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Thread: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

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    Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Dear all;

    At the DV workshop, using the tech cameras was great. That said, even in the MFDB world, moving from a P30+ to an IQ160 + tech cam is a big lump sum ...

    As I was talking with all the very clever tech people there, I got the impression that the P30+ would support the level of shift that the 50 shift has, and do this without all the horrible things that would happen with a P30+ on a tech camera.

    So, the question is ... will the 50 shift allow me to get the foreground in focus while at the same time getting as much of the background in focus as possible.

    Asked another way, will the 50 shift let me do the racetrack shot without focus stacking?

    Dave

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    The easy answer is No, it won't, because this lens only has shift movements, no tilt movements, which is what you need to reorient the plane of focus.

    However, if you need shift movements to eliminate unecessary foreground, then it should work reasonably well for you. I use a modified version of this lens on my Contax 645 with a P30+ back and for my needs, it works very well indeed. You can read some of my comments about the combo in a post I made to another thread:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/384654-post22.html

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    How about putting your p30+ on the back of a Fuji gx680 with a capture group adapter.

    The Fuji gx680 has tilt and shift on all lenses and is an slr.
    The lenses are really good and some have very shallow depth of field when you want it.
    The lenses are designed to tilt and shift on a 6x8 negative, so you would have way more room than you would need on a 645 sensor.

    The only limitation is that the widest lens is a 50mm, but you can also have tilt and shift on a 300mm and 500mm.

    Prices are excellent on these cameras.


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    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    I love that picture. Knowing how big the back is, you get a sense of what a monster the GX680 must be. And we thought the RZ67 was large...

    --Matt
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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    I though the P30 and P30+ have micro lenses that cause problems when you tilt the lens. Am I mistaken?

    Mr.Gale

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Also known as the Howitzer

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    My ones live at least on monopods


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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Mr Gale ...

    On of the great things about the DPI workshops is that there are a bunch of really really smart folks there! Going in, I thought the same things too.

    What I kept see/reading was that the P30+ would not work on a tech camera due to the micro lenses, what was getting processed is that a P30+ would not work with tilt and shift. Two very different things.

    If I understood those smart folks at the workshop, IF mounted on an SLR body, and with a lens that has T/S or just S, the P30+ will be OK. It has to do with light ray paths, retro-focal lens design, and some other bits of physics that I was not really paying attention too. Point is, I think the 50mm tilts, the super rotators, or the GX680 are all viable solutions to get movements and keep the P30+

    None of these get around the facts that they are all work arounds for not having a tech camera and a back without micro lenses!

    Dave

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Saw a couple of these at Mr Cad on my trip to the UK last week.

    Was sorely tempted, but my carry-on was already full

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Also known as the Howitzer

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Thanks Dave. I'm new to MFD as I just purchased a P30 for my Hasselblad V and am very low on the learning curve. I have been a 4x5 shooter for a zillion years so I'm having a hard time giving up rise, fall, T&S. At some point (in other words, when I can afford it) I would like to have a back I could use with a small view camera.

    Mr.Gale

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Gale View Post
    At some point (in other words, when I can afford it) I would like to have a back I could use with a small view camera.
    Have you considered using a FlexBody? It will provide much the same functionality of a small view camera, you presumably already own all the lenses you will need, and thanks to the long-ish lens register around which the Hasselblad V system was designed, it will work fairly well with your P30+ back with reasonable amounts of tilt and shift.

    Perhaps best of all, though (as it appears you're on a budget), used ones are widely available and reasonably priced these days!

  12. #12
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    You're killing me with these pics, Fred... I have such lust for the 680 that it ALMOST makes me want to "upgrade" my RZIID system. How is using the kapturegroup one-shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    My ones live at least on monopods


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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    The FlexBody is a good idea but I'm still a little skeptical that a P30 will work. Phase One states: "Technical & large format camera support
    Note: Wide angle and large format tilt and swing positions may produce a colorcast in the image".
    I wish I had one to try.
    Thanks,

    Mr.Gale

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Gale View Post
    The FlexBody is a good idea but I'm still a little skeptical that a P30 will work. Phase One states: "Technical & large format camera support
    Note: Wide angle and large format tilt and swing positions may produce a colorcast in the image".
    And they're absolutely correct, but the last time I checked, Hasselblad didn't make any large-format lenses. The reason why a P30 (and P30+) will work with shift and tilts in many instances, but not when mounted on a "technical & large-format" camera, has to do with the lens register (simply put, this the distance from the lens to the sensor) of the lenses that are used.

    In general, the greater the distance from the lens to the sensor, the more telecentric the light rays that emanate from the lens will be and it's the lack of telecentricity that causes color shifts. Wide-angle lenses used on technical and large-format cameras typically have lens registers that are much shorter than lenses that are used on SLRs hence the light rays must be "bent" to a greater degree to reach the outer edges of the sensor than for lenses with longer lens registers because the lens is located closer to the sensor. Draw yourself a simple diagram and you should quickly see the relationship between the distance of the lens from the sensor and the angle of the light rays that are required to reach the corners of it.

    Specifically in the case of your Hasselblad SLR, which uses retrofocus lens designs, the lens register is 74.9mm, which is up to several times longer than the registers that are typical for wide-angle, non-retrofocus lens designs of the type commonly used on technical and large-format cameras. This is the reason why a P30-series back will actually work very well with reasonable shift and tilt movements in some applications, but not work very well at all on a technical or large-format camera.

    As it happens, I own a Hasselblad Flexbody myself and I have successfully used it with my P30+ back and moderate amounts of shift and tilt movements without any need to correct for color shifts. Of course, it helps that I convert my photos to B&W, but for small amounts of movement -- say, less 6mm or less -- I haven't seen any significant color shifts before I convert the files to B&W.

    That said, the P30-series backs are by no means the ideal choice for this application and if you plan to use your digital back with a technical or large-format camera at some point in the future, then you would do well to buy a back that doesn't have any such fundamental limitations.

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Quote Originally Posted by djonesii View Post
    Dear all;

    At the DV workshop, using the tech cameras was great. That said, even in the MFDB world, moving from a P30+ to an IQ160 + tech cam is a big lump sum ...

    As I was talking with all the very clever tech people there, I got the impression that the P30+ would support the level of shift that the 50 shift has, and do this without all the horrible things that would happen with a P30+ on a tech camera.

    So, the question is ... will the 50 shift allow me to get the foreground in focus while at the same time getting as much of the background in focus as possible.

    Asked another way, will the 50 shift let me do the racetrack shot without focus stacking?

    Dave

    Dave -

    I think your mileage will vary. Since you already own a P30+, then it makes sense to test the boundaries. Anyone considering a P30+ should know that this would not be the ideal.

    FYI - We have a 50mm shift lens in rental if you'd like to try it.

    ***Edit - sorry, I missed that you needed tilt, which tosses out the 50mm shift lens for any help on expanding depth of field.


    Steve Hendrix
    Last edited by Steve Hendrix; 6th March 2012 at 14:01.
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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    A-D, thank you for your detail post, it helps a lot!

    Mr.Gale

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    You can't get enough DoF at f/16 or f/22?

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    You can't get enough DoF at f/16 or f/22?
    It's not just a DOF issue, it's a plane of focus issue, The problem is most clearly defined in the "race track" shots from Death Valley. You have a boulder right at the base of your tripod about three feet away, almost straight down. At the same time, you want the mountains in the distance sharp.

    One solution is to take a few frames with different focus points, and then stack them.

    Another solution is to move one part of the optical system or an other. If I understand correctly, in a view camera, this could be the back standard, or the front standard with either tilt/shift, or you could twist one or the other and get swing.

    A technical camera is a subset of this, you can rise/fall to frame, then with a tilt/Shift movement on the lens board, you t/s.

    with a DSLR and a fixed lens, your only option is focus stacking. If you have A t/s lens, you can get the t/s part of a technical camera, but not the rise/fall.

    So, no, DOF i.e. stopping down is not the answer.

    In landscape and some types of product photography, this is a very important issue, and when I made my P30+ decision, landscape was but a glimmer in my mind that I quickly dismissed. My dealer fully informed me, and I made a cost/utility decision. Now having been on the workshop, touched the stuff, I wonder if there is a way that I can access some of those other options.

    Dave

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Ah, that racetrack--I was thinking Belmont...

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    This racetrack. LOL

    TILT

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Is that Secretariat or Seattle Slew rounding the clubhouse turn??
    Bryan

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    I got 20 on Seattle Slew
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    This racetrack. LOL

    TILT

    or, you could just stack

    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Alpa shooters stack dude. ROTFLMAO

    Sorry this is a ongoing joke between Graham and I. LOL

    Hey your package is ready to ship. Just say the word
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    I love that picture. Knowing how big the back is, you get a sense of what a monster the GX680 must be. And we thought the RZ67 was large...

    --Matt
    Next workshop, Amr will have the RZ67 on one hip, the GX680 on the other, and a Cambo in each hand.
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    Re: Mamiya 50 shift on AFD w/ P30+

    Hi Dave -

    Not sure if there is a little confusion here?

    In Canon parlance, when people refer to "tilt-shift" lenses on DSLR's (such as the Canon TS-E range):

    Tilt = tilt and swing
    Shift = shift and rise/fall


    For shift:
    On a view camera, you typically have the ability to independently shift horizontally and rise/fall vertically. On the TS-E's, you can shift only along one axis, but crucially you can rotate the lens to set that axis at any angle you choose.

    Here's an example of a diagonal shift on the 17mm TS-E:



    For tilt/swing:
    On a view camera, again, have the ability to independently set the amount of tilt on one axis, and swing on the other. Similar to the above, with "tilt" on the TS-E's, you can set the amount of tilt that you want, and then rotate the axis around which that tilt occurs. For example, if you set what would be referred to as a left/right swing in a view camera on a TS-E, you can then rotate the tilt part of the lens through 90 degrees so that the swing then becomes an up-down tilt in view camera parlance.

    Here's an example of tilt being used on the 45mm TS-E:



    With the older TS-E's (24mm Mk I, 45mm and 90mm), the axes of the tilt and shift portions of the lenses are fixed perpendicular to one another. You can combine a left/right shift with an up/down tilt, or an up/down rise & fall with a left/right swing (and then rotate the entire lens assembly), but no other combination (note that some people do choose to physically disassemble and reassemble the lens in order to be able to combine shift with swing).

    With the newer Canon TS-E's (17mm and 24mm Mk II), it is possible to independently set the rotational axis of both the tilt and shift elements of the lens, effectively giving you an equivalent freedom as you would have by using movements on the front standard of a view camera.

    Regards,

    Gerald.

    /edit.

    Ahah. Knew I had one knocking around somewhere. Here's an image using both "tilt" (swing) and "shift" (rise):



    Quote Originally Posted by djonesii View Post
    A technical camera is a subset of this, you can rise/fall to frame, then with a tilt/Shift movement on the lens board, you t/s.

    with a DSLR and a fixed lens, your only option is focus stacking. If you have A t/s lens, you can get the t/s part of a technical camera, but not the rise/fall.

    Dave
    Last edited by gerald.d; 8th March 2012 at 12:17.

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