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Thread: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    if so, then here is the smallest MF camera of all times:

    Nokia Europe - Nokia 808 PureView with 41 MP camera
    Camera41 megapixel camera sensor with Nokia Pureview Pro imaging technology and Carl Zeiss opticsFullscreen 16:9 viewfinder with easy on-screen touch controlsXenon flash with operating range up to 3.5 m depending on conditions. Automatic fill-flashLED for video recordingFocal length: 8.02 mm (35 mm equivalent focal length -26 mm, 16:9 / 28 mm, 4:3)Auto focus and touch to focusFocus modes: Hyperfocal, Macro, Infinity and AutoFocus range: 15 cm ~ infinityMacro focus 15-50 cmF number/aperture: F2.4Supported aspect ratios and resolutions True 16:9 (2 MP, 5 MP [Default], 8 MP, 41 MP) 4:3 (3 MP, 5 MP, 8 MP, 41 MP)Three shooting modes: Auto, Scenes, CreativeFace detection softwareLaunch camera from lock with full press of capture key

    More here: Nokia 808 Pure View Phone Has a 41-Megapixel Camera. FORTY-ONE ACTUAL MEGAPIXELS.


    and most shocking: 450 €/600 $ starting in May...........


    ???????


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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    What I read was that Nokia was having a very difficult time with a zoom lens in a phone camera. Lens was too slow forcing ISO too high. So, they tackled the problem by throwing pixels at it and using digital zoom and also pixel binning.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    It looks like the standard resolution is 5MPix with pixel binning, but you can shoot a 41 Mpix as well. I think they are doing some very smart things here.

    regards
    Stefan
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    This is FUN!

    Just a few days we were joking about iPhone with 60MP or so, here we are almost there!

    So will this be the new MFD-back form factor? maybe the big guys could offer an adapter for those types of high resolution smart phones

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Peter

    I just wonder where to put the iPhone holder on this thing.......

    Stefan
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Peter

    I just wonder where to put the iPhone holder on this thing.......

    Stefan
    I am sure someone will come up with that

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    no, it is a new phone camera.
    The escalator just keeps going up but it is not all about the number of pixels, it is also about the quality of those pixels.
    -bob

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Hi Bob

    This is what makes it interesting- the pixel must be tiny, but these samples look very organic and they even have depth of field, which I find most astonishing !

    Nokia Europe - Nokia 808 PureView with 41 MP camera

    Of course they don´t say in which mode they were shot....

    regards
    Stefan
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    jeez, it ought to look organic, it is the top of somebody's head LOL
    actually I am convinced that as tech marches on it presents only more and more opportunity at the high end.

    I once was told by a youngger co-worker that the mainframe was dead. At that time I think my answer was, well, it might be as we know it, but there would always be a market for the "biggest and baddest" that could be produced.
    I think that is pretty true.
    I am happy that folks are beginning to see what the possibilities might be on the biggest and baddest side of the spectrum.
    -bob

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    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    I notice we don't yet have a thread: "Will you sell your MFD gear if the Nokia 808 Purview holds good on its promise?"...
    Quentin Bargate
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I notice we don't yet have a thread: "Will you sell your MFD gear if the Nokia 808 Purview holds good on its promise?"...
    I'm on it....

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    I like the idea of having 41mp that I can have automatically pixel bin down to something usable. That seems like a viable use for the resolution if it means clean, sharp images with good colour. Having just the resolution for resolution's sake, especially in a wobbly phone cam seems kind of pointless IMHO, especially with a plastic pebble in front of the sensor.

    Oh, and no it doesn't count as medium format digital
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    no, it is a new phone camera.
    The escalator just keeps going up but it is not all about the number of pixels, it is also about the quality of those pixels.
    -bob
    Hey Bob, I think nobody really doubts that - especially in this thread.

    Just interesting that we had joked about iPhone with 60MP - and here we are already approaching

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    has anyone done an extrapolation on how many MP this pixel size would mean on a 645 MFD back?

    1 million MP
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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    We should not forget that there is another area this "Thing" beats an IQ180 hands down:

    Gaming !

    "Use the touch interface to play games, Dedicated graphics processor with OpenGL 2.0 enables 3D graphics, Native and Java games, Use the accelerometer to play games, NFC for multiplayer games, Preloaded games, More games available for download at Store "

    I want java games on the IQ´s ! "Hasselblad shooter" or "destroy the Canon´s" or more educational things like "national park landscape memory" or "whats the right focus "...........regards
    Stefan
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Hi guys,

    all joking aside, you should take a look at some samples which can be downloaded here directly:

    http://cdn.conversations.nokia.com.s...2/Archive2.zip

    Actually, not that bad!

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    That´s right Paul !
    At least by far the best Phone images I have seen so far.
    The tonality looks a bit strange , but you never know who fiddled around with these and with which software. Also strange all 3 files have differing sizes whereas the 2 larger ones are actually smaller in dimension than the smaller (landscape) image ? Exif also shows some funny stuff - 58 ASA ?

    But of course this is all still betastuff.

    regards
    Stefan
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Those samples look really good.

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    i'm especially impressed by the first image. I think you could easily print it at 40 inches wide. Considering the fact that this is a cellphone after all, this is mighty impressive ...

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    Senior Member MaxKißler's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    They probably used the D800 for the shots, interpolated the files and changed the exif data...

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Can hardly wait to see how long a full rez shot takes to upload to facebook on 3G (or even 4G) LOL
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    The way I understand it, you can't get the 40mp output. You get 5mp after the binning. I don't think the binning is optional. If you want to zoom the camera will crop in and bin less pixels together to get the 5mp. This is built on a much larger sensor than a regular cell phone 1/1.2" (bigger than compact cameras. Here is a another quick writeup of the tech

    41MP Nokia smartphone hints at the future of small sensor cameras: Digital Photography Review

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Terry - the samples posted on the Nokia site have about 38Mpix/109 Mbytes open
    also the specs on the Nokia site clearly state the large files are available - see my first post.

    The dpreview article is interesting as it shows another possible idea about how to handle future needs for imaging with least effort for best results:

    Using a prime lens for an oversampled image to electronically zoom in as the chips are now falling in price and silicon is cheaper than optics !

    Very cool idea ! Goodbye expensive Zooms with 15 lenses ! Do it electronically. This is the kind of technology that I think will win !

    regards
    Stefan

    PS.: one nice sample image on that page:

    http://4.s.img-dpreview.com/files/ne...iew.jpg?v=1354
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Another nail in the P&S camera coffin. Nice samples.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    After reading it in Detail this gets even more exciting:
    the sensor actually has 41 Mpix, but the camera will only shoot 34mpix(means 16:9) or 38 Mpix (means 4:3), the 41Mpix are not available as one file !What they use/call as 41 Mpixis is always cropped.

    the technical whitepaper
    http://europe.nokia.com/PRODUCT_META...Whitepaper.pdf
    has a lot of exciting new infos too:

    "Nokia PureView Pro turns conventional thinking on its head. It dispenses with the usual scaling/ interpolation model of digital zoom used in virtually all smartphones, as well as optical zoom used in most digital cameras, where a series of lens elements moves back and forth to vary the magnification and field of view. Instead, we’ve taken a completely new road."..........

    "Faster shutter speeds.
    With the Nokia 808 PureView, you get effective maximum aperture throughout the zoom range. Whereas with optical zoom, less light tends to reach the sensor as the zoom increases. At maximum zoom, 5.4x more light reaches the Nokia PureView Pro sensor than a broadly equivalent optical-zoom digital camera (f/5.6 as opposed to f/2.4). And this means you get the benefit of faster shutter speeds.
    e.g. If a conventional digital camera set to ISO 100 uses a shutter speed of 1/30th second, the Nokia 808 PureView uses 1/180th second in the same lighting conditions. Or, looking at it another way, if a digital camera uses ISO 600 for a shutter speed of 1/30th, the Nokia 808 PureView could maintain the same shutter speed with ISO 100 — significantly reducing the visual noise you’d see in the resulting image. This also means that the Nokia 808 PureView’s effective flash range is virtually maintained at all zoom levels, rather than being significantly reduced as the zoom increases."

    Nokia is back - I hope these guys will sell a ton of these, this is real Chuzpe, finally one of the big players who seems to have understood.
    Maybe they needed to have these bad problems and the competition to make this phone.....

    regards
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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Personally I think this is a better approach to solving the zoom problem on camera phones.
    Ctein had an interesting article on this..

    Not sure the camera is enough to save Nokia. Especially if it only runs on Symbian. Most people value other features more than the camera. Current cameras are pretty good and are good enough for most.
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Wayne you are right, the camera alone is not the whole package. But it looks really good even if you buy this as a camera alone - here is a video about the usage that is pretty interesting:

    Nokia 808 PureView Hands-On Video - YouTube!

    And even if this Phone fails, the concept will go into other cameras, I´m nearly 100 % sure.

    Regards
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    I just downloaded the big res samples and looked at them in LR at 50% (i.e. about the same res as a moderately good print) and... blimey! I mean, blimey.

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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    So who's sensor? Someone has to be making this for them. I agree if this shows up in a lot of phones point and shoots will be gone. But I don't think many will buy this to replace just their point and shoot because that category is on its way out already. Some maybe. But they need this in a different platform.
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Finally, a mirrorless backup for my 645D...

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    What is really interesting is if this technology can be implemented in larger sensors. The m4/3 system, where high quality fast lenses are already available, would suddenly be able to climb another few steps up the ladder. I wonder who owns the patents for this.

    Although this phone alone might not bring Nokia back to its former position, I know quite a lot of young people who will buy it simply because having the latest, hottest is cool. And this one ends all discussions about megapixel numbers rather quickly.

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    Personally I think this is a better approach to solving the zoom problem on camera phones.
    Ctein had an interesting article on this..

    Not sure the camera is enough to save Nokia. Especially if it only runs on Symbian. Most people value other features more than the camera. Current cameras are pretty good and are good enough for most.
    My guess is that Nokia used Symbian on this device because Symbian at this time has better software for photo apps (than Windows Phone).
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Awesome stuff! I might actually get one of these!

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    I just retired.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    I have not owned a phone that comes with an FM radio. That alone is something. Then there is a hidef web browser, full HD video and even a phone!

    This stuff is just over the top.

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    Member Agnius's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    It is a lot of pixels, but by definition "medium" is defined by physical size, not the amount of pixels. So Guy can safely come out of the retirement.

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    This of course put the sensor size choices for the Pentax Q and Nikon 1 in a new perspective. None of these guys live in a bubble, and the development must have been going on for a while. In other words: The people at Nikon and Pentax most probably knew very well that this and possibly other new concepts were in the pipeline.

    The Nokia sensor is actually very close in size to the one in Nikon 1. I would be surprised if we don't see f/0.7 standard lenses for these small formats from the likes of Voigtlander and SLR Magic within 2-3 years. Although that will still not make them medium format cameras, it will be very interesting to see the images that can be created with such a combination.

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    This of course put the sensor size choices for the Pentax Q and Nikon 1 in a new perspective. None of these guys live in a bubble, and the development must have been going on for a while. In other words: The people at Nikon and Pentax most probably knew very well that this and possibly other new concepts were in the pipeline.

    The Nokia sensor is actually very close in size to the one in Nikon 1. I would be surprised if we don't see f/0.7 standard lenses for these small formats from the likes of Voigtlander and SLR Magic within 2-3 years. Although that will still not make them medium format cameras, it will be very interesting to see the images that can be created with such a combination.
    I thought it was a Sony sensor.

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    I thought it was a Sony sensor.
    I'm thinking about the future perspective of these formats.

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    "Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?"

    Yes, of course it does. I knew the new Nikon was a lemon... never figured I will be selling my Leaf back so soon. It is all about how many mega pixels of course. With tne Nokia I can afford getting 8 x camera phones to mount on a bracket and stitch, remaining money from my Leaf will go to the bank.

    Of course! This is great!!! \\


    (Yair, I am lying in above )

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Of course we all know that this phone will not be a substitute for a decent medium format back. I apologize for setting up this trap question, but I think this shows very clearly that innovation right now reaches a point that makes all other not REALLY innovating companies look very pale soon.
    The idea of just replacing a film magazine with a digital sensor was very smart 18 years ago. Now it´s time for something new.

    regards
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    Senior Member Thierry's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I just retired.
    LOL

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    I just had a thought:
    "Siri, go out and take some great moody landscapes for me, choose the best one, colour and curve correct it then have it printed 40" wide, mounted on aluminium and brought round. I'll be waiting. "
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Siri: OK. I've located three photographers in your vicinity. The closest is 0.0 miles from you.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Siri: OK. I've located three photographers in your vicinity. The closest is 0.0 miles from you.
    You are one smart guy!

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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    Personally I think this is a better approach to solving the zoom problem on camera phones.
    Ctein had an interesting article on this..

    Not sure the camera is enough to save Nokia. Especially if it only runs on Symbian. Most people value other features more than the camera. Current cameras are pretty good and are good enough for most.
    Personally, i think cameras and sensors are only part of a diminishing equation in the mobile photography space. What makes the iPhone stand out is not only the quality of the sensor and lens, but as importantly, the quality of apps that make those images look good, and the ease of which the images can be shared.
    My images on 500px : http://500px.com/ghoonk
    H4D-40 | Xpan | Leica M9P | Leica M Monochrom | X100 | Hasselblad 500CM | 501CM | 503CXi

  47. #47
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    We all suddenly became dinosaurs!

    So when the new kids shuffle up the ranks of the photography world shooting jobs with these whizzy looking, high tech cameras and we're all still shooting Tech/Mamiya/Blads.

    Just let me reload the flash with gunpowder!

  48. #48
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    We all suddenly became dinosaurs!

    So when the new kids shuffle up the ranks of the photography world shooting jobs with these whizzy looking, high tech cameras and we're all still shooting Tech/Mamiya/Blads.

    Just let me reload the flash with gunpowder!
    But this is a serious danger: remember when Linn, the famous manufacturer of turntables, refused to get in CDs for so long because the fidelity wasn't good enough? They had to give in in the end. And then along comes mp3 and the purists howl whilst 99% of the population gets on with enjoying the convenience. There will always be a place for ultimate quality but it can be a very very small place commercially and probably more popular with enthusiasts than with the marketplace...

  49. #49
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    But this is a serious danger: remember when Linn, the famous manufacturer of turntables, refused to get in CDs for so long because the fidelity wasn't good enough? They had to give in in the end. And then along comes mp3 and the purists howl whilst 99% of the population gets on with enjoying the convenience. There will always be a place for ultimate quality but it can be a very very small place commercially and probably more popular with enthusiasts than with the marketplace...
    And what a fine player the Karik/Numeric was and something I still own.

    I have noticed that marketing departments of some large respectable companies is getting younger and younger. It may be quite a few years off but eventually I'm sure the youth won't see the need/benefit of the ultimate.

  50. #50
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Does 41 Mpix count as Medium format ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Of course we all know that this phone will not be a substitute for a decent medium format back. I apologize for setting up this trap question, but I think this shows very clearly that innovation right now reaches a point that makes all other not REALLY innovating companies look very pale soon.
    The idea of just replacing a film magazine with a digital sensor was very smart 18 years ago. Now it´s time for something new.

    regards
    Stefan
    Geez, now you tell us Stefan. I kept looking for the right adapter/mount on your website for the Hcam, and kept wondering what type of calling plan could Stefan offer me....


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