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Thread: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I think Christopher is right. And it should not be forgotten that the Canon EF mount is significantly wider in Diameter, which allows for better lensconstruction. And you can bet these over 35 something MPix bodies will need every iota of technical advantage to use these pixels.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    People have to remember it is a photokina year and Canon will respond. That they can we have seen. It just a question when. I would never sell of my Canon gear for a Nikon camera. If I really thought to need the d800 I would sell my 5DII and buy it with 1-2 lenses I would want to have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    I think Christopher is right. And it should not be forgotten that the Canon EF mount is significantly wider in Diameter, which allows for better lensconstruction. And you can bet these over 35 something MPix bodies will need every iota of technical advantage to use these pixels.

    Regards
    Stefan
    I think you are right. Unless one needs the D800 now, it might be a good time to buy Canon lenses

    I am very interested to see where Sony will use this sensor.

    Tom

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    And it should not be forgotten that the Canon EF mount is significantly wider in Diameter, which allows for better lensconstruction. And you can bet these over 35 something MPix bodies will need every iota of technical advantage to use these pixels.
    Kind of an irrelevant spec. The D800 sensor works out at about 100l/mm which is hardly a monumental target, even in the silver age of photography.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    IIRC, the Canon 7D actually has a higher pixel density than the D800, so looking for decent lens performance at this level is nothing new.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Not sure what you've got invested in Canon, but selling it all off just to get the D800 now might be a little short sighted?

    If you've got a significant amount invested in Canon - particularly lenses - might it not be worth waiting a while to see how Canon respond?

    The cost of replacing many thousands of dollars worth of Canon glass with Nikon would, I assume, not be insignificant. If Canon release something a year down the line that performs as good as the D800, would you be comfortable with the loss you incurred on changing the glass?
    You're absolutely right: I have already kicked myself for selling a Nikon 70-200VRII last summer when the D7000 I was trying out failed to impress. I have decided to keep my favourite Canon glass (Leica R adapted, to do service on the D800e too, 35L, 24-105, 100-400) and just sell the stuff that's surplus to requirements. If I can get a half decent price for the 5DII I'll sell it, otherwise it can be a holiday home camera. I really should have learned by now: NEVER EVER EVER sell good glass - it goes up in value faster than inflation! That's why I'm keeping all my Leica M glass even though selling the M9...

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Coming from the "having neither" camp, I'm looking at this afresh.

    Since it may be a year until I can spring for the IQ160, an 800E and Schneider PC lens is looking like a good landscape/architecture kit. If the RAW files can be pushed around without shadow noise or banding in any way resembling the Phase's, I'll give it a go.

    --Matt
    I was going to share my early impressions this morning Matt, and saw your post and it asks a question that is exactly on point:

    First off let me say that the files are excellent, the color is very good and the noise handling is spectacular. I am processing them in ACR and LR and am liking what I'm seeing very much. (I cannot wait to get them in C1.) I will even go so far as to say this is the best DSLR file I have seen to date as relates to color, noise and *captured* dynamic range.

    However, the file does NOT have the malleability of the Phase file; you cannot crank shadows way up and hold the quality like you can on the IQ, so what I'd call the output DR is still superior on the IQ file. The other thing you notice immediately is how much less the image "zooms" when you go to 100% as compared to the IQ180 -- very close pixel pitches, so that makes sense.

    I need to shoot some people in good outdoor light to comment on how it handles skin. So far from interior shots, it looks pretty darn good, but again, does not appear to full MF caliber.

    So, is it an MF replacement? No, I don't think so. To me, the most obvious difference is the MF files still have more elasticity to them, and that is something I use a lot to get my final working file to where i want it. But for a shooter who cannot enter MF, I will step out on that limb and say the D800 appears to be the best thing going to date in the DSLR league.
    Jack
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    The main point is uniformity over the used sensor plane. Having a larger lens diameter allows for more "spare" image circle, using the sweet spot of the focal length used. This is what most of the Leica R and also Contax Lenses did and why they were so good (and so expensive).
    A peak center performance is ok for film usage where there is no electronic improval applied to the image. On a digital photo it counts to have a whole number of steps of image calculations performed. The killer for this is differing properties over the file.
    This was the reason I wanted to use the Hasselblad V lenskits for our Hartbleis on 35mm full format, and it turned out to be working perfectly.
    The images do not "fall apart" even if you work heavily on them.

    And last but not least, only a larger diameter will allow highly opened apertures for fast lenses.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    The main point is uniformity over the used sensor plane. Having a larger lens diameter allows for more "spare" image circle, using the sweet spot of the focal length used. This is what most of the Leica R and also Contax Lenses did and why they were so good (and so expensive).
    A peak center performance is ok for film usage where there is no electronic improval applied to the image. On a digital photo it counts to have a whole number of steps of image calculations performed. The killer for this is differing properties over the file.
    This was the reason I wanted to use the Hasselblad V lenskits for our Hartbleis on 35mm full format, and it turned out to be working perfectly.
    The images do not "fall apart" even if you work heavily on them.

    And last but not least, only a larger diameter will allow highly opened apertures for fast lenses.

    regards
    Stefan
    Leica and Contax don't/didn't seem to be handicapped by a smaller lens mount than Canon. The size of the image circle has nothing optically to do with the size of the mount, at least with the mount sizes on DSLRs. I can't think of a focal length or aperture that could not be achieved on a Nikon mount--BTW, Leica has glass with larger apertures and with a smaller mount. There seems to be a confusion between mechanical specifications and optic ones. I'm sorry, I just don't see an issue here.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    While we're on the subject of lenses, I had a look at the applicable T/S lenses. I understood that the Canon 17 and 24 mmT/S lenses were highly regarded, but the examples I can find online with the reasonable amounts of shift looked very soft in the corners, even at f/8-f/11. I know I'm spoiled from using SK lenses on a Cambo, and if the corners just have sky, it's not a problem, but ?

    Are the latest Nikon T/S lenses good when shifted? How about the Schneider PC lens for 35mm cameras?

    --Matt

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Guy,

    Great points! I'm curious now, about Zeiss primes, especially the 25mm f/2. The D800 is most certainly not going to replace MFD, but reading these comments about comparisons to MFD, and i'm as giddy as a school girl! With the savings over MFD, one can purchase lights, lenses, another camera, cars...

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    I understood that the Canon 17 and 24 mmT/S lenses were highly regarded,
    They are.

    but the examples I can find online with the reasonable amounts of shift looked very soft in the corners, even at f/8-f/11. I know I'm spoiled from using SK lenses on a Cambo,
    Yes, you are.

    Are the latest Nikon T/S lenses good when shifted? How about the Schneider PC lens for 35mm cameras?
    Nikon 24 is not as highly regarded as Canon's new 24. The 85's are both excellent, 45's very good, and of course Canon has the 17 and it's remarkable given what it's doing. All copies of the Schneider 28PC have been marginal performers, the contemporary 24's from N or C being much better...
    Jack
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Jack,

    Thanks. I'm getting a pretty good idea where things stand. Still, the D800E/24 TS combo looks like an insanely good value. I've printed crops of some of the sample RAW files at 20x30 inch total print size, and they're impressive.

    --Matt

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    At the age of film, "sensors" were identical for both 35mm and MF.
    But I never reached with my M6 the magic touch I got with my Contax 645 and its great lenses (especially portraits).

    If 35mm sensor technology delivers now or in the future similar performance to MF, we only come back to that age, where both formats lived together well.

    On my side, I don't like the colours out of my Canon, and only keep few pictures from it, that are great regarding the content but always flat compared to my Sinar. And for travel photography in low light, for some video, it is necessary to have a dslr.
    So if there is now a dslr that delivers MF level file performance, I will be happy to combine rich magic pictures out of the MF and rich good pictures out of the dslr.
    I only wish that the sensor would have been a 22 MPix, as 36 might bring more issues (file size & system requirements, focusing accuracy,..) than value.

    Thanks for this thread, I am very interested also with the feed-backs on lenses.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Roger has some interesting observations

    LensRentals.com - “D” resolution tests
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I found a tidbit of one comment he made quite interesting and so I quickly posted a response. This is what I mentioned....

    "Excellent comparisons with the time constraints you were under. Interesting comment regarding the Pentax 645D. If I understood your comments correctly, with one or some of it’s better performing lenses. it reaches approx 1500 lp/ih? If so the difference between it and the D800 is roughly 67% the difference found between the D700 and D800. Thats quite astounding since the difference between the D700 and D800 is roughly 3x the actual # of pixels whereby were only talking about a difference of 4MP difference between the D800 and 645D. Of course the comparison takes into account more than this as we’re comparing different formats and different sized sensors. Still thats somewhat of a significant difference. Just a dislaimer…I shoot with both the 645D and Nikon system, so I’m not biased to their relative merits in performance to one another." (end of comment).

    Of course comparitive results when comparing any two cameras or systems is dependent on lens choices and what is required to achieve "best" results. With one system, it possibly could be achieved with a large variety of excellent high performance lenses that are readily available while another system might require picking from a smaller handfull of lenses capable of achieving such "high" results along with extraordinary careful shooting techniques.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    ...All copies of the Schneider 28PC have been marginal performers, the contemporary 24's from N or C being much better...
    You've had several marginal Schneider 28s?

    That's curious. I've seen a couple of disappointing reviews of this lens online, but other by people who have used them side by side with the Nikons and Canons report very different results.

    By most accounts the newest Canon 24 is remarkable, possibly the best shift TS lens made.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraphael View Post
    You've had several marginal Schneider 28s?
    Between Guy and I back in our Canon days we tried at least 5 and maybe 6 -- none of them passed muster for us. Perhaps the folks you know are less demanding or never bothered to actually shift them and test?
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    I found a tidbit of one comment he made quite interesting and so I quickly posted a response. This is what I mentioned....

    "Excellent comparisons with the time constraints you were under. Interesting comment regarding the Pentax 645D. If I understood your comments correctly, with one or some of it’s better performing lenses. it reaches approx 1500 lp/ih? If so the difference between it and the D800 is roughly 67% the difference found between the D700 and D800. Thats quite astounding since the difference between the D700 and D800 is roughly 3x the actual # of pixels whereby were only talking about a difference of 4MP difference between the D800 and 645D. Of course the comparison takes into account more than this as we’re comparing different formats and different sized sensors. Still thats somewhat of a significant difference. Just a dislaimer…I shoot with both the 645D and Nikon system, so I’m not biased to their relative merits in performance to one another." (end of comment).

    Of course comparitive results when comparing any two cameras or systems is dependent on lens choices and what is required to achieve "best" results. With one system, it possibly could be achieved with a large variety of excellent high performance lenses that are readily available while another system might require picking from a smaller handfull of lenses capable of achieving such "high" results along with extraordinary careful shooting techniques.

    Dave (D&A)
    Dave Have you ever tried your Pentax 645 on any Nikon body?

    ACH

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Between Guy and I back in our Canon days we tried at least 5 and maybe 6 -- none of them passed muster for us. Perhaps the folks you know are less demanding or never bothered to actually shift them and test?
    Seems unlikely. I've been emailing with a local (NYC) achitectural photographer who replaced his generation 1 Canon TSE with the Schneider. Said the Schneider spanked it in every way.

    Now he has the generation 2 Canon and writes the following: "I like the Canons "better" because of the focal lengths mostly. The 24 is lot more useful indoors, and the 17 is just nuts- it always leaves the clients happy. I think both the canons (the new canon's, not the old ones) are great - but are they are equal in terms of quality to the schneider. Also because they don;t have the manual open/close mechanism"

    My personal experience with these lenses is limited. I rented a Nikon 24 PC for a job recently, which wasn't especially demanding. Also the light was very crisp and contrasty. The results looked very good.

    I've recently picked up a used Schneider and have been testing it as thoroughly as I can, but every time I've been out with it there's been flat light and overcast. So far it seems sharp as anything I've used on axis, and softer (but not in a distracting way) toward the edges of the image circle). Which likewise describes my 210 Schneider Apo Symmar and 120 Super Angulon. I wish I could compare more directly to the Nikkor. I do find that the resolution is present, and sharpens up with great ease in PS. I don't see any distortion, and only the occasional hint of CA.

    But my testing is cursory at this point.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Are the latest Nikon T/S lenses good when shifted? How about the Schneider PC lens for 35mm cameras?

    --Matt
    Here are some more specific observations on the Schneider, since there are some conflicting reports online, possibly due to sample variation (strange, since their LF lenses seem very consistent).

    Unshifted, corner to corner performance is best at f8. It's very sharp, and just has the look of an excellent lens in terms of color and contrast. Minimal distortion and CA.

    With moderate shift (5-8mm) best corner to corner sharpness is at f11. Center sharpness declines very, very slightly. Corners are significantly softer than the center, but do not show ugly aberrations like coma or astigmatism / smear. There's a lot of fine resolution recoverable through sharpening. Distortion and CA are still minimal.

    With maximum of shift (11mm, or 8mm with a vertical frame) The corners get very soft. This would mostly be acceptable if there were sky or a blank wall up there. Best at f16, unless you're willing to let the far corners go; then it's best at f11.

    My findings with CA are still inconclusive, because I haven't had played much in high contrast situtations. And the only FF camera I've been able to use is a borrowed d700.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonio Chagin View Post
    Dave Have you ever tried your Pentax 645 on any Nikon body?

    ACH
    Hi ACH,

    No, I haven't. I've been tempted, solely for the curiosity on how they would perform. Even when I shot with Pentax SLR's and DSLR's, I never mounted a Pentax 645 lens to them, even though pentax has an adapter specific for that purpose. Thanks.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Thanks Dave,

    I have a few 645 lenses that I would like to try. ACH

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    The real problem with digital medium format is the camera bodies.
    Primitive stuff compared to 35mm DSLR cameras.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire


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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    The real problem with digital medium format is the camera bodies.
    Primitive stuff compared to 35mm DSLR cameras.
    Are you thinking about the Leica S2 or the Pentax 645D?

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I would not say primitive, probably the wrong word.
    Maybe Fred means "less feature packed and sophisticated", especially when it comes to autofocus, automatic programs (bracketing comes to my mind), and things like personal settings and tweaks. lets not forget Video, Audio and hdmi and other direct Video outs. These alone are a huge advantage.
    Neither of the existing MF backs nor integrated solutions offers this whereas even consumergrade APS-C´s have all this.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    I would not say primitive, probably the wrong word.
    Maybe Fred means "less feature packed and sophisticated", especially when it comes to autofocus, automatic programs (bracketing comes to my mind), and things like personal settings and tweaks. lets not forget Video, Audio and hdmi and other direct Video outs. These alone are a huge advantage.
    Neither of the existing MF backs nor integrated solutions offers this whereas even consumergrade APS-C´s have all this.

    Regards
    Stefan
    I can honestly say I prefer the handling of the S2 body over that of my D700. (I also like the d700 but the S2 allmost feels intuitive)
    I feel many DSLR are "overloaded" with buttons and features.
    And nothing beats a big bright viewfinder.
    There are clear differences, advantages and disadvantages depending on what you plan to do with it.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    well as always a question of philosophy.
    you can look at a glass half empty or half full........

    Regards
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    The real problem with digital medium format is the camera bodies.
    Primitive stuff compared to 35mm DSLR cameras.
    Depends on intended use.

    Modular MFD bodies means various viewfinder options (Hasselblad V and H, Contax 645, Mamiya RB/RZ, Rollei/AFI etc.), removable backs to use on full front/back T/S Tech cameras, and most MFD backs offer more sophisticated tethering, and you can select up to 200 meg capture ... plus, no 35mm DSLR production camera offers full level sync speeds to 1/800th, 1/1000th or 1600th.

    MFD sprang from studio applications to widen its appeal beyond to add value and versatility, while 35mm DSLRs are making forays into the studio where 1/2 the toys are semi-useless, and you are manually precision focussing through a dim peep-hole instead of a big bright MF viewfinder.

    In the studio and on many commercial locations (where the money is), it is the 35mm DSLRs that are primitive IMHO.

    Personally, I'm not a tech hound and a 35mm DSLR bristling with buttons and movie modes or what-ever, just makes a good camera bigger and more expensive. A fast focusing high ISO machine that isn't struggling to be a MFD camera or a sudo-video camera is more to my liking. Then it is king of its applications where speed and agility are it's attributes.

    -Marc
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    I would not say primitive, probably the wrong word.
    Maybe Fred means "less feature packed and sophisticated", especially when it comes to autofocus, automatic programs (bracketing comes to my mind), and things like personal settings and tweaks. lets not forget Video, Audio and hdmi and other direct Video outs. These alone are a huge advantage.
    Neither of the existing MF backs nor integrated solutions offers this whereas even consumergrade APS-C´s have all this.

    Regards
    Stefan


    Stefan:

    The 645D has all that you mention, except video of course; its interface appears to have been adapted from the K 5.

    Tom
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Well one thing has become clear to me -- there is no Nikon lens available that can deliver across all desired characteristics to the D800 sensor. In this regard, we are blessed in MF land with some truly superior optics that do deliver extremely well across the spectrum, even to the full-frame 5u sensors. Of course we do pay for them...
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Well one thing has become clear to me -- there is no Nikon lens available that can deliver across all desired characteristics to the D800 sensor. In this regard, we are blessed in MF land with some truly superior optics that do deliver extremely well across the spectrum, even to the full-frame 5u sensors. Of course we do pay for them...
    I've suspected this, and it leaves me wondering why. I don't know if Schneider / Rodenstock are just better at what they do than Canon / Nikon / everyone else, or if the extreme retrofocus requirements (or size, or fine pixel pitch ...) of 35mm poses more difficult challenges than the challenges of coverage with bigger formats.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Tom

    I know, the Pentax 645 comes closest to this, whereas the autofocus is still not on par in speed with the newer 35mm bodies. probably a question of the larger lenses and focusing threads too.

    Pentax is definitely on the right way to make a medium format camera with a consumer ready approach, giving more comfort and modern features.
    What they need and probably all the others too is a cmos to catch up.

    That´s the neaked truth and this will stay until finally someone cracks this
    trap of hen and egg.

    And no - I really do not want to make a new "but CCD´s are so much better" discussion. Please - don´t........

    Stefan
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    At the risk of being contrary, I am the only one who isn't overwhelmed by the images in that thread? Many look flat and some of the crops are not very sharp. Maybe I have spent too much time on the MFDB forum looking at shots like those that Wayne recently posted of Monument Valley.

    Tom

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Tom,

    Simply stated, the MF backs mounted behind quality MF lenses are not even remotely in any jeopardy . I will even go so far as to say NONE of the Nikon glass i have seen is as good across all criteria as any one of the SK LS lenses are...
    Jack
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I am not sure it is even the glass. A larger chip with the same pixel count would be recording the same detail at a lower frequency--lines per mm. MTF usually improves at lower frequencies.

    The funny thing is, back in the days of silver, a 35mm camera would be a 35mm no matter how fine a grain film was inside it. The chip/format size adds qualities to an image. I think the best way to look at this is the D800 is a 35mm camera will a finer sensor, not a bigger one.

    Some folks will like the benefits to a smaller sensor. Some will not. Some won't care. But I don't think a 50 ft yacht is a 100 ft yacht just because it has the same number of berths.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Tom,

    Simply stated, the MF backs mounted behind quality MF lenses are not even remotely in any jeopardy . I will even go so far as to say NONE of the Nikon glass i have seen is as good across all criteria as any one of the SK LS lenses are...
    Well being doing some testing with the 80mm LS today on an Aptus II-8 for copy work, the corners and edges don't begin to sharpen up till f11 including with the software correction switched on in C1. Even then they're not particularly spectacular. Really not impressed.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I think we should not forget that the actual Nikon lenses that are on sale for the D800 now were never made for this amount of data.
    Same applies to many of the older MF lenses. You will definitely need either the best of the former (Zeiss V and also not all of them) or the newer specially constructed for 60 and up Mpix lenses to match the large sensors with their -btw nearly same size as on an IQ180 (so I think all this frequency and other talk is nonsense) - pixels.

    and lets also not forget that these lenses are a bout factor 2x or even 3-4x more expensive than the average Nikon 35mm lens today !
    You should also take into account that Nikon is a world class large and medium format lens maker (anyone remembers their T-ED large format lenses as well as many of the bronica stuff was done by them) which only happened to take a break as the market for volume simply was not there anymore.
    I predict Nikon will do exactly the same as Canon with their Cine Prime versions. They will watch how large demand will be, the users will cry for it and besides the volume that will be taken away by Zeiss Compact prime and wide angle offerings (I saw the 2,8/15mm........WOW !) they will sell these in the according price range and make the hell of a business out of it. And you can bet these lenses will AT LEAST fill 36Mpix with valuable data.

    Rockefeller actually did the same: give the chinese oil lamps for free and then sell the oil expensive. See the analogy ?

    regards
    Stefan
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    At the risk of being contrary, I am the only one who isn't overwhelmed by the images in that thread? Many look flat and some of the crops are not very sharp. Maybe I have spent too much time on the MFDB forum looking at shots like those that Wayne recently posted of Monument Valley.

    Tom
    It is not only you, and I find the same to be true if I go to the D800 thread at getdpi, and then go to the Fun with MF or to the S2 or to the M9-images thread.
    I cant say what is better or worse, but I know what I do like better.
    And this is just websize.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    I think we should not forget that the actual Nikon lenses that are on sale for the D800 now were never made for this amount of data.
    Same applies to many of the older MF lenses. You will definitely need either the best of the former (Zeiss V and also not all of them) or the newer specially constructed for 60 and up Mpix lenses to match the large sensors with their -btw nearly same size as on an IQ180 (so I think all this frequency and other talk is nonsense) - pixels.

    and lets also not forget that these lenses are a bout factor 2x or even 3-4x more expensive than the average Nikon 35mm lens today !
    You should also take into account that Nikon is a world class large and medium format lens maker (anyone remembers their T-ED large format lenses as well as many of the bronica stuff was done by them) which only happened to take a break as the market for volume simply was not there anymore.
    I predict Nikon will do exactly the same as Canon with their Cine Prime versions. They will watch how large demand will be, the users will cry for it and besides the volume that will be taken away by Zeiss Compact prime and wide angle offerings (I saw the 2,8/15mm........WOW !) they will sell these in the according price range and make the hell of a business out of it. And you can bet these lenses will AT LEAST fill 36Mpix with valuable data.

    Rockefeller actually did the same: give the chinese oil lamps for free and then sell the oil expensive. See the analogy ?

    regards
    Stefan
    Sorry, Stefan, I don't buy the argument. The D800 sensor is effectively 100 line per mm. Not a really high bar. I use film lenses on my 645D and the images show the lenses out resolve the sensor. And even if the lenses don't out resolve the sensor, whether the image is good is not a pixel pitch problem--dividing an image into more pixels does not make the image softer nor less detailed.

    I think the "film lenses do not perform on digital cameras" idea is a myth. Some lenses may not, but you are using a really broad brush to paint all optics.

  41. #341
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    It is not only you, and I find the same to be true if I go to the D800 thread at getdpi, and then go to the Fun with MF or to the S2 or to the M9-images thread.
    I cant say what is better or worse, but I know what I do like better.
    And this is just websize.
    There is very little sunlight in almost all of them so still hard to evaluate what it can do. You guys need to read my comments along the way.

    Stop looking at the pretty pictures. ROTFLMAO I'm joking of course
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    That Fred Miranda thread is interesting. The camera seems fully capable of the image quality expected from a high megapixel, relatively high dynamic range camera. However, there is an aesthetic to the images that I just don't like.

    Back in the film days, I always preferred medium or large format images to 35 mm because the tonal and focus transitions happen over a much larger area. While high MP DSLRs are capable of amazing detail, it is the tonal and focus transitions that feel abrupt to me. I don't know why, but I think there is something to be said for sensor area that cannot be replaced with pixel density.

    While Moore's Law hints that every few years we will get higher MP cameras for equal or lower cost, his law does not apply to the lenses that we need to realize that technology. Bottom line is that while the D800 seems to be an evolution of the D3x, quality costs.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_Green View Post
    That Fred Miranda thread is interesting. The camera seems fully capable of the image quality expected from a high megapixel, relatively high dynamic range camera. However, there is an aesthetic to the images that I just don't like.

    Back in the film days, I always preferred medium or large format images to 35 mm because the tonal and focus transitions happen over a much larger area. While high MP DSLRs are capable of amazing detail, it is the tonal and focus transitions that feel abrupt to me. I don't know why, but I think there is something to be said for sensor area that cannot be replaced with pixel density.

    While Moore's Law hints that every few years we will get higher MP cameras for equal or lower cost, his law does not apply to the lenses that we need to realize that technology. Bottom line is that while the D800 seems to be an evolution of the D3x, quality costs.
    Thanks for putting into words what I've been thinking Bill

    -Marc

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_Green View Post
    While Moore's Law hints that every few years we will get higher MP cameras for equal or lower cost...
    The trouble is we can't reengineer light which seems to have a wavelength between 400nm and 700nm...

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Yes, but look at the price difference of this evolution. There's the value!

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Have to say as far as usability it just about blows all MF,Pentax and S2 out the door with there foot up there ***. I'm not selling either of them. I got the best of both worlds. Like i said 50 times already it will compliment my MF gear. Not sure why this thread even exists to be honest MF is not Nikon and Nikon will never be MF. Use them both in good health.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Not sure why this thread even exists to be honest
    Well, I think a couple of claims can easily get confused. One is that this camera does things that once required MF digital. Which I think is true.

    This does not imply the other claim, which is that the camera replaces MF digital, or is as good as the best or even the 10th best MF digital cameras.

    Unfortunately people like to conflate those two ideas.

    I used to think I’d need MF digital for the project I’m working on now—this was unfortunate because I’m a long way from being able to afford such a system. But the d800 pushes 35mm comfortably into the quality range that I’d like to have.

    I’m grateful for this forum and for thread like this, because I’m not aware of any other source for rigorous comparisons of this camera and the high end options. This is the best way I know to see the strengths and limitations of the camera in perspective.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Shashin

    there is much more than only shere resolution making up a modern lens - to get an overview on this there is a perfect resource about the actual status of lens design for the digital age - an Interview with Dr. Hubert Nasse Senior scientist at Carl Zeiss - probably THE knowledge capacity on this subject.
    to be read on Diglloyd.com

    diglloyd - 15mm f/2.8 Distagon Zeiss Interview - Zeiss 15/2.8 Distagon Q&A ? Question List

    there is breathing , uniformity, focus shift, low ray angle and much more.
    This is only possible now because of intense usage of aspherics and most advanced production technologies.

    regards
    Stefan
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Have to say as far as usability it just about blows all MF,Pentax and S2 out the door with there foot up there ***. I'm not selling either of them. I got the best of both worlds. Like i said 50 times already it will compliment my MF gear. Not sure why this thread even exists to be honest MF is not Nikon and Nikon will never be MF. Use them both in good health.
    Yes, they complement very well...one fills the bookshelve and the other one gets used all the time just kidding. I will further follow that D800 thread and also the 5dIII reports.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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