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Thread: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

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    Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I know we actually may see this as a niche but I see it actually more as mainstream in some MF ways. Let's not forget this is a 37 mpx sensor and the most popular MF sensor is 39 in MF. Being a MF shooter let me throw out the plus to it over the MF market and this is the whole market and makes me and others really consider this as a primary.
    Over MF
    Weather sealing . NO one has this in MF period. Big advantage here
    Smallest form factor. Huge advantage
    Leaf and Focal shutter. No one has both . Mamiya has some leaf lenses coming. Huge advantage here .
    Leica glass. Needs nothing said
    Type of Leica glass. T/S lens another Huge advantage. Macro, 24mm wide angle. 350mm
    Big sensor. Pretty much the normal now in size, in all honesty this won't matter much when you hit MF and big sensors they will be better than anything in 35mm . I have a 22mpx and will beat anything today in 35mm
    High ISO the best there is at 1600 and that's a push with noise. Assume better
    FPS no one has 1.5 seconds in this size chip
    Shutter lag sounds better will have to see.
    Battery life . Question mark but I am assuming better with this sensor
    3 inch LCD . Just starting to hit the MF with quality viewing
    Vertical grip.I think I read that
    AF with slip differential manual. LOVE IT and big advantage than hitting a switch
    Leica quality of build .
    Some more I maybe missing but you get the point

    Some of the cons.
    Can't remove back. Not earth shattering but obviously a service issue and can't switch backs
    Price . If wrong it won't sell Period. Maybe better said MF shooters will not make a lateral move to it. Priced too high 35mm won't see as a system jump up
    Service and repair. It must be Pro level and from talk looks like Leica will do that and hopefully with shared alliance in Phase One which i see as a huge plus if they go this route in sales and service. Remains to be seen how this is handled but at least Leica acknowledges this area. Let's leave in the con area until further notice

    Over 35mm. Clear advantages in image quality no question. Cons slower than what folks in 35mm are used too. Many other Pro and Cons but most folks that jump up do NOT need 35mm speed in many cases. I need more espresso to go on.
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    The only 'yeah but' change I would make to the list would be the S&S issue re: Phase. I think the VERY public egg-on-their-respective faces confusion re: the Phase relationship doesn't bode well at all for Phase handling the S&S/distribution side of the S2.

    The impression I'm getting is that Phase contributed something (cash or TBA) to gain access to some of the S2 lens design tech for Phamiya. The deal appears to have been put together in a hurry, badly defined between the two partners and the PR side of it just mangled.

    I can't see Phase dealers wanting to handle NA pro hand-holding for the S2 if it can be sold by any Leica dealer. Leica dealers (I'm generalizing here as some will go beyond the call) sell the boxes and then when the #$% hits the fan - point the frantic user to a Phase dealer who has NO vested interest in keeping the user happy? They don't get the margin, but all the headaches, frantic phone calls, inventory to ship out overnight, etc, etc.?

    At that juncture, the Phase dealer best interests are served by converting the user to Phamiya. A PO'd S2 user having to talk to a Phamiya dealer re: the S&S of his/her S2 is NOT a recipe for keeping the guy/gal in an S2.

    I just don't see what is in it for the Phase network - other than honoring an obligation made by HQ in order to get Leica optics.

    sadly, Leica is now stuck. If they do an about face, they will infuriate their dealer network - and look like idiots. If they stand pat, Phase continues to have a bad taste in their mouth over the whole deal and I can assure you Phase is likely spitting blood (in a reserved Danish way) over being made to look so foolish.

    Leica may acknowledge the need to pro-level S&S and 12 mos is some time away, but at moment they appear to be treating it as large DSLR to be sold by Leica dealers and serviced, albeit maybe better over time, in NJ and Solms.

    Leica may start to rework their S&S structure solo but that will take time. Had the Phase relationship been as Phase appears to have understood it, I'd have put it under the Pro table, now I think there is a chance you may see the Phase relationship slowly vanish into the mist re: the S2.

    I hope it all works out, but right now I'd call it one BIG con in need of a very fast, very public and very vigorous fix - WELL before the S2 is ready for release (to build confidence).

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Thanks Guy for the synopsis, from where did you get the ISO 1600 from?

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Leica without testing it yet to full firmware is estimating ISO 1600 or more. This we will not know until release. My bet at least a great ISO 800 but I think the target is 1600 clean.
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    The only 'yeah but' change I would make to the list would be the S&S issue re: Phase. I think the VERY public egg-on-their-respective faces confusion re: the Phase relationship doesn't bode well at all for Phase handling the S&S/distribution side of the S2.

    The impression I'm getting is that Phase contributed something (cash or TBA) to gain access to some of the S2 lens design tech for Phamiya. The deal appears to have been put together in a hurry, badly defined between the two partners and the PR side of it just mangled.

    I can't see Phase dealers wanting to handle NA pro hand-holding for the S2 if it can be sold by any Leica dealer. Leica dealers (I'm generalizing here as some will go beyond the call) sell the boxes and then when the #$% hits the fan - point the frantic user to a Phase dealer who has NO vested interest in keeping the user happy? They don't get the margin, but all the headaches, frantic phone calls, inventory to ship out overnight, etc, etc.?

    At that juncture, the Phase dealer best interests are served by converting the user to Phamiya. A PO'd S2 user having to talk to a Phamiya dealer re: the S&S of his/her S2 is NOT a recipe for keeping the guy/gal in an S2.

    I just don't see what is in it for the Phase network - other than honoring an obligation made by HQ in order to get Leica optics.

    sadly, Leica is now stuck. If they do an about face, they will infuriate their dealer network - and look like idiots. If they stand pat, Phase continues to have a bad taste in their mouth over the whole deal and I can assure you Phase is likely spitting blood (in a reserved Danish way) over being made to look so foolish.

    Leica may acknowledge the need to pro-level S&S and 12 mos is some time away, but at moment they appear to be treating it as large DSLR to be sold by Leica dealers and serviced, albeit maybe better over time, in NJ and Solms.

    Leica may start to rework their S&S structure solo but that will take time. Had the Phase relationship been as Phase appears to have understood it, I'd have put it under the Pro table, now I think there is a chance you may see the Phase relationship slowly vanish into the mist re: the S2.

    I hope it all works out, but right now I'd call it one BIG con in need of a very fast, very public and very vigorous fix - WELL before the S2 is ready for release (to build confidence).
    One idea I had was leica sells this through there dealer network with a 1 year warranty. Normal service no loaners , just like the M8 today.

    Than add a 3 year warranty for more money bought through Phase as a value added warranty which includes loaners and repair and replacement policy stuff. Plus the normal support we get from them today.

    This is just a thought that would certainly make me move on it if the price was correct
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    We also have to hope it works! I can't see anyone willing to put up with M8 type issues with that kind of expenditure and especially the market who will buy it, commercial results orientated photographers who will gladly give up the Leica glass for a camera that works!
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Totally agree no question
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Well, it will remain to be seen if the S2 does work, but personally, the anecdotal comments from David about just how well the 20 prototypes were performing at Photokina is very encouraging at this stage of its development. I am sure there are going to be some issues and things, but hopefully Leica may have learned a couple of things over the past several years: 1) do not release a problem camera, 2) really have it tested and tortured, especially at this pro level, and not just by one or two folks, 3) have a pretty solid rapid response team ready 24/7 to tackle any issues that may come up, and not the "we are studying it" like they did with the M8 (the IR issue was known from the start and Leica severely underestimated the customer needs and reactions, and then responded in a glacially slow manner on the S&S....totally a non-starter if they do that again), and 4) get the S&S and price thing absolutely right from the start.

    It is this last point that seems to worry the most folks, especially anybody with recent Leica experience. All of the positives that Guy listed are the things we have been discussing about the S2 from the get-go. To me, it does look like it potentially can fill many more demands than the majority of MF systems that folks are buying into today, and also surpass most of what 35mm DSLR folks are needing for IQ at the larger image size. Still not going to touch 35mm DSLR for speed, AF options, overall system capabilities, high ISO performance, etc., but the S2 is getting a lot closer to what most DSLR folks that are considering MF "really" are looking for. (I would not need 10fps for the kind of image size and quality I look for in MF. I would like closer to 2fps, however. I would not need 45 AF points on the S2, but I would like maybe 5 placed for most practical use. Stuff like that....) But beyond all of that, if the S2 is sold like a DSLR, but priced like a MF back and system, it is going to struggle, regardless of how good it may be. In my opinion, it needs to come in at a price point that is at or below most of the present MF kits, and not too much above the highest end DSLRs ( which we may actually see at new lower prices too, so that makes it a tougher deal).

    There is probably little question that the images from the S2 will trounce anything on the DSLR side of things, and probably compete quite nicely with the MF side of things, where it really is more properly playing. However, to be a success, it needs to be available, priced in a way that will get folks into it, have performance and reliability that are top end, have outstanding glass (seems a given), and be supported and serviced in the most seamless and professional manner possible, be that from an add-on warranty option that Guy suggests, or something far more stellar than Leica has ever done before, if they want to handle things themselves (my biggest worry, frankly, as Leica's perception of "stellar performance" in this area is almost unfathomingly far away from what users perceive as "stellar performance").

    Not trying to bash Leica at all. I think what they have tossed into the ring is very exciting for sure, and could meet or exceed the needs of a lot of folks now shooting MF and wanting DSLR handling, plus those shooting DLSRs and wanting MF resolutions and image qualities. It has been called a 'tweener category, but honestly, I look at it more as practical professional choice.....IF it can meet those important criteria. I really do not care too much about sensor size and format quibbles....37MP of clean, high resolving capability that will tolerate significant enlargement/cropping, and produce outstanding results seems just about perfect for a lot of needs, including my own. There will always be a need for more, and MF can satisfy those needs for the most part already or in the works, so no worries there. I would venture that most folks really do not need all of the MF offerings, costs, hassles, weight, compatibilities, etc., but that is all there is until the S2 and whoever else sees the lightbulb glowing and starts to move in that direction also. Price, performance and service are going to be the key points, I think.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I am hoping that there is a lot of Phase in the S2 and a lot of Leica in the lenses.
    OTOH, the recent Mamiya lenses such as the 150/2.8 are no slouches either.
    I have been doing a lot of pixel peeping lately (is this news ) with P45+ Mamiya 150/2.8 and I am not sure I would ask to improve for my style of shooting.
    Weather and dust resistance might be nice, but the sensor on the P45+ is real easy to clean.
    A real coups for the consumer would be if the S2 and Mamiya shared the same lens mount. That would make me happy and save a bunch of cupboard space.

    If Phase, Leica, Mamiya, and Cambo combine their strengths I might imagine a wonder confluence with a line of backs and cameras sharing a excellent lens, software, and sensor lines with a professional service and support network along with professional options such as shift bodies and cameras that suit the spectrum of missions.

    What would be sad to see is two small companies, trying to do it all and failing to deliver before bankruptcy while Nikon or Canon with their superior cash flows, continue to fluorish and ultimately reduce our viable options to one of their idea of what is right for us.
    -bob

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I think one of the great things about this new camera is that the lenses are being made to match the specific sensor size.
    With other db's there is the issue that if you choose one that is not 'full frame 645' then the wide lenses all become less wide, and as many of the new backs that are in the lesser price bracket are of the smaller sensor size this does become an issue where wide lenses are needed...so in some ways you are held to ransome over your choice of back by the focal length multiplier.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Marc,
    I don't understand. Focal lengths cover an angle related to the image size, assuming that the image circle covers the sensor, you are a slave to physics, not sensor size.
    An xmm lens will "appear" wider with a larger sensor and longer with a smaller sensor at the same subject distance no matter if the lens was designed for that sensor size or not.
    -bob

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Bob,
    While that is very true, what I read into Marc's comments deals more with matching those focal lengths to the body/sensor from the start as a complete system. In other words, the 70mm f2.5 lens for the S2 is going to yield the same approximate angle of view as the traditional 50mm for a 35mm full frame format, or the 80mm for the 6x6 or 645 MF. Are there any other 70mm lenses that one would drop onto any other MF body?

    The other part that I read into Marc's comment has to do with the present "problems" of some the of MF offerings. If you have a body and maybe a couple different resolution backs (16MP, 31MP with microlenses, 39MP), the lenses you need to deliver the same approximate angle of view is different for each back, and at a given distance, some of those options may not even be available. So that very expensive 28mm for example, may not deliver what you want or need to different backs for you system.

    Guy's point about not having a removable back is really two edged..... The "problem" is not having something easily removable for service or option. The good part is that the entire system is designed around that given sensor size, which remains somewhat of a constant, and does not require having say a 35mm, 40mm, 45mm, 50mm lens in bag unless you specifically need those different focal lengths, rahter than needing those lenses to achieve a give focal length option with different backs you may mount.

    I have to mentally make the shift now with my 35mm stuff. If I want the angle of view of say the 50mm lens, I grab the 50 on the full frame camera, but I have to grab a 35 if I am using my 1.3x crop. The FL does remain a constant thing, but matching one to the angle of view you want is sometimes a real hassle when you are dealing with multiple sensor sizes. I do not have 67mm f1.0 (the 50mm f1.0 Notilux) to use on my 1DsMkII full frame 35mm DSLR to get what I want, and nobody makes anything like that. Conversely, the 85mm f1.2 on my FF 35mm body cannot be matched with anything like it for the 1.3x crop body, so I wind up having to mix and match lenses a lot more than I really like and cannot always get the results I want. The S2 with a fixed sensor size and lenses that hit the most useful FLs matched to that sensor could make things a lot more easy to use, especially if the quality is as high on each lens as we have come to "expect" from Leica.

    LJ
    Last edited by LJL; 28th September 2008 at 10:27.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Again, given what Leica's history has been with us, I have two concerns. First is service support. They really need to get their US act together before I'd ever consider one of these. If it breaks down, I want it repaired, functioning perfectly and back in my hands inside a week tops. If the service is no different than it's been for the M8, forgetaboutit. Second is simply delivery. All the marketing hype and specs sound great, but for me it comes down to hardware and images that prove it isn't just hype; in other words, SHOW ME!
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Disclaimer: My needs and wants are not the same as a working Pro.

    But I have jumped through the hoops to get to the other side of the M8 and while it may have been less than ideal, the images produced with it were well worth the trials, tribulations, and yes, even the money.

    So, if the S2 can offer me a MF-type solution in a camera I can carry anywhere, and also delivers that special quality I see in my M8 files, I'll be willing to mash through the eccentricities. However, the images MUST have the elusive but still obvious Leica IQ. That to me is the entire selling point for all of Leica's cameras.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Bob,
    While that is very true, what I read into Marc's comments deals more with matching those focal lengths to the body/sensor from the start as a complete system. In other words, the 70mm f2.5 lens for the S2 is going to yield the same approximate angle of view as the traditional 50mm for a 35mm full frame format, or the 80mm for the 6x6 or 645 MF. Are there any other 70mm lenses that one would drop onto any other MF body?

    The other part that I read into Marc's comment has to do with the present "problems" of some the of MF offerings. If you have a body and maybe a couple different resolution backs (16MP, 31MP with microlenses, 39MP), the lenses you need to deliver the same approximate angle of view is different for each back, and at a given distance, some of those options may not even be available. So that very expensive 28mm for example, may not deliver what you want or need to different backs for you system.

    --snip--

    I have to mentally make the shift now with my 35mm stuff. If I want the angle of view of say the 50mm lens, I grab the 50 on the full frame camera, but I have to grab a 35 if I am using my 1.3x crop. The FL does remain a constant thing, but matching one to the angle of view you want is sometimes a real hassle when you are dealing with multiple sensor sizes. I do not have 67mm f1.0 (the 50mm f1.0 Notilux) to use on my 1DsMkII full frame 35mm DSLR to get what I want, and nobody makes anything like that. Conversely, the 85mm f1.2 on my FF 35mm body cannot be matched with anything like it for the 1.3x crop body, so I wind up having to mix and match lenses a lot more than I really like and cannot always get the results I want. The S2 with a fixed sensor size and lenses that hit the most useful FLs matched to that sensor could make things a lot more easy to use, especially if the quality is as high on each lens as we have come to "expect" from Leica.

    LJ
    Doing a bit of random calculation
    If one assumes that a "normal" lens provides a diagonal angle of view of 47 degrees and from the relationship that
    focal length = diagonal/(2*tan(angle/2)) we have:
    Model____ w___ h___ d_ normal fl
    P65+____ 53.9 40.4 67.4 78
    P45+____ 49.1 36.8 61.4 71
    P30+____ 44.2 33.1 55.2 63
    S2______ 45.0 30.0 54.1 62
    Nikon FX 36.0 23.9 43.2 50
    M8______ 27.0 18.0 32.4 35
    Nikon DX 23.6 15.8 28.4 33

    So from this, if one were looking for the same angle of view on various sensors that one might obtain from a 50mm lens on 35mm film it appears that a "normal" for the S2 might be 60mm, not 70mm, however a 70 looks just about right for a P45+
    My conclusion is that you get what you get and that you will not escape from a little mental juggling to get to field of view equivalence.
    -bob

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Tim,
    That is fair and fine. If Leica is pitching this as a "pro level" offering, then it had better be able to deliver at "pro level" expectations. I think that is what Jack and others are saying here too. If they are looking to field the S2 as an wonderful new thing for the discerning few, fine, pitch it that way, service it to those more tolerant at that level, and see what happens.

    I agree with you about the M8. I was one of the first in. I wrestled with all the issues, delays, shipping back and forth, scrambling for glass, filters, etc. I still love the images more than most things produce. I had hoped to incorporate it into my pro work, but honestly, it just does not live up to those demands by a long shot. It does work very well now, but I could not count on it delivering what I needed for quite some time, and would not commit more money to additional bodies and stuff that are needed for the kind of work many pros do. I still take it with me on almost all shoots and do use it a lot, but if I really need to get the shot, it is not my first choice.

    The S2 must be very different than that, if it is being billed as a pro level offering. That does not mean that others could not enjoy all it may offer, but for folks needing it day in and day out, through all sorts of conditions and demands, a lot has to work very right and flawlessly for it to become a success at the pro level. The specs suggest it will get there, but as Jack says "SHOW ME"!

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Bob,
    While that is very true, what I read into Marc's comments deals more with matching those focal lengths to the body/sensor from the start as a complete system. In other words, the 70mm f2.5 lens for the S2 is going to yield the same approximate angle of view as the traditional 50mm for a 35mm full frame format, or the 80mm for the 6x6 or 645 MF. Are there any other 70mm lenses that one would drop onto any other MF body?

    The other part that I read into Marc's comment has to do with the present "problems" of some the of MF offerings. If you have a body and maybe a couple different resolution backs (16MP, 31MP with microlenses, 39MP), the lenses you need to deliver the same approximate angle of view is different for each back, and at a given distance, some of those options may not even be available. So that very expensive 28mm for example, may not deliver what you want or need to different backs for you system.

    Guy's point about not having a removable back is really two edged..... The "problem" is not having something easily removable for service or option. The good part is that the entire system is designed around that given sensor size, which remains somewhat of a constant, and does not require having say a 35mm, 40mm, 45mm, 50mm lens in bag unless you specifically need those different focal lengths, rahter than needing those lenses to achieve a give focal length option with different backs you may mount.

    I have to mentally make the shift now with my 35mm stuff. If I want the angle of view of say the 50mm lens, I grab the 50 on the full frame camera, but I have to grab a 35 if I am using my 1.3x crop. The FL does remain a constant thing, but matching one to the angle of view you want is sometimes a real hassle when you are dealing with multiple sensor sizes. I do not have 67mm f1.0 (the 50mm f1.0 Notilux) to use on my 1DsMkII full frame 35mm DSLR to get what I want, and nobody makes anything like that. Conversely, the 85mm f1.2 on my FF 35mm body cannot be matched with anything like it for the 1.3x crop body, so I wind up having to mix and match lenses a lot more than I really like and cannot always get the results I want. The S2 with a fixed sensor size and lenses that hit the most useful FLs matched to that sensor could make things a lot more easy to use, especially if the quality is as high on each lens as we have come to "expect" from Leica.

    LJ
    Man, what is the problem here - the S2 has a fixed frame size because it does not have a removable back and so a 70mm will always stay a 70mm (speak looks like a 50mm in 35 format). And this will stay like that!

    So the big advantage is that you will get used to the new focal lenghts of the S system

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Tim,
    That is fair and fine. If Leica is pitching this as a "pro level" offering, then it had better be able to deliver at "pro level" expectations. I think that is what Jack and others are saying here too. If they are looking to field the S2 as an wonderful new thing for the discerning few, fine, pitch it that way, service it to those more tolerant at that level, and see what happens.

    I agree with you about the M8. I was one of the first in. I wrestled with all the issues, delays, shipping back and forth, scrambling for glass, filters, etc. I still love the images more than most things produce. I had hoped to incorporate it into my pro work, but honestly, it just does not live up to those demands by a long shot. It does work very well now, but I could not count on it delivering what I needed for quite some time, and would not commit more money to additional bodies and stuff that are needed for the kind of work many pros do. I still take it with me on almost all shoots and do use it a lot, but if I really need to get the shot, it is not my first choice.

    The S2 must be very different than that, if it is being billed as a pro level offering. That does not mean that others could not enjoy all it may offer, but for folks needing it day in and day out, through all sorts of conditions and demands, a lot has to work very right and flawlessly for it to become a success at the pro level. The specs suggest it will get there, but as Jack says "SHOW ME"!

    LJ
    I am confident that they will show you and me and us!

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    When they do I may very well get in line,
    BUT,
    I love the M8 most as a "shooting camera" and the ergonomics of the S2 will be what sways me after all the other pre-reqs are settled.
    -bob

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I know we actually may see this as a niche but I see it actually more as mainstream in some MF ways. Let's not forget this is a 37 mpx sensor and the most popular MF sensor is 39 in MF. Being a MF shooter let me throw out the plus to it over the MF market and this is the whole market and makes me and others really consider this as a primary.
    Over MF
    Weather sealing . NO one has this in MF period. Big advantage here
    Smallest form factor. Huge advantage
    Leaf and Focal shutter. No one has both . Mamiya has some leaf lenses coming. Huge advantage here .
    Leica glass. Needs nothing said
    Type of Leica glass. T/S lens another Huge advantage. Macro, 24mm wide angle. 350mm
    Big sensor. Pretty much the normal now in size, in all honesty this won't matter much when you hit MF and big sensors they will be better than anything in 35mm . I have a 22mpx and will beat anything today in 35mm
    High ISO the best there is at 1600 and that's a push with noise. Assume better
    FPS no one has 1.5 seconds in this size chip
    Shutter lag sounds better will have to see.
    Battery life . Question mark but I am assuming better with this sensor
    3 inch LCD . Just starting to hit the MF with quality viewing
    Vertical grip.I think I read that
    AF with slip differential manual. LOVE IT and big advantage than hitting a switch
    Leica quality of build .
    Some more I maybe missing but you get the point

    Some of the cons.
    Can't remove back. Not earth shattering but obviously a service issue and can't switch backs
    Price . If wrong it won't sell Period. Maybe better said MF shooters will not make a lateral move to it. Priced too high 35mm won't see as a system jump up
    Service and repair. It must be Pro level and from talk looks like Leica will do that and hopefully with shared alliance in Phase One which i see as a huge plus if they go this route in sales and service. Remains to be seen how this is handled but at least Leica acknowledges this area. Let's leave in the con area until further notice

    Over 35mm. Clear advantages in image quality no question. Cons slower than what folks in 35mm are used too. Many other Pro and Cons but most folks that jump up do NOT need 35mm speed in many cases. I need more espresso to go on.
    Guy, just a few observations:

    Weather sealing: not that big a deal. Hasselblad V lenses were designed according to NASA standards and have had the tightest tolerances to variation and exposure to environmental stress of temperature and humidty.

    Smallest form factor: technically Mamiya 7 is smallest, but for digitally enabled cameras it would be the Contax 645. Hasselblad 201F is the lightest of them all and about a tie in overall volume.

    Leaf and focal shutter: Hasselblad has had this since 1977 beginning with their 2000 FC camera, later followed by the more modern 201, 203, and 205 cameras, which work with digital backs from Hasselblad and Sinar.

    FPS - Phase P25+ and P45+ are bigger chips and both offer 1.5 fps. Don't you have one of these backs??

    I would also add that Leica must offer some kind of investment protection for pros, similar to Phase. How many DMR users did they leave behind....what kind of upgrade guarantees is Leica willing to make?

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Man, what is the problem here - the S2 has a fixed frame size because it does not have a removable back and so a 70mm will always stay a 70mm (speak looks like a 50mm in 35 format). And this will stay like that!

    So the big advantage is that you will get used to the new focal lenghts of the S system
    Peter,
    I really never saw this as an issue at all. Like your comment, you just set yourself up to shoot the S system and be done with it. One of the bigger hassles I read about is folks trying to fit other glass to their differing backs and systems. Even Hasselblad has some caveats on things. So in my mind, with the fixed sensor size of the S2, you do just accommodate your shooting to work within its system of available glass. This was never an issue with 35mm either. Only became a "problem" when the APS-C and APS-H sensors were introduced, and folks had to deal with EF-S, DX and whatever other glass they needed to achieve what they wanted. As long as there is only one sensors size, it makes getting used to things so much more simple.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Guy, just a few observations:

    Weather sealing: not that big a deal. Hasselblad V lenses were designed according to NASA standards and have had the tightest tolerances to variation and exposure to environmental stress of temperature and humidty.

    Smallest form factor: technically Mamiya 7 is smallest, but for digitally enabled cameras it would be the Contax 645. Hasselblad 201F is the lightest of them all and about a tie in overall volume.

    Leaf and focal shutter: Hasselblad has had this since 1977 beginning with their 2000 FC camera, later followed by the more modern 201, 203, and 205 cameras, which work with digital backs from Hasselblad and Sinar.

    FPS - Phase P25+ and P45+ are bigger chips and both offer 1.5 fps. Don't you have one of these backs??

    I would also add that Leica must offer some kind of investment protection for pros, similar to Phase. How many DMR users did they leave behind....what kind of upgrade guarantees is Leica willing to make?
    David my back is 1 frame every 1.5 seconds , means i have to wait 1.5 seconds. This shoots at 1.5 frames per seconds, like a canon can shoot 5 fps. It's different, this can shoot within 1 seconds 1.5 times. Reality is in 2 seconds it can get 3 frames. My back to get 3 frames it will take 4.5 seconds to get that.

    I can't count the Contax it is a dead system. So how can we really count it when even Sinar will not support it now.

    Does Hassy have 1/4000 focal plane shutter. I don't think it does. This has that plus leaf capability in most of there lenses.

    Hassy V system maybe waterproof but not a mainstream body anymore with digital the H3 is and it is not waterproof.
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    David my back is 1 frame every 1.5 seconds , means i have to wait 1.5 seconds. This shoots at 1.5 frames per seconds, like a canon can shoot 5 fps. It's different, this can shoot within 1 seconds 1.5 times. Reality is in 2 seconds it can get 3 frames. My back to get 3 frames it will take 4.5 seconds to get that.

    I can't count the Contax it is a dead system. So how can we really count it when even Sinar will not support it now.

    Does Hassy have 1/4000 focal plane shutter. I don't think it does. This has that plus leaf capability in most of there lenses.

    Hassy V system maybe waterproof but not a mainstream body anymore with digital the H3 is and it is not waterproof.
    Well, I disagree that Contax is a dead system. There is still plenty of life in it, and many happy users out there. Contrary to your statement, Sinar indeed supports the Contax with their eMotion backs. Sinar decided to market differently with their new entry level backs. Also, with the Contax 645 and Hasselblad V cameras, you can still get 60MP resolution with the Phase P65+, something not even the latest Hy6 or Leaf AFi cameras can get.

    The Hassy 203 and 205 cameras can get 1/2000 with their focal plane shutter. This is plenty for many folks. And, of course, you can still switch to using the leaf shutter in the lens whenever it is needed.

    As far as waterproof, I guess that could appeal to some folks. However, the Hasselblad, Rollei and Contax cameras have been through just about every environmental extreme from rainforests to K2 blizzard conditions, and they brought home the goods. I think the majority of people have had no real problems keeping their gear dry.

    Overall, I think these systems have stood the test of time. It seems more economical to stay with something proven unless you absolutely need something new....and are wiling to pay the price.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I agree with some points David but dead is dead there is no future with firmware and more product coming from it and such. Classic is one thing but most are not going for classic gear anymore. They want the new backs and new bodies to go with them. HY6, Phase , Hassy H, Leaf body are all the modern bodies that would take up most of the market now.
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I agree with some points David but dead is dead there is no future with firmware and more product coming from it and such. Classic is one thing but most are not going for classic gear anymore. They want the new backs and new bodies to go with them. HY6, Phase , Hassy H, Leaf body are all the modern bodies that would take up most of the market now.
    Guy, the economics of cash flow must be considered as well. The investment for any of these newer bodies and lenses will be quite considerable, ESPECIALLY the Leica brand. A Contax 645 kit will cost only about $4K for a body and three AF lenses. This is about the same (or less) than the cost of a single AF lens in any of these new systems, ESPECIALLY the Leica brand.

    The Contax still has its place in the MF market. It allows people who may have to struggle a bit in affording their new digital backs, to put their money into a good back and use the less expensive but excellent Contax/Zeiss 645AF kit. This will limit their financial risk. Then, when their cash flow stabilizes, they can always buy the newer gear, if and when they wish.

    The Contax is far from dead. It is a great way to staive off the expense burden that a new camera system introduces all at once, while still allowing a very high quality capture device. Again, as an example, a Contax 645 kit with a P65+ will cost less than a Leica S2 system, but will be able to benefit from the latest image capturing technology of these new Phase backs.

    Furthermore, when I wish to change camera systems in the future, I can dump the Contax 645 but I still have a 60MP full frame P65+. When it comes time to get a new Leica, maybe a later model S3, .... well that is what I would call dead, the S2. How much of that $30K 37MP Leica S2 body do you think will retain its value when that time comes?
    Last edited by David Klepacki; 28th September 2008 at 14:54.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Well I don't think that leica will be anywhere near 30k and most likely priced right at 15 or 16k with lens. Anything more than that it won't sell to Pro's at least. I realize the Contax for what it is but after time you want to switch that mount either you pay up front with warranty and/or do it after the warranty . Not cheap either, but I agree as a first time buyer a easier way to get in. The Leica does have some serious pluses to it though. Also i never known anyone really taking a bath on Leica gear . I sold both systems the DMR and M8's and i did very well on resale. The S maybe different because the sensor is in the body. Leica has been around forever and weathered many financial storms and has more money behind it than folks really think it does.
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    I think that the Leica S2 is a closed system with 'benefits'. The system is currently a proven? prototype system accordign to some hands on Photokina reviews...

    The major issue that Leica faces is customer distrust of their ability to deliver a working system which can match existing excellent MF systems.

    Regarding Leica dealer network - what have they actually achieved for Leica anyway? this dealer network is designed to deal with M series cameras etc - NOT a professional system camera which the S2 is apparently aimed at.

    Therefore I see a Phase relationship being very much in Lieca's best interests - if Phase could really be bothered. and then i ask myself - what is really in it for Phase One anyway?

    There are many things that Leica has to get right - things which existing systems - already DO GET RIGHT.

    If the S2 can deliver all the functionality of a DSLR as well as deliver the fat megapixel power of a MFD system -it will be a winner and get some ( many?) sales BuT it wont replace a MFD back for many uses - in particular off camera different platform functionality.

    I would rather have a back that i can use on a view camera, my Alpa and other systems for example - than just a DSLR on steriods. Therefore IF I buy an S2 I would still be keeping my MFD back(s) - and then I ask myself - so what woudl I use this S2 for anyway? hand holding 40 megapixels is ok with lights - hand holding with high ISO may stack p ok for internret viewing or when shooting FAT light - but it isnt teh kind of camera I woudl take out for street shooting late at night etc

    Regarding waterproofing - this stuff really gets my goat - no camera is 'waterproof' - the sooner people stop believing marketing hype and get sensible - the sooner we can move forward with realistic expectations.

    Also I am not convinced that a camera can deliver high ISO, high frame rates, weather proofing, a gazillion useless custom functions and a sound, solid dependable workflow - all in abody the size of a D700. IT IS ABOUT IQ for me - and people can live in lallalalal land thinking that Leica lenses are so much better than Zeiss or Hasselblad or Mamiya or Schneider or Rodenstock - sorry I dont buy this marketing hyperbole.

    The big issue for Leica is the need to switch people out of what they already use and the investment they have made in lenses and accessories and workflow - NOT the marginal benefits of a red dot with unproven service track record reliability and sustainability.

    If they wish to take on CaNikon - then they better price entry system at CaNikon + type prices - if they wish tot take on the established players at same or higher pricing - good luck to them - not my money - and people can rant and rave about lens quality as much as they like - I have eyes too.

    I have had enough of gettign excited about new toys which really dont add much value to thoughtful picture making and end up being discounted a year later - when teh next new toy gets shoved down my throat. Also, I have had enough of Hasselblad's - line - to use this NEW klens you have to trade up yoru current back- what a load of RUBBISH that is.

    end rant.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well I don't think that leica will be anywhere near 30k and most likely priced right at 15 or 16k with lens. Anything more than that it won't sell to Pro's at least. I realize the Contax for what it is but after time you want to switch that mount either you pay up front with warranty and/or do it after the warranty . Not cheap either, but I agree as a first time buyer a easier way to get in. The Leica does have some serious pluses to it though. Also i never known anyone really taking a bath on Leica gear . I sold both systems the DMR and M8's and i did very well on resale. The S maybe different because the sensor is in the body. Leica has been around forever and weathered many financial storms and has more money behind it than folks really think it does.
    Guy, please see the following article from Imaging Resource:
    http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1222235975.html

    Although unofficial, they are saying it will be $30K. Even if they are off a little, it will be be based on the euro ... and for americans that will only get more expensive over time as the dollar continues its fall. By summer 2009, I do not doubt it will translate into at least US$30K.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    That number was reported wrong . Kaufman is saying 10 to 20 K euros and hopefully closer to 10 k. Let's obviously see what happens but they won't sell one at 30K US period. No one will go that high , at least no one here for sure. There still is a lot of stuff going back and forth on this and it certainly is a moving target but yes 30k would be absurd pricing. They will follow what Hassy does pretty much . That is who they see as the comparison . I'm talking Body and 70mm Kit. Lenses will most likely be closer to Rollie costs.
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Guy, please see the following article from Imaging Resource:
    http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1222235975.html

    Although unofficial, they are saying it will be $30K. Even if they are off a little, it will be be based on the euro ... and for americans that will only get more expensive over time as the dollar continues its fall. By summer 2009, I do not doubt it will translate into at least US$30K.
    Actually, over the next year or so you probably won't see a big slide in the dollar. We (I'm in the investment business) are looking for it to strengthen.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Well if the price is right compared to everything else, maybe it will be like the DMR when it first came out, and better than everything else. Is it possible the LeicaLook lenses give better quality images for S2...

    I also think theres a lot to be said (already said), about a cheap camera, Contax, Mamiya, and Phase back. Like a lot will be happy with 22mp, and will do everything one wants... or refurbished P45 affordable.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    That is very true . This S2 will not beat up my 22mpx Phase back or a Aptus 22mpx back. So to make the switch you have to need those pluses outlined and basically it is the speed issue. But that does not mean the Phase one body today the new one cannot be improved either to be faster and all that. This new body I have from what i was told is just really a temp. camera until a new one from ground up is built next year. Seriously MF shooters that are sitting on there gear will be very hard pressed to switch. i need a really damn good reason myself and not something i just want but can't do without. Compelling is the key word for me or i will just happily shoot what i have and be damn happy about it which I am and many will do the same if all the stars do not align correctly.
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    This S2 will not beat up my 22mpx Phase back or a Aptus 22mpx back.
    It's all premature at this point, but I find this statement very odd. I'd expect a 22MP digital back to be trounced by an S2.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    That number was reported wrong . Kaufman is saying 10 to 20 K euros and hopefully closer to 10 k. Let's obviously see what happens but they won't sell one at 30K US period. No one will go that high , at least no one here for sure. There still is a lot of stuff going back and forth on this and it certainly is a moving target but yes 30k would be absurd pricing. They will follow what Hassy does pretty much . That is who they see as the comparison . I'm talking Body and 70mm Kit. Lenses will most likely be closer to Rollie costs.
    OK, for arguments sake, let's say it is right in the middle of your range, at 15k euros. At TODAY's exchange rate, this translates into roughly US$22K. Now, add the average cost of a Rollei AFD lens, at US$5K each, and a three lens system will run you at least $37K. This does not even account for taxes, tariffs, local dealer overheads, and even further disparity between the euro and the dollar. So, I am betting it will come in closer to $40K - $45K for a three lens system.

    At this price entry level, there are a host of other options one should be considering. A P30+ or even P45+ with a complete Contax 645AF kit could cost roughly half of the Leica S2 price. The new Sinar backs and lower Hasselblad pricing also make the investment in Leica that much harder to swallow. Regardless of the price issues, most pros use other tools like a technical view camera or rangefinder system like the Alpa. So, the Leica S2 will require a lot of extra investment, since an additional back will be needed for these other systems. The Leica S2 camera is not reusable with other cameras like a pure digital back.

    I also predict another fiasco with the S2, similar to the IR one with the M8. Specifically, Leica will be challenged by color cast issues with both their 24mm ultra-wide and their 30mm tilt/shift lens, as their sensor uses microlenses. Because of this, I expect huge delays in making these lenses available.

    I think it is an uphill battle for Leica all the way, but I guess we will have to wait and see how this all plays out. A lot can happen between now and next summer.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Billy I shoot side by side with Jack and his P45 plus and my p25 plus and the difference is there but it is not earth shattering at all. Yes the P45 plus does have more detail but it is not as much as you would think between 22mpx and 39mpx. We just shot last week all of the Phase backs in the studio and you cannot tell any difference until you get in there at start looking hard. Not knowing the science of it all but a 9 micron 22mpx back is nothing to sneeze at , that I know for sure. I get awesome results from it
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    OK, for arguments sake, let's say it is right in the middle of your range, at 15k euros. At TODAY's exchange rate, this translates into roughly US$22K. Now, add the average cost of a Rollei AFD lens, at US$5K each, and a three lens system will run you at least $37K. This does not even account for taxes, tariffs, local dealer overheads, and even further disparity between the euro and the dollar. So, I am betting it will come in closer to $40K - $45K for a three lens system.

    At this price entry level, there are a host of other options one should be considering. A P30+ or even P45+ with a complete Contax 645AF kit could cost roughly half of the Leica S2 price. The new Sinar backs and lower Hasselblad pricing also make the investment in Leica that much harder to swallow. Regardless of the price issues, most pros use other tools like a technical view camera or rangefinder system like the Alpa. So, the Leica S2 will require a lot of extra investment, since an additional back will be needed for these other systems. The Leica S2 camera is not reusable with other cameras like a pure digital back.

    I also predict another fiasco with the S2, similar to the IR one with the M8. Specifically, Leica will be challenged by color cast issues with both their 24mm ultra-wide and their 30mm tilt/shift lens, as their sensor uses microlenses. Because of this, I expect huge delays in making these lenses available.

    I think it is an uphill battle for Leica all the way, but I guess we will have to wait and see how this all plays out. A lot can happen between now and next summer.
    I won't argue your points David and agree with some of them. But yes it will be a uphill battle for leica no matter what the costs. There are some nice pluses to the system i would like but there are some minus ones also. We will have to see how this shapes up for sure but i am keeping a eye on it. In the meantime i will continue to build the system I have and if this proves worthy of a change or addition than something to look at but I am glad they are entering the market for us that is a good thing. I just want the best tool I can get my hands on within the right costs.
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Actually, over the next year or so you probably won't see a big slide in the dollar. We (I'm in the investment business) are looking for it to strengthen.
    That's what the folks at Lehman Brothers said not too long ago ....

    The US government is printing another $700B for the wall street bailout as we write these threads...let's see there is also rising unemployment, outsourcing of jobs, collapsing housing market, dependency on foreign oil, hurricane disaster expenses, not to mention the approaching trillion dollar mark for the war....

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Billy I shoot side by side with Jack and his P45 plus and my p25 plus and the difference is there but it is not earth shattering at all. Yes the P45 plus does have more detail but it is not as much as you would think between 22mpx and 39mpx. We just shot last week all of the Phase backs in the studio and you cannot tell any difference until you get in there at start looking hard. Not knowing the science of it all but a 9 micron 22mpx back is nothing to sneeze at , that I know for sure. I get awesome results from it
    Hey Guy, I would like to end my contribution to this thread on a positive note with you. I agree with you 100% on this observation. The larger 9 micron pixels have a higher signal / noise ratio and produce an extremely rich and clean image, which when printed is VERY difficult to distinguish from the higher MP backs using smaller size pixels. You need an image with very high frequency content and print very large to see a relatively small difference.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    TEB - i agree with you re $US removed hedges 2 months ago..

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Nothing is an absolute otherwise I would play stock market. How deep is one's heart of desire is as deep as the deepest ocean. Like an old lost girlfriend one has not seen in years passing by may rekindle the passion. There are very few systems that in spite of the lack of the latest digital resource and support but still have the demand in the current market is the Contax 645 system. In only recent history, some of the most highly recognizable professional photographers such as Chuck Jones, Mark Tucker and James Russell and others have chosen the Contax 645 system over the other systems and some of these photographers actually bought the Hasselblad H system first because it was the upcoming future system where the Contax 645 system was supposedly dead. In addition, it would be unfair and in some way harsh to compare something that was produced in 1999 to something that is about or just produced in 2008. Today's specification will be beaten by tomorrow specification and when will it ends? Kyocera is a huge company, like Jenoptik, decided not to sell off their brand and thus the Contax 645 system is not dead until it is dead. When life is in struggle and even hanging by a string should not be considered dead either. In addition, most of us are here because we are digital shooters like myself but the world out there is not all digital shooters and this notion is even more applicable to the medium format system. Thus the next argument is wether film is dead or not and it all depending on the shooter to decide and it goes far from just folks in the forums. In a more recent history some of the Leica M users such as Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher decided that instead of the latest aspherical lens they went back to the older Leica lens and brought out new information that the latest and greatest lens lack the characteristics. Finally, in the state of the economy that others like PeterA has bought up in one of his long thread, how many of us can really afford the greatest and latest system as a whole when 35mm system continue to push from the bottom up? I believe that with the amount of photographic resources (optics, cameras and accessories) that are currently available is plentiful for various photographic applications. There are few special niche that with the progress of technology will be greatly beneficial such as the perspective control system of the Sinar ArTec.

    Best Regards,
    -Son

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Actually, over the next year or so you probably won't see a big slide in the dollar. We (I'm in the investment business) are looking for it to strengthen.
    It really looks like it ought to.
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    one very interesting possibility of the s2 will be just how fast later leica lenses will be. this is something that surprised me with the announcement of the lenses that will be available - nothing spectacularly fast there. but imagine a 50mm, 70mm and a 90mm f1,4 with a mf camera that does (and lets be realistic) iso 800!
    I still think the only place for leica to go in selling this thing is with the lenses.

    they've got to sell the body at a good price and make lenses that no one else can.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Of course you don't need the Contax system to get into MF cheaply, if you buy the Mamiya AFDII with the original AF lenses (should be good enough for 22 megapixels?) then you can get into a system much cheaper than with the Contax and it's fully supported!
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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Exactly what Jack and i did . Get a AFD-II and used lenses and actually started with the ZD which BTW a new unit is coming out said to be much faster. The nice part is are able to move up with better parts in the system. The Contax you are stuck with what is made today only and that was more my point than anything is no growing future in that system does not mean it is bad and actually quite good
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Hey Guy, I would like to end my contribution to this thread on a positive note with you. I agree with you 100% on this observation. The larger 9 micron pixels have a higher signal / noise ratio and produce an extremely rich and clean image, which when printed is VERY difficult to distinguish from the higher MP backs using smaller size pixels. You need an image with very high frequency content and print very large to see a relatively small difference.
    David it was all positive and a nice discussion.

    My mistake i should have said modern MF system in the beginning and that i do apologize for making that mistake.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by kipling View Post
    one very interesting possibility of the s2 will be just how fast later leica lenses will be. this is something that surprised me with the announcement of the lenses that will be available - nothing spectacularly fast there. but imagine a 50mm, 70mm and a 90mm f1,4 with a mf camera that does (and lets be realistic) iso 800!
    I still think the only place for leica to go in selling this thing is with the lenses.

    they've got to sell the body at a good price and make lenses that no one else can.
    Couple of interesting things come to mind here....first, several (all?) of the first batch of lenses with the Central Shutter (leaf shutter) are listed as being f2.5 Summarits. While that may not sound all that fast from a 35mm perspective, given the larger sensor size and the accompanying smaller DOF, these f2.5 lenses may due quite well, especially if sharp to the edges. There are not that many faster lenses in MF right now, are there? (The 110 f2.0 comes to mind, but not a whole lot more that come up regularly.)

    The second issue is the fact that the sensor is now contained in the camera body, so the overall body price cannot get too low. With cameras like the Contax, Mamiya AFD (I, II, and now III), the body is mostly a simple box to hold the lenses and the backs, and the requisite controls. With the S2 the body takes on a much more inclusive role with more controls and processing stuffed into it, rather than shared over two pieces...much like all the present DSLRs. That is going to keep its prices more aligned with a back than just a minimally functioning body to hold a lens and back.

    The markets are getting tougher right now, from both the competition and the more demanding buyers that may not be as willing to shell out very large sums of money for gear going forward, so Leica is going to have to really hit a price point that folks can swallow for the body. If they sold it at a loss, it might not be a bad thing for them to get it into the market, and then make up some margin on the glass, as they always have. However, that does not seem to have been their approach with the digital versions of things, and that could be a bit of an undoing with the S2, which is already starting at a much higher price point.

    The other thing we really do not know is just how the lenses may be priced. Based on the discussion comments, there appear to be some economies of scale on the Leica side by having lenses share many of the same parts/components (aside from the mount, I hope). That could allow them to price the lenses more competitively that some of the prices folks are talking about now. Partly, their success there will also be governed by just how good the lenses perform. If they are stellar, they may hold a price premium due to demand, but they will only work on the S2 as far as we know right now.

    To say the least, there is a lot of price flexibility left into this S2 offering. I would like to see this camera succeed, if it really does all it can, and one way for that is to get a good price point that puts many units into the market, both pro and other users, plus rental houses. Volume penetration will be important for success, I think, and that means something a bit more affordable rather than precious in price.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Exactly what Jack and i did . Get a AFD-II and used lenses and actually started with the ZD which BTW a new unit is coming out said to be much faster. The nice part is are able to move up with better parts in the system. The Contax you are stuck with what is made today only and that was more my point than anything is no growing future in that system does not mean it is bad and actually quite good
    Stuck with Zeiss glass??? You've got to be kidding. The Zeiss APO macro for the Contax 645 is still considered one of the finest macro lenses ever made. The Contax Zeiss 35mm IF lens is also an incredible wide angle, which I have not seen anyone improve upon. And, the Zeiss 140/2.8 is every bit as good as the new Mamiya 150/2.8D for a fraction of its cost.

    Then, there is the Contax Zeiss 350 APO lens with 1.4X Mutar. I do not think Mamiya even has the capability to shoot at 500mm, let alone with an autofocus APO lens at this focal length. Heck, Mamiya can't even get their 45-90 zoom lens out the door, which Contax has had for years. Gheesh! Add to this a waist level finder, an in-camera flash meter, and a mirror that is so damped it is like getting an extra 1.5 stops out of it. Basically, the Contax 645 offers high quality optics with more capability and features at less cost.

    Lastly, ToCad says they have plenty of parts and will be able to support the Contax 645 system for years to come. Its lifetime will greatly exceed that of "older" cameras that have since fallen to the wayside like the Leica DMR, D2x, 1dsII, etc. I compare to 35mm systems here, because the price point is that low.

    Newer does not always translate into better. In fact, newer typically translates into more like "how can we get the consumer to fork over more for less".

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Talking about the body David , there will never be an improvement to it. The lenses we all know are great always have been. Owned many Zeiss lenses myself and shot Hassy film camera's for 20 years.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Really....having a stock of Contax replacement parts to keep it breathing for more years will not improve the AF, will not improve any metering, will not be able to introduce any newer, faster features. If you can live with its present configuration and capabilities.....great....stay with it. If one wants the ability to employ newer developing technologies, it is not the system for that. If the backs and glass can do everything, then as a body, it works fine, but there are no paths to improving anything for it. Not bashing it, just taking a forward look which Contax does not have. It may not need it for some folks, and that is fine, but in the larger scheme of things, it, and others are not going to be delivering things that folks may want and need.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 compared to MF bigger brothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Talking about the body David , there will never be an improvement to it. The lenses we all know are great always have been. Owned many Zeiss lenses myself and shot Hassy film camera's for 20 years.
    Guy, the Zeiss lenses are a major point in the cost equation. Not even one of the new Leica S2 lenses offer the speed of the Contax Zeiss F2 80mm lens, which pro portrait photographers like Mark Tucker have put to great use.

    However, even if we compare bodies only, the Contax still offers more for less. If you are doing any serious macro or copy work, the waist level finder option on the Contax is invaluable ergonomically, and a real PITA when using a Mamiya 645. Then, there is the in-camera flash meter, which is like having a Sekonic flash meter at your fingertips. For any product work, the Contax auto-bellows offers shifts, tilts and swings, with a build quality and precision almost identical to a Horseman. In fact, just ask Irakly, who is able to use this equipment quite effectively in his work.

    And, I do not think you even want to bring up the shutter lag issues that Mamiya has, when the Contax has none.

    I will agree that new cameras are offering some newer and different features, but all in all, there are so many useful and productive features of the Contax that newer cameras like the Mamiya still do not even offer yet. So, it is pointless to claim that the newer cameras are actually "moving forward". It may not be the fastest camera for fashion and event photography. But, for portrait, copy, macro and product work, the Contax is more than capable of delivering professional results.

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