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Thread: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    What is great about these forums is you can learn about techniques you never would have thought about. I was looking to try and generate a true pano from a shift on a P65+, but most of the lenses seem to range to 8mm to 12mm, with 15mm being the real max. To me, for a pano, I feel that 18mm to 20mm is needed at minimum with the camera in the landscape orientation. Sure you can rotate the back 90 degrees and get 3 portrait oriented frames, and create a huge 2:3 landscape image with a lot of extra resolution, but not a real pano, not with 12mm of shift left and right. Unless you crop into your image and turn it into a 1:3 ratio.

    As to the need for rise and fall, I fully understand the needs, but for shifting with 5mm, even 10mm is not enough to me is not enough if you are after a pano especially with the big wides 28mm or 23mm even 32. If I am after a pano I most times will just find nodal (it's doable even on the 28) and pan stitch. I realize as Guy pointed out, the big minus here is you have to be level and many times that just is not going to happen.

    Back in 2005 when Zork Made their adapters that allowed a user to place a medium format lens on a 35mm camera, I was an early adopter, here you could get 18mm of full shift and depending on the lens, very little fall off or smearing at the edges. For me 18mm to each side is just beginning to get to a pano. The Zork was great in that you could have the camera in any orientation and still shift only the camera body (with simple mods) thus similar to how the tech camera operates.

    These ultra wides from Rodenstock are amazing in how they hold the details to the edge of the frame. But for shifting, the 60mm Schneider is where I really start to push, as on a 60mp Phase you can go to 30mm and use about 90% to 92% of that stitch. The 60mm at 30mm left and 20mm right on Arca is really amazing and begins to look like a pano. You have to use a L bracket like the ones from Really Right Stuff to rotate the Acra so now your rise and fall become your shift.

    Paul Caldwell
    Absolutely! The 43XL, 47XL, 60XL, and 120XL (and maybe 55HR) would all make great tools for 3:1 aspect ratio stitching with a 65+. Many other lenses can do great wide-aspect images with stitching to e.g. 16:9 or 2:1. But 3:1 is fairly extreme (in the technical sense) and requires a huge-image-circle lenses.

    Of course it should probably also be noted that a 65+ shot stitched to 2:1 and cropped to 3:1 is still going to have VERY high resolution by most standards. Depending on lens and method of stitching you're still looking at around 60mp of sharp detail in the final 3:1 image.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Here is a guide showing the size of the image circle of the relevant lenses:

    So Doug, if you had a Cambo with a 35xl on it and had recently upgraded from p65+ to IQ180, wanted to have about the same fov and about the same abilities for shift that you used to have and liked the distortion-free nature of the 35xl, didn't need swings and tilts, did need corner to corner sharpness, and were only a little price sensitive, what would you get? It should be clear to me by now but I'm still a bit uncertain! The 32 and 40 both look interesting: one thing I loved about the 35xl was that focussed at 3 metres and stopped to f11 I got no appreciable diffraction issues and DOF from foreground to infninity when levelled on a five foot tripod - which is almost always what I am after when using this rig...

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Dear friends,

    Thanks very much for your advices.
    As I love my Canon 17mm TS, I decided to buy the Rodie 23mm HR from Joe although I know there is no movement.
    So I've already have one lens!
    What would be my next 2 lenses?

    Best regards,
    Pramote

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    What is great about these forums is you can learn about techniques you never would have thought about. I was looking to try and generate a true pano from a shift on a P65+, but most of the lenses seem to range to 8mm to 12mm, with 15mm being the real max. To me, for a pano, I feel that 18mm to 20mm is needed at minimum with the camera in the landscape orientation. Sure you can rotate the back 90 degrees and get 3 portrait oriented frames, and create a huge 2:3 landscape image with a lot of extra resolution, but not a real pano, not with 12mm of shift left and right. Unless you crop into your image and turn it into a 1:3 ratio.

    As to the need for rise and fall, I fully understand the needs, but for shifting with 5mm, even 10mm is not enough to me is not enough if you are after a pano especially with the big wides 28mm or 23mm even 32. If I am after a pano I most times will just find nodal (it's doable even on the 28) and pan stitch. I realize as Guy pointed out, the big minus here is you have to be level and many times that just is not going to happen.

    Back in 2005 when Zork Made their adapters that allowed a user to place a medium format lens on a 35mm camera, I was an early adopter, here you could get 18mm of full shift and depending on the lens, very little fall off or smearing at the edges. For me 18mm to each side is just beginning to get to a pano. The Zork was great in that you could have the camera in any orientation and still shift only the camera body (with simple mods) thus similar to how the tech camera operates.

    These ultra wides from Rodenstock are amazing in how they hold the details to the edge of the frame. But for shifting, the 60mm Schneider is where I really start to push, as on a 60mp Phase you can go to 30mm and use about 90% to 92% of that stitch. The 60mm at 30mm left and 20mm right on Arca is really amazing and begins to look like a pano. You have to use a L bracket like the ones from Really Right Stuff to rotate the Acra so now your rise and fall become your shift.

    Paul Caldwell
    Which brings up a good point the WRS or AE Cambo will only go 20mm on a left to right stitch. To get more I would have to turn my body on a vertical side there
    My rise and fall controls go 25mm. So I could do that if needed and with my SK 60 with its huge image circle I could take advantage of that. I have to look at my Cambo but rise may even get to 30mm. I have to check that to be sure, it's in the safe. LOL
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Which brings up a good point the WRS or AE Cambo will only go 20mm on a left to right stitch. To get more I would have to turn my body on a vertical side there
    My rise and fall controls go 25mm. So I could do that if needed and with my SK 60 with its huge image circle I could take advantage of that. I have to look at my Cambo but rise may even get to 30mm. I have to check that to be sure, it's in the safe. LOL
    25/15 rise/fall for WRS

    WDS, Alpa XY, and Arca RL3D offer larger ranges of movement
    The Arca and Cambo allow wide-angle tilt
    The Alpa has the largest range of total movements
    All three are larger than the RS
    The Arca is the only one with all movements natively on rear

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Alpa Max provides 25mm rise, 18mm fall & 18mm left/right shifts. Use the stitching adapter which attaches to the lens mount and the whole camera & back will rise/fall & shift about the lens and you use the shift indicator to see from the rear where everything is. The Max is a smaller behemoth than the XY gargantuan (Damn, I miss my Max sometimes ... But not the size)

    Movements on the XY are insanely huge!
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    So Doug, if you had a Cambo with a 35xl on it and had recently upgraded from p65+ to IQ180, wanted to have about the same fov and about the same abilities for shift that you used to have and liked the distortion-free nature of the 35xl, didn't need swings and tilts, did need corner to corner sharpness, and were only a little price sensitive, what would you get? It should be clear to me by now but I'm still a bit uncertain! The 32 and 40 both look interesting: one thing I loved about the 35xl was that focussed at 3 metres and stopped to f11 I got no appreciable diffraction issues and DOF from foreground to infninity when levelled on a five foot tripod - which is almost always what I am after when using this rig...
    Sorry Tim, my advice can't get you any further than you are already: 32HR or 40HR.

    My slight preference (price aside) would be the 32HR with Center Filter. But either options seem very well justified (based on your outlined requirements) to me.

    I'd still go for the Tilt-swing panel though. You never know when your shooting habits will change and you'll want to do more dramatic (in the technical sense) compositions with foreground objects and lower tripod heights. You can always leave the tilt at zero. Plus upon resale in the future it will have a much broader appeal.

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Thanks Doug,

    That's great advice. I am finding it hard to get an idea on prices for these new in both TS and non TS mounts. Given the import/export tax situations is there any point my ordering them from you, which is what I'd really like to do? I am in the uk ... Also I hear they are prone to flare...what do you suggest using to prevent this?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Sorry Tim, my advice can't get you any further than you are already: 32HR or 40HR.

    My slight preference (price aside) would be the 32HR with Center Filter. But either options seem very well justified (based on your outlined requirements) to me.

    I'd still go for the Tilt-swing panel though. You never know when your shooting habits will change and you'll want to do more dramatic (in the technical sense) compositions with foreground objects and lower tripod heights. You can always leave the tilt at zero. Plus upon resale in the future it will have a much broader appeal. Also I he's they are prone to flare - what hoods would you suggest?


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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    That's great advice. I am finding it hard to get an idea on prices for these new in both TS and non TS mounts. Given the import/export tax situations is there any point my ordering them from you, which is what I'd really like to do? I am in the uk ... Also I hear they are prone to flare...what do you suggest using to prevent this?
    Bit short on time. The flare issue is real and warrants consideration (extra consideration if adding the additional glass of a CF). But the suggestions already in the archives here are as good as any I'd give. They involve various lens shades or gobos on flexible arms to shield the lens.

    We have a lot of international customers, especially for some of this more exotic stuff where it's rarely sitting on a shelf anyway and is generally shipping from the European mnfr anyway. Usually the client is the one determining applicable local laws regarding import duties. From our point of view we charge in USD (conversion fees come on your side of finding how to best pay us in USD, sometimes wire transfer, sometimes AMEX, sometimes a bank account held in USD) and don't charge any tax and shipping cost is usually trivial (as a % of total cost). In some countries the import/duties are much higher than local sales tax; in others it's a non issue. I'd be happy to have one of our guys send you a quote or you can call in using Skype (or cell if you have decent international rates).

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Thanks Doug, I will call! Or even FaceTime if you use an iphone?

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Thanks Doug, I will call! Or even FaceTime if you use an iphone?
    We all have iPhones on our WiFi here, but we usually end up using GoToMeeting for video chatting as it's been far more stable for us and also allows sharing screens and adding multiple people.

    We experimented with iChat and Skype for this purpose but nothing touches GoToMeeting. We use it now for our weekly inter-office meetings, customer support, and training.

    Of course how ever you want to contact us we are happy to hear from you.

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I came from 4x5, so I already knew which focals I "had to have" since I had been through every possible focal previously with the 4x5. There I had settled on a foursome. In order of use they were the 90 (maybe 50%), 150 (about 30%), then about tied between the 65 and 270 (around 10% each). The comparable focals for LF >> MF tech >> 35mm full-frame are *approximately*

    90 = 40 = 26
    150 = 70 = 45
    65 = 28 = 19
    270 = 120 = 80

    I also liked the 55 in LF, but it was getting pretty wide, and the 47 in LF was extremely wide; know that 47 in LF = about the 23 in MF tech, which in turn = about 15mm in 35 terms. Hence where I am presently sitting with my tech kit is my first 2 mandatory focals were the 40 and the 70, and I am extremely happy with both of them. The next addition was the 120, but only because I wanted that focal for the tech cam so I would not have to drag my DF body in the field with me. I also now have the 28 HR on order to round out my ideal single-camera foursome.

    So for you already knowing you use your 28 and 55 a lot, I think you just need to decide 1) do you want to use your DSLR body or another camera for longer shots, and 2) if you'd prefer the tech replacement for your 55 a little wider (40HR or 43SK or the 50HR) or a little tighter (60SK), then decide how much longer than that one or wider than the 28 you want to go for your 3rd option.

    Note that for me I chose the Rodenstock HR series for my 28, 40 and 70, but have shot with the similar 43 and 72 Schneiders -- basically all of the CURRENT series of tech lenses are stellar, the older generations you need to be careful. My 120 is the SK and it is excellent too.

    120 and long tech lens note: 120 (or 135, 150, 180, 210) short barrel lenses have a rear extension "box" to allow for infinity focus on tech cams -- this makes the package less compact combined and slower to mount and unmount. Some of the manufacturers offer long barrel in the long lenses that add that length like a permanently attached extension tube -- this makes them less portable and efficient to pack and carry in your bag. In short, just recognize that using lenses longer than 90 on tech cams gets a little more finicky and slower to operate.
    Fantastic advice, Jack! If I may, about your 120 and longer note: this is true only depending on which camera you use these lenses, and true for Cambo, Silvestri & Arca for sure. On the other hand, for me and my Techno is not so: using a Linhof camera system, all lenses are mounted on flat Linhof boards, so actually the longer focals are indeed the smallest and lighter lenses of all.

    To answer the OP question, my kit is Rodie 35 Digitar, Schneider 47 XL, 90 and 180; all to be used on a Linhof Techno and with a Leaf Aptus II 12R on Hasselblad V mount.
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    I forgot to post this yesterday. Not a great shot but it is the Rodie 23.

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    I use the Cambo mostly for 2x2 stitches, so I am partial to large image circles (IC). I currently have a 2 lens kit, a Rodie 55mm and an SK 90mm. I believe the Rodie 55mm has the largest advertised IC of any of the lens available of the Cambo RS. I am pretty pleased with it. I find the 55mm on par with the SK 47mm and suffers far less from LCC issues and has a bigger useable (on the IQ180) IC. Some popo the 55mm for its non-leading MTF chart, but I find it's practical application more that adequate.

    There is a couple of recents for the 55mm...

    This one is 20mm down/10mm up/15mm left and right.


    This one is 15mm down, up, left and right.


    Some 100% center detail...



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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    So on the IQ 180 it seems that replacement candidates for my SK 35XL are the Rodie 32 and 40 and the SK 43.

    The rodies are, I am told (and have noted above) prone to flare and suffer some significant distortion - I know they offer great movements and sharpness, but these do seem to be the downsides. So I am thinking about the SK 43.

    Realistically, does anyone know what shifts it allows on an IQ180 and what sort of distortions it has, and whether it needs to be shot with a hood or gobo rig? I never bother with my 35XL, and it never minds!

    Really appreciating the advice...

    Tim

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    By the way - I had a 28mm for a very short while and found I couldn't get any shits past 2mm and that was using the P45+.
    Don
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by micek View Post
    A definite downside to Rodenstock lenses: constipation.
    Okay - that's what I get for writing something while drinking
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    So on the IQ 180 it seems that replacement candidates for my SK 35XL are the Rodie 32 and 40 and the SK 43.

    The rodies are, I am told (and have noted above) prone to flare and suffer some significant distortion - I know they offer great movements and sharpness, but these do seem to be the downsides. So I am thinking about the SK 43.

    Realistically, does anyone know what shifts it allows on an IQ180 and what sort of distortions it has, and whether it needs to be shot with a hood or gobo rig? I never bother with my 35XL, and it never minds!

    Really appreciating the advice...

    Tim
    Tim,

    I get irritated when simple generalizations get blown out of scale, so bear with me... to be clear, I would not refer the Rodenstock HR distortion as anything approaching extreme! It is there, but it is minor compared to any traditional MF DSLR lens from Hassy, Phase or Schneider. And yes the SK distortion is marginally less than Rodie, but it is still there in both lens designs -- ergo, if you need distortion free geometric rendering, you're going to be running the Alpa lens corrector or similar on all your images regardless of which brand of lens you're using -- in fact all lenses wider than normals distort to some degree, and in fact most every lens design period distorts to some degree! Conversely, if your subject is non-critical geometry, you'll not need to run a lens corrector with either the SK or HR. What I am saying is I cannot think of a situation where I'd need to run it on Rodie and not have to run it on the SK.

    Final comment, I shot a 2-frame architectural stitch of a massive house for a customer with my 40HR, of course camera well-levelled. I assembled the pair and processed, never bothering with Alpa lens corrections and making only a few very minor corrections using PS SKEW tool. I printed it out big for the client, it looked phenomenal and I could detect no offensive distortions anywhere in the image, and neither did the client...
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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    So on the IQ 180 it seems that replacement candidates for my SK 35XL are the Rodie 32 and 40 and the SK 43.

    The rodies are, I am told (and have noted above) prone to flare and suffer some significant distortion - I know they offer great movements and sharpness, but these do seem to be the downsides. So I am thinking about the SK 43.

    Realistically, does anyone know what shifts it allows on an IQ180 and what sort of distortions it has, and whether it needs to be shot with a hood or gobo rig? I never bother with my 35XL, and it never minds!

    Really appreciating the advice...

    Tim
    Ditto on Jack's comments. Having owned both the HR32 and SK35, they are comparable without shifts. The SK35 is MUCH software with extreme shifts than the HR32. That said, I rarely have problems with flare with either one of these lens. Distortion is a little more with the HR32 but neither should be considered extreme. While I haven't tested it, IMO they don't seem to have as much distortion as 645 mfg's glass for that matter. If you are shooting architecture or interiors you probably will have to correct with any wide angle glass.

    The HR23 has serious problems with flare when using the center filter primarily due to the fact that the center filter is MUCH closer to the front of the lens than the SK35 CF. Basically it reflects the color of the sensor reflecting back off the CF which is difficult but not impossible to correct in post. The CF on the SK35 is almost an inch farther away from the front of the lens but almost any filter on the SK35 CF darkens the corners. Remove the center filter and the problems go away. I don't know if the CF could be coated to reduce the flare but I would be tempted to try it if I could find a source. Regardless, I would still use the HR23 because it gives me a dramatic FOV in certain circumstances.

    Just my experience, but the HR23 is basically the same FOV as the HR32 shifted about 15mm in each direction. Shifting the HR32 that much in most cases results in softer edges than the HR23 so it is a nice fit even with the color cast problems in the center of the image.

    A couple of my recent HR23 images. A little unsharp mask on the edges is able to recover any lens softness. The second image is slightly softer on extreme edges of the handrails but that was a DOF tradeoff more than lens softness. Camera was less than 18" away from the handrails on either side and I wanted the trees on the islands sharp enough to show detail in the evergreens. That said, photographers might notice but normal humans would not.




  20. #70
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    That's good enough for me Jack: I had read somewhere that the 40HR had moustache distortion that was visible in architectural shots but I am happier to take your word forit than anyone's.

    How do you find the flare? I do accept that this is equally likely to have been exaggerated.

    Am also curious as to any experience anyone has had with the sk43.

    Best
    Tim


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Tim,

    I get irritated when simple generalizations get blown out of scale, so bear with me... to be clear, I would not refer the Rodenstock HR distortion as anything approaching extreme! It is there, but it is minor compared to any traditional MF DSLR lens from Hassy, Phase or Schneider. And yes the SK distortion is marginally less than Rodie, but it is still there in both lens designs -- ergo, if you need distortion free geometric rendering, you're going to be running the Alpa lens corrector or similar on all your images regardless of which brand of lens you're using -- in fact all lenses wider than normals distort to some degree, and in fact most every lens design period distorts to some degree! Conversely, if your subject is non-critical geometry, you'll not need to run a lens corrector with either the SK or HR. What I am saying is I cannot think of a situation where I'd need to run it on Rodie and not have to run it on the SK.

    Final comment, I shot a 2-frame architectural stitch of a massive house for a customer with my 40HR, of course camera well-levelled. I assembled the pair and processed, never bothering with Alpa lens corrections and making only a few very minor corrections using PS SKEW tool. I printed it out big for the client, it looked phenomenal and I could detect no offensive distortions anywhere in the image, and neither did the client...

  21. #71
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Thank you, that is also incredibly useful (and I remember that shot of the mill from when you first posted it, simply gorgeous!)

    The 23HR would just be too wide for me: much as I'd love to have one, I am running too much gear at the moment and really need to focus on defining and fulfilling core needs. I'd be interested to know if you use a CF on the 32HR?

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Ditto on Jack's comments. Having owned both the HR32 and SK35, they are comparable without shifts. The SK35 is MUCH software with extreme shifts than the HR32. That said, I rarely have problems with flare with either one of these lens. Distortion is a little more with the HR32 but neither should be considered extreme. While I haven't tested it, IMO they don't seem to have as much distortion as 645 mfg's glass for that matter. If you are shooting architecture or interiors you probably will have to correct with any wide angle glass.

    The HR23 has serious problems with flare when using the center filter primarily due to the fact that the center filter is MUCH closer to the front of the lens than the SK35 CF. Basically it reflects the color of the sensor reflecting back off the CF which is difficult but not impossible to correct in post. The CF on the SK35 is almost an inch farther away from the front of the lens but almost any filter on the SK35 CF darkens the corners. Remove the center filter and the problems go away. I don't know if the CF could be coated to reduce the flare but I would be tempted to try it if I could find a source. Regardless, I would still use the HR23 because it gives me a dramatic FOV in certain circumstances.

    Just my experience, but the HR23 is basically the same FOV as the HR32 shifted about 15mm in each direction. Shifting the HR32 that much in most cases results in softer edges than the HR23 so it is a nice fit even with the color cast problems in the center of the image.

    A couple of my recent HR23 images. A little unsharp mask on the edges is able to recover any lens softness. The second image is slightly softer on extreme edges of the handrails but that was a DOF tradeoff more than lens softness. Camera was less than 18" away from the handrails on either side and I wanted the trees on the islands sharp enough to show detail in the evergreens. That said, photographers might notice but normal humans would not.

  22. #72
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post

    How do you find the flare? I do accept that this is equally likely to have been exaggerated.

    Am also curious as to any experience anyone has had with the sk43.

    Best
    Tim
    I should have mentioned that as well. Bottom line is ALL the tech lenses are more flare-prone than their DSLR counterparts simply because of the relatively larger IC's -- the same IC that allows us generous shifts, also allows bright light outside our current frame to enter the interior lightbox of the camera and bounce around. SO bottom line is if you're shooting toward a bright light source, you'll need to shade or flag.

    Getting technical, the shorter HR lenses being retrofocal and thus being physically further away from the sensor plane than a similar focal SK, creates less acute angles for the light to bounce around, increasing the likelihood of flare.

    However in practice as recent as Death Valley, there was one situation where I needed to mount my hood with my 40HR, and so did Terry shooting an identical camera and back from the same position with her SK43 mounted. Additionally just FWIW, in one particular situation, we both swapped to our 70's -- me the 70HR, she the 72SK -- and neither of us had a flare issue with the longer lenses since the offending lightsource -- the Sun -- was now out at the edges of the 70/73's IC.

    This was the 70 version of that particular scene, the Sun is just outside the IC upper left frame:



    For reference, I just processed this image out, the same location with the 40HR, no shade. This is straight off the sensor as shot, no LCC. You can clearly see the Sun is in the frame upper left, and the resulting "massive" flare spot ( ). It also shows you exactly where the Sun was in the image with the 70 above:

    Jack
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Thanks Jack, that's the last piece of the puzzle I need other than to ask if you use a CF with this lens?

    What a truly amazing image. Really really fantastic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post


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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Here is a SK 60mm same time but I was about 50 yards to the right of Jack and Terry and actually maybe slightly more into the sun on the left. I flagged the sun

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Thanks Jack, that's the last piece of the puzzle I need other than to ask if you use a CF with this lens?

    What a truly amazing image. Really really fantastic.
    Tim, no CF on either lens -- what you are seeing in the 40 image is the actual total falloff for it. The 70 does not have a CF either but I did run the LCC which removes it, then added vignette back in to desired effect.

    And thank you
    Jack
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Ditto on Jack's comments. Having owned both the HR32 and SK35, they are comparable without shifts. The SK35 is MUCH software with extreme shifts than the HR32. That said, I rarely have problems with flare with either one of these lens. Distortion is a little more with the HR32 but neither should be considered extreme. While I haven't tested it, IMO they don't seem to have as much distortion as 645 mfg's glass for that matter. If you are shooting architecture or interiors you probably will have to correct with any wide angle glass.

    The HR23 has serious problems with flare when using the center filter primarily due to the fact that the center filter is MUCH closer to the front of the lens than the SK35 CF. Basically it reflects the color of the sensor reflecting back off the CF which is difficult but not impossible to correct in post. The CF on the SK35 is almost an inch farther away from the front of the lens but almost any filter on the SK35 CF darkens the corners. Remove the center filter and the problems go away. I don't know if the CF could be coated to reduce the flare but I would be tempted to try it if I could find a source. Regardless, I would still use the HR23 because it gives me a dramatic FOV in certain circumstances.

    Just my experience, but the HR23 is basically the same FOV as the HR32 shifted about 15mm in each direction. Shifting the HR32 that much in most cases results in softer edges than the HR23 so it is a nice fit even with the color cast problems in the center of the image.

    A couple of my recent HR23 images. A little unsharp mask on the edges is able to recover any lens softness. The second image is slightly softer on extreme edges of the handrails but that was a DOF tradeoff more than lens softness. Camera was less than 18" away from the handrails on either side and I wanted the trees on the islands sharp enough to show detail in the evergreens. That said, photographers might notice but normal humans would not.



    Ed
    The pictures are just breathtaking!
    I am glad to hear that you use HR 23. Mine will arrive soon.
    Do you still use center filter with HR 23 despite the color cast?
    Thanks,
    Pramote

  27. #77
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Thank you, that is also incredibly useful (and I remember that shot of the mill from when you first posted it, simply gorgeous!)

    The 23HR would just be too wide for me: much as I'd love to have one, I am running too much gear at the moment and really need to focus on defining and fulfilling core needs. I'd be interested to know if you use a CF on the 32HR?
    I ALWAYS shoot the HR32 with a center filter now. I was converted by an image from heaven! There was enough noise in the LCC processed edges that I ordered the way too expensive CF the next week. It's never been off since.


  28. #78
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Here is a SK 60mm same time but I was about 50 yards to the right of Jack and Terry and actually maybe slightly more into the sun on the left. I flagged the sun

    AWESOME!!!!

  29. #79
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    Ed
    The pictures are just breathtaking!
    I am glad to hear that you use HR 23. Mine will arrive soon.
    Do you still use center filter with HR 23 despite the color cast?
    Thanks,
    Pramote
    Thanks Pramote!

    Yes I still use the CF on the HR23. Better to mess with the color cast than have 2.5 stops more noise on the edges. I wish I could come up with a better way to correct the cast automatically but no luck as of yet. It sucks trying to clean up color problems especially when your as colored blind as I am. I have to crank saturation up about 50 to do almost any color correction. Fortunately I have some guys in the office who love to "share" what is wrong with my pictures.

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Thanks Ed!
    Your insight for HR 23 and 32 is extremely helpful.
    Worse comes to worse, I can just only do B&W with the HR 23.
    Best regards,
    Pramote
    Last edited by Landscapelover; 22nd February 2012 at 00:48.

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    I too have the Canon 17ts lens as my favourite for DSLR landscapes, which has carried through to the HR 23 in MFD. And, with a reasonably level set-up, multiple files from portrait format images made with the HR 23 can be stitched with Helicon or other stitching software. Here shown a single image and then 4 stitched.

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Rob,

    Thanks for sharing.
    They are amazingly sharp! Do you use CF with these pictures?
    What f stop do you usually use and how many feet do you focus at to have DOF from few feet to infinity?

    Pramote

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Pramote - I neglected to say that these are both 3 focus-plane Helicon stacks. So the stitched image is 3 x 4 = 12 images total, and the single image is 3 images stacked. All taken at f8. I've resisted a CF to date - flare is problem enough with the 23 without the further reflectance outlined above by Graeme. LCC does a very good job here.

    I have found that in using the HR 23 the corners of the image go very mushy when the subject is close, say less than a couple of feet. The centre is fine, just the corners. This is a problem with a traditional view camera technique of a close and large foreground leading into a background. The stitched image gives a wider view but could be also used to effectively increase the image circle - the outside portions of the larger image could be cropped away to retain an ultra-sharp, distortion-reduced central image of similar framing to a single 23 frame. Most often the camera will be pointing to some degree downwards in photographing a dominant and close foreground - I'm in the process of experimenting to see how Helicon handles downward-pointing ultra-wide images for stitching!

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Thanks very much Rob for this very useful information. I can't wait to get the HR 23 (with CF) next week although a little nervous about LCC and flare. I hope I can manage these problems.
    Regards,
    Pramote

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    What is great about these forums is you can learn about techniques you never would have thought about. I was looking to try and generate a true pano from a shift on a P65+, but most of the lenses seem to range to 8mm to 12mm, with 15mm being the real max. To me, for a pano, I feel that 18mm to 20mm is needed at minimum with the camera in the landscape orientation. Sure you can rotate the back 90 degrees and get 3 portrait oriented frames, and create a huge 2:3 landscape image with a lot of extra resolution, but not a real pano, not with 12mm of shift left and right. Unless you crop into your image and turn it into a 1:3 ratio.

    As to the need for rise and fall, I fully understand the needs, but for shifting with 5mm, even 10mm is not enough to me is not enough if you are after a pano especially with the big wides 28mm or 23mm even 32. If I am after a pano I most times will just find nodal (it's doable even on the 28) and pan stitch. I realize as Guy pointed out, the big minus here is you have to be level and many times that just is not going to happen.

    Back in 2005 when Zork Made their adapters that allowed a user to place a medium format lens on a 35mm camera, I was an early adopter, here you could get 18mm of full shift and depending on the lens, very little fall off or smearing at the edges. For me 18mm to each side is just beginning to get to a pano. The Zork was great in that you could have the camera in any orientation and still shift only the camera body (with simple mods) thus similar to how the tech camera operates.

    These ultra wides from Rodenstock are amazing in how they hold the details to the edge of the frame. But for shifting, the 60mm Schneider is where I really start to push, as on a 60mp Phase you can go to 30mm and use about 90% to 92% of that stitch. The 60mm at 30mm left and 20mm right on Arca is really amazing and begins to look like a pano. You have to use a L bracket like the ones from Really Right Stuff to rotate the Acra so now your rise and fall become your shift.

    Paul Caldwell
    Actually Arca-Swiss makes some very nice universal L Brackets with QRs that would allow the 'flipping' of the camera to vertical position if you do not wish to reverse the back.
    Uniquely ours is adjustable for different size cameras.
    Rod
    US Representative, Arca-Swiss International
    R-Line Technical Cameras, Large Format View Cameras, Tripod Heads D4, D4m, P1, P0, Z1, Z2, C1 Cube.
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    I've been traveling awhile and just caught up with this thread and I just want to say a BIG thank you to all the contributors (especially Tim for asking the right questions!) -- this is what this site is all about!
    I'm using a 35xl and 47xl on my Rm3d and am (slowly) winding myself up to getting something in the 90-120 range, so this is all very useful information.

    Again, many thanks to everyone

    John.

    BTW just in case it's relevant to anyone's decisions regarding architecture work, on my english cathedral site all the work from 2010 onwards is with my Rm3d and either a 35xl or 34 xl and a P45+ back (I've recently got an IQ160 though )

  37. #87
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    BTW I have a Rodie 28 and Sk 28 to test against coming up this weekend do look for a user review of the two. The folks at CI are lending me the lenses to test out for the forum. Thanks to Dave at CI for letting me do this test.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  38. #88
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Hi Guy,
    the beach picture is fantastic! how bad is the colour cast of the SK 60 xl??
    is there any chance to see the picture without LCC applied. I would love to compare it to Jack's 40 HR image.

    thanks a lot,
    Johannes

  39. #89
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by johann View Post
    Hi Guy,
    the beach picture is fantastic! how bad is the colour cast of the SK 60 xl??
    is there any chance to see the picture without LCC applied. I would love to compare it to Jack's 40 HR image.

    thanks a lot,
    Johannes
    not sure what kind of craze is on my mind that I call dead valley a beach.



    probably I need a break!

    forgive me!

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Excuse my laziness, but if you do two vertical stitches with a Rodenstock 32HR,
    about what focal length view in a single capture would that be?

    Bill

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Bill,
    Not sure how much of a shift / overlap you are referring to, but if you constrain the shift to keep the same format ratio (i.e. 4/3), then The 32 produces an image equivalent to a 24mm lens.

    For example on a 54x40 sensor (actually 53.7x40.4), the diagonal is 67.2mm. To create an image with 4/3 ratio in the other direction you need a 71.6x53.7 format (a 15.6mm shift). That gives an 89.5mm diagonal. 32mm x 67.2 / 89.5 = 24mm

    Dave

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Perfect. Just what I needed to hear. So, in shooting static subjects, or creatively shooting moving ones, the 32HR can be a versatile lens choice. Best choice is always single shot capture, but the 23mm has a lot if issues beyond its *ahem* high purchase price, especially when you factor in the cost of a graduated filter.

  43. #93
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by lenslover View Post
    Perfect. Just what I needed to hear. So, in shooting static subjects, or creatively shooting moving ones, the 32HR can be a versatile lens choice. Best choice is always single shot capture, but the 23mm has a lot if issues beyond its *ahem* high purchase price, especially when you factor in the cost of a graduated filter.
    If you routinely need the FOV of the 23, I'm not sure you'll be happy shooting the 32HR shifted that far. Quality gets pretty ugly past 10-12mm shifts especially if you are shooting with a larger aperture than f/16.

    The 23 is a huge chunk of change and getting a quality image can be a challenge. That said, it is capable of producing some fantastic images when you get things right.

  44. #94
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    Thanks Ed!
    Your insight for HR 23 and 32 is extremely helpful.
    Worse comes to worse, I can just only do B&W with the HR 23.
    Best regards,
    Pramote
    Since I have had several people contact me about the 23 issues, I thought I would post a bit of followup. This lens and the IQ180 together seem to be pushing the limits of MF physics but with care it pulls it off effectively.

    1. Color cast: IMO, the color cast or hot spot with this lens is caused by light hitting the sensor and reflecting off the center filter back into the image. In most cases, it is mostly color cast but in some cases a slight hot spot. A real pain to remove the color cast after the fact but I have done it on a few images. Depending on the location of the light source you can usually shade the lens to eliminate it. Worst case in challenging light, I take an extra exposure with up to 1/3 of the frame shaded and use the center of that exposure blended with the original.

    2. Resolution on this lens is fantastic but shooting that wide with a full 645 frame you will find you need to stop down to at least f/8 or f/11 to keep things clear to the edge otherwise you will see a little ghosting in the extreme edges of the frame. The HR32 shifted to these extreme FOV exhibits the same behavior.

    3. When shooting things very close to this lens you have to take into account the DOF curvature. You'll need to compensate by stopping down or focusing closer. The closer things are the more you need to compensate for it. Fortunately, this lens does really well stopped down. I routinely shoot f/16 or f/22 and print at full resolution.

    4. This lens is exceptionally sharp in the center and viewing at 100% you will notice a slight falloff in sharpness at probably the last 15%-20% of the image circle. I doubt anyone could see it in print but I know it's there so I usually correct in photoshop with a bit of unsharp mask and blend it in where I need it.

    Your mileage may vary but it helps to have as much insight as possible when approaching this lens. I find myself using this lens more and more often the longer I own it. It opens up possibilities that I just didn't have without it.

    Ed

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Ed
    Thanks for the interesting write up On the 23HR.
    It might also be useful to know that this lens can be shifted up to 4mm in landscape orientation on a full frame chip which is really a lot in real life given the FoV. I did not expect this when I purchased this lens, same as the hot spot which came as a bit of a shock .

    Regarding the centered hotpot that occurs in some images I came to the same conclusion by taking a second exposure while shading the upper part of the frame and combining the 2 frames later in post. That seems to be the easiest solution.
    To avoid this problem I tried several shading solutions :
    - Alpa's dedicated lens shade: it's was way too hard the find the exact position to control the hot spot
    - Lee,s wide angle hood, which could not be retracted far enough

    I ended up using my hand since none of the above was working for me
    What does in fact helped a bit is to use a basic filter screwed onto this lens. Under certain lighting conditions the few millimeters reduce flare. But the hot spot can be a pain to deal with.
    I am wondering if you have found any useful shading solution for the 23HR and what your take is on the CF? Could this CF help to avoid the centered hot spot by acting as a lens shade ?
    I have not used one and felt I can get away with it unlike the 32HR which greatly benefits from a CF when lots of shift is applied, but if the CF on the 23 could get rid of the hot spot I would be buying one since this lens is a real gem for certain type of shots
    thanks

    Grischa

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Since I have had several people contact me about the 23 issues, I thought I would post a bit of followup. This lens and the IQ180 together seem to be pushing the limits of MF physics but with care it pulls it off effectively.

    1. Color cast: IMO, the color cast or hot spot with this lens is caused by light hitting the sensor and reflecting off the center filter back into the image. In most cases, it is mostly color cast but in some cases a slight hot spot. A real pain to remove the color cast after the fact but I have done it on a few images. Depending on the location of the light source you can usually shade the lens to eliminate it. Worst case in challenging light, I take an extra exposure with up to 1/3 of the frame shaded and use the center of that exposure blended with the original.

    2. Resolution on this lens is fantastic but shooting that wide with a full 645 frame you will find you need to stop down to at least f/8 or f/11 to keep things clear to the edge otherwise you will see a little ghosting in the extreme edges of the frame. The HR32 shifted to these extreme FOV exhibits the same behavior.

    3. When shooting things very close to this lens you have to take into account the DOF curvature. You'll need to compensate by stopping down or focusing closer. The closer things are the more you need to compensate for it. Fortunately, this lens does really well stopped down. I routinely shoot f/16 or f/22 and print at full resolution.

    4. This lens is exceptionally sharp in the center and viewing at 100% you will notice a slight falloff in sharpness at probably the last 15%-20% of the image circle. I doubt anyone could see it in print but I know it's there so I usually correct in photoshop with a bit of unsharp mask and blend it in where I need it.

    Your mileage may vary but it helps to have as much insight as possible when approaching this lens. I find myself using this lens more and more often the longer I own it. It opens up possibilities that I just didn't have without it.

    Ed

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    Re: 3 lenses for Technical camera and Phase One IQ 180

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Since I have had several people contact me about the 23 issues, I thought I would post a bit of followup. This lens and the IQ180 together seem to be pushing the limits of MF physics but with care it pulls it off effectively.

    1. Color cast: IMO, the color cast or hot spot with this lens is caused by light hitting the sensor and reflecting off the center filter back into the image. In most cases, it is mostly color cast but in some cases a slight hot spot. A real pain to remove the color cast after the fact but I have done it on a few images. Depending on the location of the light source you can usually shade the lens to eliminate it. Worst case in challenging light, I take an extra exposure with up to 1/3 of the frame shaded and use the center of that exposure blended with the original.

    2. Resolution on this lens is fantastic but shooting that wide with a full 645 frame you will find you need to stop down to at least f/8 or f/11 to keep things clear to the edge otherwise you will see a little ghosting in the extreme edges of the frame. The HR32 shifted to these extreme FOV exhibits the same behavior.

    3. When shooting things very close to this lens you have to take into account the DOF curvature. You'll need to compensate by stopping down or focusing closer. The closer things are the more you need to compensate for it. Fortunately, this lens does really well stopped down. I routinely shoot f/16 or f/22 and print at full resolution.

    4. This lens is exceptionally sharp in the center and viewing at 100% you will notice a slight falloff in sharpness at probably the last 15%-20% of the image circle. I doubt anyone could see it in print but I know it's there so I usually correct in photoshop with a bit of unsharp mask and blend it in where I need it.

    Your mileage may vary but it helps to have as much insight as possible when approaching this lens. I find myself using this lens more and more often the longer I own it. It opens up possibilities that I just didn't have without it.

    Ed
    Thank you very much Ed! This is the best advice from the best.
    Pramote

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