Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

[Guy Mancuso]

Alright dead maybe a bad choice of words. My bad but when making any purchase this stuff comes into play along with dealer support and such . The Contax is a nice system, almost went there but decided it would not work in the end for me. I may own Mamiya but guy's you know me , I would turn on a dime if something made more sense to me. I have absolutely no problem switching any system out. I also have no brand loyalty to any system. I like all of them for what they are and represent. But I will not steer someone in a bad direction if they have certain needs or wants because i may like something else better that is not my place nor my personal desire. End of story

 

[LJL]

Guy,
I think your comments and suggestions are valid, and I agree that one should take ALL pieces of the puzzle into account. The Contax system may work for some folks, but its lack of support could really become a problem for others. (By lack of support, I am talking about those things regarding readily available servicing, help, etc. There is a large community of folks shooting Contax, and for the most part could be very helpful, but most are not a simple call to a good dealer that can help you immediately. In that respect, any non-supported system can become problematic for folks, even present things on the market that may not have an extensive network to help when needed. In another thread folks were talking about Briese lighting.....great stuff, but if you do not have support, like Profoto and others, you can really be stuck.)

I think a lot of folks understand your "no-brand loyalty" position, and like you appreciate that perspective. Others may have much more deeply invested feelings, and that is fine. (I shot Nikon for decades and really tried to find a viable solution when things went digital. They just could not provide that, so my brand loyalty also got quickly displaced with the "it needs to work for me and my shooting" perspective. The only thing that will continue to hang folks up on things is the possible switching costs, with their accompanying losses. I know that bugs the daylights out of me now, and why I have been slow to commit to anything really seriously at this point.)

There are just a lot more things that folks should consider in their choices of things, so it is good to have a variety of views and perspectives on things. I happen to agree with you on this Contax thing.....very good camera....maybe was a system ahead of its time when at its peak...still useful for many....lacks ability to provide improvements that some may want/need/look forward to....lacks any dedicated support network to get help....still has parts and repairs available, but those will dry up.

So, folks should pick and choose things for their needs and what they can or wish to afford, both financially and from a support perspective. All of this stuff is complicated enough and expensive enough that it can make a very big difference.

LJ

 

[David Klepacki]

... Where in the world does leica discredit the Contax system. PLEASE show me that info. Sorry that one is completely out of the blue. I have never heard leica ever discredit any manufacture in public...

Yes, I did not word that correctly. What I meant was that Leica benefits the most from any notion that the Contax system is dead.

...How do you know the Contax system will produce a better file. The Leica S2 does not exist yet for that to be even compared. Again show me. There is one lens made at this point and no files to even look at . Sorry the Leica will kick a lot of ass when it comes to speed and it's versatility with leaf and focal lenses all in one package and just about anyones else's...

Again, it is not that the Contax system will produce a better file, but rather a Phase back such as the P65+, even if it is on a Contax 645.

... Sure it does not have a separate back but for many folks that will not be a issue look how many P30, Hassy 31 and the Sinar 65 will be sold or already sold. They can't do much with there backs either. So they never come off, this is about the only downside i see if you want to call it that...

At least these MFDB owners can clean their sensors more easily before a shot. In practice, it is so much easier to clean the sensor of a digital back. WIth a DSLR like the S2, you must take off the lens, flip up the mirror, and then poke around with a cleaning swab. No thank you! I would not want any DSLR that does not at least offer some form of automatic sensor cleaning. Even though there is mature technology for this, Leica doesn't offer it.

...Please let's get real here, I know you love your Contax system but the fact is it is a dead system David you can chew around it all you want but that body will never improve. Frankly I like the Contax but that is not the point if i do or i don't obviously you love it at a point that these statements are false. Please let's not mislead the public on this...

I am getting real. My response in these threads is precisely to help other people from being mislead. The Contax is only one of several MF systems that I use, and I am fortunate to be able to use more than one MF system, whereas others may not. I have nothing to gain from anyone deciding to choose the Contax or not, as it is no skin off my back. I do feel that people should think hard about where to put their money, as I see a lot of photographers struggling to keep afloat in their businesses. Such people will be scared into keeping their Contax systems or from buying them as entry cameras, when they are perfectly legitimate and capable to handle professional work. It allows their funding to go towards a more versatile and more modern MFDB such as the P65+ for instance.

And yes, if anyone is happier with a Mamiya or Phase camera, that's great too. Again, it is not so much the Contax 645 that I am endorsing, but rather the consideration that a more capable, flexible and upwardly mobile MFDB can be purchased to give perhaps a better file than the S2 at the same price point.

 

[David Klepacki]

...If the S2 AF is at least as good as my H3D-II/31, and the ISO 800 files are as good, (as good will do, but it promises to be a LOT better and that's a bonus), AND if the flash control is anywhere near that of the H system or Nikon ... then bye-bye Nikon, bye, bye H3D-II/31, maybe even bye-bye Hasselblad 203FE/CFV (if I can stand to part with this thing of beauty.)...

Well, at least you did not say bye-bye to your H3D-II/50 on order.

I am sure there is a place for the Leica S2, as there is a place for all cameras. I find it strange that Leica chose to make only three or four lenses with leaf shutters, and the rest without. Whereas, with Hasselblad H3D, you get the full spectrum from 28mm to 500mm focal lengths (and many with tilt/shift via the HTS), all with a leaf shutter. It seems to me that if Hasselblad ever decides to add a focal plane shutter to their H camera, then the variety of their leaf shutter lenses (which could also make use of the focal plane shutter) would then be a huge advantage for Hasselblad.

 

[ptomsu]

Putting some oil in the fire here - but sorry, the Contax 645 is a DEAD system. It is no longer produced, nor will there be any further developments. Kyocera decided to skip it a few years ago and BTW all existing cameras and lenses they had produced were destroyed and not sold (I mean the ones which were not already at dealers).

No idea why this decision was taken and I personally think it was completely wrong, because the C 645 system was really great, but it was decided by Kyocera.

Of course it may be still a great system for many users, but it will not be developed any further. And thus for me it is dead.

 

[gogopix]

Well,
I am sorry but I can't let David respond alone; though I am likely considered more a Contax fanatic than fan!
Most of the discussion here is just so much jaw flexing, and focusing on DEAD is, as fotografz says, pretty off mark with people still buying it. (and all manufacurers stll making backs for it!)
Is the DMR dead?
Is the M8 (with higher shuuter speed) dead?
Are the early Nikon F bodies DEAD?

Most forget that photographers in the past used bodies and lenses for decade. Hell, even the film didn't change that much.

Yet the same people who talk dead systems harken back to the golden age of photography when the focus was on image making not equipment.

Whether or not the Contax is right or wrong for a person, the fact that it is a discontinued system esp calling it DEAD is a great DISSERVICE to those who COULD be quite happy with it but are frightened off because a preofessional or serious amateur they look to for advice uses scare words instead of facts.

Look at the Contax promoters; they don't call it the best thing since cheesecake; however, we know that there are limited Schott glass components, that classic Leica lenses are well sought after (my god, the prices of the Summarex! LOL) Maybe we see something that is in the Contax that is important and lost- a system that you don't have to worry about, you just use and get good files.

And let's stop this nonesense about supporting Contax prices; I have seen NO evidence of shilling for a Contax sales, and even once, in the face of a 700 WLF sale, I think someone priced it at 400-pretty close to market for comparables.

The biggest issue I have with the Contra-Contax crowd is that they are using unfair emotional issues to disuade buyers and shift them to another system, without even trying, since they buy into the DEAD STORY

and that's what it is; the use of DEAD should itself be a dead story.

Regards
Victor

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Victor please no one is using scare tactics to switch people to a different system period . So let's stop that talk now. The point being made it is a system that has no future in firmware and upgrades to it just like the DMR which you still can get repaired by Leica, the Contax you cannot get repaired by there OEM. Either you accept it for what it is and buy it or not but first time buyers should be aware of what they are buying otherwise it is a disservice to them not to know it's place in the industry and that is what this forum is about and that is helping people. I think the best advice given from the non Contax users is make sure you know what you are buying , get extra batteries and accessories to support the system and even a backup body is not out of the question. That's it there is no scare tactics or anything else , we are not salesman trying to make money here and gain nothing, just folks trying to help out and be aware of what is available to them. Period

 

[David K]

Tempest in a teapot if you ask me.... pretty sure we all know the status of most systems here on this forum. Taking issue with somebody's choice of words is pretty far afield from photography. I'm a Contax guy... not my prime system any longer, but I've been a fan long enough to remember when most of those using that system didn't want anybody saying nice things about it for fear of driving the price of used gear up and out of reach. Anybody else remember that. The more people that are scared away from Contax the better I like it

 

[David Klepacki]

... The point being made it is a system that has no future in firmware and upgrades to it just like the DMR which you still can get repaired by Leica, the Contax you cannot get repaired by there OEM...

This is exactly the kind of mis-information that I am against. Your statement here is entirely untrue. I can give you several cases from my own experience. Last year, I had a Contax TLA 360 flash stop working. It was barely within the three year warranty period....ToCad replaced it with a new one. Also, I sent ToCad my Contax 350 APO lens for CLA. The tech called me on the phone and asked if I also wanted to check any elements for centering/misalignment. The cost was only a few hundred bucks, so I said what the heck, sure. They sent the lens to Zeiss, and it came back like new, polished elements and razor sharp. I also have my bodies checked every year for metering and shutter accuracy, and ToCad has no problem and does a wonderful job. They have ex-Contax technicians who have worked with both Contax and Zeiss for years, all the way back to the RTS series cameras. They are extremely professional, and technically capable with all the proper equipment for repair and calibration (except for lenses, which Zeiss still supports).

So, please get your facts straight before you write such things.

And, regarding your statement about not being able to move forward with any updates....is precisely because no updates are needed. You said it yourself earlier that Mamiya is STILL working on their shutter lag issue. Well, Contax does not have a shutter lag issue and never had one. And this is almost a YEAR now for Mamiya. So, you would be happier with using a crippled camera with shutter lag issues that is "supported", over a camera that is working perfectly even though it is no longer being manufactured. I guess that is your personal choice, but for me, I am happy with what is working perfectly.

Like David Kipper, I am also a Hy6 user, which has its strengths in areas where the Contax does not, like a huge bright viewfinder, rotatable back and leaf shutter lenses. But the Contax camera is still delivering the goods as far as being able to produce the highest quality images, with the latest and highest quality digital backs....and at an incredibly reasonable and inexpensive price point.

The top of the line backs from every vendor, including Hasselblad, Phase, Sinar and Leaf all support the Contax 645. Obviously, the presidents and chief executives of all these companies do not think the Contax 645 is dead. Of course, you are free to disagree with them, but I think their current business decisions carry more weight than your personal opinion about the Contax.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

David, Tocad is NOT the original equipment manufacture it is a repair shop just like the one here in Tempe Arizona that can fix Hassy, Nikon Canon and many other systems

From ToCad website
Note: Contax N Digital, RTS III, U4R, I4R, SL300R T* and TVS Digital cameras and 645 lenses are sent to Contax Japan for estimate, approval and repair. This process can take up to 90 days. An estimate is provided free of cost even in the event the unit is not approved for repair.

90 days to get a lens fixed

David bottom line there is NO OEM making the Contax 645 period. It is nolonger supported by the company that built it. leica is and the DMR is supported by leica in Solms and NJ.

Let's drop the working perfectly please the AF is slower than a turtle on the Contax system. Please have fun with your system on a personal level i really don't care one way or another. If you want to praise Contax that is your decision but it is not being made anymore and that is the very point that has been said over and over and you completely overlook that fact. That is the real fact

BTW the Phase One body has been out 2 months and several of us here have been working with Phase one on some additional firmware and also cutting down the lag time. This is a active system with OEM support

Time to move on

 

[David Klepacki]

David, Tocad is NOT the original equipment manufacture it is a repair shop just like the one here in Tempe Arizona that can fix Hassy, Nikon Canon and many other systems...

Guy, boy you do not know the facts very well here. Tocad is the name of the parent company that bought out the east coast Contax repair center in New Jersey from Kyocera. Furthermore, they purchased ALL of the repair assets and legal rights to support the Contax brand cameras. Let me repeat. ALL of the standard processes, including ALL Contax repair assets from Kyocera in Japan have been moved to this repair center in New Jersey. And, they are the official repair center who will still HONOR ALL CONTAX WARRANTIES.

The technicians are the same qualified and trained Contax people as before. The equipment, parts and processes are all the same. So, just because there is a new parent company does not really change the fact that the service is the same. In NO WAY can you compare these highly trained ex-Contax employees who have the legal means to support and honor Contax warranty to a small mom and pop repair shop.

But, sincerely, I do hope you can get your Mamiya shutter lag problem fixed soon. ToCad has been able to turn around my Contax service really fast.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I am really tired of this David regardless as i said over and over the camera is NOT being made anymore (it is discontinued PERIOD) and if you read my comments that is what i said all along instead of putting words in my mouth and chewing around this fact , who cares if it can be serviced by anyone that was not my point all along it is a discontinued product and i will not recommend it because of that fact and if i do it comes with that clause in my recommendation it is a discontinued product not being made anymore end of story. Tocad if it is the repair center that is great but it can't improve anything and that is what i said all along. Stop putting words in my mouth

 

[Jack]

David Klepaki:

Instead of you and Guy continuing to argue over semantics, please answer these two very simple questions with a "yes" or "no" and I suspect maybe you'll better understand what Guy's points are:

1) Is the Contax 645 body still being manufactured?

2) Are Contax 645 AF lenses, OR Contax-compatible AF lenses still being manufactured by *any* company?

PS: To be clear, I do understand there are lots of places where discontinued gear can get repaired.

Thanks in advance,

 

[David Klepacki]

Jack,

Ask ANY photographer to inventory his equipment and report how much of his gear is no longer being manufactured. Can you honestly tell me that you have not one piece of equipment that you use that is no longer made?

The best example is perhaps the Hasselblad FE lenses. Most of those lenses are no longer made, but the value and demand is still there. Why? Because they produce incredibly beautiful images at a reasonable cost. Heck, Mamiya even acknowledges this fact by recently (in 2008) introducing a Hasselblad lens adapter for all of their 645 cameras.

Even one of the oldest cameras, like the Hasselblad 903/SWC, which has not been made for quite some time, is still very much in professional use. Why? Because it was well made with basically zero distortion, and gets the job done.

So, the answer to both of your questions is "no", but who gives a hoot.

Most photographers don't avoid decent gear at a decent price just because it is no longer made. They acquire the appropriate tools to get the job done in an economical manner.

 

[David Klepacki]

Guy, I am sorry if you feel I am putting words in your mouth, but this is not the case. I have done nothing more than to state the facts about the Contax system and its current mode of support.

It is fine if you do not endorse the Contax camera. I think your position is acknowledged and understood. You have every right to endorse or not-endorse any camera system....we all have that right. You did use the word "dead" to describe the Contax system, and that is what I am correcting. I am not debating my opinion versus your opinion, I am only stating the facts of its continued support, not only by Tocad and Zeiss for repair purposes but by all the MFDB manufacturers.

So, I think we understand each other's positions. You find the Contax 645 to be dead, and do not endorse the Contax 645 because it is no longer being manufactured or upgraded. On the other hand, I tend to agree with the executives of Phase, Leaf, Sinar, and Hasselblad who still recognize its utility among professionals and continue to support the Contax 645, and not to declare it as dead.

 

[Jack]

David:

Nobody is arguing that older equipment is not useful. As for the choice of words, "dead system" means perhaps different things to different people. To me (and likely Guy too) it means a system that no longer has OEM support for repair, replacement or newly introduced *and compatible* bodies, lenses and accessories.

I do own lenses for my Leica M's for example that are no longer made. HOWEVER, if one of those lenses fails and cannot be repaired, I can still buy brand new lenses of the same focal length from the same manufacturer -- OR even choose from several third party manufacturers -- to replace them. Thus this system does not present a "dead-end" to me.

In the case of the Contax 645, a user is relegated to a predominantly used and relatively limited market; there were not many (any?) third party offerings I know of for the Contax 645. (Yes, Hassy lenses can be used in stop-down mode via adapter, but no AF options I know of?) So while a continued supply of working bodies and working lenses is certainly available, nobody can say how long it will last; it will last as long as the stuff that's out there works or can be repaired, and when that used supply is gone, then it's done...

Similar is the Hassy V system. The big difference however is Hassy V has been around for many, many years, and hence there are a plethora of used bodies, lenses and parts still available -- AND a bunch of third-party choices. I do not have any idea how large the used supply of Hassy V is, but certainly considerably more than for the Contax 645 AF. So while it is also close to being a "dead system" it is unlikely a user will run out of replacement parts anytime in the foreseeable future.

In my own MF system, Mamiya, I would say that any of the pre-AF Mamiya 645 bodies and lenses are part of a "dead" system. Yes, the older lenses can be used on the current bodies, but none of the current lenses or accessories can be used on the old bodies. As soon as the supply of compatible used bodies dries up and can no longer be repaired, it's done too.

One final point: Very often a working pro looks to viable and rapid replacement or replenishment of their gear. Should one of my lenses or my body fail and I have a job to use it on tomorrow, I need to be able to get my hands on that replacement right now today, not next week. I can go to any number of camera stores and rental centers in most any major city anywhere in the WORLD, and find replacement gear if needed. That is what it means to me to be using a supported system.

Hope this helps explain my view better!

,

 

[fotografz]

The big difference between a Contax 645, N, or ND and old Leicas or old Hasselblad 500s are all, or mostly all, of them are mechanical. There are all sorts of qualified repair people to keep these cameras running.

IMO, the C645 was a camera before it's time, and has held its own to this day.

However, it's simply to slow AF for those that need that.

 

[gogopix]

However, it's simply to slow AF for those that need that.

AAAHHH. a genuine comment on capability!

Yes, I agree, a bit slow on AF, and you need to be careful that it doesnt find a nifty high detail background to focus on instead of your close subject....I have learned, for example to focus on the ground, depress half, recompose and shoot. Better, pre focus on the spot you anticipate the action. (In my experience, 50-70% of ground balls go to the shortstop!)

But we all make trade-offs. It is why I have pre-ordered the S2, esp for sports...

Now, on repair... I must say I have nothing to contribute... in 6 years nothing has broken (and I have everything, now that I just bought a 220 vacuum back

oops, forgot . I am still looking for a WORKING LCD viewer (the one that fits "N" as well)

I must say though, this thread is unnecessarily straining and may well be closed in the interest of controlling blood pressure!

best regards
(and I believe all here are still only expressing their passion - nothing should be taken personally)

Victor

 

[andershald]

I thought I'd just let you guys know that today I picked up my P30 back and a Contax kit, acquired from Phase One through a dealer. My dealer had been at the Phase One headquarters and was offered to pick me a Contax kit from the shelf, he took one of the boxes that had not been opened, and it was indeed a brand spanking new kit!!! not a frame on the shutter, the little piece of paper saying 'this is the shutter, don't put a finger through it' was still under the body cap.

I have been studying the manual (just because I felt I ought to) and I am amazed at the engineering that has gone into building this camera. Wow, ahead of its time? Ahead of our time, I say. Build quality is impeccable, like a really expensive super car... (not that I have ever owned one of them) but wow.

Now if Phase will allow me to buy a second kit...I am quite certain that I will have a working Contax 645 kit for the next 10-15 years. As for lenses, there isn't a lens I would want that doesn't exist in their line-up.

So I am an extremely happy Contax owner (well, have been for almost 12 hours).

...Oh and not an lcd screen anywhere on that thing, marvelous, I say!

Anders

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Victor go workout and run on the treadmill. I did and feel so much better. LOL

HecK AF on all these MF systems are not anywhere near Nikon and Canon but it get's us there and I think most of them hunt some too. I know mine does..

(and I believe all here are still only expressing their passion - nothing should be taken personally) Agree totally