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Nikon MX ?

robmac

Well-known member
Just posted in R Forum re: nikonrumours showing possible Nikon internal designer sketch of Nikon 'tweener body. Claim is reliable source. Other Nikon bodies and D3 prototype drawing shown for scale - is stylized drawing, but sucker has a BIG prism, mount and sensor....

The WPPI (sic?) show this fall where adverts are suggesting something BIG from Nikon could be very, very interesting.
 

EH21

Member
If Nikon had come out with the D3X at photokina I might have higher hopes that 'something big' was the rumored MF 48x48 square mamiya 7 style camera.

But the picture seems to have a rectangular sensor and looks more like the D3?
 

robmac

Well-known member
Again, could be BS, but timing is right for leaks to start.
Pictured sensor is rectangular and NR seems to indicate that new larger sensor would be something like 33x48 vs 48x48 sensor that seems to be the center of the MX rumors. May be unrelated to MX. The 'something big' adverts for WPPI (IIRC) would indicate SOMETHING is coming. I would think an S2-style unit would make more sense for more folks than a digital Mamiya 7II - most modern photogs have probably never even used a RF - greater probability of deeper market penetration with DSLR-style 'tweener me thinks.
 

Uaiomex

Member
Follows a copy/paste from "Hasselblad at Photokina" thread in LL forum. I give this rumor 98% chance now.
Eduardo

"I am not under any NDA with Nikon at this time, but the coming of the MX format from Nikon is not much of a secret within the industry.
Michael"
 

EH21

Member
I would be all over a 48x48 sensor camera if the price were right..... especially if it can do the high ISO like the D3 can.
 

Lars

Active member
Interesting market segmentation, first Leica and then maybe Nikon inserting their products between 35mm and MF formats. I must say I have expected Canon to take this route several years ago.
 

LJL

New member
O.K., I will take the bait on this one.... While this is interesting rumor, there are still some things that need to happen to make this sort of offering a "player", I think. Let's say Nikon is able to build a new MF-ish or full-blown MF body, depending on the size of the sensor, what happens beyond that? They would also need either a new line of glass to go with it, as nothing in their F mount would most likely ever work, or allow others to fit to it. And there-in lies a bit of a problem. Nikon (and Canon for that matter), would really need to step up their game to produce a line of glass that most folks looking to MF, higher resolution, etc., could be satisfied with. They have not shown much ability to produce that kind of glass for their present flagship camera line in the 35mm world. Sure, there may be a lens or two, but no consistency anywhere, except maybe on the really long glass, and that is not as hard to build as complicated short throw retrofocus stuff. Not trying to bash something that is only a rumor now, but just wondering how it would be received into a market that worries about lens quality with almost too much passion.

Let's say that folks looking toward this kind of solution were a bit (?lot) less picky, and were buying on price alone, and maybe a few other features mentioned, such as really high ISO or something. How many folks would really give up something like their D3/D700 or maybe a new D3x with higher resolution to add this MX line? Or would this be used in addition to their present FX line?

While the idea does sound interesting, and competition is good to see, there have to be a whole lot more pieces put into place besides a rumored sensor with no specs at this point. At least Leica, with its S2 system stepped out the right way, leading with their reputation for superb glass, and hoping to sway folks beyond specific sensor sizes in favor of a very functional and thought out system. I would venture that something like that would be required from Nikon also, unless they plan to start competing with the back makers for the MF market, and they do not even fab their own sensors.

Again, not trying to dampen enthusiasm....just trying to understand how folks see this sort of scenario developing, and then asking seriously if folks would head this route?

LJ
 

robmac

Well-known member
If true, I suspect it is the beastie, in a large part, behind recent Hassy moves 'to DSLR' the MFDB market.

No issues with the argument re:glass. One could only hope that the new WA G zooms are indicative of what they would plan for their 'tweener. Launching a new glass line - no big a deal, actually less so, for Nikon vs. say Leica. Nikon has the economies of scale. There is also the chance (who knows) that they have an arrangement with another glass player.

This would be in addition to FX. FF is becoming the new APS-C as sensor costs drop, MP counts on same approach MFDB territory and high-ISO ceilings on 24x36 start looking harder and harder.

The MX tactic also gives them the ability to go at Canon from the top-down (until Canon enters anyway) -- snipe higher-end (1DS3esque) users who need/want the MP count on a large sensor and are starting to wonder what they're getting for their $8000 in a (now) 5DII world. With MX, they can do more than go after the 5DII in some stupid price war and have 'more' than the upcoming D3x to go after the 1Ds3 user with. Pick some cream off the top of the Canon installed base for as long as possible. get them switched and invested before Canon gets it's act together.

If anyone is going to give the 'tweener/MFDB markets a hard injection of ice water in their pricing norms, it will be Nikon (or Canon). Their is not the same cache around the name Nikon as there is around Leica, Hasselblad, Mamiya, Sinar, etc and they will have a hard time pricing the gear at the same prices as the S2, lower-MP count Hassy units, etc. Some tough times and consolidation is probably inevitable among the existing MFDB players. I suspect the MX (and whatever Canon eventually releases) will be the Lexus & Infinity (vs. the Ferrari/Bentley/Lambo/Jaguar) of the luxo auto market.

It's actually interesting how Nikon and Leica approach the market re: their respective strengths and weaknesses (greatly simplified):

Leica
-------
(Pros): Lens reputation, no AA filter CCD (was with great advantage w/R10, but now all MFDBs are sans AA filter, so...).

(Con): Economies of scale (almost bespoke shop), S&S structure/speed, price, distribution network size/presence, electronics in prior models, miniscule installed base of customers (vs. Cankon). Teething issues handling with M8, presence in rental shops.

Nikon
-------
(Pros) - Economies of scale, distribution network presence, S&S structure, electronics, massive installed base of target customers, new market traction with D3 and D700, presence in rental shops.

(Cons) - Lens quality (but improving with new WA Zooms), AA filters will be a no go - must walk, talk and chew gum like comparable MFDBs.

A marriage made in heaven...
 
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Lars

Active member
LJL - one rumor is that Nikon is prepping between five to ten lenses for a launch in March. As you point out, anything less would be foolish. And of course they would have to be good too. But I think Nikon has shown with its last few pro zooms that given a large enough budget they are able to deliver competitive glass by any standard.

Now, if I was a camera manufacturer with, say, a 50 year old lens mount, surely I would think about upgrading that mount. And if I would drop backwards compatibility, why not consider a larger diameter and larger sensor for the high end SLR segment?

With such a reason, a larger Nikon mount becomes not so much a competition for MF DB makers as a way to get a hold of the high end SLR market over Canon. Since Leica will likely follow its time-honored tradition of pricing itself out of the market, the playing field will be wide open for a high-end system priced moderately.
 

Lars

Active member
I have serious doubts about a square sensor though - the mirror housing would have to be huge. I think Leica S2 has pointed the way with its 3:2 sensor.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
They better start thinking CCD and no AA filters . i will NOT buy a screen door over my sensor.Period. LOL
 

Uaiomex

Member
Many of us have. If we see a $2.7k usd camera with the same 21mp sensor of the flagship $8k camera, it means something else is going to happen. There is a lot of speculation that Canon will finally merge their 2 Series1 cameras. So, this is the right time for Canon to come with their "tweener" and feed the 8K plus market, which is already built. Detroit golden years used to do it all the time. Introduce a new car category with a new name. Every year load it with even more standard equipment, make it a little bigger and charge more.
Eduardo

Interesting market segmentation, first Leica and then maybe Nikon inserting their products between 35mm and MF formats. I must say I have expected Canon to take this route several years ago.
 

Uaiomex

Member
The square sensor doesn't make sense... but if you think no mirror, rangefinder for quick composing, use live view for critical focusing and composition, then it makes a lot of sense. It could get even better.
A 36X36mm sensor could be implemented to be used with existing glass. You could shoot horizontal to vertical by just switching a thumb rocker button. You could even change orientation during raw conversion later on. And of course a new line of bigger lenses to cover 36X36mm.
God, I should patent this!
Eduardo

I have serious doubts about a square sensor though - the mirror housing would have to be huge. I think Leica S2 has pointed the way with its 3:2 sensor.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Too many people are used to a 3:2. Changing the format, at least for the first go-round to a square would make it too odd ball for too many folks (as much as I've taken like cropping square). You could always have 36x48 with a 36x36 crop mode as well.
 

Jeff Turner

Member
One thing already mentioned in other forums pre-Photokina but not brought up in this thread is that Nikon also has 3 new lens formulas that could easily be implemented for a larger sensor, even 48x48mm. These are the new T/S lenses that are really quite good and measure up with the recent WA zooms. Simply repackage them in a fixed barrel (ie: no T/S) and there you have 24mm, 45mm and 85mm. My experience with these lenses has been very good and I am looking forward to trying them on a higher rez camera than the D3.

I also shoot medium format film and have been waiting in the wings for all the new developments in MFDBs which I plan on buying within the next year. I agree with Guy regarding the CCD technology and absolutely no AA filter. As good as the D3 files are, I really hate the mush that I see with them, and I think that really helps kill some of the 3D effects that I love in larger formats.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Jeff that is pretty interesting about the TC lens formula's and yes they would have a bigger image circle, no question. They need to get with Dalsa or Kodak and get anyone of the chips already being made and build a body around it just like leica is doing. They certainly have the purse to make this a reality
 

LJL

New member
LJL - one rumor is that Nikon is prepping between five to ten lenses for a launch in March. As you point out, anything less would be foolish. And of course they would have to be good too. But I think Nikon has shown with its last few pro zooms that given a large enough budget they are able to deliver competitive glass by any standard.

Now, if I was a camera manufacturer with, say, a 50 year old lens mount, surely I would think about upgrading that mount. And if I would drop backwards compatibility, why not consider a larger diameter and larger sensor for the high end SLR segment?

With such a reason, a larger Nikon mount becomes not so much a competition for MF DB makers as a way to get a hold of the high end SLR market over Canon. Since Leica will likely follow its time-honored tradition of pricing itself out of the market, the playing field will be wide open for a high-end system priced moderately.
Lars,
This could be the more interesting part. Is that brace of 10 lenses for something like this MX concept, or just rebuilds/new builds for the DSLRs. It would seem that like Leica, if they are going to field this sort of MF camera, they will have to have a new line of glass. While production may be more in Nikon's camp for scale, they still need something of high enough quality, and that will not be as easy, nor as cheap as folks are used to paying for Nikon glass now. (Just my feeling on that.)

The idea of a larger mount is a must for this MX sensor, I would think as the present F mount just does not seem able to cut it for the needed image circle. (This was the road that Canon went down when they created the EOS line and dropped the FD lens mount. That was not without a lot of yelling and screaming from folks. However, that was introduced for a new EOS body that was still a 35mm SLR. This MX thing for Nikon would have to come to market as its own line, I would think. If Nikon was going to change the lens mount and try to serve both 35mm and MF, it would be very interesting for sure as a next gen gamble like we have not seen.)

I may still be reeling from all the recent doom and gloom talk about economic markets, global futures, and all that stuff, but trying to create a new high end DSLR line right now seems like more than a gamble. If folks are already cringing at present prices, and those have been dropping, what kinds of features would a new say $6-10K body have to have, and what would those glass costs look like alongside? Both Nikon and Canon could probably do this with their deep enough pockets. The question is would they and what kind of return could they anticipate. Remember, the MF market segment is not all that big in comparison, so they would essentially be bringing something to market with the hope to significantly grow that entire market segment, as just stealing pieces from other players would never be enough.

Interesting things to think about for sure. Having shot high end Nikon and Canon for almost all of my career, they build good 35mm stuff, but I think my expectations for MF might be higher, especially if the costs are for sure going to be higher.

LJ
 

LJL

New member
Too many people are used to a 3:2. Changing the format, at least for the first go-round to a square would make it too odd ball for too many folks (as much as I've taken like cropping square). You could always have 36x48 with a 36x36 crop mode as well.
Rob,
I agree that this seems to be sort of a locked in thing, this 3:2 format for 35mm. Honestly, most folks wind up tossing a lot to get to formats for print in many cases. This could become a really new and creative approach....go with something more 5:4, as that is a lot closer for most printing needs. I actually started to think about Nikon possibly introducing something like a wedding photographer's dream camera for the MX concept. (That is purely a wild construct in my mind, and not something rumored that I know of, so nobody "run" with that, O.K.?) In this wedding photo fantasy world (and I am no longer doing that, so it may be moot for me and others, but interesting anyway), the camera would have speed (2-4 fps), good ISO range for studio through churches and such (100-1600 absolutely pristine clean, then bumping to 3200 for more "gritty" work), the 5:4 format geared for nearly straight to print sizing, lenses ranging from 35mm equivalent angles of 21-200 in fast glass, leaf and focal plane capable of course, etc., etc.

I know that sounds like too specific a camera, but it really could be pitched as a niche thing for distinction, while still working well for most other needs too. Sorry to have gone "marketing" on a rumor, but it is that strategic thinker/planner that I sometimes cannot shake :D

So, while 3:2 is the "norm", this could be an opportunity to lay something else out to separate it from everybody else. Just some thoughts.

LJ
 

robmac

Well-known member
LJ - sounds like a great concept. With larger digital sensors, there is a lot a camera could offer by effectively masking the sensor into different crop modes - assuming you had the MPs to spare.
 
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