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More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

tashley

Subscriber Member
Re: More file for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

Rival in what way? I shot MFD and it has replaced my medium-format film cameras. I don't really see it as an equivalent or replacement to large format--I don't shoot large format anymore, so I am not trying to hang on or whatever reasons people have to stick to processes. There are qualities in processes/formats that are imparted to images that are not merely a result of resolution.
I chose the word 'rival' advisedly: there are a lot of parameters that could be used to make judgements between them and the relative importance of those parameters will vary between photographers. For prints at 180DPI, (which a good giclee printer well driven can make look quite good) the D800e will make a 40 incher and the IQ180 a 58 incher. It has been established (though there is certainly room for argument) that the D7000 sensor (and therefore quite probably the D800 sensor) has marginally better DR than the IQ180. It has notably less good colour depth. It has notably better ISO performance. And so on.

So for prints up to 40" (versus , say a 24mp camera that would go to, say 33") many photographers might rationally choose to use the D800e instead of the IQ180, as long as ISO performance and DR were, for that shot, more important than colour depth. Then again they might only want to print to 300dpi... horses for photographers.

And so on.

I have (or rather, soon will have) both dogs in this fight and have no agenda other than to find and use the tools that do, for me, each job as best it can be done. One of the dogs hasn't fought in public yet. So I'm in the "don't know yet but never say never camp"... the glass will be the problem: but it is a problem with the 180 too. My Mammy 28 is barely up to the task, my SK35XL is the same (for different reasons)... though clearly there is a certain amount of choice of glass that can handle the challenge.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Re: More file for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

I have (or rather, soon will have) both dogs in this fight and have no agenda other than to find and use the tools that do, for me, each job as best it can be done. One of the dogs hasn't fought in public yet. So I'm in the "don't know yet but never say never camp"...
Fascinating watching the responses - of course, there won't be a 'final answer', for, as Tim says, everyone has different criteria for success.

I'm not convinced that the newer lenses won't do the job. I also owned a D700, and certainly didn't feel it oversampled the better glass. I don't feel that the A900 does either, Even the A77 with it's extra pixel density seems to do well with good glass (of course, I haven't tried it with Nikon glass). By which I mean that I don't think that the response of more pixels to lenses is easy to predict.

Looking at results from the NEX7 with, for instance, a leica 50 'lux, or a 180 Apo R it's hard not to believe in the combination - and that's a denser sensor than the D800.

I think it's a fascinating camera, and I can hardly wait to see the comparisons develop.

all the best
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Sorry, I was underwhelmed by the IQ of every picture posted on the site.

It isn't just the lenses ... the lens list posted are some of Nikon's finest ... and he even used a tripod with flash.

There is consistently something "off" about them. A tonal flatness or lack of life-like feel compared to what you get from most MFD cameras ... and frankly even from some 35mm DSLRs in the 16 to 24 meg flavors. Frankly, M9 files look better.

IQ isn't just about the file size, it's the over-all look and feel you get from a camera of any meg size. All that the additional resolution does is allow larger sizes of the same look and feel. Price doesn't matter if you do not like the output.

For example, look at the model's eyes in the wild cat shot ... the skin tones in the shot of the girl in gold ... the jewlery itself in the "Jewelry" shot.

This is what everyone wanted to wait and see ... someone that knows what they are doing, using good lenses (mostly), and who has used the camera for some time.

Oh well, IMO, yet another neither fish nor fowl camera. Not quite the performance of a 1DX nor a IQ of a MFD.

Good marketing hype however ... Nikon will sell a boatload of them I'm sure.

-Marc
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I've owned a D700 and thought that it ovesampled most of the available glass.
My D3x did exactly the same. The worthy lenses were few and far between. Also the look of those images was definitely different to what I've got from any of my mfdb gear be they the IQ, April's or p25+.

Now convenience and overall dslr competency definitely favor the high mp 35mm dslrs. That's where phase, hassy should be worried imho. Any of my nikons trounced my Mamiya/Phase bodies & AF on their best day.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Re: More file for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

And if someone thinks a 35mm chip will make an image just like a 4x5 view camera, then they should buy it. I notice a lot of these comments are folks coming from 35mm, not from other larger formats.
Actually, I shoot larger formats and just ordered a D800e. No one is saying that a 35mm chip will produce a 4x5 image, just a MFD size...hee, hee!:) (please note smiley face to defuse the negativity from the obvious intent as a pun) Also, the Nikon 24mm f1.4 G ED is probably the best 24mm lens to fully appreciate the benefits of 36MP. What is the point of critiquing web size images?
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Now convenience and overall dslr competency definitely favor the high mp 35mm dslrs. That's where phase, hassy should be worried imho. Any of my nikons trounced my Mamiya/Phase bodies & AF on their best day.
Why I bought a Pentax 645D. :poke:

:toocool:
 

markymarkrb

New member
I think MF has the upper hand in this battle because DSLRs have to keep their sensor size within the 35mm frame size. Once they go outside of that, they are playing with the big boys in medium format. Lots of people have said that the best glass in the world right now can't out resolve 5.0 microns so I don't know what the math would be but this puts a limit on the DSLR crew. Eventually, something for them will have to give. Long live MF! No comparison.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Sorry, I was underwhelmed by the IQ of every picture posted on the site.

It isn't just the lenses ... the lens list posted are some of Nikon's finest ... and he even used a tripod with flash.

There is consistently something "off" about them. A tonal flatness or lack of life-like feel compared to what you get from most MFD cameras ... and frankly even from some 35mm DSLRs in the 16 to 24 meg flavors. Frankly, M9 files look better.

IQ isn't just about the file size, it's the over-all look and feel you get from a camera of any meg size. All that the additional resolution does is allow larger sizes of the same look and feel. Price doesn't matter if you do not like the output.

For example, look at the model's eyes in the wild cat shot ... the skin tones in the shot of the girl in gold ... the jewlery itself in the "Jewelry" shot.

This is what everyone wanted to wait and see ... someone that knows what they are doing, using good lenses (mostly), and who has used the camera for some time.

Oh well, IMO, yet another neither fish nor fowl camera. Not quite the performance of a 1DX nor a IQ of a MFD.

Good marketing hype however ... Nikon will sell a boatload of them I'm sure.

-Marc
Marc's observations mirror my own and his description of the overall look of the files is exactly how I would describe them...sort of flat and lifeless. I don't even think it was the selection of lenses they used either. Although I was not overly inspired by the D800/D800e images posted so far, I will keep an open mind when many competent photographers put these latest offerings from Nikon though their paces. For whatever reason, there appeared to be more depth and life to images coming from cameras like the D700 and D3/D3s. I've even seen many impressive images from the D3x, so "increased" resolution alone as we all know, does not make an image.

Dave (D&A)
 
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Wayne Fox

Workshop Member
I'm not that impressed with any of the images so far -- like Doug, I believe the system is pretty severely handicapped right out of the gate by limitations in worthy available glass. Will the D800 be a great camera? Yes! Will I buy one? Maybe. Will it replace my MF kit? Uh, no.
Chatted with a close friend in canon management last week, and of course questioned him about what was coming. We have canon shooters talking about switching unless they hear something from Canon soon. He was biting his tongue really hard to keep from slipping, and finally he said everyone is going to be really surprised and amazed. (We'll see, I've heard that before).

What he did confirm is the aggressive update to many key Canon lenses has been driven by trying to have decent glass available for higher rez sensors. so while Nikon for the first time beat canon with a major resolution upgrade, Canon may actually offer the better choice because they have glass that might hold up. Then again they may do something stupid and introduce something like the J/V1, not even mention what they have coming to go up against the new Nikon.

I won't be buying either, I've settled on a NEX7 as my backup kit ... quite a terrific little setup. As soon as I get one I can keep (customers come first) I can decide whether to keep the Leica glass for it, or sell the Leica stuff and pick up a couple of nice Zeiss primes.

I guess if I was shooting a p25, I might have to look at the d800, but my IQ180 is quite safe.
 

Wayne Fox

Workshop Member
Lots of people have said that the best glass in the world right now can't out resolve 5.0 microns so I don't know what the math would be but this puts a limit on the DSLR crew. Eventually, something for them will have to give. Long live MF! No comparison.
While I agree with your last statement, regarding the 5 micron sensel size limitationCtein at TOP some interesting thoughts, he's a pretty smart guy (physicist by profession).

Wonder how those camera phones do so well .. my 8mp iPhone is pretty decent, and that's gotta be down to less than a couple of microns.
 

FredBGG

Not Available
It's rather funny how an increase from 24.5 MP to 36 MP has kicked up such a storm of proclamations. There really isn't much difference at all between 24.5 and 36 MP.

I also find it rather funny what Nikon claims MF quality with this camera.

There is a lot more to different formats than the amount of pixels.

How ever many pixels you pack into 24x36mm you can't get around diffraction.

Apart from that I don't find anything particularly special about the sample images put out by Nikon for the D800. Shadows don't look anywhere near what can be achieved with MF backs. Color depth isn't there either.

personally I find that the Canon 1D X samples show better quality, as do the samples and the results I've seen with the previous top of the line Nikon cameras.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Sorry, I was underwhelmed by the IQ of every picture posted on the site.

It isn't just the lenses ... the lens list posted are some of Nikon's finest ... and he even used a tripod with flash.

There is consistently something "off" about them. A tonal flatness or lack of life-like feel compared to what you get from most MFD cameras ... and frankly even from some 35mm DSLRs in the 16 to 24 meg flavors. Frankly, M9 files look better.

IQ isn't just about the file size, it's the over-all look and feel you get from a camera of any meg size. All that the additional resolution does is allow larger sizes of the same look and feel. Price doesn't matter if you do not like the output.

For example, look at the model's eyes in the wild cat shot ... the skin tones in the shot of the girl in gold ... the jewlery itself in the "Jewelry" shot.

This is what everyone wanted to wait and see ... someone that knows what they are doing, using good lenses (mostly), and who has used the camera for some time.

Oh well, IMO, yet another neither fish nor fowl camera. Not quite the performance of a 1DX nor a IQ of a MFD.

Good marketing hype however ... Nikon will sell a boatload of them I'm sure.

-Marc
Well Marc,

one can always be as negative and unimpressed as you are her ;)

Not sure what you are trying to defend? The S System purchase? Or the Hasselblad?

For me this is no competition, but rather that we reached a point in time where we can see decent IQ and high resolution from DSLR which was so far only MFD land - nothing else!
 

BANKER1

Member
Well Marc,

one can always be as negative and unimpressed as you are her ;)

Not sure what you are trying to defend? The S System purchase? Or the Hasselblad?

For me this is no competition, but rather that we reached a point in time where we can see decent IQ and high resolution from DSLR which was so far only MFD land - nothing else!
Since when is an honest opinion "negative and unimpressed"? Marc doesn't have to defend any system, because he has used them all. His comments are well thought out and salient. I respect his opinions.

Greg
 
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