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Digital Medium Format pricing

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Short story I am 55 years old and my son is 14 years old. He wanted a dirt bike to ride. Well being a nice guy I went and bought him a nice used dirt bike because when I was a kid I saved up my money and bought one too. It was a great growing up experience. i take him over to a friends house that has a big backyard track and watching him trying to learn a clutch and 5 speed motorcycle a very hard task of good coordination to master. I see him almost hit a tree as i am watching this kid try his hardest. I realize the only real way to teach this child is actually be nearby on the trail with him. What good is it if i am standing two miles behind him, I can't teach him anything. So here I am at 55 years old out of shape and riding a dirt bike that I had to buy for me. Is this sane no freaking way is it sane. I already broke one rib in a fall and I am still on the damn thing and frankly having the time of my life and spending time with my kid. Thats priceless folks no matter how stupid of me to even dare get on one at my age and about the least sane thing i could do , the next fall I may not get up that easily. Now it maybe not smart, not sane and just flat out stupid of me. But you buy what you want and you live your life. Well hopefully I will survive this. LOL
 

stephengilbert

Active member
Ken,

That's a really insulting smiley. Are you suggesting that there's something funny about Guy on a dirt bike? :wtf:

Steve
 

JorisV

New member
It should not reflect poorly on Leaf or Phase One that the Hy6 project is not going forward with 100% of their support.
With all due respect it kind of does. You cannot claim to fully embrace open systems if you do not support the one and only other open system that is out there. Especially from the de facto monopoly position that Phase One currently has it makes the whole open systems rhetoric sound rather false and opportunistic. Just my personal opinion. That being said, I don't believe support from Phase One is really needed. The Leaf backs with the rotating sensor and the tilt display seem to support the Hy6 very well. I just wish that Leaf also made the smaller backs available again in AFi mount so that there was an easier and cheaper entry level.

I also will say that as much as I like the Hy6 (and everyone I've ever shown it to likes it), I feel strongly there is room for improvement.
I don't disagree here but give it one more revision of the auto focus and add the upcoming wide angle AFD 35mm lens to the already fantastic ergonomics and it becomes pretty awesome... It is perfectly possible that Phase One/Mamiya improves on it but it remains to be seen first.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I can definitely see the point of a backup, but just because someone might use a DF as their main camera, do they really need another DF as a backup? Call me crazy but wouldn't an AFD or AFD II get a person through a technical failure in a pinch? I got my AFD with 80mm lens and film back for $750, it works great as my main camera. I don't see why anyone would need the latest and greatest just for a back up.
Btw, if you have LS lenses, then yes you need a DF for your backup solution to use those lenses. Otherwise, you are correct that an AFD II is a very viable solution for non-LS glass.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
Ken,

That's a really insulting smiley. Are you suggesting that there's something funny about Guy on a dirt bike? :wtf:

Steve
Oh hell no, Steve---not insulting, but funny in a brotherly way. I used to ride motorcycles too (way before middle-age set in), so completely feel that jarring pain that Guy is going through on a dirt bike. It's a total rush and a lotta fun, until those aching muscles and sore back starts setting in...

;)
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
:OT:
But while we'e on motorcycles: Many years ago I was looking for a new hobby. One friend suggested motorcycles. In two visits to dealers, I dropped two bikes, one through a plate glass window.:angry::cussing:

I took up the cello.
:ROTFL:

--Matt
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Too funny and yes wake up really sore this stuff is for youngsters, not sure what I am thinking. If at all. LOL
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
With all due respect it kind of does. You cannot claim to fully embrace open systems if you do not support the one and only other open system that is out there. Especially from the de facto monopoly position that Phase One currently has it makes the whole open systems rhetoric sound rather false and opportunistic. Just my personal opinion. That being said, I don't believe support from Phase One is really needed. The Leaf backs with the rotating sensor and the tilt display seem to support the Hy6 very well. I just wish that Leaf also made the smaller backs available again in AFi mount so that there was an easier and cheaper entry level.



I don't disagree here but give it one more revision of the auto focus and add the upcoming wide angle AFD 35mm lens to the already fantastic ergonomics and it becomes pretty awesome... It is perfectly possible that Phase One/Mamiya improves on it but it remains to be seen first.

Hi Joris - we'll agree on some things and disagree on others. I don't think it's as simple as whether Phase One supports a 3rd party camera or not. If you consider that a false statement in terms of "open platform", that is your perogative. Open platform was never really trumpeted until Hasselblad closed theirs. So, I've always considered it opportunistic. That much is pretty obvious.

But not choosing to produce a compatible digital back for a 3rd party platform doesn't automatically make that claim false. Why would Phase One not produce a digital back for the Hy6? At the time of development and imminent release, Hasselblad had already begun their proprietary path, and this was still a good 2-3 years before the Mamiya investment by Phase One. They continued to make digital backs for Contax, and for Hasselblad H and V, and Mamiya. It begs the question why they wouldn't for make it for Hy6.

Perhaps they looked more closely at the financials of the company, as well as the likelihood of extremely slow to market production of lenses, etc, and foresaw trouble and as a result chose to not pony up to the bar. Any calling on the carpet for Phase One in terms of the Hy6 has to be taken into account back then. Their decision at this stage to not invest is simply based on the fact they have already charted their path with a different platform and don't see it as smart business to divert resources from that endeavor for whatever gains might be gotten with a Hy6 partnership.

Leaf, on the other hand, since they had already bought in from a legacy standpoint, and expended the resources, had no reason to not continue offering solutions for the platform, given that their digital back platform itself remained relatively unchanged.

So my bottom line is - spouting that you're open platform is one thing, but maintaining that philosophy even when it is not in your best financial interests is another.

Yes, the AFi is an awesome camera. If a great 35mm ever makes it to market, well sure that would be nice. Do you want to take any bets whether it comes first to the Phase One platform (no, they don't have a great 35 yet) or the Hy6/AFi? :) I would appreciate a more durable body, multiple focus points, weather sealing, an improved grip, and, oh yes, a complete modern auto focus lens lineup. For starters. I'm being picky, I know, but there is no product on the market I can't see improvements for.


Steve Hendrix
 

JorisV

New member
Yes, the AFi is an awesome camera. If a great 35mm ever makes it to market, well sure that would be nice. Do you want to take any bets whether it comes first to the Phase One platform (no, they don't have a great 35 yet) or the Hy6/AFi? :) I would appreciate a more durable body, multiple focus points, weather sealing, an improved grip, and, oh yes, a complete modern auto focus lens lineup. For starters. I'm being picky, I know, but there is no product on the market I can't see improvements for.
Steve, I would say that you are indeed being very picky, 1 and 3 are for me personally not a priority, I can understand that they are for others though, I have absolutely no need for 2, I am OK with 4 (btw, this one is free as well) and the lenses are awesome in my opinion. BTW, would you also dare to rate the 645DF with the same pickiness?
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Steve, I would say that you are indeed being very picky, 1 and 3 are for me personally not a priority, I can understand that they are for others though, I have absolutely no need for 2, I am OK with 4 (btw, this one is free as well) and the lenses are awesome in my opinion. BTW, would you also dare to rate the 645DF with the same pickiness?

Yes, but Joris, I must provide the best solutions for many photograohers, not just you! :D

Ok, so since you boldly asked (as I knew you would), and just to show you I'm no bs'er, what I would like improved on the DF (and it's actually easier to pick on the DF, isn't it Joris? ;)

I'd like a waist level finder option, and a brighter, larger finder. I'd like better auto focus, multiple points would be nice. I don't have any burning feelings for build quality improvements, except for the battery grip, but then, we have this on the way:

New Ejji Lithium battery for DF

For the DF, I would also like weather sealing, ergonomically improved interface buttons that don't pinch your fingers, standard language (with complete words, sentences would be a bonus) for the custom functions, mirror up with the option to remain up after capture, and sharper wide angle lenses. And a completely revised shutter release mechanism that doesn't travel a mile from top to bottom. Everyone has their own list for the DF, I'm sure.

Of course, that is assuming the DF continues in some form, rather than being replaced by a freshly built from the ground up brand new 645 camera.

Yes, I am picky and critical with lots of products, not just your camera!

By the way, as my lovely wife can attest, I'm not easy to live with....


Steve Hendrix
 

FredBGG

Not Available
So here I am at 55 years old out of shape and riding a dirt bike

LOL
Great minds think alike.

At 49 I bought my son a 125 Dirt bike. Three months later we were both riding customized Yamaha 450 bikes on a 14 day expedition with two motocross track stops during the trip. My life lesson to my son was to buy non functioning 450 bikes and rebuild them together. I showed him how to do it all right. You should have seen his face when after the rebuild the bike fired up on the second kick!

One thing I did though as soon as I knew I was having kids was to make a commitment to keep fit as I suspected what was comming;)
 

Anders_HK

Member
For what it's worth, IMO, the Hy6 is an extremely worthy camera system and I share many of your feelings about it Anders. If it was a wholly owned and controlled (I mean from A to Z) Leaf project from the beginning, then perhaps I could see that making sense. But at that stage, it is quite likely the Mamiya investment by Phase One would not have happened anyway, and we would be discussing a moot point. The fact that the Mamiya investment did happen, should tell you some things. Given that, the road is set.

It should not reflect poorly on Leaf or Phase One that the Hy6 project is not going forward with 100% of their support. It should reflect the reality of the situation - both at the start of the project and where it resides currently. I also will say that as much as I like the Hy6 (and everyone I've ever shown it to likes it), I feel strongly there is room for improvement. And I am optimistic that a new camera will improve on it, and perhaps even employ positive aspects of the existing Hy6 itself. We'll have no way of knowing until a new camera arrives.


Steve Hendrix
If I understand things right, there are business/legal issues (perhaps due also F&H and Sinar involved) that keeps from furthering Hy6. It may also be that Phase One had invested in Mamiya prior to taking on Leaf, in which case not furthering Hy6 would seem like more madness... because indeed it is THE PERFECT system for Leaf backs (tilt screen, rotating sensor). However, when and if for such reasons the intelligent can be to proper to simply look at the superiority of the product and system instead of the other issues at hand. Thus at such realization resolve whatever issues are at hand. For long term that would seem as a better business approach than to base on a system that already has lesser fabrication quality, plastic lenses (including LS that do not look very professional), and yes also lesser quality lens and back mounts!


Hi Joris - we'll agree on some things and disagree on others. I don't think it's as simple as whether Phase One supports a 3rd party camera or not. If you consider that a false statement in terms of "open platform", that is your perogative. Open platform was never really trumpeted until Hasselblad closed theirs. So, I've always considered it opportunistic. That much is pretty obvious.

But not choosing to produce a compatible digital back for a 3rd party platform doesn't automatically make that claim false. Why would Phase One not produce a digital back for the Hy6? At the time of development and imminent release, Hasselblad had already begun their proprietary path, and this was still a good 2-3 years before the Mamiya investment by Phase One. They continued to make digital backs for Contax, and for Hasselblad H and V, and Mamiya. It begs the question why they wouldn't for make it for Hy6.

Perhaps they looked more closely at the financials of the company, as well as the likelihood of extremely slow to market production of lenses, etc, and foresaw trouble and as a result chose to not pony up to the bar. Any calling on the carpet for Phase One in terms of the Hy6 has to be taken into account back then. Their decision at this stage to not invest is simply based on the fact they have already charted their path with a different platform and don't see it as smart business to divert resources from that endeavor for whatever gains might be gotten with a Hy6 partnership.

Leaf, on the other hand, since they had already bought in from a legacy standpoint, and expended the resources, had no reason to not continue offering solutions for the platform, given that their digital back platform itself remained relatively unchanged.

So my bottom line is - spouting that you're open platform is one thing, but maintaining that philosophy even when it is not in your best financial interests is another.

Yes, the AFi is an awesome camera. If a great 35mm ever makes it to market, well sure that would be nice. Do you want to take any bets whether it comes first to the Phase One platform (no, they don't have a great 35 yet) or the Hy6/AFi? :) I would appreciate a more durable body, multiple focus points, weather sealing, an improved grip, and, oh yes, a complete modern auto focus lens lineup. For starters. I'm being picky, I know, but there is no product on the market I can't see improvements for.


Steve Hendrix
I agree with Joris. It is certainly a very odd and dubvious double standard to make a law suite against Hassy for closed system, but to not provide backs for a system (Hy6) that one holds the rights to through Leaf...


The Canon 5D mark II is a complete body with sensor, better autofocus, AUTO FOCUS THAT CAN BE USER CALIBRATED and shoots video.
The AF on Hy6 can be user calibrated :salute:. I had focus problems with Mamiya AFDIII which was a pina, however with Hy6 have never had need to calibrate. The focus is very very VERY precise. AF is slower than a DSLR but very precise indeed. Not only that, compared to AFDIII the manual focus is a breeze because very exact indications. With AFDIII one have to guess by turning until left triangle comes on, then onwards until right comes on, then turning back midway between... a.k.a. madness in use. DF apparent has a beeb indication (which would justify to spend $$$$ on upgrade for marginal feature).


Thus, if I bring it back to the OP of medium format pricing, pricing and upgrade pricing along with focus problems etc with Mamiya 645 was why I gave up on Mamiya. Why do I need to pay same price as seemingly Hasselblad and Rollei for lenses made to lesser quality in Japan where cost is lower to produce??? Digital from Japan (count Mamiya, Canon, Nikon etc) seem to be pushing for upgrades. Mamiya seem no difference, with AFD, AFDIII, DF etc... so if I would have spent $$ on a DF, it would have led me to later upgrade to the new unannounced better camera which would have cost me no less $$$ than going Hy6. What Hy6 offered was the best on market already today, and I frank do not see ANYTHING on the Hy6 camera I would wish improved. My plan has been to get an Alpa also... but... it has been delayed due one reason that I simply enjoy using the Hy6 much beyond my expectations.

If there is one thing that I can bring fourth as can be viewed as negative with the Hy6 system, it is that the new Rollei lenses do cost alot $$$. The second is that the best ones ones 110/2, 180/2.8, 50/2.8 also weight much. Those are actually to me good negatives, since they keep me from adding lenses and not spending $$$ or adding weight to my bag. I only have a used 50/FLE and the 80/2.8 Xenotar AFD, but I enjoy the latter so much that I barely use the 50! It makes also simple and light weight to carry in a small camera bag on shoulder... It makes me feel free and not tied down by gear (or upgrades)!!!!!! So much for medium format pricing ... :D

Best regards
Anders
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
If I understand things right, there are business/legal issues (perhaps due also F&H and Sinar involved) that keeps from furthering Hy6. It may also be that Phase One had invested in Mamiya prior to taking on Leaf, in which case not furthering Hy6 would seem like more madness... because indeed it is THE PERFECT system for Leaf backs (tilt screen, rotating sensor). However, when and if for such reasons the intelligent can be to proper to simply look at the superiority of the product and system instead of the other issues at hand. Thus at such realization resolve whatever issues are at hand. For long term that would seem as a better business approach than to base on a system that already has lesser fabrication quality, plastic lenses (including LS that do not look very professional), and yes also lesser quality lens and back mounts!
Don't agree. Just because a system is deemed superior by many, doesn't make it the best path forward. As you acknowledge, there are business and financial issues. For a company to choose to disregard those issues seems foolish. I also don't agree on your assessment of the LS lenses. If they're not built like tanks, they also do not weigh as much as tanks. I would agree the older Mamiya lenses were plasticky, but I don't agree on the newer lenses. If so, it's by a matter of degrees. Honestly, if you're talking about plasticky, the Hy6 body comes into the line of fire also.

I agree with Joris. It is certainly a very odd and dubvious double standard to make a law suite against Hassy for closed system, but to not provide backs for a system (Hy6) that one holds the rights to through Leaf...

Best regards
Anders
I'm not really disagreeing, just that it's kind of a moot point, but noted that you kind of leave unanswered the same question I do. Which leaves me to conclude they have their reasons - as is their right. I've always considered the "open platform" stance an opportunistic one, so, for what that's worth, yes, it flies in the face of their marketing. I'd rather they focus on making good business decisions that maintain and enhance profitability and continued technical development. Though, I'd prefer they excel at the marketing end also....


Steve Hendrix
 

david distefano

New member
The megapixel count alone does not determine the cost (or quality) of a sensor.

A similar structure is in place with medium format. Traditionally, it was:

Medium Format Good: $20K
Medium Format Better: $25K
Medium Format Best: $30K

Until the P65+, this was the maintained pricing hierarchical structure for at least several generations prior.

With digital technology, these pricing structures will change and adjust, but will still generally stay in place for perhaps 2-3 generations, after which point it is natural that either changing costs (can be lower or higher), as well as developmental advancements will disrupt these structures. This is potentially occurring now with Canon/Nikon and has already happened with Phase One/Leaf.
Steve Hendrix
my question here is: the hasselblad cfv-50 is priced at $16995. it does not have all the bells and whistles of the p65 and its pixel size is the same and it does have one other advantage for me over the p65, its sensor size, it is slightly smaller. i could mount the cfv-50 on my arca-swiss 6x9 and use a schneider 24mm digitar lens but i couldn't with the p65. even a refurbished p65 is more than a new cfv-50. the above price structure is basically saying the cfv-50 is low end by hasselblads pricing structure when compared to the p65. is the p65 price higher because it cost more to produce a larger sensor and its extra bells and whistles? excluding the bells and whistles how is image quality between the two backs when used with zeiss lenses in particular and large format lenses in general. hasn't hasselblad tried to keep the medium format digital within reach of those who want mfd but see $25/$45,000 just way out of line for the majority of mf users. with so many 50(x) type camera bodies out in the hands of people like me i think ( even though hasselblad doesn't want to but its money in their pocket and the h series looks so ugly imo) hasselblad will come out with a cfv-60 (which would equal a 72mp on a p65 sensor size) at less than $20,000, with the same sensor size as the cfv-50 so it can be used on cameras like the arca-swiss and the schneider and/or rodenstock digital lenses that the larger sensor phase one digital backs can not. the cfv-39 was priced at $13999 cfv-50 at $16999 why not a cfv-60 at $19999.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
my question here is: the hasselblad cfv-50 is priced at $16995. it does not have all the bells and whistles of the p65 and its pixel size is the same and it does have one other advantage for me over the p65, its sensor size, it is slightly smaller. i could mount the cfv-50 on my arca-swiss 6x9 and use a schneider 24mm digitar lens but i couldn't with the p65. even a refurbished p65 is more than a new cfv-50. the above price structure is basically saying the cfv-50 is low end by hasselblads pricing structure when compared to the p65. is the p65 price higher because it cost more to produce a larger sensor and its extra bells and whistles? excluding the bells and whistles how is image quality between the two backs when used with zeiss lenses in particular and large format lenses in general. hasn't hasselblad tried to keep the medium format digital within reach of those who want mfd but see $25/$45,000 just way out of line for the majority of mf users. with so many 50(x) type camera bodies out in the hands of people like me i think ( even though hasselblad doesn't want to but its money in their pocket and the h series looks so ugly imo) hasselblad will come out with a cfv-60 (which would equal a 72mp on a p65 sensor size) at less than $20,000, with the same sensor size as the cfv-50 so it can be used on cameras like the arca-swiss and the schneider and/or rodenstock digital lenses that the larger sensor phase one digital backs can not. the cfv-39 was priced at $13999 cfv-50 at $16999 why not a cfv-60 at $19999.

David, it is impossible to really know everything that is taken into account when it comes to product pricing from a manufacturer. Does a client know why one photographer is more expensive than another? The P65+ costs more than the CFV-50 because it has been determined by Phase One that to obtain the desired profits based on the projected unit sales, the P65+ needs to be priced at X. Hasselblad did the same process when evaluating the CFV-50 product pricing. Does this mean Hasselblad doesn't feel they need to make as much profit as Phase One? No, of course not. They also sell the same size sensor used in the P65+ with a camera kit for $3,000 more than Phase One.

Pricing these solutions is not an arbitrary process. It is the same process any manufacturer goes through, raw and development costs, factored by time to market, projected unit sales and impact upon hard costs at launch and completed ramp up, factored by changing supplier costs, marketing initiatives and support, strategic positioning based on market response, factored by entire product lineup and product road map projected out X number of years, etc, etc.

There's lots of options for the Hasselblad V Series platform, unfortunately the largest sensors do come at a premium. But shy of budget-friendliness, there are great options for a Hasselblad V system -

*Hasselblad CFV - same styling as the camera and no sync cable is required, but no larger size options past 49x37 and 50mp currently.

*Phase One - requires a sync cable, but can be rotated to shoot vertically or horizontally, and available in 54x41 sensor sizes at 60mp/80mp.

*Leaf - requires a sync cable, but on the larger sensor models (56mp/80mp), there is an internal rotating sensor (so the back can be shot in vertical or horizontal orientation without exposing the sensor to the elements), and also features in-camera file cropping (including square format).

And many budget-friendly options with relatively large sensor sizes (49x37) at various megapixel counts and prices that can range from $7,900 - $19,990 for a new kit (not to mention pre-owned/demo/refurb, etc).


Steve Hendrix
 

djonesii

Workshop Member
:OT:
But while we'e on motorcycles: Many years ago I was looking for a new hobby. One friend suggested motorcycles. In two visits to dealers, I dropped two bikes, one through a plate glass window.:angry::cussing:

I took up the cello.
:ROTFL:

--Matt

Some things stay the same I guess......

I'd still think real seriously about the Cambo/Arca though. No Honda Rash potential.

and to second Ken .... Guy we need photos!

Dave
 
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