mamiya as my second system - was the fact that IF down the track something went wrong with the bodies I felt I would/could be in trouble as no one services them down here in Australia. Oh yes the auto focus was slower and the non rechargeable battery system BUGGED me

    I wish I knew that Capture Integration could have kitted me out with a couple of new bodies. Maybe Lance can put together a full Contax kit for me ? - yes I want all that exotic glass.

    I think that the Contax ergonomics are much better than my Hasselblad H and Mamiya Phase body I have for my hands - I look forward to the Mamiya vertical grip so that I can hold the Mamiya better - my hands are too large for existing grip..even the H balances precariously on one hand...

    So I am now surprising myself and thinking that the Hy6 is something I am interested in - purely because I am so much enjoying the waist level finder in the RZ and the rotating back but I would like to be able to use my existing MFD back(s) on it ..I have had enough buying backs

    Which brings me to the S2 and I am surprising myself - thinking - actually Leica or no Leica - I dont think that I have any use for this in between system. I am thinking that this in between will be perfect for 35mm shooters wanting more and maybe new MF shooters wanting a DSLR type shooting experience - smaller body etc. I think it could sell very well for these reasons and I am hoping it does - because I am a big fan of Leica and wish them well.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Peter,

    I think your last paragraph sums up my feelings re the S2 too. On the surface I think it may not suit me, OTOH I've learned from past experiences to never say "Never" -- at least until I've actually played with one

    PS: If you decide to off the RZ camera and lens kit, let me know what I'll owe you for it.

    Serious,
    Jack
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Actually, it is even worse (for you): They announced a 100mm lens, not a 110mm. The aperture is still unknown. So, they have a 70mm, 100mm, 120mm, and a 180mm. There is a bit of a gap between 120 and 180, but for you the 180mm would probably be the one.
    Carsten,
    There seems to be some different info on the S lenses floating around. As far as can be told from the images of the lenses (?prototypes) there looks to be a 35mm, 70mm 120mm macro and 180mm all done as CS (Central Shutter/leaf) with the 35, 70, 120 all coming in at f2.5. Separately, they show a 100mm lens that is NOT CS, but also does not say FPS (focal plane shutter), plus the 24mm, a 30mm Tilt/shift, a 30-90mm zoom. (I thought I saw someplace talking about a 350mm also, but cannot seem to find that link.)(Found a reference in the DPReview of the S2, where they also say all lenses are leaf shutter, but we know that is not the case.)

    So, it looks like the 24, 35, 70, 100, 120 macro, 180 are the steps, plus the 30 T/S and 30-90 zoom to round things out. This is based on the images posted, stuff others have reported, etc. Interestingly, DPReview say the 100mm is a CS, but on their photo of the prototype, it does not have the CS marking as the other CS lenses do, so I would guess it really to be an FPS lens in the line-up, and among the second batch reported to be released after the S2 and CS lenses come out.

    The 120mm macro is still not the 140-150mm length that Guy is discussing, but at f2.5, it may still turn out to be a pretty good portrait lens, although maybe a bit sharper than some would like. Guess we will find out as it gets closer to release. Hope they do start to post some shots taken with the various lenses for folks to start getting a feel for them.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    DEAD systems - what a life like discussion

    Never thought this could heat up so much

    Just to clarify, I myself owned a complete Contax 645 system and I preferred that to my Hasselblad system. No question. And I still think it is one of the best systems you can shoot with today.

    But I consider a system a dead system, if there is no further development from the original equipment manufacturer or at least a second manufacturer. And thus I consider the Contax 645 a dead system. One could argue that well there are still digital back vendors building backs for this system. Yes there are, but the system itself will never be improved or expanded, in best case repaired. So if I would like to buy a new body, with say a faster AF or more AF points or improved light metering etc.... I will never be able to do this, as there is no further development.

    And I also consider a DMR a dead thing, no further support from Leica, not even new firmware updates. Taken out of the program - period. Which BTW does not mean the R system is dead, as you still can buy this and obviously Leica intends to drive it further with an upcoming R10 (hopefully earlier than in 2 years from now).

    Contrary a M8 is not dead, as it will be also supported for a while and will get new FW updates.

    My logic here is, as long as a vendor still improves or updates a system, as long it is not dead. If this is not the case then it is dead. Which does not mean you cannot continue doing great work with it. And some may like to do so and some others may not.

    So I would not go any further in this obviously religious discussion an I wish everybody who is happily shooting with a Contax 645 system and also digibacks a good time and great success.

    But it will never stop any of these new promising systems like S2 or the Nikon MX (still to be announced) become the future of high quality MF photography, bringing enough new input to this area, to make also Hasselblad and many others rethink their product lineup and pricing.

    Great time for us shooters of these systems

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    there looks to be a 35mm, 70mm 120mm macro and 180mm all done as CS (Central Shutter/leaf) with the 35, 70, 120 all coming in at f2.5. Separately, they show a 100mm lens that is NOT CS, but also does not say FPS (focal plane shutter), plus the 24mm, a 30mm Tilt/shift, a 30-90mm zoom. (I thought I saw someplace talking about a 350mm also, but cannot seem to find that link.)
    The big lens in the photo is the 350/3.5: Leica Camera. One would hope and presume that they will add a 1.4x TC for that.

    Keep in mind that of all these lenses, Leica only has specs on the 70/2.5 and 180/2.5 finished, because those are the only two they have built. The rest were all mockups, and as such, the specs could change. The 100/2.5 or 100/3.5 depending on who you believe, for example, doesn't make much sense. As a portrait lens, it really ought to be a CS lens, and if Leica wants to make a splash with this, they should match the f/2 of the Hasselblad 110mm f/2. The macro will be really sharp, so few will use it for portraits. It is nice and fast for a macro though.
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    The 35, 70, and 120 Macro are all f/2.5. The 180 is f/3.5. These are the first four lenses that will launch with the S2 system and they are all CS lenses. These are all completed designs and will not change. I've seen the MTF charts on these four and they are nothing short of stunning.

    The 24 f/2.8, 30 T/S f/3.5, 30-90 f/3.5, 100 f2.5, and 350 f/3.5 are all FPS lenses, and will be introduced later. No, the specs on these are not finalized yet. So focal length or max aperture could change.

    David
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Good throw out that 100 and make it a 130 or 140mm F2 .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  31. #131
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I did speak with my friends today at leica this morning and we chatted about the S2. Nothing to specific that we did not already hear but it was very encouraging about new Pro service will be developed for there pro systems in the future and that they are getting ready for production and such 4 lenses on launch with more to follow and the system will grow beyond that. They will still be in Solms working on the S2 the new building is not completed yet and won't be for awhile but they did add more employees and more space at Solms with trailer containers for employees and are moving things around to accommodate the production of the S2. But they are very excited about this new line and really are preparing for it in a big way. I was encouraged with our discussion and i think we are looking at a new leica with new goals to be a top producer of Pro gear and service.Thought i would share.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  32. #132
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Thanks Guy - wish I was a pro shooter - then I coudl afford o buy all this cool stuff.!

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