Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

[Guy Mancuso]

I know we actually may see this as a niche but I see it actually more as mainstream in some MF ways. Let's not forget this is a 37 mpx sensor and the most popular MF sensor is 39 in MF. Being a MF shooter let me throw out the plus to it over the MF market and this is the whole market and makes me and others really consider this as a primary.
Over MF
Weather sealing . NO one has this in MF period. Big advantage here
Smallest form factor. Huge advantage
Leaf and Focal shutter. No one has both . Mamiya has some leaf lenses coming. Huge advantage here .
Leica glass. Needs nothing said
Type of Leica glass. T/S lens another Huge advantage. Macro, 24mm wide angle. 350mm
Big sensor. Pretty much the normal now in size, in all honesty this won't matter much when you hit MF and big sensors they will be better than anything in 35mm . I have a 22mpx and will beat anything today in 35mm
High ISO the best there is at 1600 and that's a push with noise. Assume better
FPS no one has 1.5 seconds in this size chip
Shutter lag sounds better will have to see.
Battery life . Question mark but I am assuming better with this sensor
3 inch LCD . Just starting to hit the MF with quality viewing
Vertical grip.I think I read that
AF with slip differential manual. LOVE IT and big advantage than hitting a switch
Leica quality of build .
Some more I maybe missing but you get the point

Some of the cons.
Can't remove back. Not earth shattering but obviously a service issue and can't switch backs
Price . If wrong it won't sell Period. Maybe better said MF shooters will not make a lateral move to it. Priced too high 35mm won't see as a system jump up
Service and repair. It must be Pro level and from talk looks like Leica will do that and hopefully with shared alliance in Phase One which i see as a huge plus if they go this route in sales and service. Remains to be seen how this is handled but at least Leica acknowledges this area. Let's leave in the con area until further notice

Over 35mm. Clear advantages in image quality no question. Cons slower than what folks in 35mm are used too. Many other Pro and Cons but most folks that jump up do NOT need 35mm speed in many cases. I need more espresso to go on.

 

[robmac]

The only 'yeah but' change I would make to the list would be the S&S issue re: Phase. I think the VERY public egg-on-their-respective faces confusion re: the Phase relationship doesn't bode well at all for Phase handling the S&S/distribution side of the S2.

The impression I'm getting is that Phase contributed something (cash or TBA) to gain access to some of the S2 lens design tech for Phamiya. The deal appears to have been put together in a hurry, badly defined between the two partners and the PR side of it just mangled.

I can't see Phase dealers wanting to handle NA pro hand-holding for the S2 if it can be sold by any Leica dealer. Leica dealers (I'm generalizing here as some will go beyond the call) sell the boxes and then when the #$% hits the fan - point the frantic user to a Phase dealer who has NO vested interest in keeping the user happy? They don't get the margin, but all the headaches, frantic phone calls, inventory to ship out overnight, etc, etc.?

At that juncture, the Phase dealer best interests are served by converting the user to Phamiya. A PO'd S2 user having to talk to a Phamiya dealer re: the S&S of his/her S2 is NOT a recipe for keeping the guy/gal in an S2.

I just don't see what is in it for the Phase network - other than honoring an obligation made by HQ in order to get Leica optics.

sadly, Leica is now stuck. If they do an about face, they will infuriate their dealer network - and look like idiots. If they stand pat, Phase continues to have a bad taste in their mouth over the whole deal and I can assure you Phase is likely spitting blood (in a reserved Danish way) over being made to look so foolish.

Leica may acknowledge the need to pro-level S&S and 12 mos is some time away, but at moment they appear to be treating it as large DSLR to be sold by Leica dealers and serviced, albeit maybe better over time, in NJ and Solms.

Leica may start to rework their S&S structure solo but that will take time. Had the Phase relationship been as Phase appears to have understood it, I'd have put it under the Pro table, now I think there is a chance you may see the Phase relationship slowly vanish into the mist re: the S2.

I hope it all works out, but right now I'd call it one BIG con in need of a very fast, very public and very vigorous fix - WELL before the S2 is ready for release (to build confidence).

 

[BJNY]

Thanks Guy for the synopsis, from where did you get the ISO 1600 from?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Leica without testing it yet to full firmware is estimating ISO 1600 or more. This we will not know until release. My bet at least a great ISO 800 but I think the target is 1600 clean.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

The only 'yeah but' change I would make to the list would be the S&S issue re: Phase. I think the VERY public egg-on-their-respective faces confusion re: the Phase relationship doesn't bode well at all for Phase handling the S&S/distribution side of the S2.

The impression I'm getting is that Phase contributed something (cash or TBA) to gain access to some of the S2 lens design tech for Phamiya. The deal appears to have been put together in a hurry, badly defined between the two partners and the PR side of it just mangled.

I can't see Phase dealers wanting to handle NA pro hand-holding for the S2 if it can be sold by any Leica dealer. Leica dealers (I'm generalizing here as some will go beyond the call) sell the boxes and then when the #$% hits the fan - point the frantic user to a Phase dealer who has NO vested interest in keeping the user happy? They don't get the margin, but all the headaches, frantic phone calls, inventory to ship out overnight, etc, etc.?

At that juncture, the Phase dealer best interests are served by converting the user to Phamiya. A PO'd S2 user having to talk to a Phamiya dealer re: the S&S of his/her S2 is NOT a recipe for keeping the guy/gal in an S2.

I just don't see what is in it for the Phase network - other than honoring an obligation made by HQ in order to get Leica optics.

sadly, Leica is now stuck. If they do an about face, they will infuriate their dealer network - and look like idiots. If they stand pat, Phase continues to have a bad taste in their mouth over the whole deal and I can assure you Phase is likely spitting blood (in a reserved Danish way) over being made to look so foolish.

Leica may acknowledge the need to pro-level S&S and 12 mos is some time away, but at moment they appear to be treating it as large DSLR to be sold by Leica dealers and serviced, albeit maybe better over time, in NJ and Solms.

Leica may start to rework their S&S structure solo but that will take time. Had the Phase relationship been as Phase appears to have understood it, I'd have put it under the Pro table, now I think there is a chance you may see the Phase relationship slowly vanish into the mist re: the S2.

I hope it all works out, but right now I'd call it one BIG con in need of a very fast, very public and very vigorous fix - WELL before the S2 is ready for release (to build confidence).

One idea I had was leica sells this through there dealer network with a 1 year warranty. Normal service no loaners , just like the M8 today.

Than add a 3 year warranty for more money bought through Phase as a value added warranty which includes loaners and repair and replacement policy stuff. Plus the normal support we get from them today.

This is just a thought that would certainly make me move on it if the price was correct

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

We also have to hope it works! I can't see anyone willing to put up with M8 type issues with that kind of expenditure and especially the market who will buy it, commercial results orientated photographers who will gladly give up the Leica glass for a camera that works!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Totally agree no question

 

[LJL]

Well, it will remain to be seen if the S2 does work, but personally, the anecdotal comments from David about just how well the 20 prototypes were performing at Photokina is very encouraging at this stage of its development. I am sure there are going to be some issues and things, but hopefully Leica may have learned a couple of things over the past several years: 1) do not release a problem camera, 2) really have it tested and tortured, especially at this pro level, and not just by one or two folks, 3) have a pretty solid rapid response team ready 24/7 to tackle any issues that may come up, and not the "we are studying it" like they did with the M8 (the IR issue was known from the start and Leica severely underestimated the customer needs and reactions, and then responded in a glacially slow manner on the S&S....totally a non-starter if they do that again), and 4) get the S&S and price thing absolutely right from the start.

It is this last point that seems to worry the most folks, especially anybody with recent Leica experience. All of the positives that Guy listed are the things we have been discussing about the S2 from the get-go. To me, it does look like it potentially can fill many more demands than the majority of MF systems that folks are buying into today, and also surpass most of what 35mm DSLR folks are needing for IQ at the larger image size. Still not going to touch 35mm DSLR for speed, AF options, overall system capabilities, high ISO performance, etc., but the S2 is getting a lot closer to what most DSLR folks that are considering MF "really" are looking for. (I would not need 10fps for the kind of image size and quality I look for in MF. I would like closer to 2fps, however. I would not need 45 AF points on the S2, but I would like maybe 5 placed for most practical use. Stuff like that....) But beyond all of that, if the S2 is sold like a DSLR, but priced like a MF back and system, it is going to struggle, regardless of how good it may be. In my opinion, it needs to come in at a price point that is at or below most of the present MF kits, and not too much above the highest end DSLRs ( which we may actually see at new lower prices too, so that makes it a tougher deal).

There is probably little question that the images from the S2 will trounce anything on the DSLR side of things, and probably compete quite nicely with the MF side of things, where it really is more properly playing. However, to be a success, it needs to be available, priced in a way that will get folks into it, have performance and reliability that are top end, have outstanding glass (seems a given), and be supported and serviced in the most seamless and professional manner possible, be that from an add-on warranty option that Guy suggests, or something far more stellar than Leica has ever done before, if they want to handle things themselves (my biggest worry, frankly, as Leica's perception of "stellar performance" in this area is almost unfathomingly far away from what users perceive as "stellar performance").

Not trying to bash Leica at all. I think what they have tossed into the ring is very exciting for sure, and could meet or exceed the needs of a lot of folks now shooting MF and wanting DSLR handling, plus those shooting DLSRs and wanting MF resolutions and image qualities. It has been called a 'tweener category, but honestly, I look at it more as practical professional choice.....IF it can meet those important criteria. I really do not care too much about sensor size and format quibbles....37MP of clean, high resolving capability that will tolerate significant enlargement/cropping, and produce outstanding results seems just about perfect for a lot of needs, including my own. There will always be a need for more, and MF can satisfy those needs for the most part already or in the works, so no worries there. I would venture that most folks really do not need all of the MF offerings, costs, hassles, weight, compatibilities, etc., but that is all there is until the S2 and whoever else sees the lightbulb glowing and starts to move in that direction also. Price, performance and service are going to be the key points, I think.

LJ

 

[Bob]

I am hoping that there is a lot of Phase in the S2 and a lot of Leica in the lenses.
OTOH, the recent Mamiya lenses such as the 150/2.8 are no slouches either.
I have been doing a lot of pixel peeping lately (is this news :ROTFL with P45+ Mamiya 150/2.8 and I am not sure I would ask to improve for my style of shooting.
Weather and dust resistance might be nice, but the sensor on the P45+ is real easy to clean.
A real coups for the consumer would be if the S2 and Mamiya shared the same lens mount. That would make me happy and save a bunch of cupboard space.

If Phase, Leica, Mamiya, and Cambo combine their strengths I might imagine a wonder confluence with a line of backs and cameras sharing a excellent lens, software, and sensor lines with a professional service and support network along with professional options such as shift bodies and cameras that suit the spectrum of missions.

What would be sad to see is two small companies, trying to do it all and failing to deliver before bankruptcy while Nikon or Canon with their superior cash flows, continue to fluorish and ultimately reduce our viable options to one of their idea of what is right for us.
-bob

 

[Marc Wilson]

I think one of the great things about this new camera is that the lenses are being made to match the specific sensor size.
With other db's there is the issue that if you choose one that is not 'full frame 645' then the wide lenses all become less wide, and as many of the new backs that are in the lesser price bracket are of the smaller sensor size this does become an issue where wide lenses are needed...so in some ways you are held to ransome over your choice of back by the focal length multiplier.

 

[Bob]

Marc,
I don't understand. Focal lengths cover an angle related to the image size, assuming that the image circle covers the sensor, you are a slave to physics, not sensor size.
An xmm lens will "appear" wider with a larger sensor and longer with a smaller sensor at the same subject distance no matter if the lens was designed for that sensor size or not.
-bob

 

[LJL]

Bob,
While that is very true, what I read into Marc's comments deals more with matching those focal lengths to the body/sensor from the start as a complete system. In other words, the 70mm f2.5 lens for the S2 is going to yield the same approximate angle of view as the traditional 50mm for a 35mm full frame format, or the 80mm for the 6x6 or 645 MF. Are there any other 70mm lenses that one would drop onto any other MF body?

The other part that I read into Marc's comment has to do with the present "problems" of some the of MF offerings. If you have a body and maybe a couple different resolution backs (16MP, 31MP with microlenses, 39MP), the lenses you need to deliver the same approximate angle of view is different for each back, and at a given distance, some of those options may not even be available. So that very expensive 28mm for example, may not deliver what you want or need to different backs for you system.

Guy's point about not having a removable back is really two edged..... The "problem" is not having something easily removable for service or option. The good part is that the entire system is designed around that given sensor size, which remains somewhat of a constant, and does not require having say a 35mm, 40mm, 45mm, 50mm lens in bag unless you specifically need those different focal lengths, rahter than needing those lenses to achieve a give focal length option with different backs you may mount.

I have to mentally make the shift now with my 35mm stuff. If I want the angle of view of say the 50mm lens, I grab the 50 on the full frame camera, but I have to grab a 35 if I am using my 1.3x crop. The FL does remain a constant thing, but matching one to the angle of view you want is sometimes a real hassle when you are dealing with multiple sensor sizes. I do not have 67mm f1.0 (the 50mm f1.0 Notilux) to use on my 1DsMkII full frame 35mm DSLR to get what I want, and nobody makes anything like that. Conversely, the 85mm f1.2 on my FF 35mm body cannot be matched with anything like it for the 1.3x crop body, so I wind up having to mix and match lenses a lot more than I really like and cannot always get the results I want. The S2 with a fixed sensor size and lenses that hit the most useful FLs matched to that sensor could make things a lot more easy to use, especially if the quality is as high on each lens as we have come to "expect" from Leica.

LJ

 

[Jack]

Again, given what Leica's history has been with us, I have two concerns. First is service support. They really need to get their US act together before I'd ever consider one of these. If it breaks down, I want it repaired, functioning perfectly and back in my hands inside a week tops. If the service is no different than it's been for the M8, forgetaboutit. Second is simply delivery. All the marketing hype and specs sound great, but for me it comes down to hardware and images that prove it isn't just hype; in other words, SHOW ME!

 

[TRSmith]

Disclaimer: My needs and wants are not the same as a working Pro.

But I have jumped through the hoops to get to the other side of the M8 and while it may have been less than ideal, the images produced with it were well worth the trials, tribulations, and yes, even the money.

So, if the S2 can offer me a MF-type solution in a camera I can carry anywhere, and also delivers that special quality I see in my M8 files, I'll be willing to mash through the eccentricities. However, the images MUST have the elusive but still obvious Leica IQ. That to me is the entire selling point for all of Leica's cameras.

 

[Bob]

Bob,
While that is very true, what I read into Marc's comments deals more with matching those focal lengths to the body/sensor from the start as a complete system. In other words, the 70mm f2.5 lens for the S2 is going to yield the same approximate angle of view as the traditional 50mm for a 35mm full frame format, or the 80mm for the 6x6 or 645 MF. Are there any other 70mm lenses that one would drop onto any other MF body?

The other part that I read into Marc's comment has to do with the present "problems" of some the of MF offerings. If you have a body and maybe a couple different resolution backs (16MP, 31MP with microlenses, 39MP), the lenses you need to deliver the same approximate angle of view is different for each back, and at a given distance, some of those options may not even be available. So that very expensive 28mm for example, may not deliver what you want or need to different backs for you system.

--snip--

I have to mentally make the shift now with my 35mm stuff. If I want the angle of view of say the 50mm lens, I grab the 50 on the full frame camera, but I have to grab a 35 if I am using my 1.3x crop. The FL does remain a constant thing, but matching one to the angle of view you want is sometimes a real hassle when you are dealing with multiple sensor sizes. I do not have 67mm f1.0 (the 50mm f1.0 Notilux) to use on my 1DsMkII full frame 35mm DSLR to get what I want, and nobody makes anything like that. Conversely, the 85mm f1.2 on my FF 35mm body cannot be matched with anything like it for the 1.3x crop body, so I wind up having to mix and match lenses a lot more than I really like and cannot always get the results I want. The S2 with a fixed sensor size and lenses that hit the most useful FLs matched to that sensor could make things a lot more easy to use, especially if the quality is as high on each lens as we have come to "expect" from Leica.

LJ

Doing a bit of random calculation
If one assumes that a "normal" lens provides a diagonal angle of view of 47 degrees and from the relationship that
focal length = diagonal/(2*tan(angle/2)) we have:
Model____ w___ h___ d_ normal fl
P65+____ 53.9 40.4 67.4 78
P45+____ 49.1 36.8 61.4 71
P30+____ 44.2 33.1 55.2 63
S2______ 45.0 30.0 54.1 62
Nikon FX 36.0 23.9 43.2 50
M8______ 27.0 18.0 32.4 35
Nikon DX 23.6 15.8 28.4 33

So from this, if one were looking for the same angle of view on various sensors that one might obtain from a 50mm lens on 35mm film it appears that a "normal" for the S2 might be 60mm, not 70mm, however a 70 looks just about right for a P45+
My conclusion is that you get what you get and that you will not escape from a little mental juggling to get to field of view equivalence.
-bob

 

[LJL]

Tim,
That is fair and fine. If Leica is pitching this as a "pro level" offering, then it had better be able to deliver at "pro level" expectations. I think that is what Jack and others are saying here too. If they are looking to field the S2 as an wonderful new thing for the discerning few, fine, pitch it that way, service it to those more tolerant at that level, and see what happens.

I agree with you about the M8. I was one of the first in. I wrestled with all the issues, delays, shipping back and forth, scrambling for glass, filters, etc. I still love the images more than most things produce. I had hoped to incorporate it into my pro work, but honestly, it just does not live up to those demands by a long shot. It does work very well now, but I could not count on it delivering what I needed for quite some time, and would not commit more money to additional bodies and stuff that are needed for the kind of work many pros do. I still take it with me on almost all shoots and do use it a lot, but if I really need to get the shot, it is not my first choice.

The S2 must be very different than that, if it is being billed as a pro level offering. That does not mean that others could not enjoy all it may offer, but for folks needing it day in and day out, through all sorts of conditions and demands, a lot has to work very right and flawlessly for it to become a success at the pro level. The specs suggest it will get there, but as Jack says "SHOW ME"!

LJ

 

[ptomsu]

Bob,
While that is very true, what I read into Marc's comments deals more with matching those focal lengths to the body/sensor from the start as a complete system. In other words, the 70mm f2.5 lens for the S2 is going to yield the same approximate angle of view as the traditional 50mm for a 35mm full frame format, or the 80mm for the 6x6 or 645 MF. Are there any other 70mm lenses that one would drop onto any other MF body?

The other part that I read into Marc's comment has to do with the present "problems" of some the of MF offerings. If you have a body and maybe a couple different resolution backs (16MP, 31MP with microlenses, 39MP), the lenses you need to deliver the same approximate angle of view is different for each back, and at a given distance, some of those options may not even be available. So that very expensive 28mm for example, may not deliver what you want or need to different backs for you system.

Guy's point about not having a removable back is really two edged..... The "problem" is not having something easily removable for service or option. The good part is that the entire system is designed around that given sensor size, which remains somewhat of a constant, and does not require having say a 35mm, 40mm, 45mm, 50mm lens in bag unless you specifically need those different focal lengths, rahter than needing those lenses to achieve a give focal length option with different backs you may mount.

I have to mentally make the shift now with my 35mm stuff. If I want the angle of view of say the 50mm lens, I grab the 50 on the full frame camera, but I have to grab a 35 if I am using my 1.3x crop. The FL does remain a constant thing, but matching one to the angle of view you want is sometimes a real hassle when you are dealing with multiple sensor sizes. I do not have 67mm f1.0 (the 50mm f1.0 Notilux) to use on my 1DsMkII full frame 35mm DSLR to get what I want, and nobody makes anything like that. Conversely, the 85mm f1.2 on my FF 35mm body cannot be matched with anything like it for the 1.3x crop body, so I wind up having to mix and match lenses a lot more than I really like and cannot always get the results I want. The S2 with a fixed sensor size and lenses that hit the most useful FLs matched to that sensor could make things a lot more easy to use, especially if the quality is as high on each lens as we have come to "expect" from Leica.

LJ

Man, what is the problem here - the S2 has a fixed frame size because it does not have a removable back and so a 70mm will always stay a 70mm (speak looks like a 50mm in 35 format). And this will stay like that!

So the big advantage is that you will get used to the new focal lenghts of the S system :thumbup:

 

[ptomsu]

Tim,
That is fair and fine. If Leica is pitching this as a "pro level" offering, then it had better be able to deliver at "pro level" expectations. I think that is what Jack and others are saying here too. If they are looking to field the S2 as an wonderful new thing for the discerning few, fine, pitch it that way, service it to those more tolerant at that level, and see what happens.

I agree with you about the M8. I was one of the first in. I wrestled with all the issues, delays, shipping back and forth, scrambling for glass, filters, etc. I still love the images more than most things produce. I had hoped to incorporate it into my pro work, but honestly, it just does not live up to those demands by a long shot. It does work very well now, but I could not count on it delivering what I needed for quite some time, and would not commit more money to additional bodies and stuff that are needed for the kind of work many pros do. I still take it with me on almost all shoots and do use it a lot, but if I really need to get the shot, it is not my first choice.

The S2 must be very different than that, if it is being billed as a pro level offering. That does not mean that others could not enjoy all it may offer, but for folks needing it day in and day out, through all sorts of conditions and demands, a lot has to work very right and flawlessly for it to become a success at the pro level. The specs suggest it will get there, but as Jack says "SHOW ME"!

LJ

I am confident that they will show you and me and us!

 

[Bob]

When they do I may very well get in line,
BUT,
I love the M8 most as a "shooting camera" and the ergonomics of the S2 will be what sways me after all the other pre-reqs are settled.
-bob

 

[David Klepacki]

I know we actually may see this as a niche but I see it actually more as mainstream in some MF ways. Let's not forget this is a 37 mpx sensor and the most popular MF sensor is 39 in MF. Being a MF shooter let me throw out the plus to it over the MF market and this is the whole market and makes me and others really consider this as a primary.
Over MF
Weather sealing . NO one has this in MF period. Big advantage here
Smallest form factor. Huge advantage
Leaf and Focal shutter. No one has both . Mamiya has some leaf lenses coming. Huge advantage here .
Leica glass. Needs nothing said
Type of Leica glass. T/S lens another Huge advantage. Macro, 24mm wide angle. 350mm
Big sensor. Pretty much the normal now in size, in all honesty this won't matter much when you hit MF and big sensors they will be better than anything in 35mm . I have a 22mpx and will beat anything today in 35mm
High ISO the best there is at 1600 and that's a push with noise. Assume better
FPS no one has 1.5 seconds in this size chip
Shutter lag sounds better will have to see.
Battery life . Question mark but I am assuming better with this sensor
3 inch LCD . Just starting to hit the MF with quality viewing
Vertical grip.I think I read that
AF with slip differential manual. LOVE IT and big advantage than hitting a switch
Leica quality of build .
Some more I maybe missing but you get the point

Some of the cons.
Can't remove back. Not earth shattering but obviously a service issue and can't switch backs
Price . If wrong it won't sell Period. Maybe better said MF shooters will not make a lateral move to it. Priced too high 35mm won't see as a system jump up
Service and repair. It must be Pro level and from talk looks like Leica will do that and hopefully with shared alliance in Phase One which i see as a huge plus if they go this route in sales and service. Remains to be seen how this is handled but at least Leica acknowledges this area. Let's leave in the con area until further notice

Over 35mm. Clear advantages in image quality no question. Cons slower than what folks in 35mm are used too. Many other Pro and Cons but most folks that jump up do NOT need 35mm speed in many cases. I need more espresso to go on.

Guy, just a few observations:

Weather sealing: not that big a deal. Hasselblad V lenses were designed according to NASA standards and have had the tightest tolerances to variation and exposure to environmental stress of temperature and humidty.

Smallest form factor: technically Mamiya 7 is smallest, but for digitally enabled cameras it would be the Contax 645. Hasselblad 201F is the lightest of them all and about a tie in overall volume.

Leaf and focal shutter: Hasselblad has had this since 1977 beginning with their 2000 FC camera, later followed by the more modern 201, 203, and 205 cameras, which work with digital backs from Hasselblad and Sinar.

FPS - Phase P25+ and P45+ are bigger chips and both offer 1.5 fps. Don't you have one of these backs??

I would also add that Leica must offer some kind of investment protection for pros, similar to Phase. How many DMR users did they leave behind....what kind of upgrade guarantees is Leica willing to make?