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Thread: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

  1. #1
    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Thanks to all those who helped me find a digital back!

    In the end I changed systems and went to Mamiya and grabbed Brians AFDIII, Aptus 22, lenses etc.

    My initial thoughts are just how good the IQ is, it takes my 1Ds3, lifts it, slaps it about a bit, threatens to feed it to the pigs and leaves it as a weeping mess in the corner.

    Everything else sucks though, and getting my head around the difference between the two bodies is a harsh thing for me. I don't consider the setup to be bad, more that I've been used to the convenience a 35mm DSLR has afforded me.

    What is going to take a while to get used to is the AF points, I get one essentially, ok I can select the sides of the centre but still not fun. Other than the Pentax 645D a centre point seems common in Modular MF systems and I have to wonder why it's still this way. I shoot wide open most of the time so focus is critical and I do headshots mainly and the eyes are my focus point not the nose!

    The other, is ISO performance, great up to and including 200, 400 is bad unless you have a fast shutter...but then I'd use a lower ISO - Catch22.

    Long term I'm probably going to get a P25+ just for the pixel binning. I can see myself needing to use ISO 400 more often than not.

    The lenses, well, online photos don't do them justice, I've the standard 55, 80 and 150. Compact and solid and feel better built than my L glass costing twice as much. It's difficult to guage IQ because the sensor is different but I'm happy with them. I've just bought the 75-150 and once I know what focal length I prefer for headshots I'll either get the 110LS of the 150D. Possibly the 110.

    I've a point I would like to raise though. I'm so impressed with the IQ that if it had ISO3200 and dual card slots I would use this for weddings in a heartbeat. I have to wonder why since 2004 the only improvement to this particular sensor has been Phase's addition of pixel binning. I don't need more than 22mp but I need high ISO, we've 80mp backs with ISO3200 so I can't see why we don't have it in the 22 other than for marketing reasons.

    I would pay a considerable amount of money to have a MF look to my wedding photos!

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Welcome to the dark side .....

    Just abandon all hope now. MF has never been as simple as 35mm which in turn has never been as simple as P&Shoot! Having done some 4X5, I shutter to think what it would take to do 8X10 on wet plate.

    Your experience exactly echos what I saw in moving from D300 to Mamiya AFD. I moved to a crop sensor P30+ to get speed all around ( ISO/Capture rate)

    Yep, the MF look is really a true thing.

    Dave

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    At first this thread reads like a review before a purchase... You'll like the Aptus 22 and it should be perfect for weddings specifically with controlled lighting - great tones. I'm not sure the Phase One P25+ does pixel binning, but a great DB nonetheless. The learning curve with MFD is not rocket science either, and you'll be shooting great pics in no time. You'll be quite impressed with the difference in IQ. Your last comment though, is slightly confusing because it sounds like you did just spend $ to get the MFD look for weddings. Perhaps the Nikon D800e might be a good addition for you too.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 22nd February 2012 at 06:43.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    At first this threads reads like a review before a purchase... You'll like the Aptus 22 and it should be perfect for weddings specifically with controlled lighting - great tones. I'm not sure the Phase One P25+ does pixel binning, but a great DB nonetheless. The learning curve with MFD is not rocket science either, and you'll be shooting great pics in no time. You'll be quite impressed with the difference in IQ. Your last comment though, is slightly confusing because it sounds like you did just spend $ to get the MFD look for weddings. Perhaps the Nikon D800e might be a good addition for you too.
    I bought it for headshots and general portraiture but I do almost 50 weddings a year. I'm often shooting at ISO 3200, 1/60 second, F2.8 because here in the UK we REALLY don't get much sun at all. I shoot reportage mainly so not much setting up lighting wise either, other than the reception and meal. Dark churches and winter weddings demand a higher ISO.

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    The P25+ does NOT have any form of pixel binning and (though I would rate it as performing 0.5-1.0 stops better than the Aptus 22 in overall ISO performance).

    Phase One Tech Info :: Capture Integration

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Ah sorry Doug, I thought that was what the + meant. I'd get something like an 11mp file in exchange for ISO800.

    Edit: What does the + mean as the above link states the Phase P25 (Non +) is ISO 800 too?

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    Edit: What does the + mean as the above link states the Phase P25 (Non +) is ISO 800 too?
    Pixel binning (sensor +) is only available on P40+ generation and up. Its a really great but underrated feature IMO.

    The + on the older generation backs gave them slightly cleaner higher ISO (originally only up to ISO400 on non +), expose + for londer max exposure time, a better screen and tethered live view. That was main differences I think.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Welcome to the pit!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    Thanks to all those who helped me find a digital back!

    In the end I changed systems and went to Mamiya and grabbed Brians AFDIII, Aptus 22, lenses etc.
    ...
    congratulations!

    I am still working analog in MF, because I am not willing to sell a kidney for a digital back

  10. #10
    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Thanks all, I'll be using it tomorrow alongside the 1Ds3 in natural light. I'll stick some stuff on here.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Look forward to seeing your results. Oh and welcome to the inferno. its a damn big black hole. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Welcome.

    I really don't understand why people are making a big deal about the expense. Just by skipping one $5 Latte a week, you could save up for an MFD system. If you start when you are eight, you can buy it when you retire at 65.

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Imagine skipping 2 lattes a week. LOL

    Seriously compared to other hobby's this is cheap. Go buy a boat and find out. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Congrats!

    I've just done the same thing you have, been shooting the 1Ds III for several years now and finally got an Aptus 22 back from a forum member here. I'm shooting mine with an RZ67 kit, but you are right that the files are just stunning. My 150mm f/3.5 lens wide open is sharper than my 85 L II stopped down.

    I don't think the expense was that bad, the whole kit was cheaper than a 1Ds III plus one lens.

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Welcome.

    I really don't understand why people are making a big deal about the expense. Just by skipping one $5 Latte a week, you could save up for an MFD system. If you start when you are eight, ...
    What a good time... At the age of eight I don't want to get in MFD. I used a Kodak Instamatic - and it was good enough

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Welcome to MFD. I shot primarily with a 5d2 before I made the leap to the Aptus 22 and I can say that it is absolutely great for shooting with.

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post

    The other, is ISO performance, great up to and including 200, 400 is bad unless you have a fast shutter...but then I'd use a lower ISO - Catch22.

    Long term I'm probably going to get a P25+ just for the pixel binning. I can see myself needing to use ISO 400 more often than not.
    Try using Nik Software's Dfine plug-in for noise reduction.
    You will be quite surprised by the result.
    The Aptus 22 has no AA filter so you have a sharper native image and less is lost whe using a noise reduction software.

    The Aptus 22 is a very nice back. Great quality and excellent skin tones.

    If you like shooting wide open you should consider the Hasselblad 110mm f2 with an adapter. It's such a great lens. Sharp yet sort of gentle at the same time. It's the noctilux of MF.

    I have the P25+ and have used the Aptus 22. The quality is very close. The P25+ is a fair bit better for long exposures. The rest is very similar.

    Now you need to go and get a film back for your MF. Portra 160 and Portra 400 have a great look for weddings.

    Check out these guys: Twin Lens Life ~ Fine Art Film Photography ~ Los Angeles Southern California ~ Bwright Photography

  18. #18
    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Thanks Fred, I have the film back too. Took delivery of the 75-150 today... HEAVY LENS.

  19. #19
    Member carl-b's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Congratulations Chris, look forward to seeing the results

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Chris, welcome to the Mamiya Leaf family!

    I would recommend registering your back with us so that you can get regular updates about software etc.: Mamiya Leaf Support

    just a note to say that the P25+ and the Aptus 22 use two totally different sensors from 2 different manufacturers.

    One of the advantages of the Dalsa sensor (Aptus 22) is the faster capture rate, much faster especially if you shoot tethered. Other (arguable) advantages are better colour, better sharpness and better resistance to colour cast (more relevant for tech cameras)

    Phase One tried pixel binning on the early P25 and binned it shortly after. At the time the quality just wasn't there

    Enjoy!

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    FredBGG-

    Thanks for the link, there seems to be more of a trend now for incorporating film in shoots. There's a certain quality to film that digital can never match. A very useful medium indeed!

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Chris,
    You got a great back, so did Sheldon(he bought mine!) I sold the Aptus 22 Mamiya mount because I was switching to the Hassy camera platform and got a P30+ with H1. Now I just need to get the H4x... It's been great, especially the flexibility of the higher ISO stuff when needed. The P30+ back shoots full res at higher ISO's. Being able to shoot at 400-800 with little to no noise is great for outdoor portrait sessions when the sun heads down. It's just a lot more flexible that way, than the Leaf backs. I'm still waiting for one of the big 3 to release a back with a Dalsa sensor with microlenses. Then you'd get the best of both worlds. The advantages of a Dalsa sensor and the ability to shoot at higher ISO's. Plus full res files all the time. I never really understood the "advantage" mentality of the P+ backs that bring down the resolution to 25% of what the back can normally do. I realize it's better than not being able to shoot at high ISO at all. But it's basically just lessening a huge negative. Making the best of a bad situation. If you're paying 45k for a back that can shoot at 80 MP and only 20MP at higher ISO, that's not really getting your money's worth in my opinion. It seems that Dalsa does have a sensor that would be perfect. I'm open to being corrected if I'm wrong. Can someone PLEASE put this or an updated version in your digital back?!!!

    FTF6080C 48 MP Color CCD - Product Detail - Teledyne DALSA

    Cheers,
    Josh

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Josh I think your missing the whole point of sensor plus. Check this out and you can see why there are big advantages.

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/digita...-high-iso.html
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Chris, welcome to the Mamiya Leaf family!
    just a note to say that the P25+ and the Aptus 22 use two totally different sensors from 2 different manufacturers.

    One of the advantages of the Dalsa sensor (Aptus 22) is the faster capture rate, much faster especially if you shoot tethered. Other (arguable) advantages are better colour, better sharpness and better resistance to colour cast (more relevant for tech cameras)
    Yair,

    They've the same pixel size, same sensor size (+/- 1 mm), same lack of AA filter, and can be used on the same body with the same lenses...so...I'm genuinely curious: how does the Aptus deliver "better sharpness"?

    In the same vein, since neither sensor uses microlenses, why does the Aptus deliver "better resistance to colour cast" on tech cameras?

    Ray

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Aptus is Dalsa and P25+ is Kodak. They are different sensors and act different. Kind of like a Kodachrome vs a Extachrome they have different qualities to them
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Chris, welcome to the fold.

    Yup, Mr. Sun doesn't bless us with his presence very much over here in Ireland either!

    To answer your question, MFD has not moved on much in ISO terms since 2004 - no, actually, since about 1998 - because at base ISO, the backs are already operating at the (high) noise floor that the sensor permits.

    Yes, readout noise specs have fallen somewhat as MFD pixel "generations" have moved from 12 microns, to 9 microns, to 7.2/6.8 microns, to 6 microns.

    But when you normalize the readnoise to a common area, say that of a 9 micron pixel or a 6 micron pixel or just 1 square micron, they all hover stubbornly at around the same level! In fact, some of the newer sensors come out marginally worse than some of the older ones!

    Pixel binning, in some of the Phase One backs (the ones with recent Dalsa sensors), gets around this; it allows a quadrupling of acceptable ISO by a quartering of readnoise per unit area. Of course, there's also a quartering of net pixel count.

    Ray

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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Aptus is Dalsa and P25+ is Kodak. They are different sensors and act different. Kind of like a Kodachrome vs a Extachrome they have different qualities to them
    Yes, I've no problem with their colour differences. But their other similar properties do not explain (to me) a difference in either sharpness, or propensity for colour casts when viewcam lenses are shifted. I hope that Yair can address this, since he knows the Aptus tech inside out.

    Ray

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    I've Kodak on my back, Creo Leaf (Is that Dalsa or Kodak)?

    Ok guys, as promised I just finished a shoot.

    Before I go into example images. I do a lot of weddings and also Actors headshots. The Aptus back was sought to improve shooting output over my much loved 1Ds3.

    After todays shoot I'm left in two minds. I'm very happy with the IQ although my light meter cannot seem to be trusted. What the Sekonic L358 says is correct (and is correct on my 1Ds3) appears in certain situations to be 1-2 stops under on my Aptus 22. This needs further investigation as it may be down to bad methodology.

    I'm not happy with the focus speed and accuracy. It's rubbish to the point I'll be bold enough to ask how they can make a camera this way (sorry). I think my H1 may be better but don't have a digital back to rapidly fire off a load of shots. However overall sharpness on the image is improved but I like to have my focal point on the eye. This will be the only reason I don't keep it and I might just swan back to the H1, stick an Aptus back on that and have done with it.

    Minimum focal distance of the 150 3.5 is too long, need to either get the 110 LS or the 150 2.8, I think the 110 is the best choice but this needs more looking into. I don't know if it's the back or the lens but the 85L doesn't seem to render as well as the 150 3.5 does, even wide open.

    Anyway, here's the resulting shots, apart from White Balance it is pretty much as they are from the cameras, processed in Lightroom.

    Light setup with a Sekonic L-358, White Balance set with a Colorite Passport.
    Systems used: Mamiya AFDIII + Leaf Aptus 22 + 150mm 3.5 and a Canon 1Ds3 + 85L II








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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    Minimum focal distance of the 150 3.5 is too long, need to either get the 110 LS or the 150 2.8, I think the 110 is the best choice but this needs more looking into. I don't know if it's the back or the lens but the 85L doesn't seem to render as well as the 150 3.5 does, even wide open.
    Chris, I shoot with a Pentax 645D. I have found the best solution was the Pentax 120mm Macro, not only is it one of the Pentax 645 lenses Pentax made at any distance, but minimum focus distance is not an issue--I can't see myself taking portraits at at more than 1:1. I would imagine a Mamiya 120 Macro would be as good.

    The rendering is to do with the sensor size as much as anything else.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    I thought of using a Macro, but they are all manual focus from what I found out?

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Yes, I've no problem with their colour differences. But their other similar properties do not explain (to me) a difference in either sharpness, or propensity for colour casts when viewcam lenses are shifted. I hope that Yair can address this, since he knows the Aptus tech inside out.

    Ray
    9 vs 9 but some of those microns on the Kodak are taken by over-spill "gutters" that are not part of the active/ sensitive area. These gaps also affect the uniformity (RGB) across the image, sharpness and falloff towards the edges etc.

    Shoot an LCC frame with both sensors with the same lens and compare the RGB readings. Add a bit of shift with a wide-angle lens and the differences become more obvious. This is also compounded by the fact that the pixels on the Kodak are deeper with higher "walls" so light coming in an angle gets swollen instead of hitting an active area

    Some say that the RGB filters on the 22MP Dalsa are also better than on the Kodak, which contribute to better colour and less "garbage" in the Blue channel...

    Same design differences are true for 7.2 vs 6.8 and as far as I can tell also for 6 Vs 6. Kodak hasn't made a large-area 5.2 sensor so I cannot comment on that one

    You keep blowing the Kodak trumpet but in reality image quality is made out of more than just on-paper read noise and there are some people who shoot subjects in studios or in daylight you know....

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Yair, where can I go to try out the 110 LS and 2.8 D?
    Or to borrow for a day to see what suits me best in the studio?

    Thanks!
    Chris

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    People, no question get the 110mm LS
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    Yair, where can I go to try out the 110 LS and 2.8 D?
    Or to borrow for a day to see what suits me best in the studio?

    Thanks!
    Chris
    The 110mm LS won't work on your AFDIII, you'll need a 645DF for that one....

    Contact any of our London dealers either Peartree or Calumet they should have the 150mm/ 2.8 in rental/ demo

    BR

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  35. #35
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    I like the skin tones of the Dalsa, but nothing post can't fix. As far as resolution from these photos shows, the 1Ds is just fine, and perfectly capable if not printing wall size posters.

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Hmmm, hate to say it out loud ... but everything you have brought up is completely or partially solved with a H4D/40 ... which I have used to shoot wedding stuff with in gloomy Michigan's Lake effect, English like environment ... and portrait/fashion/commercial in studio with strobes.

    Extraordinary full resolution ISO 800, and excellent 1600 without pixel binning.

    True Focus APL effectively eliminating the need for AF points all over the viewfinder, even the ability to accurately focus at the far edge of the frame and recompose.

    HC100/2.2 AF lens with an equivalent 130mm FOV making it perfect for head shots like those shown ... using a small, agile and brilliant lens.

    Ability to set mirror delay for hand-held work, that combined with leaf shutters in all lenses, improves use of lower shutter speeds in low light.

    Just sayin'

    Now running for cover ...

    -Marc

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Hmmm, hate to say it out loud ... but everything you have brought up is completely or partially solved with a H4D/40 ... which I have used to shoot wedding stuff with in gloomy Michigan's Lake effect, English like environment ... and portrait/fashion/commercial in studio with strobes.

    Extraordinary full resolution ISO 800, and excellent 1600 without pixel binning.

    True Focus APL effectively eliminating the need for AF points all over the viewfinder, even the ability to accurately focus at the far edge of the frame and recompose.

    HC100/2.2 AF lens with an equivalent 130mm FOV making it perfect for head shots like those shown ... using a small, agile and brilliant lens.

    Ability to set mirror delay for hand-held work, that combined with leaf shutters in all lenses, improves use of lower shutter speeds in low light.

    Just sayin'

    Now running for cover ...

    -Marc
    Take cover!

    True Focus has it's limits. It only really helps with wider lenses, Hasselblad states this too.

    "Absolute Position Lock" only accounts for angular movements. It does not
    account for the photographer moving forward or backwards

    Leaf shutter is limited to 1/800th and you can only use hasselblad lenses.
    When the sun comes out you can pretty much forget shooting wide open.

    Small sensor 33x44mm does not give you the same effect and shallow depth of field as bigger sensors do. You are cropping away much of the format.
    Limits wide angle coverage too.


    NO FILM SUPPORT....

    I also don't like the Hasselblad viewfinder.

    I'm no absolute fan of the Phase One either.

    Both could use some improvement.. like as many focusing points as an entry level canon or nikon.

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Take cover!

    True Focus has it's limits. It only really helps with wider lenses, Hasselblad states this too.

    "Absolute Position Lock" only accounts for angular movements. It does not
    account for the photographer moving forward or backwards

    Leaf shutter is limited to 1/800th and you can only use hasselblad lenses.
    When the sun comes out you can pretty much forget shooting wide open.

    Small sensor 33x44mm does not give you the same effect and shallow depth of field as bigger sensors do. You are cropping away much of the format.
    Limits wide angle coverage too.


    NO FILM SUPPORT....

    I also don't like the Hasselblad viewfinder.

    I'm no absolute fan of the Phase One either.

    Both could use some improvement.. like as many focusing points as an entry level canon or nikon.
    Well, that isn't exactly what Hasselblad says about the use of True Focus. Proximity to subject and how far off-center the worse the problem becomes ... naturally, wide angle lenses with wide FOV exhibit this more than longer focal lengths ... but it still works for faster max aperture lenses like the 100/2.2 when the subject is close and more off to the side.

    Of course it doesn't work if you are moving back or forth ... either do multiple focus points if recomposing, you have to re-focus just like with TF.

    Yes the shutter is limited to 1/800, but all the lenses from 28mm to 300mm have a sync speed of 1/800th, not 1/125th and in the "English" applications the OP mentioned 1/800th doesn't seem to be the issue ... higher ISOs are.

    The difference between a 1.1X and 1.3X sensor in terms of DOF is negligible ...the 100/2.2 shot close wide open the DOF is wafer thin on either 1.1X and 1.3X camera. Most of the higher ISO performing (1600) sensors are 1.3X

    Liking the viewfinder or not is subjective. At least you can use a WLF if you want.

    What is film?

    -Marc

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    You keep blowing the Kodak trumpet but in reality image quality is made out of more than just on-paper read noise and there are some people who shoot subjects in studios or in daylight you know....

    Yair
    Wow. That was really nice. I know Ray and he is interested. But you remind me why I really value dealers...

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    What is film?
    -Marc
    This:

    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    FredBGG,

    Beautiful- Film has so much character!

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Wow. That was really nice. I know Ray and he is interested. But you remind me why I really value dealers...
    Nobody's talking about dealers here, we're talking sensors (or that's what I thought we did...)

    But if you insist I actually value the dealers very much, especially those who are passionate about the product they sell, this is not dissimilar to photographers who are passionate about what they do and what they sell...and BTW there was no offence meant towards Ray...don't know why you took it that way?

    Back to topic now...
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    Anyway, here's the resulting shots, apart from White Balance it is pretty much as they are from the cameras, processed in Lightroom.
    The Adobe Camera Raw conversion of Phase one files is terrible and if I recall correctly it was pretty crappy with the Aptus files too.

    Try Capture One.

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    The Adobe Camera Raw conversion of Phase one files is terrible and if I recall correctly it was pretty crappy with the Aptus files too.

    Try Capture One.
    Agreed. The output is MUCH better (and I use LR for my wedding workflow).

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    This:

    Nice. Was that with a 645 film back?

    RE: WHAT's FILM, Just yankin' your chain Fred. Love B&W film ... but not as much from a 645 camera. Prefer either gritty 35mm or tone rich 6X7 ... never cared for in-between all that much ... which is why I never cared if my 645 digital camera shot film or not.

    But I'm done with film ... finally tossed out all the darkroom stuff and will donate my Kaiser MF enlarger to some school or something.

    Marc

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    Agreed. The output is MUCH better (and I use LR for my wedding workflow).
    I just put a couple of files through a trial of C1 and compared to LR3 there isn't much in them. Least not enough for me to make the switch. But, it's something I will play with.

    One thing that is trowing me a little is that I cannot seem to find anything, anywhere, about the curve and portrait modes on the back, C1 has them listed as things like Aptus 22 Open, Aptus 22 Portrait, Portrait soft etc.

    These aren't present in Lightroom.

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    LR uses its own contrast/ curve controls so if you're using LR you'll have to work your way there...
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Nobody's talking about dealers here, we're talking sensors (or that's what I thought we did...)

    But if you insist I actually value the dealers very much, especially those who are passionate about the product they sell, this is not dissimilar to photographers who are passionate about what they do and what they sell...and BTW there was no offence meant towards Ray...don't know why you took it that way?

    Back to topic now...
    Yair and Shashin, no worries - I took no offence whatsoever. I was genuine in my "genuinely curious" remark - I was open to new information and Yair came up trumps, providing some really, really interesting new information. It would be great if there was some central public storehouse of such information - other than in the brains of people like Yair!

    The thing that frustrates me is that MFD manufacturers constantly tout the technological superiority of their products - their market is carved out on the basis that "we can sell you better image quality" - but they are notoriously reticent to properly and fully explain how that superiority is achieved.

    Of late I've been conducting an email correspondence with someone at PhaseOne, trying to get some idea of how their XPose+ technology does what it does in long exposures. It's been an extraordinarily frustrating experience. I've never encountered such evasive paranoia. "Like trying to get blood from a stone".

    By profession I'm a scientist. The rule in science is: if you don't explain your methods to me, then I just don't trust them.

    Ray

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Some other examples: try asking for the CCD datasheets for the Kodak sensor in the Leica S2, or the 40/60/80 MP Dalsa sensors in the big Leaf and Phase One backs.

    Complete brick wall of silence.

    Ray

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    Re: I finally managed to get a MF Digital setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    I just put a couple of files through a trial of C1 and compared to LR3 there isn't much in them. Least not enough for me to make the switch. But, it's something I will play with.

    One thing that is trowing me a little is that I cannot seem to find anything, anywhere, about the curve and portrait modes on the back, C1 has them listed as things like Aptus 22 Open, Aptus 22 Portrait, Portrait soft etc.

    These aren't present in Lightroom.
    Hasselblad's Focus software has the same type of selections ... which also are not in LR. The equivalent in LR would be User Presets that you would build and load based on your personal tastes.

    Since the Leica S2 doesn't have a proprietary software, and uses DNG files for processing in LR, users have developed their own Presets for quick batching access.

    Personally, I also use third party plug-ins in LR to accomplish certain looks on layers so I can modify them at will.

    For any large output processing like a wedding, I almost exclusively use LR because of the extensive tools and no need to ever take an image out of the Library ... and now LR4 has taken all that to yet another level of control. Can't wait until it is out of beta, optimized and running fast.

    -Marc

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